With the impending destruction of shadow form and 600/smiting creeping ever closer, i suggest reverting Ursan too what is once was, (energy every time your are hit or hit someone) but to give it a huge recharge of like 300seconds.
Ursan did NOTHING like shadow form could - A DoASC could never be done in 40 minutes with Ursan - like with shadowform.
An UWSC Could never have been done is 7 minutes with ursan - like the world record with shadow form stands.
All ursan did was allow ALL professions (regardless) to farm, took a lot more skill not to die than shadow form.
Ursan Relating to Shadow Form and 600/Smiting
Dobermann
Killerminds
Stop the bad troll threads
And as for the more skill than shadow form thing, SF requires -5 skill and Ursan requires 0.
And as for the more skill than shadow form thing, SF requires -5 skill and Ursan requires 0.
Dobermann
Please explain how this is a troll thread?
I considered this a very sensible thread with my humble opinion on what should be done..
I considered this a very sensible thread with my humble opinion on what should be done..
lishi
Wait, lets see the logic here
normal power level limit 50
Ursan power level 100
Shadow form power level 150
Ursan power level was too high, so it got nerfed.
Shadow form power level is no good so it will be nerfed.
So how after concluding that a power level of 150 is not a good thing a power level of 100 became ok?
Now, i do realize you think going 100 is ok, but you are trying to convice anet.
normal power level limit 50
Ursan power level 100
Shadow form power level 150
Ursan power level was too high, so it got nerfed.
Shadow form power level is no good so it will be nerfed.
So how after concluding that a power level of 150 is not a good thing a power level of 100 became ok?
Now, i do realize you think going 100 is ok, but you are trying to convice anet.
Cuilan
You can Arcane Mimicry Assassin's Promise to have the team maintain Ursan.
I want to play the game, not be forced into builds. If Ursan makes a comeback, I will quit the game again.
I want to play the game, not be forced into builds. If Ursan makes a comeback, I will quit the game again.
Steps_Descending
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lishi
normal power level limit 50
Ursan power level 100 Shadow form power level 150 Ursan power level was too high, so it got nerfed. |
So, do we want to bring an old and less-broken-than-SF meta back or risk a new neta with normal skills and hopefully a lot fewer godlike-OP skills? BTW, what really OP skills are left : Obsi? it's strong but the movement penalty makes awesome but (kinda) impratical. SY? Last I heard it was strong, but only against non-assa-physicals/elems/rits and was used in balanced so no one hates it yet. Ether Renewal? That one will be nerfed or make it's way into the meta one way or another, I think. Spiritway-like? Are they really powerfull enough to be OP?
I see only one SF-level-of-problematicness skill in that : ER. And while it's as powerful as SF/UB, those 2 could be stacked, but I don't think we'll see 6ERelem-team anytime soon. But then again I could be very wrong My vote is for a new meta.
own age myname
I miss Ursan. Even still, it can still be played to a viable level, I don't know why people don't play it (I saw a build on it with an oath shot spammer awhile back). I still never got the arguments against Ursan. It allowed the average player to get into the elite areas. But, greedy bastards who hoard ectos/ambraces/any highend item, don't want to lose their virtual cash -.-
Reformed
I'd really prefer Ursan stayed gone but at this point does it matter?
On the plus side it was very forgiving and encouraged the most PuG play I've seen since the good old days. Under Ursan though bad players stayed bad because they weren't encouraged to learn the basics. Most groups couldn't even figure out how to chain KDs let alone bodyblock correctly with 6 frontliners (think about that). Those same people still play GW and really shouldn't be in the Elites if they don't understand aggro control you learn in the first 5 minutes of the game.
On the plus side it was very forgiving and encouraged the most PuG play I've seen since the good old days. Under Ursan though bad players stayed bad because they weren't encouraged to learn the basics. Most groups couldn't even figure out how to chain KDs let alone bodyblock correctly with 6 frontliners (think about that). Those same people still play GW and really shouldn't be in the Elites if they don't understand aggro control you learn in the first 5 minutes of the game.
Desert Rose
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lishi
Ursan power level 100
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Skill required to play Ursan - 0
Skill required to play Ursan after nerf - 1
Ursan is nearly as powerful as it was before the "nerf", people are just too dumb to realise this.
Shayne Hawke
Guild Wars is a game of ten professions, not one.
/nothanks
/nothanks
Damian Manson
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
Guild Wars is a game of ten professions, not one.
/nothanks |
there is one thing i will also agree with and that is ursan did promote some pug play but most of the time it was a rank fest so was not worth it
and not the most user friendly if you were of lower ranks. Anyways good day all and have fun with the rest of the discussion 
Morphy
Who cares. PvE sux anyway.
Gennadios
When my guildies and I first beat UW, most of us were playing for around two years and it was the most profound sense of accomplishment to be had in GW.
