Advanced Mo/W Bots in RA

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Narita View Post
Remember what they did to HFFF botters? Well since the poor dears "felt compelled to bot", A-Net just gave them a slap on the wrist and let them get away with it. Not exactly a deterrent.
True, but starting in late 2005 they were aggressively banning farmbots left and right. Widespread bans would slow the tide for a day or two at best, but apparently there were enough hacked accounts to go around.

The last ten years of MMO history should be convincing proof that enforcement does not resolve these issues. The hackers simply have greater (collective) resources. Plug one vulnerability, and cheaters find another.

You solve the problem by redesign that removes the incentives to bot. Notice that increases in botting efficacy and prevalence came after the addition of Zaishen Keys. At the end of the day, we like ZKeys and they seem like a good idea, but their existence drives destructive behaviors.

Long story short, transferable in-game rewards are bad. Money is also transferable, and you will always have people willing to exchange one for the other. The only way to block that process is to make it impossible.

Amaurosis

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggles View Post
Thankfully they haven't evolved past running towards each team member in turn
Some have even gone beyond that point. I was with a bot in DA that upkept winds and only followed player one(which was me at the time). It even used Dragon Blast on the closest target after standing idle for about 5 seconds. The worst part about it was the bot ended up killing me with Dragon Blast as I was under the impression it would just stand there, so I respectively ignored it.

Be careful this weekend

Painbringer

Painbringer

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minnesota

Black Widows of Death

W/Mo

To report such a bot, you can go to Gaile Gray's Botwatch page or use the in-game /report system if you are in the same instance as the bot.

This was alarming; Google: free gw bots About 969,000 results (0.21 seconds)

Can't imagine all the tasty key loggers and seeping wounds in the results of this search

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

and how do you people expect to FIX this?!



Good effin luck!

Agar

Agar

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2009

Angry Marine Fortress

[ZoS]

W/D

The guys at this site are looking this thread and laugh. Here are some of their posts:


Quote:
What makes no sense is, that this bot is pretty good, why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is ppl complaining? Shitty nabs who don't get a clue.
Quote:
lets set up a RA bot for every class Cheesy and hope that more player bot than playing RA on their own xD
Quote:
ahahahhahahhahahahhahahaha omg omgggggg i'm laughing too many ppl that think that ra is the only bot around , they have bot under their eyes and dont even suspect this bot that can help many ppl with RA is creating so many headhaches XD

what if they know that there are bots that make 240k+ daily as robotica's bot ?
Quote:
my signature is smarter than a player who dont like a monk-bot

and my signature is a cat!
Quote:

pro pro! i was thinking of making some resign bots Cheesy
So yeah they are pretty much mocking all the people that play normaly. I know that Anet has a small developer team now but something needs to be done. It pisses me of that alot of them will get rewards for GW2 for just being afk and i hope that you will have a very advanced protection system against botting for it.

ightgg

ightgg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzjudz View Post
Unfair advantage of one team is an unfair disadvantage of the other team.
How can it be unfair? Every team has the possibility of getting a "bot" monk so it seems all fair. The only people who are upset are the ones that dont receive the bonus and end up not winning. Seems like a poor sport kind of situation. And believe me Anet has no idea how to deal with this new age of bots because they thought that simple screen tracking would work (autoit style botting scripts) and these new bots have randomization features and can talk and respond to others theres even bots who can recruit and send invites to those interested. Gw1 is dead to anet and they will NOT be doing anything substantial to stop bots in gw1 as they should be learning how they work and how to counter it effectively in gw2. Realize that if your crying about Mo/W bots your also crying about Mez bots, Dshot ranger bots, blinding surge bots, and probably even Mind blast bots. Its not like anet actually knows how to do anything about this

Dzjudz

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

I'm not crying about bots (I don't pvp much if any), I just think the arguments pro-bot are retarded.

