It's time the anti farming and anti solo inquisition comes to an end. - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

03 Mar 2010 at 21:32 - 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

The BDS would be a reasonable price without farmers actually, because nobody would be running around with stacks of ectos. It's inflation, only the farmers can afford what the other farmers are selling. That being said there would be far fewer BDS's for sale, but people wouldn't be able to ask as much because people wouldn't HAVE as much. Disparity is worse for the economy than anything else.

Do you really believe that because people won't have that much that a wanted item that would become even more rare because it isn't farmed, would suddenly become cheap and in reach of most players? Ofcourse it would cost less compared to the current situation if everything gets devaluated, but it would be even more out of reach because it would become more rare.

What you say there is against the basic principles of economy and supply and demand.

I'll demonstrate with a real life example why your analogy makes no sense. Before the global economy crisis you could buy a Black Lotus (Magic the Gathering) on ebay for around 1000$. The price decreased and you can find one for 600-700 dollar now, but the average wealth of people decreased too so the situation is the same. If Wizards of the coast (publisher) would release an expansion reprinting the Black lotus, the prices of a black lotus would go down instantly as seen in the past when they reprinted wanted cards. The reprinting would be like farming in GW.

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

03 Mar 2010 at 21:41 - 122

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Do you really believe that because people won't have that much that a wanted item that would become even more rare because it isn't farmed, would suddenly become cheap and in reach of most players? Ofcourse it would cost less compared to the current situation if everything gets devaluated, but it would be even more out of reach because it would become more rare.

What you say there is against the basic principles of economy and supply and demand.

I'll demonstrate with a real life example why your analogy makes no sense. Before the global economy crisis you could buy a Black Lotus (Magic the Gathering) on ebay for around 1000$ on ebay. The price decreased and you can find one for 600-700 dollar now, but the average income of people decreased too so the situation is the same. If Wizards of the coast (publisher) would release an expansion reprinting the Black lotus, the prices of a black lotus would go down instantly. The reprinting would be like farming in GW.

Except there are a set number of Black Lotus cards, there will never be more unless Wizards reprints. Which makes them more like a mini panda than a BDS. And it wouldn't lower the prices now to get rid of speed clears, but had they never existed in the first place it would be a different story. The biggest problem is ArenaNet didn't do the sensible thing and fix the skills as soon as they were released.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

03 Mar 2010 at 21:48 - 123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I'll demonstrate with a real life example why your analogy makes no sense. Before the global economy crisis you could buy a Black Lotus (Magic the Gathering) on ebay for around 1000$ on ebay. The price decreased and you can find one for 600-700 dollar now, but the average income of people decreased too so the situation is the same. If Wizards of the coast (publisher) would release an expansion reprinting the Black lotus, the prices of a black lotus would go down instantly. The reprinting would be like farming in GW.

Except that WotC (Hasbro) had the common sense to recognize reprints of those cards would completely destroy the secondary market. It's also a tangible good versus a virtual one and that has it's own set of problems. I was a long time collector and had several of these pass through my hands over the years including a pair of mint Alphas and would have been furious if Hasbro had fired up the printing presses just to make new players happy.

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

03 Mar 2010 at 22:06 - 124

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Except that WotC (Hasbro) had the common sense to recognize reprints of those cards would completely destroy the secondary market. It's also a tangible good versus a virtual one and that has it's own set of problems. I was a long time collector and had several of these pass through my hands over the years including a pair of mint Alphas and would have been furious if Hasbro had fired up the printing presses just to make new players happy.

Yes, I doubt they would ever reprint a card that they have pretty much banned from every format, and limited in the ones that their own rules don't allow cards to be banned in. Doubly so since they were wary to reprint a card like lightning bolt which is infinately less powerful than Black Lotus.

Black Lotus is worth a lot of money for more reasons than just being rare, there are other cards from Alpha that are just as rare but aren't worth as much because they aren't excessively overpowered. The BDS is simply rare, and an alright looking skin, that's it. It doesn't have a q7 14-28 50% chance to HCT and HSR with a +40 energy on it or anything, yes that's about how overpowered Black Lotus is.

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

03 Mar 2010 at 22:08 - 125

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Except that WotC (Hasbro) had the common sense to recognize reprints of those cards would completely destroy the secondary market. It's also a tangible good versus a virtual one and that has it's own set of problems. I was a long time collector and had several of these pass through my hands over the years including a pair of mint Alphas and would have been furious if Hasbro had fired up the printing presses just to make new players happy.

Yes true, and I'm glad they didn't reprint them too because I would have lost a lot of cash.