There is some part of "Elite Mission" that people don't seem to comprehend, It's not meant to be completed by a hoard of peasants.
There is some part of "Elite Mission" that people don't seem to comprehend, It's not meant to be completed by a hoard of peasants.
Marzipan Marci
The problem with ursan was it wasn't class-specific. Every profession could use it. We don't want this. Just nerf everything and let's play a fair balanced game. XD just kidding, this game will never be balanced.
/Noobthread
/Noobthread
Goddess Of Defense
Ursan actually opened up pug groups again, people don't realize this because they thought it was over powered. It got random people to actually work as a team, to do something they wanted. People could actually do something because the skill was relatively easy to go and get. The problem being is that people wanted r10 to do all the really fun stuff. Now the fun stuff is strictly moved to only what 3 classes allowed? out of the 10 someone suggested we have? Ursan allowed all 10 classes to do something regardless of what skills brought because only 1 skill allowed them to work as a team, not including the healing cookie cutter monks. (that's a different argument) On the brighter hand without Ursan some things put out jobs that people can now run instead of forming a pug and fight their way through... still doesn't bring the players together, now all they do is argue, troll, talk garbage, and play e-peen.
< /valid point >
< /valid point >
Killerminds
kk how bout instead of fixing Ursan they just fix meta.
MagmaRed
PUGs are bad. Haven't always been, but they have been for a LONG time. The reason is people have stopped learning how to play. With the addition of heroes and over powered builds that require little interaction from the player, even a monkey can play PvE effectively. If you want to play with all 10 classes and be effective you do not look for PUGs, but you use guild/alliance/friends.
Doberman, you failed to present a good reason to bring Ursan back. You state that it allows all 10 classes to FARM, yet the game is not about farming. Yes, many people farm for various reasons, and always will. But changing skills to help people farm is not how the game should be run. Skill changes should be made to balance PvP or to make PvE more fun/interesting. On occassion, skills have been nerfed/buffed for PvE to 'fix' problems, but the ability to farm should not be a reason to change a skill. The only skill change that should be made in regards to farming is when a skill allows things to be done too easily/fast to disrupt the economy or game play.
Ursan in its current form, in my opinion, is well balanced. It actually takes some skill to use it effectively now, and is not super powerful anymore.
Doberman, you failed to present a good reason to bring Ursan back. You state that it allows all 10 classes to FARM, yet the game is not about farming. Yes, many people farm for various reasons, and always will. But changing skills to help people farm is not how the game should be run. Skill changes should be made to balance PvP or to make PvE more fun/interesting. On occassion, skills have been nerfed/buffed for PvE to 'fix' problems, but the ability to farm should not be a reason to change a skill. The only skill change that should be made in regards to farming is when a skill allows things to be done too easily/fast to disrupt the economy or game play.
Ursan in its current form, in my opinion, is well balanced. It actually takes some skill to use it effectively now, and is not super powerful anymore.
MisterB
Ursan doesn't need a buff, but PuGs do.
I'm curious what the reasoning is behind giving Ursan a 300 second recharge.
For my opinion on the topic of Ursan Blessing, see Shayne Hawke's post.
Addendum: There were actually 2 classes, U/lolwut and Mo/.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Desert Rose
Ursan is nearly as powerful as it was before the "nerf", people are just too dumb to realise this.
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For my opinion on the topic of Ursan Blessing, see Shayne Hawke's post.
Addendum: There were actually 2 classes, U/lolwut and Mo/.
Arduin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Goddess Of Defense
Ursan actually opened up pug groups again, people don't realize this because they thought it was over powered. It got random people to actually work as a team, to do something they wanted.
|
There was no synergy between the Ursans other than the shout being applied to team-members. Perhaps knocklocking on tough groups, but there the team ends.
That's why it worked so well. 8 random pugs could kill anything, because everyones job was that easy, you didn't need teamwork, other than staying in proximity of each other.
The Abuzer
Man, think a little at a thing:
-SF can be kept with only the assassin profession.
-A case can be the old uwsc with 7 sins and a necro
-Ursan can be kept with ANY profession.
-Result: even pve unwanted professions (mes for example) can do a team and start to play with other players.
Conclusion:
-Sf make a dominant class witch makes unbalanced gaps in professions(for example a guy which like mesmers but can't be part of a team), instead it, ursan can make everybody enter a team.
NOTE: Sorry 'bout saying the mes are not wanted in pve, didn't remembered another profession that isnt used for farming.
-SF can be kept with only the assassin profession.
-A case can be the old uwsc with 7 sins and a necro
-Ursan can be kept with ANY profession.
-Result: even pve unwanted professions (mes for example) can do a team and start to play with other players.
Conclusion:
-Sf make a dominant class witch makes unbalanced gaps in professions(for example a guy which like mesmers but can't be part of a team), instead it, ursan can make everybody enter a team.
