When do game activities become grind? And how much grind is too much grind? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

25 Feb 2010 at 14:36 - 1

First of all - keep in mind I use the term "grind" very freely here.
For instance, I would describe obtaining the max tier of the Sweets title as grind. So also keep that in mind when thinking about this issue.

Having posted the idea to make the quadruple points a regular feature (Yes, I AM shameless!

), instead of just bonus weekend addition - I was surprised by the amount of people who actually feel that this title is decently designed, down to the 10 million max tier. So instead of dragging that thread off-topic I figured I'd start a more general discussion here.
As I have argued here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You know, I don't just like playing my assassin. I also like the ranger. And I am really intrigued by the warrior. Mesmer - sweet also! Para? Heck yeah!
The problem with all these heavy grind titles is that I am pretty much forced to play just one guy. If my assassin needs Sweet points or Vanguard, it doesn't make sense to use sweets or play Vanguard areas on other guys. Because it just means I am not moving forward on my main guy.
So, a lower max tier for these titles would mean that players can get back to playing the game with multiple guys. This would bring back experiencing the game from multiple views - increasing it's longevity - and it would mean that players do not need to do everything on EVERY guy. That way the player could switch among his guys and bring the one that is best suited for a job - instead of needing to do everything on his main.
I still fondly remember grouping up for FoW, seeing that I might be more beneficial to the team on a different guy and then switching to that guy. These days, I am there on my assassin, and they can take it or leave it. I just can not justify playing on a different guy when my assassin needs to be played to get near the grind- and those 10k consumables-titles.

I would prefer to see the return to an account-wide way to play the game, rather than the character-based one we have now. This would also help lessen the issues we are dealing with the balance of not only skills, but actually classes since there would be no consequences if a player, unable to get a group of friends to do certain content, would just switch to a more desirable option and group with random folks.
"Mesmers suck? Ok, I'll just switch to my assassin because I don't need to grind a few months to max out his titles that affect his skills."

So with that in mind, I love to see A.Net take a second look at our content and make sure that the goals are much more in touch with the game. Because currently I find the consumable titles and the titles that give PvE benefits (outside of the Sunspear one) - in terms of skills AND other benefits (such as Lucky, Chest AND Unlucky) a "bit" out there. While the VQing title is almost borderline out there (killing the same foes - just in different maps) - it's concept makes sense. Stuff like opening 10k chests, when you are only going to run into way under 1k chests, I find to be just bonkers.
Stuff like missions in NM and HM - superb ideas!
It's definitely not that ALL goals are insane, I just feel that the guys got carried away in a few cases and this had a very negative effect on the whole game.

So when do you feel that game activities become grind? And how much grind is too much grind for you? And would the game be better or worse off if we'd see some changes in this regards?

Silverblad3

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2007

UK

I use to love CB :(

Mo/

25 Feb 2010 at 14:48 - 2

Agreed, 10k on consumables, Chests, Golds etc is a grind and often beyond a joke, I worked out that if I only did 5 high end chests a day it would take me 5.4 years.

By the way I only need 840 chests now and with unlucky done I should have maxed 35 titles. I am not QQing because I cannot do it, just seems ridiculous that I find myself doing this because really there is not much else to aim for....

The farm grind is beyond a joke to get such titles...I also have a 2nd character I am working on..but yes this is kinda sad. Hence I have no real interest in GW2, bring on Diablo 3.

Have fun!

Silver

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

25 Feb 2010 at 14:55 - 3

They have already done one major scaling change to the titles. Considering they could have just told the playerbase to collectively pound sand I'd say what they did do was more than generous. If you are in it for the skills their first changes dramatically improved the efficacy at low ranks. A good example here would be the difference between allegiance skills from r10->r12. While the skills themselves have negligible changes the title track sharply climbs rank to rank. This says to me that Anet understands people want the skills without the grind but if you want to max the title you need to work for it...so work for it.

As a side thought here...step outside your own shoes for a moment. Pretend you did all these titles (however you maxed them) and then along comes a scaling buff that drops the title cap in half or doubles bonuses. To max these you would have invested a significant portion of time and money to get it done as originally added to the game. How is it fair then that other people can now complete the same thing twice as fast for half the cost?

