What does playing GW "normally" mean? And why?

It doesn't matter to me. Yet it's not me nor the fanciful "elite" to take decisions.

Looks like the developers don't approve SOME ways of playing THEIR game, some playstyles that worked on abuses, and so decided to tone down some skills that allowed these playstyles.

This hasn't changed "my game", but I see their point and second that. That's all. Had no nerf been implemented, I wouldn't have cared either.

A question now: why do people really believe the nerfs were just a matter of players' input? Do you really believe the developers were going to sit there and watch? Do you really think they wouldn't have taken countermeasures if it wasn't for this highly influential "elite"?

Some gimmicks are OBVIOUS abuses, so OBVIOUS that I can't really believe people haven't realized yet. Invincibility is convenient, no doubt, and I don't care if people resort to invincibility. But it's not "normal", so if you really want, go for it as long as it lasts, but you can't expect it to be perfectly acceptable and stay forever, nor a gaming company to allow "whatever you want" in their game. Sorry, you can't do "whatever you want" anywhere in this world, so how's a company-run online game any different? You don't load up, say, Quake III, to go through walls and kill people, while in /godmode. How's that some stuff is considered a cheat in other games, but it's become perfectly acceptable in GW? How come this stuff never, ever ringed a bell in the abusers' minds?

If people enjoy abusing of gimmicks while they last, it doesn't matter to me. Let's call things for what they are tough. ABUSES. Anet doesn't like abuses, yet it did nothing so severe to kill this playstyle. Asking what's wrong with speed clears and generalized abuses simply means being out of touch with reality.

Playing PvE normally doesn't exist because there is not much to play against. The AI and skill bars of monsters are so bad shutdown, pressure and disruption play no role. PvE is really simple: Damage or heal stuff or make stuff invincible. Tank and spank and "balanced" PvE builds both do it, although tank and spank is slightly more organized and planned.

You know, it's called "Devteam". They take their own decisions and, if anything, they've waited for so long just to have the farmers not burst into tears after the nerfs.

Wake up, there's no one dictating anything, the developers are all grown up and don't give a damn. I just see people fooling themselves into believing that invincibility is perfectly fine in an online game. Now that the designers have burst their bubble and made apparent that invincibility IS NOT tollerable, they're hunting for the non-existent culprit.

Talk about the Inquisition... Pfff...

the way it used to be played: with other new players/people.

remember when my guild wars was good and i could play with other willing people in both pvp and pve?

This, however as long as one method is excessively superior other methods aren't particularily viable.

In my opinion "normal" is Following storyline, Pugging etc. just finishing the game doing side quests, not farming etc.

To me, playing normally means sitting there watching heroes and spirits play.

Don't give me "play with people" bullshit, there are no people who I can play with, the people I used to play with haven't played GW in years. Even ZQ is filled with retards.

You all know what "playing normally" means. We're splitting hair about something as obvious as Earth being round.

Unless you really think that's perfectly "normal" to do a U-turn and drive the wrong way in a driving simulator and such. It IS possible, and some people probably think it's fun and love to do that all day. Do that, as long as you do that on your computer and do not involve anyone else in the process, but you cannot bring into question this not being the way the game was meant to be played.

Play with people?

Every time I bring up that aspect in other threads I get the old play with H/h or ditch your guild for another better guild speech.

Seriously??? You must have missed all the Please Nerf XXX threads for the last two years. Sorry Gill too much history here.

Edit:

Sorry your join date 2008 change to 2 years

I completely understand Anet's desire to not let the game turn into a situation where everyone is playing the same class and using the same group of skills. It's not good for the company's need to market the game as being a massively varied experience where you can play any of the classes and try out tons of combinations of spells (and still be effective). It would be a knock on GW2 if we can expect that within a month or so, there is only a single build that everyone is using to complete higher end areas of the game and that's all we can expect.

What I don't understand is the animosity that goes around here toward other players that choose to utilize those broken aspects of the game. Geez, the game is long over the hill, if people are still able to find enjoyment doing....whatever.... more power to them!

Ah, I see, so basically you're saying that they have so little mental faculty that they need to come here and implement whatever people ask them. Yeah, right, that must be the reason why some classes are still underpowered and underused: no one, EVER, opens up threads about Mesmers, Paragon, Dervishes and Rangers so that they can take a hint or two... *rolleyes*

Let's assume this is how it actually worked, even if it makes absolutely no sense:

- So many complaints, this can't be a minority.
- ANet ignored the complaints about permaSF and 600/Smite for almost 2 years, so for 2 years the farmers' minority dictated.
- This minority is grasping at straws now that some abusable absurdity such as permanent invincibility has been taken out of the game. Now. After 2 years of complaints, while in any decent online game something like this would have been killed in a matter of days.

