PUG rant - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Quaker

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Aug 2005

Canada

Brothers Disgruntled

08 Apr 2010 at 16:11 - 1

I've been doing a lot of the Zaishen Quests lately, and often times I join a PUG just for fun. This has been overall, a successful thing, but as you can imagine, sometimes it doesn't go so well.

I was going to vent about it with a rant, but I've decided that less rant, more suggestion may be better.

So, the problem with PUGs, at least as far has HM Z-quests goes, is not what you may think. It's not the so-called noobs, or the inexperienced players.
No, it's the experienced players who should know better that are the problem. So instead of a rant I'd like to offer these tips for PuG'ing to those semi-experienced, think-they're-leet, players who screw it up for the rest.

1. It's a PuG, this naturally means that you may get inexperienced players and/or players with skill bars that are (in your opinion) less then optimal.

2. Many missions and bounties have "back door" methods to get them done - alternate paths, enemies that can be avoided, etc. Keeping #1 in mind, not everyone in a PuG will be aware of these alternate methods.

3. Keep it simple - keeping in mind #1 and #2 - it's often simplest and fastest just to do it "oldschool". Do not assume that everyone will approach the task in the same manner as you. Be willing to learn new methods.

4. Pinging and drawing madly on the compass during the mission/quest is not helpful. No one knows who's pinging or why, or what they want, so it often just leads to the group being confused and spread out everywhere.

5. If you really, really want people to do things a particular way - explain it to the group before you start. I know it will take up some of your precious time, but...

6. If people go the "wrong way" and agro things you think you should avoid, it's much faster and easier to simply help kill the agro rather than whine about it or, worst of all, go off your own way without helping. Stay with the group.

7. Don't run way ahead of the healers and/or run past agro and then whine about not getting healed. (From the PuGs I've been a healer in.

)

8. Unless you actually are the leader, don't try to highjack the group and enforce your own view.

/rant

There could be more, but I could add them later. I think #3 is the most important overall.

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

08 Apr 2010 at 16:24 - 2

We already have like 3 threads with PuG advise. We really don't need another one, especially not a rant/whine inspired one.

Very few people still care about PuGing outside of zquest/zmission stuff anymore, so I don't even think we need the other ones that we have.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

08 Apr 2010 at 16:50 - 3

Basically can sum all that in one sentence. Learn to communicate and work things out with the other players instead of being an idiot.

I PUG whenever possible and I suggest methods, builds, and skills while in someone else's party. Not in any rude way, but I would like to think people enjoy feedback. I mean, I'd even rather have someone tell me my bar sucks and kick me as long as they explain why and what could be changed. Since my main is a mesmer, it's pretty rare for people to ping builds at me unless it's in DoA. Sometimes I may be one of the few who is asked to ping except for the monks. People are likely worried about having a wasted slot in their party because someone wanted to fast cast fire or random PvP piss.

gremlin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

GWAR

Me/Mo

08 Apr 2010 at 16:56 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

I've been doing a lot of the Zaishen Quests lately, and often times I join a PUG just for fun. This has been overall, a successful thing, but as you can imagine, sometimes it doesn't go so well.

I was going to vent about it with a rant, but I've decided that less rant, more suggestion may be better.

So, the problem with PUGs, at least as far has HM Z-quests goes, is not what you may think. It's not the so-called noobs, or the inexperienced players.
No, it's the experienced players who should know better that are the problem. So instead of a rant I'd like to offer these tips for PuG'ing to those semi-experienced, think-they're-leet, players who screw it up for the rest.

1. It's a PuG, this naturally means that you may get inexperienced players and/or players with skill bars that are (in your opinion) less then optimal.

2. Many missions and bounties have "back door" methods to get them done - alternate paths, enemies that can be avoided, etc. Keeping #1 in mind, not everyone in a PuG will be aware of these alternate methods.

3. Keep it simple - keeping in mind #1 and #2 - it's often simplest and fastest just to do it "oldschool". Do not assume that everyone will approach the task in the same manner as you. Be willing to learn new methods.

4. Pinging and drawing madly on the compass during the mission/quest is not helpful. No one knows who's pinging or why, or what they want, so it often just leads to the group being confused and spread out everywhere.

5. If you really, really want people to do things a particular way - explain it to the group before you start. I know it will take up some of your precious time, but...

6. If people go the "wrong way" and agro things you think you should avoid, it's much faster and easier to simply help kill the agro rather than whine about it or, worst of all, go off your own way without helping. Stay with the group.