But like you say, this is a virtual game and farmers are a positive thing imo, just because items get more accesible to more players, where as in MTG it depends on how much real money you have on your bank account, if you want to play type I tournaments at least.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

03 Mar 2010 at 22:46 - 126

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

This is what Anet said about that: 'Advanced farmers are always going to earn more money than their more casual counterparts. There's nothing wrong with that. When farmers earn their money by finding valuable items and selling them to other players, they're making the game more enjoyable for everyone. They're facilitating trade'

As long as we talk about "advanced farmers", fine with me. What's being hit with those nerfs is not just "advanced farming", but something more degenerated and excessive. Something that's still possible but a little toned down. So, what are we talking about here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Oh btw, I watched that pax interview at the time, the thing you should worry about is why nerfing makes Linsey nervous. 4thvariety worded it excellent on the previous page, it's a neverending downcycle of a loss of players which is bad for an mmo.

Basically, they're aware that people now just play for greed. People just care about "rewards". People just care about "efficiency", even if that means abusing something developers have volountarily let alone. Well, farmers have surpassed the limit and they decided not to accept these abuses anymore. Why this is so surprising to people is really beyond me.

I don't really believe people are leaving just for the nerfs. People are just growing tired of an old game, while e-drama rages and resentment against the developers rises. If people are leaving because they can't stand fixes and changes, well, good riddance. I don't think ANet can keep their customer base by just allowing any kind of degeneration only to please a portion of the remaining crowd either. Just to make an example, I keep on playing just because of my friends, since the game itself has been sucking big time for me since the launch of GW:EN. I am not going to buy GW2 it THAT'S how they mean to develop and mantain the game and rest assured I'm not alone.

You can't please everyone. Good companies choose to aim to a particular audience and market niche. GW was marketed as a competitive online RPG. It was different from the rest and aimed also at casual players.

It's time for ANet to make a choice: are they still for the "skill > time" claim? Or is GW2 going to be another grinding game where the most broken build wins?

Turbo Ginsu

I despise facebook

Join Date: Feb 2008

Australia

Meeting of the Lost Minds

Me/

03 Mar 2010 at 23:16 - 127

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

not exactly. i feel that nerfs or not, it's no big deal. just adapt. the majority of whiners on this forum simply lack the imagination to find something else.

To be honest, this is a problem in every game of this type. 3 mindsets prevail:

1.Builders (I've been unbelieveably productive since the nerf!!)
2.Build Leechers (What build have you made for me to unwrap and use??)
3. Whingers (I can't run any of it without fail en masse, so please nerf everything, QQ!!)

Builders and Build Leechers are both productive, builders build, leechers take those builds and sometimes improve them. Neither of these types tend to sway towards the whingers side unless they cop constant blanket nerfs to everything they do. IMO it's the nerfs that are counter-productive here.

Last of all, we have the Whingers. These guys contribute nothing, adapt to little, and generally spend most of their time ruining everyone elses fun, usually because they're either elitist twats living in a little dream world they found in the 1.0 release rulebook, (You know it never really existed, tell them that..) or because they suffer from epic /fail, and just want to bring everyone else down to their level of suck.

IMO, it's obvious which group of players GW would be best without, unfortunately that's not going to happen either. I just hope at the end of the day that aNet realise this small slice of the GW demographic that frequents these forums, is not not NOT an accurate guideline to the general consensus of the overall community that hasn't yet been forced away from GW. Yet. IMO, the Whingers are the only group of these 3 that contributes nothing to GW, and as such, should just F.O.A.D.

Pandora's box

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Netherlands

Mo/W

04 Mar 2010 at 00:05 - 128

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

....It's time for ANet to make a choice: are they still for the "skill > time" claim? ..

One of the biggest misunderstandings, yet often brought up. But still a misunderstanding: In other games players are farming gear to become stronger: = time. In GW players are spending just as much time in unlocking the necessary skillsets. To spend time on getting gear or on unlocking skills, its just the same. There IS no difference with other games if you bring it back to the basics: how much time you spend to become stronger...

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

04 Mar 2010 at 00:43 - 129

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

One of the biggest misunderstandings, yet often brought up. But still a misunderstanding: In other games players are farming gear to become stronger: = time. In GW players are spending just as much time in unlocking the necessary skillsets. To spend time on getting gear or on unlocking skills, its just the same. There IS no difference with other games if you bring it back to the basics: how much time you spend to become stronger...

Which is why the skills need to be balanced so that you can become strong with a few early skills you have access too and any elite for your profession, as opposed to only one or two truly being viable.

jazilla

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]

E/Me

04 Mar 2010 at 00:43 - 130

It has always been thus. You play what the update gives you. It just so happened that SF and Mite/600 teams had a good long while of play due to the lack of a solid update that people got way too attached to the builds/money/runs/items they were able to accomplish with them. I miss 600'ing on my ele/monk/rit. But guess what? I salvaged my armors and moved on. If you don't like the state of the game, move on. It has happened a thousand times and will happen at housand times more. Get over it.

DRGN

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

In Memorium [iBot]

Mo/A

04 Mar 2010 at 00:47 - 131

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

The BDS would be a reasonable price without farmers actually, because nobody would be running around with stacks of ectos. It's inflation, only the farmers can afford what the other farmers are selling. That being said there would be far fewer BDS's for sale, but people wouldn't be able to ask as much because people wouldn't HAVE as much. Disparity is worse for the economy than anything else.

