Issue: Builds abusing this to fuel melee style builds.
Fix: Remove attack skills from the list.
Not hard. PvE/P split to keep PvE-ers from whining.
NOTE: Ranger Attack Skills are obviously unaffected by this nerf. Anyone who has the capability to read would have seen this the moment they saw Expertise's description: it clearly states that all Ranger skills are affected. Removing Attack Skills from the list would not remove that.
Expertise
Morphy
DBMan
Taking out Expert in Expertise, eh?
Sharkinu
There is no primay artribute with PvE/PvP split. Why now? Why only rangers?
/not signed
/not signed
Xenex Xclame
LAWL, so rangers would only be allowed to use preperations and stances?
You forgot that rangers also have attack skills,you know things like Disctracing Shot.....
You forgot that rangers also have attack skills,you know things like Disctracing Shot.....
Shriketalon
Will you also make the energy gained from E Storage and Soul Reaping apply only to elementalist and necromancer spells, respectively, have Fast Casting only impact Mesmer abilities, remove the boost to bone minions from Soul Reaping, make Critical Strikes only impact daggers, stop Leadership from drawing on warrior shouts, and make Dervish enchantments the only ones that impact Mysticism?
Primary attributes having an impact outside the prof's skills is nothing new.
Primary attributes having an impact outside the prof's skills is nothing new.
Tenebrae
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
Issue: Builds abusing this to fuel melee style builds.
Fix: Remove attack skills from the list. Not hard. PvE/P split to keep PvE-ers from whining. |
Thats not an issue , get over it .
/Notsigned
ElnoreVarda
Issue: I get owned in RA all day.
Fix: Make me lvl 32 and give me health potions.
thats what you mean?
Fix: Make me lvl 32 and give me health potions.
thats what you mean?
MagmaRed
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fap
your comment is bullshit mainly because expertise affects all ranger skills in general therefore only non-ranger attack skills would be affected
|
"For each rank of Expertise, the Energy cost of all of your attacks, Rituals, touch skills, and Rangers skills are decreased by 4%. Several skills, especially those related to Energy costs and skill recharge times, become more effective with higher Expertise."
I believe that was added in because of skills like Symbiotic Bond and Pounce. They are listed as Shout and Pet Attack, which is not covered by "your attacks, Rituals, or touch skills". And when you consider not having Expertise helping to use skills like Savage Shot, Pin Down, or Crippling Shot, a Ranger would be hurting for energy fast.
I see this as pointless. Would hurt the Ranger using a bow. I believe you want to just make it function for Ranger skills only, but even that isn't needed.
reaper with no name
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shriketalon
Will you also make the energy gained from E Storage and Soul Reaping apply only to elementalist and necromancer spells, respectively, have Fast Casting only impact Mesmer abilities, remove the boost to bone minions from Soul Reaping, make Critical Strikes only impact daggers, stop Leadership from drawing on warrior shouts, and make Dervish enchantments the only ones that impact Mysticism?
Primary attributes having an impact outside the prof's skills is nothing new. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
Oh , someone is hurt about rangers versatility when they play melee builds. QQ because of rangers asking a split to avoid QQ from PvE rangers ..... yeah.
Thats not an issue , get over it . /Notsigned |
Synergy is one thing. Utilizing it is why secondary professions exist. However, secondary professions were never intended to be more powerful at utilizing a primary profession's skills better than the primary profession itself. That is something completely different, and the inability to distinguish between these two things is the root of many of GW's balance problems.
This doesn't extend only to rangers, but they are one of the guilty parties here. Anything that helps to fix this gets a thumbs-up in my book (though I really think this should be a PvE change as well).
/signed for a little more balance to the game.
Del
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
The FC thing would kill mesmers.
|
reaper with no name
Sorry, that part was for PvE. I should have specified it.
MagmaRed
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
However, secondary professions were never intended to be more powerful at utilizing a primary profession's skills better than the primary profession itself.
|
reaper with no name
No. It actually supports my point.
Using one skill better than a profession is not the same as doing another profession's job better than it. A Ranger with mending touch is not going to be removing conditions from the party with the same effectiveness as a monk. Nor is it going to be healing or protting as well. It's just going to be using that one skill (mending touch) better.
Another example: Wild Blow. This is a skill that was clearly made with the intention that warrior secondaries would be making better use of it than primary warriors. However, note that wild blow does not make assassins better warriors than warriors.