NOTE: Sorry 'bout saying the mes are not wanted in pve, didn't remembered another profession that isnt used for farming.
Zahr Dalsk
Those of us who play (or played for a long time) the unwanted professions tend to prefer H/H anyways. Buff heroes. Give them PvE skills. Raise the limit.
Team Spirit
I like the fact that Ursan Blessing made every class able to join group for farming, and openning PUG teams. One of my favorite skill, bring it on.
Killerminds
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Team Spirit
I like the fact that Ursan Blessing made every class able to join group for farming, and openning PUG teams. One of my favorite skill, bring it on.
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mathiastemplar
What do you need Ursan for anyways.. There are lots of stronger builds..
/nothanks Ursan...
gg
/nothanks Ursan...
gg
Dobermann
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MisterB
Ursan doesn't need a buff, but PuGs do.
I'm curious what the reasoning is behind giving Ursan a 300 second recharge. For my opinion on the topic of Ursan Blessing, see Shayne Hawke's post. Addendum: There were actually 2 classes, U/lolwut and Mo/. |
I would like to see ursan return because sadly i never had high enough ranks on other chars and now the only way ive ever seen the uw is behind a perma, ive never seen what the monsters there are TRULY capable of, because 99% of skills are negated by shadowform.
bsoltan
I agree with everyone saying that if you want 1 PvE skill to be buffed so all professions use the same skill for doing everything the answer is to work on the other skills that make each professions individual and allow them to play on that level.
Giving everyone a press 123 'god' mode isn't the answer to anything and certainly won't help the game.
Giving everyone a press 123 'god' mode isn't the answer to anything and certainly won't help the game.
Skawtt
I remember long ago when people used to form balanced groups.
reaper with no name
Ursan suffers from a similar problem as SF; it removes the purpose of playing certain professions.
There was absolutely no benefit to be, say, a Ritualist or Mesmer Ursan. A Necromancer Ursan was better in every way. Warriors and Rangers also had advantages that other Ursans lacked, without anything to balance it out.
Ursan didn't remove class discrimination; it made it worse.
There was absolutely no benefit to be, say, a Ritualist or Mesmer Ursan. A Necromancer Ursan was better in every way. Warriors and Rangers also had advantages that other Ursans lacked, without anything to balance it out.
Ursan didn't remove class discrimination; it made it worse.
Steps_Descending
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Desert Rose
Ursan is nearly as powerful as it was before the "nerf", people are just too dumb to realise this. |
They changed the armor, on a warrior, a 80 al is quadruple damage from al-affected source. That one probably made it a lot weaker in certain zones.
THey changed the duration, the best part of the nerf : it doeesn't weaken the skill, but it makes it impratical. You have a couple more loops to jump through before using it. Or you have severe and not-so-controllable downtimes.
Looking back, ursan got one of the best nerf ANet did.
Lishy
Last I recalled people only wanted Paragons to be ursan because of the infinite energy..
maxxfury
I take ursan for a laugh sometimes on trip with guildies. Its funm in an odd kind of way.
Tho id much rather see every class be balanced in such a way that they all have a place in a party in their own unique way. LOL ill be waiting a long time eh? :P
Ursanway way broken, less broken than sf (with or without cryway before that was nerfed too) but still needed to be shit canned. Gone for the better.
Tho id much rather see every class be balanced in such a way that they all have a place in a party in their own unique way. LOL ill be waiting a long time eh? :P
Ursanway way broken, less broken than sf (with or without cryway before that was nerfed too) but still needed to be shit canned. Gone for the better.
jazilla
It makes me laugh to see people all angry that ANET decided to make this game accessible to a lot of people with the introduction of PvE only skills. It's simple: You want to run builds that are more balanced but make the game harder to complete? Then run it old school. What do you care if people you consider "noobs" are running SF/600/Ursan? You don't have to. They made EOTN with everyone in mind.
Steps_Descending
EDIT : maxfury said it all.
It makes me laugh to see people not getting that the meta is dictated by PuGs, and thus will alway use the path of least resistance, which mean the most easy/OP/godmode skill. So, yeah: we HAVE to. Some people would rather not play with people in a meta made for idiots. Wait! not true : Some people would rather not play with people in a meta made for lazy/greedy or just plain bad.
REEDIT : there's also the fact that there IS a problem when the easiest path also weilds the most reward. Another point that says we have to.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jazilla
What do you care if people you consider "noobs" are running SF/600/Ursan? You don't have to. They made EOTN with everyone in mind.
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REEDIT : there's also the fact that there IS a problem when the easiest path also weilds the most reward. Another point that says we have to.
jazilla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Steps_Descending
EDIT : maxfury said it all.