Um, you think most of these people running around with stacks of Armbraces and tens of thousands of ectos farm?

Can someone answer this question: Why is making gobs of money farming with "invincibility" something that can't be permitted, but making obscene amounts of money from things such as cape leechers in gold trim guilds acceptable? Power trading yields enormous profits without having to ever leave an outpost. There seems to be a disconnect there. Why should someone who plays the game to clear an area fast be punished, but someone who makes more money without clearing any areas at all be left untouched? You can't nerf power traders, really, but is it fair to nerf farmers because you CAN nerf their method of income?

EDIT: I'm not saying "NERF POWERTRADING!". I'm just making a point.

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

04 Mar 2010 at 01:07 - 132

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Um, you think most of these people running around with stacks of Armbraces and tens of thousands of ectos farm?

Can someone answer this question: Why is making gobs of money farming with "invincibility" something that can't be permitted, but making obscene amounts of money from things such as cape leechers in gold trim guilds acceptable? Power trading yields enormous profits without having to ever leave an outpost. There seems to be a disconnect there. Why should someone who plays the game to clear an area fast be punished, but someone who makes more money without clearing any areas at all be left untouched? You can't nerf power traders, really, but is it fair to nerf farmers because you CAN nerf their method of income?

What some call power-trading others call scamming, it's pretty much the same thing, sure you give a person what you tell them you're going to give them, but you cheat them out of money and rip off the person you sell it to. Some of it might even get you thrown in jail if it were real items you were dealing with.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

04 Mar 2010 at 01:07 - 133

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

You can't nerf power traders

I don't imagine it's so hard to keep a vague eye on high-end trades and wipe the inventories + xunlai chests of people who're power trading at the highest levels. As long as it happens often enough that they whine about it on forums and make everyone aware it's happening, power trading will be hugely discouraged. Especially for those with exceedingly rare items, they won't want, say, a mini Vizu to get deleted because they got caught power trading.

But, that's what an awesome developer (like Valve*) would do; Anet wouldn't.

*the whole idling fiasco

AlsPals

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Sellin hot stock tips for pro[fit]

Me/E

04 Mar 2010 at 03:22 - 134

You guys are totally off topic, but to the guy who said a Power Trader is scamming, know this: If the customer is ULTIMATELY happy with his purchase, everyone wins. Farmers like to get back to farming ASAP, so they dump goods at what they find are fair prices. Power Traders keep market supply up, even if its for a higher price. When you pay a higher price, you are paying for convenience. If you know what its like trying to farm for Elemental Swords pre-eotn, or Crystaline swords from the HoH chest, you realize you paying a premium allows you to get on with your business much sooner than you trying to farm it for yourself. Altruism is nice and all, but demonizing powertraders because they wanna make a profit is stupid. Unlike for the most part IRL, middlemen in online markets help alot more than people are willing to give credit for. Im sure you wouldnt prefer in a new game, when people find outstanding new items, you never get to see them. No wiki entries...no screen shots...just you asking "What is that?" and getting no response.

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

04 Mar 2010 at 04:11 - 135

You guys have had your fun, either stay on topic or I'll close the thread.

For those who are as confused about the topic as I, I think it's something whiney about solo farming being nerfed.

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

04 Mar 2010 at 04:32 - 136

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

Altruism is nice and all, but demonizing powertraders because they wanna make a profit is stupid.

people demonize farming calling it a degenerate playstyle, i don't see why people should be called stupid for expressing their opinions on powertraders

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

If the customer is ULTIMATELY happy with his purchase, everyone wins.

because exploiting someone's ignorance of prices is all fine and dandy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

Power Traders keep market supply up, even if its for a higher price. When you pay a higher price, you are paying for convenience.

farmers keep supply up, get your shit straight, powertraders stand around scamming all day for profit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

Farmers like to get back to farming ASAP, so they dump goods at what they find are fair prices.

i find it funny how when i sell my crap in kamadan, i tend to sell cheap just so i can go back to HA/vq/whateverthehell i'm doing, and no matter how reasonable i try to be with my pricing, i get some silly little twit pming me with lowball offers. it ould be one thing if powertraders made reasonable fair offers, but they constantly lowball to save any penny they can for extra profit on the next person they rip off.

in terms of legitimacy, farming > power trading IMO.

Dusk_

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

04 Mar 2010 at 05:04 - 137

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

people demonize farming calling it a degenerate playstyle, i don't see why people should be called stupid for expressing their opinions on powertraders
because exploiting someone's ignorance of prices is all fine and dandy.

farmers keep supply up, get your shit straight, powertraders stand around scamming all day for profit.

i find it funny how when i sell my crap in kamadan, i tend to sell cheap just so i can go back to HA/vq/whateverthehell i'm doing, and no matter how reasonable i try to be with my pricing, i get some silly little twit pming me with lowball offers. it ould be one thing if powertraders made reasonable fair offers, but they constantly lowball to save any penny they can for extra profit on the next person they rip off.

in terms of legitimacy, farming > power trading IMO.