Silverblad3

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2007

UK

I use to love CB :(

Mo/

25 Feb 2010 at 14:59 - 4

To be honest having almost the 35 titles I really do not care how others get them, in fact I wish they would make them easier for others to get, I see how easily others are put off by the significant grind.

Terek Zelta

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

Vagrant Unity Society [VUS]

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 15:01 - 5

First of all, very well said. I agree with you 100% on everything, and I really mean that.

I love level grinding. LOVE it! I find it totally relaxing and enjoyable. I hate title grinding. Guild Wars took everything that used to be fun about grinding in MMORPGs and somehow made it awful, stressful, and just no fun.

My health isn't in very good shape right now. I suffer from a non-life threatening condition called the "Suicide Disease," because the pain is so terrible, it makes you want to kill yourself. This combined with other things in my life prevent me from spending unreasonable amounts of time in GW grinding titles.

A grind becomes a grind when it stops being interesting or relaxing. Title grinding stopped being both before I finished my first campaign.

The-Bigz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid

We Roll Pros [POD]

A/W

25 Feb 2010 at 15:05 - 6

I'll sign on this because I just dont have the time in my life to go hardcore PvE, let alone how much work you have to put into it, personalities you have to deal with, etc. Turning GW1 into a WoW clone under different circumstances was not enjoyable to me either. Instead of raiding for this gear for 9 weeks, you run this same path for this title for 9 weeks.

Agree'd on Character Wide titles again, or at least minimized gain needed for the titles.

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

25 Feb 2010 at 15:07 - 7

Quote:

As a side thought here...step outside your own shoes for a moment. Pretend you did all these titles (however you maxed them) and then along comes a scaling buff that drops the title cap in half or doubles bonuses. To max these you would have invested a significant portion of time and money to get it done as originally added to the game. How is it fair then that other people can now complete the same thing twice as fast for half the cost?

i wouldn't mind.
i have completed eotn titles, kurzick, consumables. got gwamm. i wouldn't mind making them easier at all.
because, first, it was insane grind. second, my own achievement would have been done before the eased ways, so my own achievement wouldn't be affected. i still have had it done the 'hard way' and could brag about it even more - back in the old days, if you wanted to max out your title, you had to put an effort in it, just look at me...

also, it's the same issue as with getting obsidian armor. just the scaling is different, but the issue is the same. since ectoplasm became a secondary currency, it was fluctuating. we had times when ecto was 5k/each, we had times when ecto was 15k/each. if someone has bought his armor for 15k/e and then, after a year, ecto went down to 5k/e, would it be mandatory for him to whine that it's much easier than it used to?
don't think so. and it wouldn't affect his own gameplay, at all.

Terek Zelta

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

Vagrant Unity Society [VUS]

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 15:10 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

They have already done one major scaling change to the titles. Considering they could have just told the playerbase to collectively pound sand I'd say what they did do was more than generous. If you are in it for the skills their first changes dramatically improved the efficacy at low ranks. A good example here would be the difference between allegiance skills from r10->r12. While the skills themselves have negligible changes the title track sharply climbs rank to rank. This says to me that Anet understands people want the skills without the grind but if you want to max the title you need to work for it...so work for it.

As a side thought here...step outside your own shoes for a moment. Pretend you did all these titles (however you maxed them) and then along comes a scaling buff that drops the title cap in half or doubles bonuses. To max these you would have invested a significant portion of time and money to get it done as originally added to the game. How is it fair then that other people can now complete the same thing twice as fast for half the cost?

This actually happens all the time with games. And the oldbies get all elitist and say, "Yeah, I got my X when it actually took skill."

Look, the bottom line is, you need a life if your pride is so wrapped up in title grinding. I don't mean that to be offensive, I'm saying it because I used to be that way, and then reality struck - hard - and I grew up.

ajc2123

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

North of the wall

Me/

25 Feb 2010 at 15:11 - 9

Account wide titles are always a good idea on a game that promotes playing multiple characters.

Shake N Bake

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2008

Maastricht

点pitterpatter点 [点点点点]

N/Rt

25 Feb 2010 at 15:17 - 10

Its not account wide because then just Pvers would have nothing 2 do after getting their 1st GWAMM.
I think it's actually good that all the titels need some grind, as it's differenciates the people who actually can sit down and work hard for those titles from those who can't.
Just think about it, compare it to any other hobby or thing in Life.
To get something in life u Must spend Time working towards it. If u r to lazy well....
In all the time u spend QQ on Guru u could actually be working on ur titels...