So, if there's anyone dictating, it's the other way 'round. ANet has this bad habit of giving the whiners too much credit and wait 'till it's late to do something.

Normal play is defined by a team with a frontline, a backline and a midline.

Frontline deals damage and body block, plus a few other utility.

Backline heals and protect.

Midline provides both offense and defense, support and utility.

That is the ideal team for guildwars.

Now farming can be fun too - especially the fast ones like old vermin, to kill a few minutes before people showed up or just a few minutes of your break or whatever.

The main problem of the game is that farm and teams that don't use the back-mid-front line scheme are much faster.

Additionally to that most areas suck in terms of drops - killing all mobs is bad business unless you are vanquishing or solo farming. Skipping as much as you can to go to the end chest is much more rewarding.

For example Ecto drop rates have been lowered several times to prevent solo farmers, but that also impact on teams that rely/want to kill all mobs.

A back-mid-front line team that do UW and will kill all enemies can take like 2-3 hours and can see something 3-4 ectos for the total team. By skipping all you can you can do UW with the same back-mid-front line team in half the time and you only lose those 3-4 ectos per team.

I've always enjoyed FoW much more for the simple reason a team killing everything will see its average member get like 3-4 shards and pretty much every member will get a couple before chest.

Normal play is exactly what it sounds like, to you. Normal play. Now, of course... Normal play varies depending on the person but normal play should include enjoyment of said game. If one stops enjoying it, time to move on.

Wow, you got all that from my one line? Impressive assumptions, wrong but impressive.

Back on topic, you think normal play is what you stated earlier(no gimmicks skipping stuff, walls of text stuff) more power to you!

I think you should do what you want to (exceptions are bots, hacking, blah blah blah). Enjoy the game Gill!

I keep seeing the term 'abuse'... A skill exists because ANet have created it and made it available to use. We are simply using those skills, not abusing them. A certain combination of skills that performs better than any another combination is unbalanced, nothing more. If ANet doesn't like it, they can change it. It was their decision to leave those unbalanced play-styles in game for so, so long, and it's inevitable that some newer players will have never experienced a GW without such features. For these people it will seem like a nerf, but for those with longer memories it surely feels more like a return to the norm, or at least turn in that direction.

That aside... I miss my 600/smite! This was my 'normal'.

Abuse-Improper treatment or usage; application to a wrong or bad purpose; misuse; perversion

Speed clears pervert ArenaNet's idea for the game, hence it is abuse.

1.) I think what most people refer as playing normally is to play through the game questing and doing missions and not having your character ran to various spots because your toon is too weak to actually do it yourself and quite frankly doesn't belong in the desert at Lvl 3, crying " I need a group someone help me ".

2.) I could care less how other players play but there are some things that I do care about. The mentality of it's okay to use bots and allow gold farmers to have their way is completely unacceptable. A lot of your farmers fall into this category and are by far the biggest whinners and those that will start threads in support of allowing this behavior. To the guy that wants to simply do an area over and over again to try to farm ectos or get a shiney weapon, I have no problem with that. It's when the player is no longer in control and they automate it that I have a huge problem with it.

I think a large part of what your seeing now though is the partial decline of the GW community as a whole though. I've been playing since the release of the initial beta and sorry but not bored or think the game is dying here. What I've seen though is the vast majority of players wanting everything and wanting it now. There's a vast majority that simply want the rewards without the work and to that I wonder why buy a game you don't intend to play ? save us all the hassle and go to Ebay, buy your trinkets, snap a screen shot, and uninstall the game. I also run a small guild and 95% of players we have tried to recently recruit from GURU and INC gamers ( the two biggest elite fan sites ) simply get thrown back out the door. They either can't play well with others, want everything now, or expect the guild to simply drop what they are doing once they jump on to hold their hand for what they want to do at that moment. Quite frankly most players are greedy selfish bastages and anymore it's the ones that cry the loudest that seem to get noticed.