NeHoMaR

NeHoMaR

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by snikerz View Post
  • Heals self and party members
  • Cures self and party members
  • Removes hex from self and party members
  • Energy management
  • Checks for Dishonorable effect
  • Checks for melee impact
  • Checks for death
  • Checks for Daze,Shame,Backfire,Empathy,Diversion on self
  • Dodges Broad Head Arrow and Lightning Orb
  • Avoids knockdowns
  • Great movement
  • Attacks nearest enemy
  • Resigns if 2 or more party members are monks (not if you won the last round)
  • Gets Z-Keys every 5000 balth points
  • Counts win + lose + Z-Keys
Sorry friend, but it's impossible for a bot to do that in the list. Bots (software) are only allowed to use keys, for example ASDW, etc, and combos like C + Space, 1,2,3,4, etc.

There's no way at least the bot software is merged with GW.exe, or interfere RAM; even doing that half of the list is still impossible.

poppu16

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeHoMaR View Post
Sorry friend, but it's impossible for a bot to do that in the list. Bots (software) are only allowed to use keys, for example ASDW, etc, and combos like C + Space, 1,2,3,4, etc.

There's no way at least the bot software is merged with GW.exe, or interfere RAM; even doing that half of the list is still impossible.
You are totally wrong, such methods already exists (search guild wars client API on google code)

StormDragonZ

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agar View Post
So yeah they are pretty much mocking all the people that play normaly. I know that Anet has a small developer team now but something needs to be done. It pisses me of that alot of them will get rewards for GW2 for just being afk and i hope that you will have a very advanced protection system against botting for it.
Just remember, these are probably the same people that complain about GW1 being boring too. You can't please anyone who choose not to play themselves and then get mad because they have nothing to do.

Riot Narita

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agar View Post
So yeah they are pretty much mocking all the people that play normaly.
Uh, you call that "mocking"? It's pretty poor mockery. It's more like the self-congratulatory banter that typically goes on between insecure teenagers, desperate to feel that they "fit in" somewhere, and that they are "somebody"... when their only "friends" are screen names.

Sankt Hallvard

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Narita View Post
Uh, you call that "mocking"? It's pretty poor mockery. It's more like the self-congratulatory banter that typically goes on between insecure teenagers, desperate to feel that they "fit in" somewhere, and that they are "somebody"... when their only "friends" are screen names.
Easy there. You risk popping quite a few bubbles more than you intended.

Sorry, gtg. Need to update facebook..

ightgg

ightgg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Rt/

A game that openly understands bots exist is better then a game where bots exist under the radar. Mesmer interupt bot is NOT new. Its been around more then a year maybe even more then that. The fact that a few kids spread it and now everyone uses it is when people start to complain. It is relevant to the current state of pvp but honestly 5years of a semi balanced pvp atmosphere is more then Anet ever hoped.

Iron Smerf

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2010

Terra Noise [Zraw]

A/P

Wow. This obviously provides an unfair advantage. There needs to be some sort of detection for it. But, not much anyone can really do, sometimes its hard to tell if someones actually there, or afk with a program running the game for them >_<

Jinkies

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

All I've gotta say is if you can't beat a bot that doesn't pre guardian, runs 4 in tactics, doesn't change weapon sets, runs a sub-par build to begin with, doesn't prioritize condition/hex removals and occasionally fails to follow your team.. then the bot isn't providing an unfair advantage to their team.. you are providing a disadvantage to your team.

I expect this bot to die out fast since the current released version has rather large flaws and from a z-key perspective you are better off running bots in JQ.

Also @ the OP I wouldn't be surprised if he was a botter himself.. the explanation he gave for why he figured out it was a bot was kinda hard for me to believe, I too would heal an ally that life saced himself at the beginning of the match if nothing more than to amuse myself in an arena filled with boring copies of the same sin or ranger build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
True, but starting in late 2005 they were aggressively banning farmbots left and right. Widespread bans would slow the tide for a day or two at best, but apparently there were enough hacked accounts to go around.

The last ten years of MMO history should be convincing proof that enforcement does not resolve these issues. The hackers simply have greater (collective) resources. Plug one vulnerability, and cheaters find another.

You solve the problem by redesign that removes the incentives to bot. Notice that increases in botting efficacy and prevalence came after the addition of Zaishen Keys. At the end of the day, we like ZKeys and they seem like a good idea, but their existence drives destructive behaviors.