Mokeiro

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2009

25 Feb 2010 at 15:22 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

Account wide titles are always a good idea on a game that promotes playing multiple characters.

I will always wonders why Anet is so stupid to not understand they should reward the player not the character.

Account wide titles now.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

25 Feb 2010 at 15:22 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

words

Yes, because having an opinion that differs from yours automatically means I have no life or that I am somehow immature which frankly is hilarious. You wouldn't have to resort to personal insults if you had something worthwhile to say or could actually refute my points. The problem here is appeasement, it never works and threads like this one are further proof of it. Lindsey was very specific about not seeing the need for further title changes beyond the scaling update they did, flame away.

Shadowhaze

Nothing, tra la la?

Join Date: Oct 2007

25 Feb 2010 at 15:24 - 13

I agree with you.

My "main" character is my ranger. I've been on a grind for a while working on her titles and am nearly there.

I have a char of every profession because I like switching/being able to bring what someone needs for anything going on. And I just enjoy playing on them all. Each is fun in it's own way. But none of my other characters have maxed many titles. I just can't sink that much time into all of my chars to re-max every title on them. lol.

It kind of saddens me you are kind of forced (I know you aren't, but with the insanity of some of the titles and if you wanted to do them all on say 10 chars, bare with me.) to have a "main" character.

And yes, it kind of does make a difference with some skills being more effective with higher ranks also. Do you have to do it? Of course not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

A grind becomes a grind when it stops being interesting or relaxing.

To that, I agree.

Will they change it? Probably not this late in the game. So we'll most likely be left with what we have. Am I complaining? Not really. I still enjoy playing all my chars. It's just kind of annoying when a party is ilke "Can you bring your monk?" because their chars all need that (or they only have that one char) and they only need one more monk, yet I have another char that needs it.

(Yeah, I go on my monk anyway. lol) I think I should have made that my "main" char. XD

Games are life? :O I'm so out of the loop!

The-Bigz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid

We Roll Pros [POD]

A/W

25 Feb 2010 at 15:26 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Yes, because having an opinion that differs from yours automatically means I have no life or that I am somehow immature which frankly is hilarious. You wouldn't have to result to personal insults if you had something worthwhile to say or could actually refute my points. The problem here is appeasement, it never works and threads like this one are further proof of it. Lindsey was very specific about not seeing the need for further title changes beyond the scaling update they did, flame away.

I have a serious ego problem, but you are TOWERING over me right now.

In before Dr. Phil asks where the priest touched him and why the other kids on the block thought he wasn't important his whole life.

"Hey Mom at least I'm doing something with my virtual life!"

All Jokes aside: You take way too much of an elitist tone and the guy said he meant no offense and had mental sickness before and got over it and that he thinks this helped lead to it, maybe you should take the same stance as him.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

25 Feb 2010 at 15:32 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

As a side thought here...step outside your own shoes for a moment. Pretend you did all these titles (however you maxed them) and then along comes a scaling buff that drops the title cap in half or doubles bonuses. To max these you would have invested a significant portion of time and money to get it done as originally added to the game. How is it fair then that other people can now complete the same thing twice as fast for half the cost?

Having just maxed Lucky by standing in a circle after almost 4 years - I wouldn't mind if it was easier to get. I simply can no wish on anyone to have to waste as much money and time as I did on that. Have people enjoy those events rather than just check on GW (which is running ALL weekend), just to see if you hadn't been kicked out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

Account wide titles are always a good idea on a game that promotes playing multiple characters.

Absolutely.
But the goals need to be actually designed in a decent way.
You probably won't go for GWAMM by maxing out the account wide titles.

But even character goals aren't that moronic. Imagine Sugar maxing at 1k. Or Party. Or Booze. That would actually give you the option of maxing them on multiple guys, giving you the chance of actually playing those guys.
I would much rather play the game, nibble on some sweets on my ranger or on my assassin or my mesmer than stand in my GH and choke on the sugar I need to consume on just one guy.

Operations

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

Saint Louis, MI (yes, it exists)

Pylons of Bastet [PofB]

E/

25 Feb 2010 at 15:37 - 16

I've been saying they should unify the titles per account for a long time.