You are a complete idiot...

So you're saying the bartering system is criminal? People have been taking advantage of differing individual price points for centuries. The only reason you haven't noticed it is because you buy everything from massive corporations who sell by the thousands, and couldn't care less about finding the optimal sale price from a single customer.

And by the way, these "lowball" offers that you're acting so pissy about are completely natural. It's called haggling. Look it up.

Rampage

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

04 Mar 2010 at 05:17 - 138

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

farmers keep supply up, get your shit straight, powertraders stand around scamming all day for profit.

i find it funny how when i sell my crap in kamadan, i tend to sell cheap just so i can go back to HA/vq/whateverthehell i'm doing, and no matter how reasonable i try to be with my pricing, i get some silly little twit pming me with lowball offers. it ould be one thing if powertraders made reasonable fair offers, but they constantly lowball to save any penny they can for extra profit on the next person they rip off.

You sir, are a retard. How exactly is power trading scamming? You buy an item for a low price by haggling and convincing, and you sell it for a higher price. The seller is fine with the price, the buyer is fine with the price. Where's the scamming in that? Oh right, nowhere. It's not scamming, it's not ripping off. Don't be mad that people make more e-money from standing around in Kamadan than you do wasting hours farming shit.

The-Bigz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid

We Roll Pros [POD]

A/W

04 Mar 2010 at 05:21 - 139

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

You sir, are a retard. How exactly is power trading scamming? You buy an item for a low price by haggling and convincing, and you sell it for a higher price. The seller is fine with the price, the buyer is fine with the price. Where's the scamming in that? Oh right, nowhere. It's not scamming, it's not ripping off. Don't be mad that people make more e-money from standing around in Kamadan than you do wasting hours farming shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

You are a complete idiot...

So you're saying the bartering system is criminal? People have been taking advantage of differing individual price points for centuries. The only reason you haven't noticed it is because you buy everything from massive corporations who sell by the thousands, and couldn't care less about finding the optimal sale price from a single customer.

And by the way, these "lowball" offers that you're acting so pissy about are completely natural. It's called haggling. Look it up.

You shall now be flamed for saying that using logic and brain cells over repetitive boring shit is lame for abusing natural human stupidity and impatience. Wait wut?

Yawgmoth

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

04 Mar 2010 at 05:35 - 140

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If you leave the game degenerate, you will lose players.

If you nerf popular farms, you will lose players.

100% true. And that's why they should act really FAST with the PvE nerfs. There's nothing to wait, it's not PvP, mobs around the world won't adapt and find counterstrategies, just admit doing a mistake, say sorry and NERF. Don't let imba degenerate shit run for weeks/months/years or players get used to it as if it was something normal. React immediately when something appears to be vastly overpowered, seriously, in cases of SF and Ursan it was obvious mere days if not hours after the skills became public. Just say "sorry, we made a mistake" and nerf quick.

Rampage

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

04 Mar 2010 at 05:46 - 141

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

100% true. And that's why they should act really FAST with the PvE nerfs. There's nothing to wait, it's not PvP, mobs around the world won't adapt and find counterstrategies, just admit doing a mistake, say sorry and NERF. Don't let imba degenerate shit run for weeks/months/years or players get used to it as if it was something normal. React immediately when something appears to be vastly overpowered, seriously, in cases of SF and Ursan it was obvious mere days if not hours after the skills became public. Just say "sorry, we made a mistake" and nerf quick.

I completely agree.

If ANet did something about ursan and SF right away (like they should have), the community wouldn't have known about the power the skills had, they wouldn't have gotten used to clearing shit super fast with no effort, and no one would have really cared. Too bad ANet would rather get a bunch of people pissed as opposed to actually being decent, admitting they made something insanely overpowered, and actually balanced their game.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

04 Mar 2010 at 08:24 - 142

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

One of the biggest misunderstandings, yet often brought up. But still a misunderstanding: In other games players are farming gear to become stronger: = time. In GW players are spending just as much time in unlocking the necessary skillsets. To spend time on getting gear or on unlocking skills, its just the same. There IS no difference with other games if you bring it back to the basics: how much time you spend to become stronger...

No misunderstanding. I know how other games work when compared to GW.

But admitedly, the playerbase has been focusing more on activities that take time (farming, grinding...) and the game itself evolved: most of the "new" content added in the last two years was hi-end gear inaccessible without hardcore farming, most of the relevant balance updates revolved around farming builds...

Having time to farm and grind it's not strictly mandatory, as it is in, say, WoW. But the new focus on "time" served to artificially extended the game lifespan. Go check the common counter argument: "Farming is all I have left to do in the game, take it away and I'll quit", or the endless discussions about grinding for rep-titles. Not mandatory, but so widespread and required by players themselves that giving up with grinding today pretty much means giving up with significant parts of the game. If you're not into farming and grinding, completing the 4 games doesn't take that much, and then the game is pretty much over.