7. Don't run way ahead of the healers and/or run past agro and then whine about not getting healed. (From the PuGs I've been a healer in.

)

8. Unless you actually are the leader, don't try to highjack the group and enforce your own view.

/rant

There could be more, but I could add them later. I think #3 is the most important overall.

QFT esp 5.
Impatience lack of pre planning and communication has always been the bane of GW

Allamorph

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2009

The Basement

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

E/Me

08 Apr 2010 at 17:39 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Learn to communicate and work things out with the other players instead of being an idiot.

/signed

While it's nice to be able to drop into a pug and blaze through the mission with everyone doing their implied jobs in total silence, the most fun I've had in ZM pugging was in groups with high levels of chatter. I guess it's just nice to know there are humans on the other side.

mage767

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

LOVE

Me/E

08 Apr 2010 at 18:20 - 6

It's pretty simply to take charge of the group as a leader. Keep 1-2 healer heroes with you at all times, and the rest will follow.

However, if you go all pugs, and there are one or two pugs who are enforcing their own views which are different from your own (although you are the current leader), remind them why only your view should be followed, giving good examples:

1. Who here has 5 legendary guardians? This should shut many up although you don't need to prove anything.

2. Who here has beaten the mission in under 10 min?? Everyone is eager to get things done quick, so the newbies will become devout followers.

3. Make examples by kicking those pugs who complain when you want to bring a power ER prot hero or a MM because and the pugs are too sucky to realize some builds are indeed excellent choices on heroes.

4. Show them how your knowledge of GW skills and professions far exceeds those in the group, by being able to tell them which skills to drop/add/ and why. Some pugs don't like changing. If so, and the group agrees he/she is being a jerk which puts the group at risk (like a firestorm ele in foundry for example), def. kick.

5. Don't form a party if you suck. Most likely, you will form a poorly balanced group for the task, increasing the likelihood of fail. In order words, don't have failz written all over your forehead.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

08 Apr 2010 at 18:31 - 7

Tip for PUG players: just because you made the build yourself, doesn't make it good. Go to PvX, use something from there. That way you'll be useful.

Lycan Nibbler

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

AZ

08 Apr 2010 at 18:43 - 8

I wish I could type and fight well at the same time. Im a slow typer at the best of times without the other distractions

So if you ever pug with me, Im the quiet one ^.^ (I so hope theres voice built into gw2 - I love vent but ofc its useless with 98% of pugs)

Lord Dagon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2009

Inside the Oblivion Gate

The Imperial Guards of Istan[TIGE]

E/Me

08 Apr 2010 at 19:03 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Tip for PUG players: just because you made the build yourself, doesn't make it good. Go to PvX, use something from there. That way you'll be useful.

GFT if ppl could do this then wed have all the problems puging wise fixed preety much.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

08 Apr 2010 at 19:04 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Tip for PUG players: just because you made the build yourself, doesn't make it good. Go to PvX, use something from there. That way you'll be useful.

I strongly disagree, cause not all the good builds are on PvX and unless the outdated ones have been removed not all the builds on PvX are good.

One of the things that narks me off when it comes to PUGs is when you get one person insisting you bring X build or change X, Y and Z skill to the point that it is effectively an new build. Except for certain missions where I know certain skills are needed (eg Urgoz) I am resistant to change my builds cause I do know they work and do the damage I want.

Another thing too, with asking people to change builds they need the time to work out how to work the build. I would rather go through a mish with someone who is used to their build and can probably use it to great affect rather than someone who has switched to a new build and is still finding their way.

I would have to go with the OP's ideas over what I have quoted and mage767. overzealous idiots demanding this, that and the other can be just as much a detriment to the group as the noob feeling their way

NewbreedofMe

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2010

In the refuge of the Sylvari.

The Legion of the Golden Aguila [PNOY]

R/

08 Apr 2010 at 19:06 - 11

Just learn to keep your feet on the ground. Some people are just way over their heads the way they think. Elitists for example..

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

08 Apr 2010 at 19:10 - 12

Meh I agree that its the "experienced" players that always F*** up pugs. Its rare that I fail with pugs unless theres some wannabe GoE or TAM member that bitches about everything. Its PvE, so really anything works, and tbh I find it more fun PUGing than doing things with guilds a lot of times (especially in todays meta) because you're free to use whatever build you want, rather than cookiecutter crap.