Long story short, transferable in-game rewards are bad. Money is also transferable, and you will always have people willing to exchange one for the other. The only way to block that process is to make it impossible.
True but removing tradeable money and items from the game removes the incentive for many players to actually play the game. Most players would not play an MMO where items of value could not be traded. Also simply removing transferable in game rewards would not really stop botting, botters would instead just bot titles. There are plenty available for nearly any title available in game.

To be completly honest not banning botters is actually probably working well for Anet, more people are buying more accounts to bot on and Anet can focus their priorities on other things such as new content and GW2. I hope Anet doesn't ban the botters (except the PvP interupt ones) and uses their time instead to work on ADDING TA BACK!!

snikerz

snikerz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Rt/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinkies View Post
All I've gotta say is if you can't beat a bot that doesn't pre guardian, runs 4 in tactics, doesn't change weapon sets, runs a sub-par build to begin with, doesn't prioritize condition/hex removals and occasionally fails to follow your team.. then the bot isn't providing an unfair advantage to their team.. you are providing a disadvantage to your team.

I expect this bot to die out fast since the current released version has rather large flaws and from a z-key perspective you are better off running bots in JQ.

Also @ the OP I wouldn't be surprised if he was a botter himself.. the explanation he gave for why he figured out it was a bot was kinda hard for me to believe, I too would heal an ally that life saced himself at the beginning of the match if nothing more than to amuse myself in an arena filled with boring copies of the same sin or ranger build.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were a agent of gamerevision, as i'm sure there are many here right now reading and posting, looking for ways to turn the discussion around.
Well i'm reading their side too, you guys are certainly digging you're own graves on this one, and the best part about this is the devs are reading this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinkies
To be completly honest not banning botters is actually probably working well for Anet, more people are buying more accounts to bot on and Anet can focus their priorities on other things such as new content and GW2. I hope Anet doesn't ban the botters (except the PvP interupt ones) and uses their time instead to work on ADDING TA BACK!!
See above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Azunai < Bot creator
i should change one skill ;P changeing slot 5 to veil

like Martin Alvito said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harboe < Bot creator
Good idea, Martin is an awesome guy Great rollerbeetler too, hehe.
@Martin, do you know them? they know you.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Narita View Post
With bots at that level of sophistication, I wonder what A-Net can really do about it?
My approach would be to build a profile of things that either (a) the bot does that humans generally cannot, or (b) humans generally do, but the bot cannot. The first class of things must exist if the bot is to have any advantage over humans. The second exists as a reality of AI programming (at least for the foreseeable future).

In category (a), the biggest red flag is going to be fast reflexes. Simply log the time elapsed between damage events and heal events (and cast-start events and interrupt events) and flag anyone whose average is faster than a certain threshhold.

In category (b), the biggest red flag is going to be the good old Turing Test. AI can't hold a convincing conversation on general topics for very long, and even holding a convincing conversation on a limited topic requires significant work. If you've encountered a bot in-game, I'm sure you know that they typically either don't talk, or use a repetitive script.

That should give us a good basis to start with. Flag every RA monk who's both real fast to react and silent or repetitive in conversation. Now watch replays of their matches. Yes, ban the ones who look like bots. But, more importantly, look for other telltale signs of the bot to build your profile. Does it never make a sacrificial cast into Shame when a human might? Does it always stand a fixed distance from another player? Does it always kite in the same pattern? Etc. Identify some traits that are easy to scan for and build an automated system to flag suspects for human review.

Neo Atomisk

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneliness View Post
Problem is when theres two or more of them in the same team which happened last night soon there be 3-4 on the same team on regular accassions but still these bots are better than no monk or bad players, i found it fun playing mesmer just backfire them and put cover hexes on so they cant remove it and watch um die.
if the bot detects 2 or more monks on the team it leaves or resigns.

pumpkin pie

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

How much more evidence does ArenaNet need to start doing something about botting?

Yes talking to you ArenaNet

TwistedTerror

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Mar 2010

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by snikerz View Post
Well i'm reading their side too, you guys are certainly digging you're own graves on this one, and the best part about this is the devs are reading this.
You really think Anet is now going to go on ban crusade, now? Guild Wars is a dying game, at best they'll ban the ones who get reported enough. And so what if you ban them? They'll just be right back up with another account. Accounts are easy to get, look at the Black Market on elitepvpers or Gamerevision, you can buy a proph account for like 50 ectos, maybe 2-3 days of bot work.