You're going to find that most players don't PUG anymore because of some of the reasons I've mentioned above. A lot of experienced players have also already made those friends list and have folks they can call on to help them in areas where they will need help. I'm all for helping new players but if they fail to even try or need someone to hold their hand 24/7 they will get no help what so ever. I would honestly never join a PUG for any reason what so ever. There is only a handful of areas I can think of that would require another live body.

No, it's not what I think. THAT's:

- The way the game was conceived
- The way the gameplay was designed
- The way most similar games are played

-> what people usually define as "normal"(="conventional") play. The gameplay as originally designed and "meant to be played". You can't really believe the developers wanted players to rely on invincibility when designing PvE, do you?

We're used to some gimmicks today, yet that DOESN'T make them "normal"(="conventional"). Common, widespread and now widely accepted as alternative gameplay methods, but not "normal" in the strict meaning of the term.

That's just to answer to the first question. I'm no way trying to say "conventional" > "non-conventional" and vice-versa. People hopefully play whatever they like, picking up among the options allowed.

No skill can be used any other way than that prescribed by ANet. Hence there can be no abuse.

I dont think there is a definition for normal play. We should all play in a manner we find the most fun, and these styles of play should never negatively impact each other. For example, I enjoy vanquishing and dungeoning randomway with my guildies or with H/H. This is normal play for me. Someone else's normal play may be farming. As long as these styles of play do not have a negative impact on each other, everything is fine. Now I would say that farming does have somewhat of an impact on nonfarmers as it skews the economy in a way that nonfarmers can not compete for high-end equipment... but really... what does it matter? Just go out and have some fun. That is normal play.

Normal, for me, is however I feel like playing, with little or no regard for the reward received. As a corollary, I reject the notion that people just so happen to feel like doing whatever farm or elite mission run is popular at the moment, over and over again for hours at a time, because it's "fun"; to me, that's abnormal play, because you wouldn't be doing what you're doing if not for the carrot on the stick. This isn't to say that I've never farmed, because I do think that going out and slaughtering mobs on your own can be fun, and finding ways to break the game is certainly a past-time for some people, but more hours and hours at a time, day after day, with little change in your run, area, or build...no, I don't think that's "normal".

As for why it affects me: because in order to be wealthy, you can either play abnormally, or play with 8-man parties of friends, guildies, or h/h and take 10x or more to make an equivalent amount of money. I said I don't choose where I play based on the rewards I get, but I do still want access to said rewards at some attainable point, and I don't think it's unreasonable to only want to spend, say, 5x as long playing "normally" to make an equivalent amount of money as someone who's dedicating himself solely to the pursuit of gold. It's a game, first and foremost.

I'll add that I'm happy with the nerfs. SF was toned down so it takes some thought without being a "God Mode" button, it was re-extended so that everyone can use it, which somewhat tones down the extreme profession discrimination we've seen in elite areas, and it's still a viable farming build without being the absolute best build ever made, so it's not like people can really QQ all that hard.

So that's why "invincibility is unacceptible" right?

imo gw was built as an 8man team game. so normal play is defined as such (no, 8 farmers running off in different directions does not count). there are exceptions with areas that have 6 or 4man teams, these are mere progress areas where the player is not yet lvl20 and still learning the game. there are also 12man teams which are exceptional elite areas that provide greater challenge.

btw, in no way should gw be limited only to "normal" playing methods.

This, but the other methods should have similar efficiency to the "normal" method.

yes, my definition of "normal" play was not "normal" play in a strict sense, rather (my interpretation of) the "intended" gameplay by the devs. "intended" gameplay and what actually becomes the "normal" are two very different things. if a gimmick method becomes the most efficient method of play and everyone starts playing that gimmick, then that gimmick in essence now becomes "normal" play.

"normal" play is playing the game in a full group, or nearly full group.

how does the way other people play (or allowed to play) affect people who play normally? Well there are plenty of ways, for example if a lot of soloers/farmers overfarm an area (lets say they are farming greens) then the prices of that green goes down. If a "normal" player has one of those items and wants to sell it, he has to sell it for cheap because of the price drop because of how the soloers/farmers are allowed to play. It's not rocket science.

I thought playing Guild Wars normally meant taking the skills available to you and making as an effective bar as possible...then if your playing with a group you make adjustments to get some synergy going on and be as an effective team as possible.

That's my idea of "normal play"...

I've grown tired of the "normal play" or "the way the game was meant to be played" cheerleaders and their incessant railing against "gimmick" play. These guys come across as being pretty full of themselves, what with their bold assumptions and claiming to know exactly what the devs think and how things "should" be.

