Soul Twisting + Shelter + Union = pretty nice idea - if it wasnt for those damn minions.
Minions will rip apart ur spirits within a sec, so my questions to you guy are:
Is it worth it to drop the minions completely? Do we rly need a MM to succeed in pve? I know the meat shield is nice, but cant the spirit provide a somewhat better "shield"?
Soul Twisting and Minions
ashes
FoxBat
Depends how you look at things. If you want shelter to be a backup when other defenses fail (e.g. SY drops a few seconds), then minions are a bad idea. On the other hand if you want to keep your minions alive longer so mobs are less likely to come after you, then even the handful of shelter procs can be very valuable. My favorite bar in this style is 4-5 offensive spirits and a shelter on soul twisting bar, you just spend most of your soul twists respamming shelter.
As for union/displacement, these are going down nearly as fast whether you have minions or not, barring party blocking like aegis. These depend on the number of foes attacking, not how many targets they have or how weak they are. The important exception being monsters with AoE attacks hitting clumped minions, albeit H/H tend to clump about as bad.
As for union/displacement, these are going down nearly as fast whether you have minions or not, barring party blocking like aegis. These depend on the number of foes attacking, not how many targets they have or how weak they are. The important exception being monsters with AoE attacks hitting clumped minions, albeit H/H tend to clump about as bad.
Axel Zinfandel
It depends, I would expect. In Hex heavy areas, minions can soak those up pretty well, and I don't think AI tends to target spirits much(?). In areas with lots of AoE, spirits run the risk of getting flat out destroyed also.
I'd venture to say take spirits, unless you are facing those types of situations.
EDIT: Also, minions are catered to a more caster-heavy group, where minions act as the frontline. Spirits would be better for balanced/physical groups
I'd venture to say take spirits, unless you are facing those types of situations.
EDIT: Also, minions are catered to a more caster-heavy group, where minions act as the frontline. Spirits would be better for balanced/physical groups
ashes
Ive been playing with at least 1 MM in my party as long as i can remember (57months xP) i and thought maybe it was time to re-thing the entire defensive site of my team.
I dont play with SY in my party, as most of my friends quit gw (and i mostly play caster roles)- i know it sounds sad, but thats the truth QQ
I dont play with SY in my party, as most of my friends quit gw (and i mostly play caster roles)- i know it sounds sad, but thats the truth QQ
ashes
Or maybe i should start playing SY! warrior for example and run a hero set up like this?
I just kinda like the ST idea <3
I just kinda like the ST idea <3
Midnight Sands
Daesu
You can use a ER Protect if you are traveling with a bomber MM. If not, you can use a ST defensive rit.
There are also different types of MM even though the minion bomber has been the most common because minions dont last long in HM. But with a ST defensive rit, they can, so maybe a ST rit can allow other types of MM (e.g. Fiends) to also shine in HM.
There are also different types of MM even though the minion bomber has been the most common because minions dont last long in HM. But with a ST defensive rit, they can, so maybe a ST rit can allow other types of MM (e.g. Fiends) to also shine in HM.
Shayne Hawke
The real strength of minions is how much damage they soak up from enemy mobs. If you're running a ST Rit, it's safe to drop minions altogether, since you'll already be having plenty of damage reduction.
chullster
When I am running the defensive bar, I use rit lord rather than ST with those 3 defensive spirits, they come with a lot more health/armour etc and using armour of unfeeling and summon spirits, you can keep them up pretty much all the time, and I use an MM hero too.
After all this time, don't you think the little guys deserve to get some help from your spirits?
After all this time, don't you think the little guys deserve to get some help from your spirits?
Luminarus
I like minions because when I run warrior and throw in barbs/mop minions turn that into a damage powerhouse.
Ney Matogrosso
Well, I don't see the problem here, I run the protection build with the 3 spirits and Armor of Unfeling and 5 Discord with minions and one SS Curse necro (yes, me and a friend with heroes and he is a necro too, but with offensive spirits) in areas with many AoE foes, we run the mission Against the Char in HM and the spirits be quite well, the only problem is that my energy runs down more quicly than I spect but, Boom of Creation manage it reasonably. Much minions means a very good barrier/damage and even with the spirits dying fast, you can mantain 3 times spawning all the spirits and you probably wont be trouble because all spike will be absorbed, but if it isn't enough to kill the foes, or you pull too many or your offensive power is not enough, but in this case, necros with Discord plus protection spirits was better than I usually played with my Imbagon plus Discord necros, the build is very overpower...
Infanta
Do you think a hero can run the ST build with heal area in place of Summon Spirits?
Arctica
Life Bringing
Lose the spirits and keep the MM. Defensive spirits are a waste.
Arctica
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Defensive spirits are a waste.
Hmmm, I don't think so. It is true however that minions and an ST rit in the same team is not the best option. If you have an ST rit, you don't need minions to soak up damage. Whether you pick an MM or a defensive rit: your choice, both work well.