Read http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_talk:Gaile_Gray#Current_Farming_Bot_Hot_Spots .3F, Apparently even Anet is under the impression that people don't make money off PvP farming

StormX

StormX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

E/Mo

Yeah those talking bots are something else...(at least if they're afking you can get your teammates to report them as leechers) I encountered a guy in CB arena who denied botting when I accused him, and then proceeded to ask me if you could get perma banned for botting...=___= Incidentally this same guy bots almost every holiday event... he has a few different characters with similar names and the same guild tag. I happned to be in the snowball arena when he was running his monk bot and whenever you said his name he would reply with one word "lag"

anyway boy am I glad I don't play RA anymore. I'd be interested to see Regina's reply... or rather, her lack of it....

Higurashi

Higurashi

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2009

[Lod]

A/

bots are annoying the talking bots in particular but all online games have them so i learn to ignore them

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk View Post
If this comes into play they'll probably start to add random elements to it, slightly decreasing efficiency but making it much harder to identify.
If you don't know what traits a-net is scanning for, you don't know which elements to randomize. You could randomize them all to a degree that their behavior on any given point is indistinguishable from a human player, but that would destroy any advantage the bot had over a human player in the first place.

TwistedTerror

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Mar 2010

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
If you don't know what traits a-net is scanning for, you don't know which elements to randomize. You could randomize them all to a degree that their behavior on any given point is indistinguishable from a human player, but that would destroy any advantage the bot had over a human player in the first place.
except the part where you dont have to play

GWfan#1

GWfan#1

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

My Character Liked Gwen [First]

R/

I was suspicious of one of these monk bots the other day while playing in RA.

1st sign: We talked trash about how bad his/her monking was, no replies.

2nd sign: In the Seabed Arena I would playfully run around the damaging coral after a match and the monk would constantly heal me (also in the lava within the Crag "Kill Count" level).

Definitely "botlike" behavior coming from that monk. So there is my two cents.

ashesofalar

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2010

Insight-Medivh

Rt/

RA bots are fun when you get them and bad when your against them, sad.

Regulus X

Regulus X

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

N/A

D/W

Bots are bad when you get them, and badder when you're against them. It's sad knowing that everyone else is actually at their keyboards playing hard and applying themselves while the botters are hardly playing, or are probably at the movies, the beach, or just hands-free at the computer going "LOLOLOLOLOLOL" while they're raking in balthazar faction & glad points/fame/etc.. while replying to others when applicable so that they don't get caught botting, and getting away with it. It's called "cheating", and it's unfair to those that do invest their time doing it right (by actually playing the game!). It also degrades PvP titles in the eyes of many (not all, but many...), and while it's not all that critical of an issue, the principalities do matter!).

shoyon456

shoyon456

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWfan#1 View Post
I was suspicious of one of these monk bots the other day while playing in RA.
We've located the problem, Captain.

Seriously, if you're that annoyed, then boycott RA. I've been doing that since NF. If you're under the impression that GW is still a PvP game, EOTN begs to differ.

EDIT: Yes yes, botting is terrible of course. But there will always be cheaters and people who try to work outside of the system. It's Anet's job to do something about it, but they can't catch everyone all of the time.

capashen

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2009

The Kaos Order [TKO]

E/

i think that botter are stupid

Darth The Xx

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Sen'jin Village

The Infamous Cake Bandits [cake]

Mo/W

The only problematic bots IMO are the interupt bots, these provide a significant advantage over the people who don't have them.

Farming bots on the other hand just provide bonus money in a game where better gear means nothing. Think of it this way, would you be jealous of some dude who stole $1million from a bank when you work your ass off every day? Probably, but would you yourself go and rob a bank? Probably not. While you live your life, the other dude laughs his off at his successful heist and lives the rest of his life looking over his shoulder.