Voodoo Rage

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sacramento, CA

Geezers

R/

25 Feb 2010 at 15:41 - 17

The best thing they did was scale the PvE skills so that they were useful at low and moderate titles. A lot of us just don't bother with title grinding. Personally I like playing lots of different characters.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

25 Feb 2010 at 15:42 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

words

Do either of you moan so much when you see high ranked PvP players in game? Surely those folks are no-lifers too I mean with some determination you could max Treasure out in 6 weeks, think you can even come close to Hero in that time frame? When I see someone with a hard to get title I don't have I think to myself "Damn that is impressive!" not "Wah Anet change the scaling so I can be one of the cool kids too!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Having just maxed Lucky by standing in a circle after almost 4 years - I wouldn't mind if it was easier to get. I simply can no wish on anyone to have to waste as much money and time as I did on that. Have people enjoy those events rather than just check on GW, that is running ALL weekend, just to see if you hadn't been kicked out.

Congrats and I sincerely mean that but you could have made this much easier on yourself running low end chests in Shing Jea. Lockpick retention is fairly high even at low ranks and at 250 a pop it adds up very fast depending on what route you run. Even if you restrict your activity to the bi-annual double lucky/unlucky weekend you could put a massive dent in this title over time.

The-Bigz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid

We Roll Pros [POD]

A/W

25 Feb 2010 at 15:46 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Do either of you moan so much when you see high ranked PvP players in game? Surely those folks are no-lifers too I mean with some determination you could max Treasure out in 6 weeks, think you can even come close to Hero in that time frame? When I see someone with a hard to get title I don't have I think to myself "Damn that is impressive!" not "Wah Anet change the scaling so I can be one of the cool kids too!".

Congrats and I sincerely mean that but you could have made this much easier on yourself running low end chests in Shing Jea. Lockpick retention is fairly high even at low ranks and at 250 a pop it adds up very fast depending on what route you run. Even if you restrict your activity to the bi-annual double lucky/unlucky weekend you could put a massive dent in this title over time.

I am a high ranked PvPer and I got it over time, not in 6 weeks, I have friends, a girlfriend, a job, and the only time I'd play THAT extreme is over a breakup for comfort and distraction or if I'm laid off work for the season. I dont think I'm cool for it, I think it just shows that I know how to play to other high rankers so we can get together and own. Once again, your showing an extremist elite side to yourself that points towards mental sickness, which I only commented on your post for flaming someone that did admit they had one and got over it, because I do admire him posting something like that to a bunch of flaming r-tards, not that it matters. Other people do have an opinion as well.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

25 Feb 2010 at 15:49 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

words

Yes, I've had 5 years (in some cases 3) to work on titles in my free time and max them. I'm mentally ill because I maxed out titles...are you done trolling now?

Rocky Raccoon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

Massachusetts, USA

Guardians of the Cosmos

R/Mo

25 Feb 2010 at 15:54 - 21

"Grind" is just a relative term as each person has their own definition of what they consider to be "grind". Personally I don't mind having to kill so many of such and such to achieve a goal, as long as there are balancing side quests to break "the grind" up. Having played RPG's from when they first came out I might have been acclimated to such game-play.

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

25 Feb 2010 at 15:55 - 22

I feel like the more grind there is in a game, that's a sign either that the real end game content (of which GW only has two, DoA and Slavers', since every other "high end" area can be accessed before completion of the campaign/storyline) isn't sufficient for holding players' attention for decent periods of time, or that the rewards of some types of grind are lackluster at low levels of progression and stupidly powerful at high (or even still at low) levels by design - pretty much any PvE-only and some PvE-split skills that have become infamous for one reason or another over the past few years.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

25 Feb 2010 at 16:02 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Congrats and I sincerely mean that but you could have made this much easier on yourself running low end chests in Shing Jea. Lockpick retention is fairly high even at low ranks and at 250 a pop it adds up very fast depending on what route you run. Even if you restrict your activity to the bi-annual double lucky/unlucky weekend you could put a massive dent in this title over time.

I now need to max Unlucky.
Did the math and it seems I need to now open like 5k chests with a value of 600 in NM to get there. I ran chests for like 2 days for less than an hour each day.
After those two days - I needed a 14 day break from GW.