Life Bringing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk
Quote: Originally Posted by Dusk However, ST gives so much defencive strength that you can focus your other builds on damage with much less worry. You just further proved my point about being screwed when spirits fall. If you're relying on a ST, you lose the reasoning to bring shit like Aegis and Enfeebling Blood in the first place, because you're trying to compensate for lack of damage. Hero teams with MMs have multiple layers of defense, making a wipe very difficult.
Quote:
Maybe it's you just being a biased nitpicker, calling one build "Leeroying" because that's the only way you see fit to play it.|
Originally Posted by Dusk
Low on corpses? Minionwall is thin. Minions die too fast? Minionwall is gone. Minions dying off while running from point A to point B? Minionwall is rotting away.
Honestly, how many areas have a lack of corpses? I even ran an MM in Ooze Pit HM and it filled it's purpose extremely well(admittedly, it was an oversight, but the 2-3 minions from AotL tanked just fine for my purposes). If your minions are dying, then they are doing their 2 jobs perfectly. They are not only absorbing damage that would have been dealt to your party, they are also exploding and dishing out ~115 damage+poison per death. I'd also like to point out that lvl 21 horrors and lvl 14 minions have no problems staying alive from group to group.
Dusk_
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
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Spirits are not bad. Neither are minions. However, Spirits do not hinder your play-style in the slightest, save for a single flag click at most (if even that). Spirits, however, make you far more flexible when it comes to mob-to-mob time frames.
There is nothing in the slightest that promotes degenerative tactics, unless you decide to be an idiot.
Quote:
"MM is better because I bring lots of defencive skills! ST sucks because you didn't bring anything else!"
MMs needs all those layers because it in itself is not good enough to keep a party alive. ST needs some layers, but much less, and those extra skills that are freed up can more than "compensate for the lack of damage".
And really, just what are you doing with your Spirits that they fall so much? Flagging them as tanks or something? Most of the time you don't even need to bother flagging at all, and they'll sit nice and safe until they've been used up. If you do have to flag, they'll be way out of aggro risk.
Quote:
Flawed logic tbh. If you actually pulled properly, you wouldn't need the defensive spirits in the first place, making them redundant.|
Honestly, how many areas have a lack of corpses? I even ran an MM in Ooze Pit HM and it filled it's purpose extremely well(admittedly, it was an oversight, but the 2-3 minions from AotL tanked just fine for my purposes). If your minions are dying, then they are doing their 2 jobs perfectly. They are not only absorbing damage that would have been dealt to your party, they are also exploding and dishing out ~115 damage+poison per death. I'd also like to point out that lvl 21 horrors and lvl 14 minions have no problems staying alive from group to group.
Uh, the point wasn't that minions aren't good. It's that they have far more failure potential than Spirits do. Which is why your claims were ludicrous. If you even bothered to try using Spirits as well as you apparently use minions, they wouldn't be failing at all. Ever.
Daesu
There are pros and cons with using the defensive spirits versus minion bombing.
Minion bombs provide good offense as well as defense, while defensive spirits are only for defense. Minions can mitigate hexes and conditions, defensive spirits dont. Minions can also provide party heals through Dwayna's Sorrow. On the other hand, minions rely on corpses so they are not useful in certain areas, defensive spirits dont have this restriction. Defensive spirits are better if you need to protect allies in certain missions. Defensive spirits are easier to play on heroes since they dont tend to lag behind casting Death Nova, however if you flag your heroes and pull properly on each encounter that is not much of an issue. It depends on what you need. Generally, I prefer to use the minion bomber because there are other ways to provide defense for party members without wasting spirit's hp on minions. You can replace the defensive spirits rit with an ER protect/smite or you can have a strong restore healer instead (e.g. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=31 ) with PS and Aegis that you can control manually if necessary, from somewhere in your team. FlyMoto
Heros run Minion Bomber much better than ST. ST on a player from a defense perspective is going to be superior as they can place the spirits better and ensure that the spirits don't go down when not desired.
On a more serious note, any decent team build nowadays should have ST, Minions, Imbagon, and 2 ER Prots for safe measure.
Life Bringing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk_
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Quote:
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Uh, what? "MM is better because I bring lots of defencive skills! ST sucks because you didn't bring anything else!" MMs needs all those layers because it in itself is not good enough to keep a party alive. ST needs some layers, but much less, and those extra skills that are freed up can more than "compensate for the lack of damage". I need 4 slots for my defense(Aegis, Prot Spirit, SoA, and Enfeebling Blood), and I don't use a defensive spirit spammer. If you use a fully defensive ST bar, you've already wasted more than is necessary. Minions provide a dual effect, as they are proficient damage dealers through explosions, while still protecting the party. Diffusing defense/support onto the midline is incredibly more effective than devoting a whole character slot to it. Quote:
Uh, what?
You said "Defencive spirits promote Leeroying". Now you're just changing the point altogether? Nice try. Defencive spirits don't promote any degenerative playing. Quote:
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I been tanking left side btw, not right.