These are examples of synergy. One profession slaps on a few skills from another profession, and becomes better than it would have been otherwise.
Examples of a profession stepping on another's toes would be Enduring Scythe, Crit Scythe, Crit Barrage, ER healers, and N/Rts pre-spirit buff.
Using one skill better than a profession is not the same as doing another profession's job better than it. A Ranger with mending touch is not going to be removing conditions from the party with the same effectiveness as a monk. Nor is it going to be healing or protting as well. It's just going to be using that one skill (mending touch) better.
Another example: Wild Blow. This is a skill that was clearly made with the intention that warrior secondaries would be making better use of it than primary warriors. However, note that wild blow does not make assassins better warriors than warriors.
These are examples of synergy. One profession slaps on a few skills from another profession, and becomes better than it would have been otherwise.
Examples of a profession stepping on another's toes would be Enduring Scythe, Crit Scythe, Crit Barrage, ER healers, and N/Rts pre-spirit buff.
Amy Awien
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Synergy is one thing. Utilizing it is why secondary professions exist. However, secondary professions were never intended to be more powerful at utilizing a primary profession's skills better than the primary profession itself.
|
Now, as to being better at the secondary as the primary itself, I don't think this is true for any secondary to the Ranger primary. A/x > R/A, D/x > R/D and W/x > R/W and since they nerfed Expertise with the release of Nightfall, P/x > R/P. And R/D, R/A and R/W can not choose another secondary to improve upon the /D, /A or /W - which the primaries can.
Not Listing it Here
I'd have to agree with reaper at this point. I remember reading a guide talking about SoS (using this as my example, yes I know it's a skill not a primary ability - work with me on this one), and the statement was "You're not a Rit...unless you are actually a Rit"...and it went on to say more to the same effect about other things. Don't try to be something you're not.
When a group is looking for a certain ability, that is the primary ability of one class, they shouldn't be snubbing the primary profession because Bubba who is a X/the ability the group is looking for is better at it (not talking about playing ability here). They shouldn't be better at it - hence game balance. This happens all the time.
I'd sign any change that eliminates secondaries at this point...(end rant).
When a group is looking for a certain ability, that is the primary ability of one class, they shouldn't be snubbing the primary profession because Bubba who is a X/the ability the group is looking for is better at it (not talking about playing ability here). They shouldn't be better at it - hence game balance. This happens all the time.
I'd sign any change that eliminates secondaries at this point...(end rant).
Shriketalon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Examples of a profession stepping on another's toes would be Enduring Scythe, Crit Scythe, Crit Barrage, ER healers, and N/Rts pre-spirit buff.
|
Dervishes, for example, need better reasons to use Mysticism to make them better than their counterparts.
Rangers need better skills with the expertise line to boost their bow abilities, because there are too many that are either stances or preps, and therefore don't stack.
ER needs to limit its function to elementalist skills only, or monks need actual energy management capabilities.
Etc.
The stuff you are discussing has less to do with the primaries than it does skill synergy, and could best be addressed by making the primary attribute skills help each profession excel at the roles it was meant to play.
Gargle Blaster
Not signed... Expertise is nice but it don't need a nerf. Especially after the nerf to ranger spike skills...
Tenebrae
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
When you're doing something better than the profession which is supposed to be doing it, yes, it's an issue. Remember, whenever you do something better than a profession, that's another option you're "taking away" from them.
|
You are not "taking away" nothing , not even using those " " because a Ranger using daggers is NOT better than a sin usin daggers. The thing is that a Ranger using X build with <insert melee prof> skills is viable and can make it work and that is not an issue .
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
/signed for a little more balance to the game.
|
Eragon Zarroc
ummmmm, no? -_-
Xenex Xclame
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
When you're doing something better than the profession which is supposed to be doing it, yes, it's an issue. Remember, whenever you do something better than a profession, that's another option you're "taking away" from them.
|
A ranger playing one or two builds better then the profession whos weapon he is using does not make the ranger better then that profession, it just makes the ranger better at using that one build.
Class dualing is one of the great things about GW, the way you can play warrior as a ranger and still knockdown like a war and still be quiet effective, or how a necro can go healer and still keep red bars up, or a mesmer can go ele and still nuke pretty well.When the secondary class does everything the weapon class does but much better then we have a problem.
That means as a R/W or R/A spiking before the heals can be used.