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

04 Mar 2010 at 09:48 - 143

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

and that is precisely why there was no problem

Bug John, you conveniently ignored his remark about how it does affect his gameplay:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

... most people just tell me to "get a run" if I try to LFG X Dungeon

Then there is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tramp

Well good luck finding your balanced group, cuz you wont. You have better be a sin or use x/sin using SF or you are not getting into the uw/fow/doa groups.

If that doesn't illustrate how SF affects other people's gameplay, I don't know what will.

Running them has become the standard for missions and dungeons

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3ScVRiFm3A

There's something odd with their mindset when developpers of an RPG require customers to limit their RPG characters to one specific character class - and build - if they're to get into groups with other players.

Hearing this, if this is the direction they are taking I don't have much hope for GW2 as RPG. But it's their game, they can take it anyway they want, and I can take my money anywhere I want.

It's the same thing as it was with Ursan all over again.

Pandora's box

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Netherlands

Mo/W

04 Mar 2010 at 11:21 - 144

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

No misunderstanding. I know how other games work when compared to GW.

But admitedly, the playerbase has been focusing more on activities that take time (farming, grinding...) and the game itself evolved: most of the "new" content added in the last two years was hi-end gear inaccessible without hardcore farming, most of the relevant balance updates revolved around farming builds...

Having time to farm and grind it's not strictly mandatory, as it is in, say, WoW. But the new focus on "time" served to artificially extended the game lifespan. Go check the common counter argument: "Farming is all I have left to do in the game, take it away and I'll quit", or the endless discussions about grinding for rep-titles. Not mandatory, but so widespread and required by players themselves that giving up with grinding today pretty much means giving up with significant parts of the game. If you're not into farming and grinding, completing the 4 games doesn't take that much, and then the game is pretty much over.

I agree with you so far that it is inevitable that players go find ways to extend gameplaying when everything is done. Take Dragon Age: Game of the year 2009. Yet hardly anyone plays it longer than 2 months. Because you've seen it all by than. The biggest advantage of a game like GW is that the game environment is HUGE. So many things to explore, so many quests to do. And when they are done there is still a lot to gather: skills you missed, itemupgrades, fashion if you like... This includes farming. No problem! That is: as long as the game focus is threat everyone equally and not give advantage to those who update changed skillsets in 1 day. Like those who now found new ways to use SF, where others who return to the game during the next months look puzzled when the skill no longer works (just an example, like I earlier said, this is not about SF, but about nerfing in general). Which brings me to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Which is why the skills need to be balanced so that you can become strong with a few early skills you have access too and any elite for your profession, as opposed to only one or two truly being viable.

I think they plan something like that in GW2: a limited skillset. That game will be much like Propehcies in the beginning, a smaller world, no heroes, and some new things like that underwater level. And a level cap of course. Yet I wonder how people stay focussed on gameplay in such an environment. Players want to expand their abillities. Once that stops, they quit playing. Sure a balanced skillset is great at the start.
But imo an evergrowing and therefore less balanced skillset is much more interesting. I think much of the reasoning why to change skills is just between the ears. Really, do you thing more people would quit playing if you let skills unchanged than the number of people leaving after every 'balance'?

Shasgaliel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

[bomb]

04 Mar 2010 at 12:37 - 145

The issue is not about farming elitism etc the issue is that people (including myself) treat game too seriously and would like full control over what is happening there. Also changes if you are too emotional about them produce sense of lost and that sense drives people far from the game and makes them frustrated. For me people who left the game already are bigger loss than any possible build change.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

04 Mar 2010 at 14:48 - 146

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

If that doesn't illustrate how SF affects other people's gameplay, I don't know what will.

Running them has become the standard for missions and dungeons

This is not targeted at you specifically I'm just pointing out the disconnect here. Tramp neglected to mention that you won't find those so-called balanced groups either way. If they completely removed farming from the game tomorrow the flurry of activity in popular staging outposts would vanish. The people that remain would choose h/h, 2+6 or some other mix with friends, alliance or guild. The hardcore PuG crowd is going to complain no matter what happens because of the quality of people they are left with. It takes initiative to make a good PuG. That means reworking builds from the ground up and finding people receptive to hearing that Defy tanking sucks. Let's be clear, I don't dungeon run I may have done CoF twice ever but that's it. Looking at the available options to players however it's not a tough choice between running duo (or trio based on the new build) in say Rragar's versus wasting a hour getting builds, bathroom and drinks straight in a staging outpost with a PuG.

DRGN

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

In Memorium [iBot]

Mo/A

04 Mar 2010 at 15:41 - 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

This is not targeted at you specifically I'm just pointing out the disconnect here. Tramp neglected to mention that you won't find those so-called balanced groups either way. If they completely removed farming from the game tomorrow the flurry of activity in popular staging outposts would vanish. The people that remain would choose h/h, 2+6 or some other mix with friends, alliance or guild. The hardcore PuG crowd is going to complain no matter what happens because of the quality of people they are left with. It takes initiative to make a good PuG. That means reworking builds from the ground up and finding people receptive to hearing that Defy tanking sucks. Let's be clear, I don't dungeon run I may have done CoF twice ever but that's it. Looking at the available options to players however it's not a tough choice between running duo (or trio based on the new build) in say Rragar's versus wasting a hour getting builds, bathroom and drinks straight in a staging outpost with a PuG.