That to me is too much grind and I will rather stop playing than force myself to do it.

On the other hand, I will GLADLY open any chest I see while just playing PvE. As anyone who partied with me and heard me shout "OMG!! A CHEST!!! ARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!!" followed by me rushing for it, aggroing half the map, will confirm!

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

25 Feb 2010 at 16:04 - 24

I love the gameplay titles. Guardian/Protector/Vanquisher are all fun to me because you are rewarded for playing the game's storyline. There's a lot of 'work' involved, but i like it because every mission or vanquish is different enough to not make it too much of a drag. Same goes for Cartographer, every step to increase your progress in the title is unique.

I'm not that fond of the Allegiance titles, like SS/LB, Kurz/Luxon and the EotN ones. Some of them can be maxed by playing the game and doing some more farming or runs (EotN ones), some of them need an ungodly amount of dedication to max (Kurz/Luxon). I am happy Kurz/Lux is indeed accountwide, so I can progress in the title without limiting myself to one character.

The last batch of titles are in my opinion only fun for the first or first few tiers. Sweet/Party/Drunkard is all about farming the money and clicking 10,000 on the items you've bought. It's no fun at all. There's no skill involved. Progression in Lucky/Unlucky is so slow and indirect the title could as well be non-existant, and running 10k Chests or Wisdom demands such time-investment into this game... I just can't justify the time needed maxing those titles.

All in all it saddens me Anet used titles to artificially inflate playing time for Guild Wars. Being rewarded by a title for completing all missions the game had to offer in HM is one thing, but being rewarded for running Witman's Folly for 2500 times to max TH is downright sadism.

Anet opted for the easy way out. Instead of adding interesting content by for example providing us with more areas to discover, they gave us some treadmills in the form of adding +1 over and over to a title until the bar is at 100%. And we are happily running in those treadmills, talking down on the people that are trying to expose the facades and show the public what they are really accomplishing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I now need to max Unlucky.
Did the math and it seems I need to now open like 5k chests with a value of 600 in NM to get there. I ran chests for like 2 days for less than an hour each day.
After those two days - I needed a 14 day break from GW.

That to me is too much grind and I will rather stop playing than force myself to do it.

On the other hand, I will GLADLY open any chest I see while just playing PvE. As anyone, who partied with me as they heard me shout "OMG!! A CHEST!!! ARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!!" and see me rush for it, aggroing half the map, can confirm!

I wholeheartedly agree. Including the part about aggroing half the map as soon as a chest is spotted

Terek Zelta

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

Vagrant Unity Society [VUS]

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 16:05 - 25

@Reformed: Maybe saying that was out of line, but I wasn't directing it at you personally, I was illustrating a point, but sometimes I come off needlessly confrontational, and I'm sorry for that.

My point is that a lot of players aren't going to care. I wouldn't care. In fact, I'd see it as a nice boost, because, and I'm evidently not the only one who feels this way, I want to play other characters too, but I don't have the motivation to spend all that time title grinding. I don't have the time to spend all that time grinding. So it'd still be easier for everyone, especially if titles became account-wide, then everyone really wins.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

25 Feb 2010 at 16:17 - 26

I don't have any problem with all Allegiance titles and Party/Sweet/Drunk going to account wide. I don't understand why that didn't happen to begin with and I'd /sign for the change. My understanding was that this thread was calling for another scaling decrease to make things more within reach to the very casual gamer.

Let's try this instead...the game is coming up on it's 5th birthday. Suppose they do drop the ranks to a more suitable level, everyone who wants them maxes the titles out and is happy with the changes. Then what? It's obvious they don't have the resources to put in brand new real content and while titles are a very poor substitute with those out of the way what else is left?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I now need to max Unlucky.
Did the math and it seems I need to now open like 5k chests with a value of 600 in NM to get there. I ran chests for like 2 days for less than an hour each day.

I'm not saying that I disagree with you but look at it like this. Before they redid those titles you only gained 25 unlucky points per break. If you started at 0 it would cost you somewhere in the ballpark of 25 million needing 20,000 breaks start to finish and somehow people actually had Cursed by Fate before the update. If you were to do it today starting at 0 and picking a reasonable spot say...65%, it would run you somewhere around 3-4 million needing ~3100 breaks. That was an extremely generous re-evaluation of a title that was beyond ridiculous to work on.