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

08 Apr 2010 at 19:17 - 13

Aye PvX has some good builds, but that doesn't make all builds that aren't on there bad. If someone pings me a bar that keeps to 2 maybe 3 attributes and they seem to work together and do their job, then I have no problem taking them.

That said most of the game can be done with less than 8 players anyways so even bringing a person or two running bad builds probably won't make or break you (granted HM in some end-game stuff it might).

For example my buddy just started playing again, having had RL problems to deal with for the last 3 years. He was on the last mission of Nightfall and we picked up a Dervish who was having trouble with the mission. When he pinged his build I saw why - 3 scythe mastery skills, 2 mysticism, 1 earth prayers, 1 healing prayers, 1 smiting prayers and all his attributes were spread out in those.

But I figured what the hell its Abaddon on normal we'll pull the guy through, and hell we even managed to get master's. And the guy was really friendly, just needed a hand was all.

Point being yes there are some really bad builds, but most of the time they won't make or break your team and more often then not if you explain to them why the build probably isn't so good in a way that doesn't make them feel like they are being talked down to then you might, just might have a chance at BadGWplayers -= 1;

The game community used to be helpful now its ping your build and /kickfromgroup. People act like they were perfect from the start and never had anyone explain any aspect of the game to them.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

08 Apr 2010 at 19:23 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

The game community used to be helpful now its ping your build and /kickfromgroup. People act like they were perfect from the start and never had anyone explain any aspect of the game to them.

Exactly. We were all noobs at some point

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

08 Apr 2010 at 19:24 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

I strongly disagree, cause not all the good builds are on PvX and unless the outdated ones have been removed not all the builds on PvX are good.

PvX is a great resource, but that's all that it's intended to be. It's not supposed to be a weapon used against players with non-PvX builds. I've always tried to help people understand that it's meant to help players learn the basics, create based on those basics (that's what variants are for), and have builds in case they don't feel like building.

We do our best to remove outdated builds, but we don't catch them all. If you noticed a build that's outdated, let me or another admin there know and we'll look into it.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

08 Apr 2010 at 19:27 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

PvX is a great resource, but that's all that it's intended to be. It's not supposed to be a weapon used against players with non-PvX builds (that is, if their builds aren't terrible of course).

We do our best to remove outdated builds, but we don't catch them all. If you noticed a build that's outdated, let me or another admin there know and we'll look into it.

Thanks for that. Don't usually look there anyway, but yeah, glad that you pointed out that it is intended as a reference, not a be all and end all like some make it to be.

Liston

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2010

California

Chronic Insomniacs [Chi]

R/

08 Apr 2010 at 19:53 - 17

not to vent, but many z-challenge pugs take monks, discord, and sos for granted, so if you are not one of those professions, gl! ffs, the z-mission was in Nolani Academy about a month ago in HM and ppl were looking for the mentioned above.

dagrdagaz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2010

NL

E/N

08 Apr 2010 at 19:54 - 18

For the moment i seem to use PvX Wikia builds as a good basis, i usually still change 1 or 2 skills.
But atm i am still doing general NM PvE, so i dont feel the need to use pvx builds exactly as they r listed on pvx wikia.

Tharg

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Massachusetts

Omega Glory

Mo/

08 Apr 2010 at 20:04 - 19

I never ask people to ping. They should figure out what works for themselves. I hate to ping my build (mostly monk) because I know what works for me. Probably not latest and greatest compared to what's on PvX Wiki - but it works for me...

If I play a monk most of the time, why would someone who plays another profession most of the time know what's best for me???

I have had instances where a PUG basically forced a skill bar on me that I was not familiar with - and I sucked so badly... They were all upset (noob!!!) but hey - they should have let me play with my own bar.

Warvic

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2009

The Netherlands

A/W

08 Apr 2010 at 20:07 - 20

gl trying to bring this message to the players. As only like 1% (I guess) of the players is checking these forums ..

You know.. They could also just NEVER ADDED heroes.. Just saying

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

08 Apr 2010 at 20:09 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Tip for PUG players: just because you made the build yourself, doesn't make it good. Go to PvX, use something from there. That way you'll be useful.

"Good is the enemy of great." - Jim Collins

PvX provides good builds. It rarely provides great ones, because there are strong incentives to keep great strategies and builds quiet. Now, if you don't understand the game, PvX is the first place you should go. But it is no substitute for an understanding of the underlying mechanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

5. Don't form a party if you suck. Most likely, you will form a poorly balanced group for the task, increasing the likelihood of fail. In order words, don't have failz written all over your forehead.