It makes me laugh to see people not getting that the meta is dictated by PuGs, and thus will alway use the path of least resistance, which mean the most easy/OP/godmode skill. So, yeah: we HAVE to. Some people would rather not play with people in a meta made for idiots. Wait! not true : Some people would rather not play with people in a meta made for lazy/greedy or just plain bad. REEDIT : there's also the fact that there IS a problem when the easiest path also weilds the most reward. Another point that says we have to. |
Life Bringing
K, so Ursan was infinitely more broken than SF ever was. For one, any standard ursan group could roll through any elite area with no preparation, no knowledge of the area, and a trained monkey rolling their face across the keyboard. SF, while being OP, actually takes some degree of knowledge, strategy, and team composition to clear shit.
You say Ursan eliminated class discrimination, except that's bullshit. The only classes taken into the better Ursan groups were warriors, paragons, sometimes rangers, and monks. Stacked on class discrimination was rank discrimination. If you didnt have 10/8, you weren't getting into a DoA group. Hell, even the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing NPF had a rank discrimination.
You say Ursan eliminated class discrimination, except that's bullshit. The only classes taken into the better Ursan groups were warriors, paragons, sometimes rangers, and monks. Stacked on class discrimination was rank discrimination. If you didnt have 10/8, you weren't getting into a DoA group. Hell, even the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing NPF had a rank discrimination.
Beverly heals
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Those of us who play (or played for a long time) the unwanted professions tend to prefer H/H anyways. Buff heroes. Give them PvE skills. Raise the limit.
|
Ursan is still good the way it is. The only good point about was that the only discrimination while pugging was your Norn rank.
Today, according to some ppl (well most of it) nothing can be done without a SF sin.
In general PVE skills become too cheated. PI for instance is too powerful and should be limited to 1 character per group. 1 shooting a boss (with smart placement and use of course) is lame.
Ursan was nerfed because of it was at the origin of "speed clears"... now only SF is still keeping this going.
You cannot Sc anything as a 600/smite (i mean by that , 11mins runs in fow or anything).
So to conclude SF should be re-touched...
and some PVE skills too
the_jos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
You say Ursan eliminated class discrimination, except that's bullshit. The only classes taken into the better Ursan groups were warriors, paragons, sometimes rangers, and monks. Stacked on class discrimination was rank discrimination. If you didnt have 10/8, you weren't getting into a DoA group. Hell, even the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing NPF had a rank discrimination.
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You speak about 'the better Ursan groups', which can go two ways.
The first and small group are the group of very good players who abuse game mechanics. They don't need Ursan to do stuff, they can play without it. For them Ursan only speed up the process.
Then there was the large group of PUG players. Those players at first would accept about every profession but would at later time 'demand' certain classes and high ranks.
The problem began when DoA and other areas were not only played anymore, but mainly farmed. And in farming speed is everything. Being as failsafe as possible while having good speed is what counts.
You see the same now with SF. It's not about gameplay, it's about farming.
Players with regular builds always had problem to enter the high-end areas, entering with a farming build was and is much easier.
Many players don't see this. They see people 'play' the area and they are unable to access the teams. They are told to get other professions, other builds. This makes them talk about discrimination, everyone should be able to enter.
However, we've also seen what happens if the farming teams move on. Empty outposts. But at least you don't see any more discrimination ....
If people want an environment where they can play without (much) discrimination they should find themself a nice group of friends or a decent guild. There is no way PUG play will be without discrimination, specially in farming areas.
Milennin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MagmaRed
PUGs are bad. Haven't always been, but they have been for a LONG time. The reason is people have stopped learning how to play. With the addition of heroes and over powered builds that require little interaction from the player, even a monkey can play PvE effectively. If you want to play with all 10 classes and be effective you do not look for PUGs, but you use guild/alliance/friends.
|
Dobermann
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
K, so Ursan was infinitely more broken than SF ever was. For one, any standard ursan group could roll through any elite area with no preparation, no knowledge of the area, and a trained monkey rolling their face across the keyboard. SF, while being OP, actually takes some degree of knowledge, strategy, and team composition to clear shit.
You say Ursan eliminated class discrimination, except that's bullshit. The only classes taken into the better Ursan groups were warriors, paragons, sometimes rangers, and monks. Stacked on class discrimination was rank discrimination. If you didnt have 10/8, you weren't getting into a DoA group. Hell, even the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing NPF had a rank discrimination. |
Zahr Dalsk
Quote:
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Originally Posted by the_jos
If people want an environment where they can play without (much) discrimination they should find themself a nice group of friends or a decent guild. There is no way PUG play will be without discrimination, specially in farming areas.
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2) Does them at times that are viable for you.
3) Is someone you can get along with.
Pick two.
It wasn't always this way, but that was when Guild Wars was alive.
Heroes, by the way, get all three, and would solve this little problem completely, but ArenaNet still sees fit to limit the amount we can bring and not permit PvE skills on them.