Terek Zelta

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

Vagrant Unity Society [VUS]

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 16:24 - 27

I'd play the game a lot more, personally, because it'd be easier for me to play multiple characters. I want to play a dervish, an elementalist and a necromancer, and I would if each one didn't take upwards of 6-8 months to complete. I don't have that kind of time.

I don't care so much for the GWAMM or any of those. It's the EotN titles that are the worst offenders for me, especially when we take into account that a lot of those PVE skills are integral to some builds, like Asuran Scan, Brawling Headbutt, Dwarven Stability (especially with the new update to Dwarven Battle Stance), YMLaD, and others. People shouldn't be penalized just because they aren't willing to spend an entire month or two maxing their Norn rank, especially given that Anet nerfed some of the older grinds, like kegging.

isildorbiafra

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Netherlands

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 16:40 - 28

I vote they revert Alliance titles back the way they used to be without the reintroduction of HFFF. Make it so that faction can only be obtained by playing JQ; FA and AB. Guess what; the revenue obtained from zkeys will max you all consumable titles; with enough keys to spare to add the zaishen title to your HoM. Thats what I did.

OP is just lazy; and wants to perma/sc all. / NOT SIGNED!

Next thing you'll want them to bring back rr for pvp titles. pffffff.

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

25 Feb 2010 at 16:51 - 29

Yes, make increasing the rank of Lux/Kurz solely based on PvP-play so your PvE-only skills are more effective. Makes sense.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

25 Feb 2010 at 16:51 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Let's try this instead...the game is coming up on it's 5th birthday. Suppose they do drop the ranks to a more suitable level, everyone who wants them maxes the titles out and is happy with the changes. Then what? It's obvious they don't have the resources to put in brand new real content and while titles are a very poor substitute with those out of the way what else is left?

Even if they do quit, wouldn't it be better to have people quit this game with the knowledge that they did it all, rather than how they quit now - pissed at the game because there is no way in hell that they can max their guys?

Personally, I still enjoy making new guys, checking out how the class evolved from the last time I played it, trying out new strategies and that certainly wouldn't change if they made these goals easier to achieve. Heck, I would argue that it would make it even more enjoyable because instead of having to do stuff 15 times on my assassin I could do it 2 times on my mesmer, then 3 times on my ranger, a few times on my .... The game can still offer a great number of ways to play it - and it's a shame we are forced to stick with one way only.

Terek Zelta

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

Vagrant Unity Society [VUS]

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 16:55 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

I vote they revert Alliance titles back the way they used to be without the reintroduction of HFFF. Make it so that faction can only be obtained by playing JQ; FA and AB. Guess what; the revenue obtained from zkeys will max you all consumable titles; with enough keys to spare to add the zaishen title to your HoM. Thats what I did.

OP is just lazy; and wants to perma/sc all. / NOT SIGNED!

Next thing you'll want them to bring back rr for pvp titles. pffffff.

This is a very common stance to take, and it's totally false. Let me give you another point of view.

I'm a reverend by profession. My legal title is "Reverend Father." The nature of my work, and what it took to even get here, is stressful beyond anything you could possibly imagine. Stressful to the point that it's affected my physical health, and I'm ill.

I play RPGs to relax. I got into Guild Wars because it was marketed as a more progressive RPG that reduced the grind. Cool, I said, I get to enjoy an RPG that I don't have to stress over. But when I got the game, I realized, to my disappointment, that the grind was actually even worse than a game like Ragnarok Online or WoW. But it's okay, because titles are optional, right?

Not really, no. Not when everyone around you is running 6 seconds of Save Yourselves and maxed Asuran Scan.

I'm anything but lazy. In fact, I'm overworked. That's why I don't like coming home to have to work again. I get 1-2 hours of playtime a day, and I have to spend that time on my dervish getting Asura runs? No thanks. I'll just play my scythe warrior and fantasize about playing a dervish.

What I've realized is that a lot of Guild Wars players are older, and their situations are similar, if less extreme than mine, and that doesn't make their arguments any less valid.

But this is maybe addressing a larger problem with MMORPGs as a whole.

Edit: Had to finish an idea. Hehe.

chessyang

Not far from Elite

Join Date: Apr 2006

Florida

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 17:00 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I would prefer to see the return to an account-wide way to play the game, rather than the character-based one we have now

ya i agree to. i gave up "grinding" the speedbooks and then doing sunspear farming points for my other toons.