I dont hear you complaining about how necro's primary is better for spamming spirits, you wont hear me complain either.
Axel Zinfandel
Rangers are hardly the issue. Ranger builds with a scythe, for instance, doesn't make Dervishes worthless. Expertise is good, but nearly as profession breaking as other primaries...
For instance, Warrior's WE Scythe builds and Assassin's Crit Scythe builds in relation to dervishes. THEY make choosing a dervish primary very unappealing, because they do more damage then dervishes can do. Expertise and Rangers does not make them do more damage with melee weapons than their primary counterparts.. they just provide better energy management. It's been that way since the beginning, correct me if I'm wrong. Ranger Primaries sacrifice potency that primary professions (ussually) bring, for energy management. Expertise is fine the way it is, and it's other things you should be concerned with.
While I do agree with Reaper, it's a bit deeper then that. Sure, a secondary shouldn't completely outclass a job that is obviously a primary profession, but there are a lot of other factors at hand...
for instance, N/Mo and N/Rt healers. Like melee rangers, they sacrifice potency for energy management. Whether Soul Reaping itself is Imba is another story, but these synergies to not make people go "why play a monk when Necros do it all better?
another example, Orders Dervishes. They OBVIOUSLY do a better job keeping orders up than necros, but no one really complains that much. Why? for various reasons, really. Orders is a pretty small area compared to the rest of the necro arsenal, and they still do orders ok by themselves.
E/Mo prot spammers is more of an example of a synergy that is not ok, because I look at the prot like and go "Why play a monk when I can do it better on an ele?". They heal better with Infuse, and prot better then nearly any monk build out there, to the point where the only real monk build that outclasses it persay is the Mo/A Assassin's Promise SoL/PS/Aegis spammer
I hope I got my point across :P Point is, there's a lot of things at play, not just synergies themselves.
For instance, Warrior's WE Scythe builds and Assassin's Crit Scythe builds in relation to dervishes. THEY make choosing a dervish primary very unappealing, because they do more damage then dervishes can do. Expertise and Rangers does not make them do more damage with melee weapons than their primary counterparts.. they just provide better energy management. It's been that way since the beginning, correct me if I'm wrong. Ranger Primaries sacrifice potency that primary professions (ussually) bring, for energy management. Expertise is fine the way it is, and it's other things you should be concerned with.
While I do agree with Reaper, it's a bit deeper then that. Sure, a secondary shouldn't completely outclass a job that is obviously a primary profession, but there are a lot of other factors at hand...
for instance, N/Mo and N/Rt healers. Like melee rangers, they sacrifice potency for energy management. Whether Soul Reaping itself is Imba is another story, but these synergies to not make people go "why play a monk when Necros do it all better?
another example, Orders Dervishes. They OBVIOUSLY do a better job keeping orders up than necros, but no one really complains that much. Why? for various reasons, really. Orders is a pretty small area compared to the rest of the necro arsenal, and they still do orders ok by themselves.
E/Mo prot spammers is more of an example of a synergy that is not ok, because I look at the prot like and go "Why play a monk when I can do it better on an ele?". They heal better with Infuse, and prot better then nearly any monk build out there, to the point where the only real monk build that outclasses it persay is the Mo/A Assassin's Promise SoL/PS/Aegis spammer
I hope I got my point across :P Point is, there's a lot of things at play, not just synergies themselves.
Lord Dagon
/not signed.
dont really see the point in nerfing the crap out of rangers... they've taken a beating as it is.
dont really see the point in nerfing the crap out of rangers... they've taken a beating as it is.
DigitalFear
/signed as long as bow attacks remain untouched.
jazilla
/unsigned for many of the reasons stated above.
Side note: can we get a moratorium on all of this red engine gored stuff? it's so old hat.
Side note: can we get a moratorium on all of this red engine gored stuff? it's so old hat.
I Jonas I
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shriketalon
Will you also make the energy gained from E Storage and Soul Reaping apply only to elementalist and necromancer spells, respectively, have Fast Casting only impact Mesmer abilities, remove the boost to bone minions from Soul Reaping, make Critical Strikes only impact daggers, stop Leadership from drawing on warrior shouts, and make Dervish enchantments the only ones that impact Mysticism?
Primary attributes having an impact outside the prof's skills is nothing new. |
Xsiriss
Rangers recieve dart board buffs and then get hit horribly,did you read the last patch notes? Leave them alone.