Well put. There's always a mentality about what builds need to be run, and there's always a segment of the base that thinks they are being left out and neglected. Remember back in the day when everyone fapped to monk + tank + echo nukers? That was considered "balanced", and there were endless complaints about how that system left people out, forced people into certain roles/classes, etc. Or 5-man Oro/FA where you might be lucky if you were an Ele to get a group, but otherwise it was gear tank + 2 monks + 2 necros. Now the pendulum had swung the other direction where you're being forced into playing Shadow Form and all that crap if you want to get a PUG group.

Holy shit, PUGs force you into a certain build. Why are you all acting as if that's NEW? When have PUGs in this game every done ANYTHING besides shoehorn people into certain roles or be a smattering of random players who wipe to the first mob of Aaxtes? I don't particularly like it, but that's how it's been for a long time now, before Shadow Form and assassins were even in the game. It'd be nice if it were different, but it's been that way as long as I can remember. I would really like to know what version of GW you guys have been playing where PUGs weren't degenerate/cookie cutter...

Also, as an aside: From the people who are on Test Krewe that I talked to, they felt Anet utterly ignored them, so blaming them probably isn't all that fair. That's all I can say about that.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

04 Mar 2010 at 16:01 - 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

100% true. And that's why they should act really FAST with the PvE nerfs. There's nothing to wait, it's not PvP, mobs around the world won't adapt and find counterstrategies, just admit doing a mistake, say sorry and NERF. Don't let imba degenerate shit run for weeks/months/years or players get used to it as if it was something normal. React immediately when something appears to be vastly overpowered, seriously, in cases of SF and Ursan it was obvious mere days if not hours after the skills became public. Just say "sorry, we made a mistake" and nerf quick.

Amen. I've been saying that for years. ANet needs two things that haven't always been present in the past to make such a policy work:

- A good working definition of imba
- Willingness to admit mistakes swiftly

If those two things happen, PvE can be maintained.

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

04 Mar 2010 at 16:07 - 149

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Well put. There's always a mentality about what builds need to be run, and there's always a segment of the base that thinks they are being left out and neglected. Remember back in the day when everyone fapped to monk + tank + echo nukers? That was considered "balanced", and there were endless complaints about how that system left people out, forced people into certain roles/classes, etc. Or 5-man Oro/FA where you might be lucky if you were an Ele to get a group, but otherwise it was gear tank + 2 monks + 2 necros. Now the pendulum had swung the other direction where you're being forced into playing Shadow Form and all that crap if you want to get a PUG group.

Holy shit, PUGs force you into a certain build. Why are you all acting as if that's NEW? When have PUGs in this game every done ANYTHING besides shoehorn people into certain roles or be a smattering of random players who wipe to the first mob of Aaxtes? I don't particularly like it, but that's how it's been for a long time now, before Shadow Form and assassins were even in the game. It'd be nice if it were different, but it's been that way as long as I can remember. I would really like to know what version of GW you guys have been playing where PUGs weren't degenerate/cookie cutter...

Also, as an aside: From the people who are on Test Krewe that I talked to, they felt Anet utterly ignored them, so blaming them probably isn't all that fair. That's all I can say about that.

Who's saying imbalance is new? Most people are merely stating that Anet should be attempting to fix imbalances as they come, as opposed to letting them sit for years to the point where people leave and there is never any balance.

Mireles

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2009

W/Me

04 Mar 2010 at 19:01 - 150

Quote:

Originally Posted by cognophile

So, it's not just about people blindly hating a certain play style if that play style has a visible negative effect on a player's ability to find or form a group.

Yes last time a checked this was a MMORPG... the 2nd M for multiplayer implies non-solo. If were all just going exploit the game to skip content and call it fun, we should just bring ursan back so everyone can participate.

Personally, I like the challenge of impossible odds or what the normal person feels is impossible and require critical thinking(problem with this is most ppl don't like to think), not repetition labor for currency...That is called a Job... Because if there was no such challenges, we should just give everyone everything they want and make everything valueless.

The idea that we should make it better to play solo and a certain set of builds is ridiculous... What farming a solo turns things into is who can collect the most and how fast. Causing solo competitiveness instead of cooperative teamwork.

If you want solo back, you need to go back to console games or find something more socially filling.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

04 Mar 2010 at 19:15 - 151

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Yes last time a checked this was a MMORPG... the 2nd M for multiplayer implies non-solo. If were all just going exploit the game to skip content and call it fun, we should just bring ursan back so everyone can participate.

Personally, I like the challenge of impossible odds or what the normal person feels is impossible and require critical thinking(problem with this is most ppl don't like to think), not repetition labor for currency...That is called a Job... Because if there was no such challenges, we should just give everyone everything they want and make everything valueless.