If we're to abide the tenets of the cheerleaders' regime, the general consensus for normal play would seem to be any sort of full team, playing the roles in a traditionally balanced grouping, complete with the front/back/mid lines each performing and/or sharing the roles of damage dealing, damage mitigation, and utility. This is all fine and dandy in utopian balanced happy normal land, but the reality is, not everyone shares your world view and is free to run builds limited only by their creativity (or lack thereof).

I don't necessarily feel the need to ascribe to your "normal play" template because 1) I don't have to, and 2) you can't stop me. The only reason any real butthurt happens is if someone comes up with an extremely efficient build designed to exploit the weaknesses in the ai, and now the seemingly hard to get items start becoming a bit more available on the market. People even get upset when other efficient "gimmick" bars are run to help maximize profits on even bullshit rewards, such as dtsc for faction or discord vanquishes. I mean, come on, seriously? Hfff was better? Or amatz farming? Oh, we should all be fa/jq/ab'ing? With or without botting? Please...

No one screams foul when I decide to run a ridiculously inefficient teambuild and act like a jackass, just so long as I'm not "destroying the economy" or "abusing shit" everyone is fine with my non-balanced play. Give me a break. If I'm short on time, ofc I'm going to blow shit up with an overpowered team build. If there's time to mess around and smell the roses, then I'll run something different, maybe, if I feel like it. I'm not going to shelve my beastmaster mesmer or hammer rit or other dumbass bar because I'm supposed to adhere to some sort of idealistic teambuild you think the devs think I should be running.

Now don't misquote me, I'm not saying that some things weren't a bit overpowered and out of control. What I'm getting at is that it seems that some people can't let go of the idea that everything that isn't balanced must therefore be gimmicky and lame, and bad for the game, and ruins the community, and screws the economy, and is the source of all ills of the game, and waaaahhhh. They need to realize that this narrow definition of "normal" essentially limits professions to running a premade bar, say a shock axe or earthshaker warrior, because anything deviating from that template is "gimmicky" and sucks and should be condemned and disallowed. Whatever...

Do everyone a favor and don't presume to know what's best for myself, Anet, or any other player, and you can go ahead and cease and desist with bespewing of the "normal play" dogma. I'm not interested in your belief system outside of the game, spare me from your in-game version as well. Thanks.

As long as "effective teams" don't rely on invincibility and content skipping, that's it.

Com'on guys, do you REALLY have to ask what "normally" (as in "normal" = "conventional") means?

Have you ever played any other game like GW?

How many of those came with a duo that could play through most of the content planned for parties of 8 with little to no problem?

Have you ever played ANY games? You know, those usually have that kind of stuff SCers tend to skip, such as objectives, strategies, techniques, and require some active involvement from the player, not just his character standing in the middle of a mob, waiting for the foes to die while the player keeps the defenses up.

People are playing the fool here.

No one said "normal play" is the best way to play or that everyone should play like that... it's just normal play... just another way

*) Playing with a dedicated frontline, midline and backline. Frontline does the damage, backline keeps everybody alive, midline supports both.

**) Other ways of playing are mostly either more easier or faster, maybe even both. It affects me insofar I don't find much other players who want to play "normally", it also has the effect that rare drops are more common 'cause they are easy and/or faster to acquire, presumable lowering lowering its price. It's discussible if that's a good or bad thing.

This.

OP asked what "normal" means. When people talk about "playing normally", they just mean playing the most conventional way, classic, traditional, that's about it.

This thread is not for discussing which way is the best, since this is a matter of personal tastes anyway. OP asked for a definition. He/she got plenty, pretty much coincident each other.

It's no secret that "unconventional ways" of playing the game are subject of more attention from the developers tough. When we reach the "abuse", they will get nerfed.

Exactly.

I like small farms and I like to be able to go with teams with some humans (friends and guildies mostly) and heroes fulfilling the leftover roles.

What I would like is that killing mobs actually meant drops. I wish a gold weapon would be something nice to have instead "another 19% damage while under 50% health weapon that has a skin that I could use but since is from prophecies is actually worth the merchant price".

Or that I could finish an area that I'm doing with a team at least as fast someone can solo it. It is a bit stupid when someone can finish an area easier/faster than a full team.

it doesnt take a degree in physics to figure out the general idea of what normal play is or isn't. In many cases its completely obvious: Is farming UW, the "last" dungeon in the game with 2-3 character "normal", of course not! No one here claims to know the EXACT definition of "normal" but we do claim to know the general idea of it, and that is not a ridiculous claim to make.