I'm happy the factions are account wide. i'll solo farm (A/E) some greens then back to my wamo to clear out some areas.

also upier i posted on twitter an idea about the login screen. they did respond and said for the devs to look at the idea was to post it on the wiki to keep it legit. if you have more ideas post them on the wiki. and check my sig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I hate title grinding. Guild Wars took everything that used to be fun about grinding in MMORPGs and somehow made it awful, stressful, and just no fun.

i agree also! just wanted to say that

isildorbiafra

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Netherlands

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 17:14 - 33

Do not presume you know the boundarys of my imagination. I to am an adult going on 40; married; and with a fulltime career as an MD. I know the nature of MMORPG's can have a severe impact on health; social activity and career. As such I also know that we cant have it all in life. So; have fun & enjoy; but lets keep it fair to the people who did spend oodles of time maxing titles the way they were intended to. Titles were made to distinuish some from others.

Another Felldspar

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

Alchemy Incorporated

Mo/E

25 Feb 2010 at 17:31 - 34

It's grind if it's not fun or interesting or what you want to do. If you are doing something because of a reward, and not simply enjoying the reward of playing, it's grind.

In Prophecies and in Factions my play pal and I used to kill every red dot that appeared on our radar -- we pushed buttons, things blew up, it was fun. We might be heading to a specific location, but taking a detour because there were enemies on the screen was the norm. Then we started playing NF and there were these little guys standing next to the rez shrines and they had special little bounties. The change in play style was amazing. Very quickly we started avoiding any red dot that didn't have an associated bounty showing on our screen at the time. Now it wasn't just fun, we were getting paid to eliminate red dots and by God we weren't going to eliminate any of them for free. The reward became the bounty where before the reward had been the play.

At this point I'd rather play in Factions than anywhere else in the game. The red dots are close together and in fairly good-sized groups and I can just do it for fun and not worry about getting paid. I like that better. Missions, vanquishes, hanging out with allies, it's good fun. I like the Zaishen missions and bounties too, there isn't any title involved and even though you do get paid there are options for how you want to spend your coin.

At the same time I enjoy the titles. I find myself looking mournfully at my title-hound Monk who is sitting unused because playing the other characters is more fun to me at the moment. My play pal has now passed me by in the titles department because I'm busy playing my Mesmer or my Paragon or my Rit and she's been faithful to her Ranger. Instead of a smelly guildhall I have many books and several KoaBD titles on other characters.

So... I like the titles, I want the titles, and at some point I will probably go back and grind out GWAMM on the monk. But it will be grind. Right now I'm too busy playing to worry about grinding.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

25 Feb 2010 at 17:41 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

As such I also know that we cant have it all in life. So; have fun & enjoy; but lets keep it fair to the people who did spend oodles of time maxing titles the way they were intended to. Titles were made to distinuish some from others.

Nobody is arguing that titles aren't supposed to distinguish players among themselves. The problem is where that boundary is.
When you have a game where playing the game will bring you in 350k faction, and to max it you need 5 million - that line is probably set a bit too high.
Same with how completing the game will probably give you the chance to open a few hundred chests, yet the line is at 10k. Probably a bit out of touch with the game also.
On the other hand, take Sunspear for instance. You play the game, VQ the maps and you get to max the title. You still have a line that separates players but that line is very much in touch with the game.

As for the people who got there already - sometimes you pay more to be the first. I paid much more for my mesmer's FoW than I did for my assassin's.

Terek Zelta

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

Vagrant Unity Society [VUS]

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 18:11 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Nobody is arguing that titles aren't supposed to distinguish players among themselves. The problem is where that boundary is.
When you have a game where playing the game will bring you in 350k faction, and to max it you need 5 million - that line is probably set a bit too high.
Same with how completing the game will probably give you the chance to open a few hundred chests, yet the line is at 10k. Probably a bit out of touch with the game also.
On the other hand, take Sunspear for instance. You play the game, VQ the maps and you get to max the title. You still have a line that separates players but that line is very much in touch with the game.

As for the people who got there already - sometimes you pay more to be the first. I paid much more for my mesmer's FoW than I did for my assassin's.

Bingo!