Great advice. The only issue with it is that too many bad players don't know that they suck. I won't link it due to site rules, but there is quality psychological research out there indicating that failbots think that they do not suck precisely because they lack the skills that would enable them to realize that they fail.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

08 Apr 2010 at 20:21 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharg

I never ask people to ping. They should figure out what works for themselves. I hate to ping my build (mostly monk) because I know what works for me. Probably not latest and greatest compared to what's on PvX Wiki - but it works for me...

Same here, I hate to ping my build too cause I am usually running a straight-up BM build. I was doing good even before the pet buff, but like with other builds and classes you get those in a PUG which complain, saying you should bring this and that, and to drop the pet, etc. You know how to work your build to good effect, and I am the same, just some people get stuck in that kind of mentality

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

08 Apr 2010 at 20:31 - 23

PvX is mixed, it has all the good builds and variants of builds that could become great with changes but it still has some pretty awful stuff at times. I don't dare review or rate builds on PvX because of its strict review censorship.

Kicking people doesn't help PUGs because the person who was kicked never learned anything if they weren't explained why, etc.

As for pinging unfamiliar builds, it depends. Most builds one can make are easy to pick up and play.

That's a wonderful quote, Martin Alvito.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

08 Apr 2010 at 21:07 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

I strongly disagree, cause not all the good builds are on PvX and unless the outdated ones have been removed not all the builds on PvX are good.

1. Click on the Great category, not All.

2. Even outdated and bad PvX builds are better than shit a PUGger put together himself.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

08 Apr 2010 at 21:42 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

1. Click on the Great category, not All.

2. Even outdated and bad PvX builds are better than shit a PUGger put together himself.

1. Cookie-cutter builds, especially 'Great' ones get nerfed every now and then. The really great ones rarely make it on there for that exact reason.

2. Not every PUGer has a shit build and you would be surprised at some of the different ideas people come up with out there. Not to mention the fact that not everyone looks at PvX, and to some degree there are those that dont even know about it, yet come up with interesting and great builds

As I have said before, I would prefer someone who, on paper, looks like they have a shit build but know how to use it effectively than someone using a 'great' build from PvX but dont have a clue to work it.

Sidenote: Pinging a build to me is not exactly a good guide, as while it gives the attribute settings, they dont account for what armour/weapon mods the person is running. Some may be more powerful than you think, while others could have a crap setup with a 'great' build and still be useless

Athrun Feya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

Oxford, UK

Hiding From Shi Tters [Shh]

08 Apr 2010 at 22:05 - 26

PvX is useful if used correctly. It should just be an extension of a players natural instinct to look for synergy between skills, not the be-all-and-end-all. PvX may not have everything ironed out properly and its a bugger to keep updated with the amount of different opinions and occasional skill updates. However, a lot of successful builds being used in PvE are variants of what's on PvX (when talking about builds "original" tends to come across as an insult).

On topic though, you don't need to optimise everything in PvE; builds themselves are far from the reason why PuGs often fail. The two things most PuG teams lack are leadership and communication; even with the best builds ever created without these two things pug teams will continue to fail.

awry

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

08 Apr 2010 at 22:38 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

Same here, I hate to ping my build too cause I am usually running a straight-up BM build. I was doing good even before the pet buff, but like with other builds and classes you get those in a PUG which complain, saying you should bring this and that, and to drop the pet, etc. You know how to work your build to good effect, and I am the same, just some people get stuck in that kind of mentality

What kind of group functions well when they don't even know what their teammates are doing? If you don't ping your builds, you get redundant hexes, you get two spirit spammers canceling each other out, you get 3 guys claiming they're "tanks" and have no dmg, you get someone with some generic build that is good 90 percent of the time, but doesn't work in this situation. A good group leader asks everyone to ping just to avoid confusion and false assumptions, like hey i thought that monk was healing or hey nobody can rez at all? Why are people so afraid of pinging, if you think your build is good, then you should have a good explanation/argument to give to the leader of why it is good.

Laraja

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

Somewhere over the rainbow

Descendents of Honor

Rt/

08 Apr 2010 at 22:50 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharg

I never ask people to ping. They should figure out what works for themselves. I hate to ping my build (mostly monk) because I know what works for me. Probably not latest and greatest compared to what's on PvX Wiki - but it works for me...

If I play a monk most of the time, why would someone who plays another profession most of the time know what's best for me???

I have had instances where a PUG basically forced a skill bar on me that I was not familiar with - and I sucked so badly... They were all upset (noob!!!) but hey - they should have let me play with my own bar.