Oh and one of the major upsides of GW is the ability to use a secondary profession with the benefits of the primary...
Oh and one of the major upsides of GW is the ability to use a secondary profession with the benefits of the primary...
The Drunkard
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
Issue: Builds abusing this to fuel melee style builds.
Fix: Remove attack skills from the list. Not hard. PvE/P split to keep PvE-ers from whining. |
/notsigned.
Marty Silverblade
Note: The following is from a PvE point of view, and assumes there will be a PvE/PvP split for Expertise.
Given that Rangers don't really have a large amount of good builds (at least not any that stand up to those of other professions), a nerf would be unfair. Tbh, with PvE in it's current state, I would be fine with lesser played professions (Mesmer, Ranger, Paragon) getting some slightly overpowered stuff to perhaps bring them into use in high end teams.
Given that Rangers don't really have a large amount of good builds (at least not any that stand up to those of other professions), a nerf would be unfair. Tbh, with PvE in it's current state, I would be fine with lesser played professions (Mesmer, Ranger, Paragon) getting some slightly overpowered stuff to perhaps bring them into use in high end teams.
Nachtkult
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
When you're doing something better than the profession which is supposed to be doing it, yes, it's an issue.
|
And if you REALLY have to nerf expertise, then nerf warriors, ritualists and sins as well. All these are better scythe users.
Reverend Dr
- Expertise is the most efficient energy management in the game (possible exception of soul reaping, but only in the context of PvE.)
- Any spammable skill (a skill that derives its power primarily from frequency of use) that is affected by expertise is going to be more powerful by a ranger primary than by its natural primary.
- Should another class be better at using skills than the primary? (if so then why have the other class as a primary and have it only as a secondary option?)
- Issue is as old as the first thumpers.
- Any spammable skill (a skill that derives its power primarily from frequency of use) that is affected by expertise is going to be more powerful by a ranger primary than by its natural primary.
- Should another class be better at using skills than the primary? (if so then why have the other class as a primary and have it only as a secondary option?)
- Issue is as old as the first thumpers.
Shayne Hawke
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
PvE/P split to keep PvE-ers from whining.
|
Morphy
For all of you people who think it will affect Ranger attack skills: I'm glad to inform you that Expertise clearly states it affects all Ranger skills and will thus also apply to Ranger Attack Skills.
To everyone who thinks it's a bad idea to PvE/P split attributes: You have a point, the only reason I added that was to make sure no PvE-er would go all butthurt because his gimmick gets nerfed and hopefully filter those people out. Unfortunate enough, there's always people like Tenebrae.
This isn't the ideal solution. The ideal solution would be to make sure skills on Assassins and Dervishes would actually be affected by their primary, much like Savage Shot and Apply Poison are for Rangers. Unfortunately enough, the new fast activation attack skills aren't affected by Critical Strikes and Rangers will therefore not lose out on anything if they use it as a secondairy profession.
This is however an easy solution that will fix all problems with gimmicky Dagger/Scythe Rangers or future similar gimmicks. As there aren't any well balanced builds that would be affected by this change I really see no reason not to implement this except for keeping idiots who are completely inept at this game from QQing about it.
Oh, I should add, Ritualist heals not being affected by Spawning Power are obviously also an issue. Water Magic barely being affected by Energy Storage is also an issue. These kind of things make it so that there is little reason to run it on a primairy and therefore open to abuse.
To everyone who thinks it's a bad idea to PvE/P split attributes: You have a point, the only reason I added that was to make sure no PvE-er would go all butthurt because his gimmick gets nerfed and hopefully filter those people out. Unfortunate enough, there's always people like Tenebrae.
This isn't the ideal solution. The ideal solution would be to make sure skills on Assassins and Dervishes would actually be affected by their primary, much like Savage Shot and Apply Poison are for Rangers. Unfortunately enough, the new fast activation attack skills aren't affected by Critical Strikes and Rangers will therefore not lose out on anything if they use it as a secondairy profession.
This is however an easy solution that will fix all problems with gimmicky Dagger/Scythe Rangers or future similar gimmicks. As there aren't any well balanced builds that would be affected by this change I really see no reason not to implement this except for keeping idiots who are completely inept at this game from QQing about it.
Oh, I should add, Ritualist heals not being affected by Spawning Power are obviously also an issue. Water Magic barely being affected by Energy Storage is also an issue. These kind of things make it so that there is little reason to run it on a primairy and therefore open to abuse.