What I am saying is that I reject the notion that a deviation from the authorized and sanctioned balanced teambuild, as inferred by people in this thread as being the most in alignment with the spirit of the way the game was originally designed to be played, should be held in contempt and dismissed as gimmick bullshit because it does not follow the convention previously mentioned. That is a very common attitude, that everyone straying from the generally agreed upon, ideal, balanced team template is a degenerate shitter. Not a very healthy attitude imo.

Normal is subjective. The way the game was meant to be played is subjective. Our individual views of what is overpowered and what is acceptable and fair game are subjective. Of course people will derive enjoyment/entertainment from the various methods offered by the way this game is designed. Normal for me is probably very different from many people's view of normal, or maybe it's not, I don't know.

Where we run into trouble is when people begin to assume, on behalf of others, what normal should be, and thus try to drive an agenda towards changing things towards their version of normal, and it begins to encroach on my style of play. When people start shouting, "Thou shalt adhere to blabla teambuild, lest ye shall be shunned and flogged and farted at" and I don't happen to feel like running the holy teambuild according to the gospel of the true believers, I shouldn't have to.

All I'm saying really is that I don't care for people trying to force their flavor of normal on me when I'm doing just fine over here w/my own personal normal. You might normally wear pants when you are sitting at the computer doing your srs gw bsns. Just because you wear pants doesn't mean that I should have to, you feel me?

I have not read every single post, but I don't think that a pure balanced team is the only "normal" way to play the game. Gimmicks are what people are most mad about, and it's usually very clear what is a gimmicky build.

How the game is meant to played is not subjective, the game designers established that during development, during launch and during every patch. They own the game, they decide how its meant to be played, players just offer suggestions and vote with their money. And again, its usually fairly obvious when something is consistent with how the developers intended the game to be played.

Also, if you want to see how a player playing "non-normally" can affect a "normal" player look at my first post in this thread, i dont want to type it all out again.

I have fed the flames and trolled enough on this topic to just throw in a quick reminder.

This is the 4th QQ 'Hao r we PvE nao that game developer stop us from doeing thing nao?'. QQ in the original threads or something. They made the game, they can change it as they see fit. And the whole 'I r spend money i r important' and also the brief political references in here:

Just because I pay taxes and vote doesn't mean the shit I want to happen does happen. Also. Guild Wars at its most cost effective brought in 160 dollars for all campaigns/expansions per person. I can make that in 2 8 hours shifts where I work. If you think of it like that, your suddenly not a big deal as a single player, and your opinion doesn't really matter. Larger amount of whiners for the same whining topic (Solo farm) = A-Net makes attempt to nerf solo farm.

How they are the developers/coders/law and order of the game and can't control which direction it goes is beyond me.

Cliff Notes: How you think the game 'should' be played and is 'normal' does not matter. You do not write the coding, and you as a consumer are not that important to A-Net as a company. Now if you had invested thousands that would be another thing.

I would find it hard to argue that ANet thought invincibility was unacceptable given the duration that they left the SF skill combination in play. Who believes that the devs had no idea how powerful SF would be? If they didn't figure it out at the inception of the skill then the number of builds available and vast amounts of forum content bemoaning/praising them would be a bit of a give-away and as soon as they knew this they should have reduced its capability. If the game allows for invincibility what else did they really think the players were going to do?

Back on topic:

Personally, I believe that ANet let SF exist solely to sell units, which is good business sense on the one hand, but what effect might this recent balance have on the prospective sales of GW2 to the current player-base. Who knows? I can only speak for myself but with reduced ability to solo or 2-man areas I find the game less enjoyable after having utilised some of them for so long. I am at a stage in the game where my main doesn't need a full team as he's done all the party-based titles (Protector/Guardian/VQ/etc.) and would not 'normally' play in such parties. I was 'normally' playing 600/smite with individual friends or a Hero or, more recently, 2 accounts. This method by no means equates to speed clearing anything, but can be considered unbalanced.

My dissatisfaction is with ANet letting ANY such unbalanced build live for any longer than it needed. Players have grown into these builds and got used to them and loved them when realistically they should have been around for a week or two at most. I suspect ANet's definition of 'needed' spans the duration for which sales were good.