The Sunspear title is a perfect example of a nicely balanced title. You still work for it, but it's not unreasonable. It's, dare I say, fun.

@Isildor: Don't interpret what I said as an attack. If you read my post, you'd realize it isn't MMORPGs that affect my health, but my job.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

25 Feb 2010 at 18:21 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I now need to max Unlucky.

No, you don't.

You WANT to max it. It's YOUR choice.

That's it: some titles can be maxed only after massive grinding. Having them maxed just shows your dedication to the game -> how much TIME you could spend on it.

Yes. Skill > Time was a lie. Simply because GW feels so simplistic when compared to other games that it requires almost no skill whatsoever, be it PvE or PvP. The PvX-mentality shows that pretty much anyone can do anything by just copy-pasting a template code.

So, there can be no "Skill > Time" when no skill is needed to accomplish anything.

isildorbiafra

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Netherlands

W/

25 Feb 2010 at 18:26 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As for the people who got there already - sometimes you pay more to be the first. I paid much more for my mesmer's FoW than I did for my assassin's.

Your thinking is flawed. It only feels that way. lets say ectos were 15k when you bought your mesmer FOW and 5k when you bought your assassin. Disregarding broken farm builds like SF and UWSC which must be removed asap; back then when you bought your mesmer FOW there was no such thing as loot scaling. Hence peolpe made tons of cash farming all over the place and all item prices were relatively much higher; which ment you made much more money trading back than than you do nowadays. So you see its all relative. The net effort however remains the same!

Kaleban

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Hot as hell Florida

[Wckd]

Me/

25 Feb 2010 at 18:34 - 39

The funny bit is that this thread even exists given ANet's promise that GW would reward skill and not grind.

Or that as they expanded PvE content, they added in more and more grind.

If ANet is smart, they will make all titles account based, which means once you get a GWAMM, all your characters can display it. Sure, it may not be "fair" for all the oldies who grinded out GWAMM on multiple characters, but seeing as how that's insane in the first place I wouldn't set the bar by them.

The point is, for ANet to survive they MUST increase interest in their games. To have a PvE side that is primarily repetitive grind, especially given that it was advertised as the exact opposite is not conducive to maintaining a playerbase that trusts you, nor does it attract new business.

Account wide titles (all titles) would be a wise step towards making GW PvE fun again.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

25 Feb 2010 at 18:36 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

No, you don't.

You WANT to max it. It's YOUR choice.

That's it: some titles can be maxed only after massive grinding. Having them maxed just shows your dedication to the game -> how much TIME you could spend on it.

Yes. Skill > Time was a lie. Simply because GW feels so simplistic when compared to other games that it requires almost no skill whatsoever, be it PvE or PvP. The PvX-mentality shows that pretty much anyone can do anything by just copy-pasting a template code.

So, there can be no "Skill > Time" when no skill is needed to accomplish anything.

People don't NEED to play GW.
They WANT to play GW.
Not only that, they can choose to not bring SF into their own instance.
Do you see where I am going with this?

Titles are content.
And the question that is raised here is if this content is in touch with the rest of the game. Based on the numbers we are seeing, I am arguing that it isn't. And based on other effects this content has on the rest of the game - I am also arguing that it would be beneficial to at least take a long hard look at it and decide if this is what the game is supposed to evolve into.
If for no other reason - to set the direction for GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

Your thinking is flawed. It only feels that way. lets say ectos were 15k when you bought your mesmer FOW and 5k when you bought your assassin. Disregarding broken farm builds like SF and UWSC which must be removed asap; back then when you bought your mesmer FOW there was no such thing as loot scaling. Hence peolpe made tons of cash farming all over the place and all item prices were relatively much higher; which ment you made much more money trading back than than you do nowadays. So you see its all relative. The net effort however remains the same!

As I said, the value of the set isn't only it's monetary value.
Nowadays pretty much every assassin is running around in FoW. So, me running around in it has a smaller value than me running around in my mesmer's FoW had in a time when less people had it.
I paid more to be a unique snowflake.
The same way that, for instance, people paid more to buy a PS3 on launch as they do now. Or in GW, how they paid 100k+ for a Celestial Tiger on Friday, but we only paid around 40k on Sunday.
Or in a relevant example - the way people paid to show off their max chest title when very few people had it.