^^This.

This is why I'm not a build nazi. I may make suggestions but I have discovered that it's better to let someone play a poor build that they know well than a good build they are completely unfamiliar with. Not that I'm saying your build is poor, Tharg, but just saying forcing someone to play a build they're not familiar with is worse than just leaving them alone. And anyway, unless you're doing Frostmaw or Duncan HM or something like that, most of the time you can get a way with a sub-optimal group, such as the Norn Bear HM, just grab 8 people and go, skip the shrine and there you are.

But back to the OP message. It would be nice if some of those rules were posted on a board in some of the bigger town and outposts in GW, lol. The biggest PuG failure has been people not staying with the group. That tryannus boss (Lord of the Marsh) in Sparkfly comes to mind. He's easy, but not when people rush and leave people stranded to fight with mobs of raptors.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

08 Apr 2010 at 22:50 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

What kind of group functions well when they don't even know what their teammates are doing? If you don't ping your builds, you get redundant hexes, you get two spirit spammers canceling each other out, you get 3 guys claiming they're "tanks" and have no dmg, you get someone with some generic build that is good 90 percent of the time, but doesn't work in this situation. A good group leader asks everyone to ping just to avoid confusion and false assumptions, like hey i thought that monk was healing or hey nobody can rez at all? Why are people so afraid of pinging, if you think your build is good, then you should have a good explanation/argument to give to the leader of why it is good.

the reason why people are afraid to ping their builds is cause of the idiots who will either auto-kick if they are the leader or demand to kick if they arnt, or will demand you change your build, no matter how many times you tell them it works fine. when people usually rant about PUGs it is usually going off on 'noobs' etc, but those are the ones most detrimental to the group because they expect it to function a certain way (their way) and will belittle anyone who disagrees, and it is those people who make others be afraid to ping their builds

That and the usual of where someone has an extremely good build they worry about someone else stealing it, posting it on PvX, it becoming popular then hit with the nerf bat.

I personally am the former rather than the latter. I will accept suggestions, but I wont go out of my way to buy whole new skills or even change my entire skill bar because someone demands it, which is what usually happens when you ping your build

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

08 Apr 2010 at 23:03 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

I will accept suggestions, but I wont go out of my way to buy whole new skills or even change my entire skill bar because someone demands it

In PUGs that were willing to wait and in groups that had a few people I know, I've gone to buy and tome skills. Zone faster and use your chocolate bunnies if you must.

mage767

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

LOVE

Me/E

08 Apr 2010 at 23:12 - 31

If you dont' have all the skills for your profession, you shouldn't be doing HM stuff. Either be fully prepared to take skills for your prof as demanded by party leader (remember, this person might be doing this for the greater good of the team - no one gives a shit if you feel your fav bar is being ditched), or be your own leader. If you take the latter route, you will not get the chance to learn something new...so yeah, build nazis are needed to teach pugs...'good' build nazis that is.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

08 Apr 2010 at 23:30 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

In PUGs that were willing to wait and in groups that had a few people I know, I've gone to buy and tome skills. Zone faster and use your chocolate bunnies if you must.

I wont go out of my way for a group of people I may only do one or two missions with, especially when I know my build is good enough anyway, and they are just being demanding.

@mage767: I have resisted using the N word until now (we all know Goodwin's law) but I hate build Nazis, because generally they want cookie-cutter builds and thats it. the 'open to new things' goes both ways, cause if you stick to the cookie-cutter builds you dont see any variables which can actually help

I don't have anything against the ones that suggest things, I am open anytime. It is the ones that demand it, as in 'you must change or else' and they themselves aren't open to other ideas that I dislike

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

08 Apr 2010 at 23:38 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Aye PvX has some good builds, but that doesn't make all builds that aren't on there bad. If someone pings me a bar that keeps to 2 maybe 3 attributes and they seem to work together and do their job, then I have no problem taking them.

That said most of the game can be done with less than 8 players anyways so even bringing a person or two running bad builds probably won't make or break you (granted HM in some end-game stuff it might).

For example my buddy just started playing again, having had RL problems to deal with for the last 3 years. He was on the last mission of Nightfall and we picked up a Dervish who was having trouble with the mission. When he pinged his build I saw why - 3 scythe mastery skills, 2 mysticism, 1 earth prayers, 1 healing prayers, 1 smiting prayers and all his attributes were spread out in those.