The idea that we should make it better to play solo and a certain set of builds is ridiculous... What farming a solo turns things into is who can collect the most and how fast. Causing solo competitiveness instead of cooperative teamwork.

If you want solo back, you need to go back to console games or find something more socially filling.

Heroes and Henchmen, "OMG Pug sucks I'll play with my little group of guildies forever!", Powertraders.

Deakon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Arkansas

Just The Four Of Us [TRIO]

Mo/E

04 Mar 2010 at 21:10 - 152

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Yes last time a checked this was a MMORPG... the 2nd M for multiplayer implies non-solo.

I thought multi-player meant that there's more than one player. H/H allows you to play solo pretty much anywhere in GW with the exception of obvious areas like DoA etc..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Personally, I like the challenge of impossible odds or what the normal person feels is impossible and require critical thinking(problem with this is most ppl don't like to think), not repetition labor for currency...That is called a Job... Because if there was no such challenges, we should just give everyone everything they want and make everything valueless.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that. The main difference between, say you and I, is that my career demands critical thinking over mindless repetition. When I "play a game", I prefer to take a break from thinking and just enjoy mindlessly destroying imaginary bad guys. But I don't feel the need to force others to my style of play.

Everyone that was for the recent "update" will tell you that it has nothing to do with the rewards. They support nerfing imba builds and OP skills because it goes against the true intent of team-play. "The way it was intended to be played." They reiterate the fact that it's not wealth or e-peen envy. They want the option to play strictly for the enjoyment of putting together a balanced team and working together to accomplish goals.

So... here's the perfect solution to the speed clears, over-farming and dungeon runs. Remove the rewards. Remove all ecto, obby shards, gemstones, etc. etc. The SC'ers would no longer have a reason to exist. The farmers wouldn't have anything of worth to farm non-stop. The dungeon runners wouldn't have anyone needing the run more than once so there'd be no reason for them to bother anymore.

That would leave all the purists to have the freedom they want... they can put together teams and do anything they want because nobody will be providing lazier options. Since they're not interested in the "rewards" other than the satisfaction of the original "intent" of team-spirit, they would be happy. Well... unless they were not being truthful about the wealth and e-peen envy.

DRGN

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

In Memorium [iBot]

Mo/A

04 Mar 2010 at 21:40 - 153

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Who's saying imbalance is new? Most people are merely stating that Anet should be attempting to fix imbalances as they come, as opposed to letting them sit for years to the point where people leave and there is never any balance.

No one is actually saying it. They're just acting like it, such as few pages back who were like "Good luck getting a group if you aren't SF" as though not being able to get in a PUG without being forced into a specific role is A)Something that everyone already doesn't know and B)Anything new. If that's not the reason they can't run a "balanced" group(that they can't get PUGs to do it), then I would like to know what it is. It's not like there's a port like in old Tombs that says "Only players with Shadow Form can enter this area".

I agree wholeheartedly that the problem comes when stuff is left unfixed for a long time.The difference is that before, something new always came along to replace the old builds so that they didn't stagnate for an extremely prolonged period. GW being on life support means this pattern has hit a dead end. I also have to wonder what Anet wanted people to do if 600/smite, SF, and Obby Flesh all really did become completely useless. Were we to go back to pulling one mob at a time in a gigantic area like DoA and tediously killing them individually? Is that what people who champion balance consider fun? If it is, that's fine, but say so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

If you want solo back, you need to go back to console games or find something more socially filling.

And this is why I don't understand it when people say "No one is telling you how you should play the game" when you have people like this saying to gtfo and play another game if you don't want to play like they do. Am I really supposed to interpret that any other way? That entire post was about what you like and how you think the game should be played. You wanna play it that way? That's up to you. This idea that we have no right to object and need to just sit back and quietly take any change that comes our way is really getting old.

Also, if any mod is paying attention, would it be acceptable to make a new thread on the power trading vs farming issue I brought up on the previous page? It's a question I have wanted answered for quite a long time now, but it got buried and it was probably too far off-topic as it was, and the answers sparked another tangent and brought up some bizarro idea about monitoring forums for sales.

esthetic

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2008

Fantasy Island

[Qtie]

R/Mo

04 Mar 2010 at 22:06 - 154

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

So... here's the perfect solution to the speed clears, over-farming and dungeon runs. Remove the rewards. Remove all ecto, obby shards, gemstones, etc. etc. The SC'ers would no longer have a reason to exist. The farmers wouldn't have anything of worth to farm non-stop. The dungeon runners wouldn't have anyone needing the run more than once so there'd be no reason for them to bother anymore.

That would leave all the purists to have the freedom they want... they can put together teams and do anything they want because nobody will be providing lazier options. Since they're not interested in the "rewards" other than the satisfaction of the original "intent" of team-spirit, they would be happy. Well... unless they were not being truthful about the wealth and e-peen envy.