MagmaRed
Morphy, it sounds more and more like you just want to play as a Primary class for PvP, and eliminate the secondary completely. I can agree that certain things are imbalanced, but I cannot agree with your solution. If specific SKILLS are a problem, adjust the skills, not an attribute. Some skills WILL be better used by another class, that can be said for virtually each of the 10 classes in the game for both PvP and PvE both. But a blanket change to 4+ years of attributes is not a smart thing to do. It would cause many more problems than it would fix.... if it would fix any problems.
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MagmaRed
Morphy, it sounds more and more like you just want to play as a Primary class for PvP, and eliminate the secondary completely. I can agree that certain things are imbalanced, but I cannot agree with your solution. If specific SKILLS are a problem, adjust the skills, not an attribute. Some skills WILL be better used by another class, that can be said for virtually each of the 10 classes in the game for both PvP and PvE both. But a blanket change to 4+ years of attributes is not a smart thing to do. It would cause many more problems than it would fix.... if it would fix any problems.
|
Expertise affecting attack skills from other professions doesn't have any benefits for a normal Ranger. I at least haven't seen a single balanced build really benefitting from this. Even if there is one, I can barely imagine this change would have much of an impact on it. If you only take two or so other prof energy attack skills you will really not have any problems managing it. If you take a build that lolspams Energy Attack Skills, however, it DOES become a problem. This change therefore only hits the problem and gives more room to breath for future updates.
Fast Casting affecting Spells/Signets from other professions, on the other hand, does have benefits for a normal Mesmer. Skills like Gale and hard rezzes (fast rezzes are one of the Mesmer's big strengths!) in general will be better with the attribute. Because of this, simply making Fast Casting only affect Mesmer skills will have a negative effect on them. This is why I oppose doing that.
Concerning your last sentence, exactly what problems would an update such as this one cause? Just take it in vacuüm, no other skill changes. What could possibly go wrong?
Amy Awien
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
.... the only reason I added that was to make sure no PvE-er would go all butthurt because his gimmick gets nerfed and hopefully filter those people out.
|
Quote:
| ... I really see no reason not to implement this except for keeping idiots who are completely inept at this game from QQing about it. |
Del
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Amy Awien
Sounds like you're the one who got his/her butt hurt in RA, were people like to run fun-builds. We're sorry if those A/R's, A/W's, R/A's and R/D's are better skilled at playing their secondary then you are playing your primary profession.
|
reaper with no name
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame
I dont hear you complaining about how necro's primary is better for spamming spirits, you wont hear me complain either.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel
another example, Orders Dervishes. They OBVIOUSLY do a better job keeping orders up than necros, but no one really complains that much. Why? for various reasons, really. Orders is a pretty small area compared to the rest of the necro arsenal, and they still do orders ok by themselves.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nachtkult
Nerfing it isn't a solution. Dervishes do need a buff, you're not going to make them any better just because you destroyed the R/D. /not signed
And if you REALLY have to nerf expertise, then nerf warriors, ritualists and sins as well. All these are better scythe users. |
But if anyone asks, I'm all for nerfing non-dervish scythe users. I mean, come on, they don't even know how to swing the freaking weapon properly.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
I have no objections to professions using secondairies to boost their primary abilities, I do have objections to professions essentially playing another profession. I know very well that some skills are better on other profs (see Shock, for example), but when an entire build is full of skills that are not from your own profession, something is wrong, in my opinion. If you disagree with this then I'm afraid there's not much point discussing this all.
Expertise affecting attack skills from other professions doesn't have any benefits for a normal Ranger. I at least haven't seen a single balanced build really benefitting from this. Even if there is one, I can barely imagine this change would have much of an impact on it. If you only take two or so other prof energy attack skills you will really not have any problems managing it. If you take a build that lolspams Energy Attack Skills, however, it DOES become a problem. This change therefore only hits the problem and gives more room to breath for future updates. |
upier
No.
Expertise needs an all-around nerf and not just a partial one.
Expertise needs an all-around nerf and not just a partial one.
Xenex Xclame
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
That's because in spite of it Rits still do spirit spam significantly better than necros.
|
Aurelio
/Not Signed
You want to force rangers to play with only dshot and apply poison just because you were owned in RA by a melee ranger? That's bullshit.
You want to force rangers to play with only dshot and apply poison just because you were owned in RA by a melee ranger? That's bullshit.