Also if you can't beat a monk bot then just simply get good, they're really, really stupid. I think if you report them enough though they get banned, I'm sure you all remember Rufie, I havn't seen him around in a long time.

capashen

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2009

The Kaos Order [TKO]

E/

botter are hardly banned , go in HA ID1 and see XXXXX he is the first botter XD

Regulus X

Regulus X

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

N/A

D/W

Let me sum up all cheaters using this nifty little visual reference:



Mokeiro

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2009

We will see soon bots for sale in the online store, it seems it's the only thing that matters now for anet, to get more money...

Mini Vizu

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokeiro View Post
We will see soon bots for sale in the online store, it seems it's the only thing that matters now for anet, to get more money...
5th year store addition is all campaign account with a 2 week free pass from banning.

niek2004

niek2004

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Afk in Gh.

Old N Dirty[ym] Good Tactics[Good]

P/Rt

File authenticy check will get implemented. A giant list will be made, after a month a mass ban comes, anet makes shitloads of money from all the poor players buying new accounts


in reality; nothing will happen, enjoy your free keys.

lemming

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

Quote:
Originally Posted by capashen View Post
botter are hardly banned , go in HA ID1 and see XXXXX he is the first botter XD
????????????????

spun ducky

spun ducky

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

WTB: q8 bows

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by niek2004 View Post
File authenticy check will get implemented. A giant list will be made, after a month a mass ban comes, anet makes shitloads of money from all the poor players buying new accounts


in reality; nothing will happen, enjoy your free keys.
A file consistency check already exist in gw. The current bots get into the game the same way most cheats for first person shooters work. The main tactic generally to use whatever means necessary to inject a .DLL into the game's process thus removing the issues of memory access from outside programs and the ability to call functions natively.

The result is you must combat the bots just like you would for other games based on the same cheat concept. This is done through monitoring the import address table, kernel hooks, and various other methods like windows detours. What I am saying is GW would need an anti cheat program on par with something like punkbuster to at least slow down the bots.

In a game this old there has been proper time to do memory dumps,packet sniffing, and other reverse engineering so that the mechanics of the game are well known at an engine level. I had thoughts at one point about what if you used the same methods as them to create pseudo heroes aka a player that follows and runs a bar much like a normal hero to surpass the issue of the hero limit and also gain the extra loot. It would be a bot but in a different way.

I shall stop my rant now as I have plenty of code to write today.

capashen

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2009

The Kaos Order [TKO]

E/

just found this

R_Frost

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

California

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
Did pulling out the banhammer stop PvE botting? I don't think so. The problem is similar; winning in RA makes zkeys, which can be resold.

Until (unless) ANet figures out a solution to the problem, all you can do is attack the bot at its points of weakness. You note that the bot cannot pre-Veil, and that it can detect Shame/Backfire/Diversion. What does it do when these hexes land on it? Stop casting for the duration?

If so, the solution is obvious. If not, you can exploit its response.
well all the past game changes havent done anything. loot scaling, nerf of bot heavy areas, nerf of builds. all had an affect on the non-boots more then the botters. un-do most of the nerfs making it easier for the rest of us to get gold and the bots are doing nothing more them wasting bandwidth. the economy has been in the crapper for a long time anyways so who cares if gold becomes easier to get.

axe

axe

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Pwn Appetit [NJoy]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
Did pulling out the banhammer stop PvE botting? I don't think so. The problem is similar; winning in RA makes zkeys, which can be resold.

Until (unless) ANet figures out a solution to the problem, all you can do is attack the bot at its points of weakness. You note that the bot cannot pre-Veil, and that it can detect Shame/Backfire/Diversion. What does it do when these hexes land on it? Stop casting for the duration?

If so, the solution is obvious. If not, you can exploit its response.
Banning botters has to happen, its the same thing as the Red Resign that spiraled out of control, once the "honest" players see that nothing is done, then the problem becomes exponentially worse.

Beating the bots or being able to exploit their weaknesses is irrelevant it is against the EULA, people get banned for using inappropriate language in this game IN PVP NO LESS, how is it any different to expect Anet to ban users in PvP arena's that are actually cheating when they can ban you for language. If they ban for EULA violations in one case, then it needs to be enforced in all cases.