/signed well actually QFT

I have to think ANet is trying to maximize its value by trying to keep people happy and spending money. I have to think that the actions they have taken since the release of NF follow along these lines. Unfortunately, by not fixing XTH and spending time and other resources on nerfing, in the name of getting rid of imba, they have not succeeded and actually caused decrease in the value of GW, leaving players frustrated to the point of quitting. (I would love to see ANet 2009 and 2010 monthly income/expense stmts. to match up ANets actions and immediate impact on profit/loss) I believe ANet relied on the suggestions of self interested players with loud voices, not representative of the player base. ANet should go to a more open forum such as in game suggestions and voting on proposed changes before they make any more changes.

Now the cynical side of me thinks that ANet may not be listening to the players but maybe just trying to keep costs down, get rid of some people(inside and out), reduce cost of maintenance, with the least impact to the value of the company. And these objectives are the driving force of their actions. In which case I would say they cut too much and have hurt the franchise more than they expected.

Deakon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Arkansas

Just The Four Of Us [TRIO]

Mo/E

04 Mar 2010 at 22:38 - 155

Quote:

Originally Posted by esthetic

/signed

Now the cynical side of me thinks that ANet may not be listening to the players but maybe just trying to keep costs down, get rid of some people(inside and out), reduce cost of maintenance, with the least impact to the value of the company. And these objectives are the driving force of their actions. In which case I would say they cut too much and have hurt the franchise more than they expected.

THAT is exactly what I think too! It's not cynical, it's logical. It makes perfect sense from a business perspective.

I wish Anet would make an official announcement stating that "this is it", no more new content, no more changes to PvE, no more new ANYTHING... "We'll devote what few resources we have left to maintaining balance in PvP." That would be logical AND acceptable. It would probably spark my interest to become more involved in high end PvP like HA, GvG etc. If it were truly (as close as possible anyways) balanced. I've gotten to the point where I can note on my map when quarry flags change colors and tell you which turtle or juggie is about to glitch in JQ.

BTW... it's now quicker to speed clear DT with a solo build than with a team of 8 monks but I guess that's not really saying much anymore. Any guesses as to the profession of the solo build? lol Ass... ass... IN!

Mireles

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2009

W/Me

04 Mar 2010 at 23:04 - 156

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

The main difference between, say you and I, is that my career demands critical thinking over mindless repetition. When I "play a game", I prefer to take a break from thinking and just enjoy mindlessly destroying imaginary bad guys. But I don't feel the need to force others to my style of play.

Notice i said job not career, I am an accountant myself.... I'm just a stickler for math problems

I am not trying to force anyone to do anything, i just think that this kinda game will have to pick between solo, or the playability of multilayer that a MMORPG should provide. Otherwise one type of play will always dominate the other.

Although this is not the only causeof decreased multilayer playability. There is also the existence of builds so far superior to other builds that there are no reasons for other skills even professions to exist. Also the introduction of heroes really lowered the incentive for people to team up and work with one another.

Mireles

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2009

W/Me

04 Mar 2010 at 23:27 - 157

Furthermore,

Turbo Ginsu

I despise facebook

Join Date: Feb 2008

Australia

Meeting of the Lost Minds

Me/

04 Mar 2010 at 23:29 - 158

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

I am not trying to force anyone to do anything, i just think that this kinda game will have to pick between solo, or the playability of multilayer that a MMORPG should provide. Otherwise one type of play will always dominate the other.

No offence to you, good sir, Neverwinter Nights says you are wrong. Solo, Party, whatever. It's all good, and there's still no free rides.

Mireles

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2009

W/Me

04 Mar 2010 at 23:39 - 159

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

No offence to you, good sir, Neverwinter Nights says you are wrong. Solo, Party, whatever. It's all good, and there's still no free rides.

I guess I should of said this game, I'm sure it can be done in other games, But in this game... without a major overhaul of the setup... I don't think it could be done effectively.... in my opinion of course.

And by effectively i mean prophecies era, when you said LFG in a mission u had 3-4 group offers no questions asked. Am I the only one missing that?

I think Ursan was the lesser of the evils.... yeah its mindless killing of animated monsters in the same fashion in every area of the game, but everyone got to participate... lol

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

04 Mar 2010 at 23:43 - 160

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

people demonize farming calling it a degenerate playstyle, i don't see why people should be called stupid for expressing their opinions on powertraders
because exploiting someone's ignorance of prices is all fine and dandy.

farmers keep supply up, get your shit straight, powertraders stand around scamming all day for profit.

i find it funny how when i sell my crap in kamadan, i tend to sell cheap just so i can go back to HA/vq/whateverthehell i'm doing, and no matter how reasonable i try to be with my pricing, i get some silly little twit pming me with lowball offers. it ould be one thing if powertraders made reasonable fair offers, but they constantly lowball to save any penny they can for extra profit on the next person they rip off.

in terms of legitimacy, farming > power trading IMO.

I hope you don't do sales for a living because you're destined for epic failure. If I were you I wouldn't invest in stocks either.