But I figured what the hell its Abaddon on normal we'll pull the guy through, and hell we even managed to get master's. And the guy was really friendly, just needed a hand was all.

Point being yes there are some really bad builds, but most of the time they won't make or break your team and more often then not if you explain to them why the build probably isn't so good in a way that doesn't make them feel like they are being talked down to then you might, just might have a chance at BadGWplayers -= 1;

The game community used to be helpful now its ping your build and /kickfromgroup. People act like they were perfect from the start and never had anyone explain any aspect of the game to them.

Agreed, though I blame a number of things for ruining the game, heros, pve skills ect, HM is another thing that had a major factor in destroying the game. I believe HM is what got people on this "Lawlz that build sucks need moar pve skillz" not because HM is "hard" it just forces people to use over all shitty builds that aren't fun to play and destroys the balance for some classes. Tbh Idk why people would actually want to play in HM if they could help it.

Like it or not, PuGs are the majority of the game. Imo they should of catered to them more from the start.

Nabru Yar

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

E/

08 Apr 2010 at 23:44 - 34

being asked to *ping* a build for a PuG is borderline insulting...
then again< I do understand the necessity. /sigh

merciless_mike

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2009

Warriors Of The Flaming Fist [WFF]

Me/

08 Apr 2010 at 23:58 - 35

My overall biggest pet peeve with PuGs right now, is the cookie cutter monk builds out there.
By having Healers Boon and Heal Party be the "meta" (or at least the super popular option), it makes some really lazy players think they're good at monking.

Now by all means, I do not think I'm all that good either, but I know better than to just spam party heals at high cost when only one guy is taking damage.

I'll also add that I see so many people not taking any protection spells on either monk bar (assuming the normal setup of 2 healers). There's only so much outright heals can do for you, a couple of Invoke Lightnings and there goes half your team.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

09 Apr 2010 at 00:37 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by merciless_mike

My overall biggest pet peeve with PuGs right now, is the cookie cutter monk builds out there.
By having Healers Boon and Heal Party be the "meta" (or at least the super popular option), it makes some really lazy players think they're good at monking.

Now by all means, I do not think I'm all that good either, but I know better than to just spam party heals at high cost when only one guy is taking damage.

yeah, true. The build really is only as good as the player using it

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

09 Apr 2010 at 01:45 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

1) If you dont' have all the skills for your profession, you shouldn't be doing HM stuff. 2) Either be fully prepared to take skills for your prof as demanded by party leader (remember, this person might be doing this for the greater good of the team - no one gives a shit if you feel your fav bar is being ditched), or be your own leader. If you take the latter route, you will not get the chance to learn something new...so yeah, 3) build nazis are needed to teach pugs...'good' build nazis that is.

1) Not having every skill for a profession doesn't mean much. Not many ppl have every skill for every char that is not their main.

2) If this is the party leader...ditch them..they are happier with their h/h anyways.

3) These ppl make PUGing bad....I'd much rather play with pleasent ppl (even if they r not the best) and enjoy my time than play "Hail Hitler".

4) Long of the short~Golden Rule~Treating others the way you want to be treated will make PuGs much more enjoyable.

Darcy

Never Too Old

Join Date: Jul 2006

Rhode Island where there are no GW contests

Order of First

W/R

09 Apr 2010 at 01:57 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

Another thing too, with asking people to change builds they need the time to work out how to work the build. I would rather go through a mish with someone who is used to their build and can probably use it to great affect rather than someone who has switched to a new build and is still finding their way.

I totally agree. Nothing is worse than being asked to take a build that is totally new to you. It cripples you and makes your presence a wasted team slot.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

09 Apr 2010 at 02:20 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Now, if you don't understand the game

See that thing you said? Remember it, because it's the case with 95% of PUG players, and it's why they should use PvX builds.

Also PvX DOES have a lot of the best builds there are, because they've been tested and refined by many players.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

09 Apr 2010 at 02:59 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

See that thing you said? Remember it, because it's the case with 95% of PUG players, and it's why they should use PvX builds.

Also PvX DOES have a lot of the best builds there are, because they've been tested and refined by many players.

I hate to start a flame war, but people like you are the ones that make up most of the PUGs I come across and are what puts me off getting in PUG groups. I am not saying there arent those who are struggling, but it is more the 'ur build sux go PvX I wanna get this done in 5 minutes change to splinter barrage, run this that and the other' etc people that I see and frankly that puts me off forming groups outside of my alliance and and makes H&Hing is preferable.