Policy and morallity on exploited items

You have the imagination of a frog. Let me help you by telling you MY reasons for using E/Me to manually farm Raptors (no bot):

I was using an E/Me before W/N became prevalent.
I don't have a Warrior at Rata Sum.
My only Warrior is a storage mule, I CBA to run her to Rata Sum, get skills, runes, equipment etc
I mainly farm Raptors for event items - W/N speed advantage is much smaller when event items are dropping.
I don't farm for profit - I just farm enough event cupcakes/pumpkin pies/whatever to last me a year. This doesn't take such a long time - so switching to W/N wouldn't save me huge amounts of farming time.
I still suspect there might be a shred of truth in the superstition, that blowing everything up at once (W/N), gives less drops than killing one-at-a-time (E/Me). So if I'm farming a few golds for my Wisdom title, I prefer E/Me.
E/Me build is much easier to use than W/N (my opinion)

So I stick with E/Me... and I can do without idiots thinking I'm a bot, just because I made that choice.

No. But like others, I'm not convinced we're getting the whole story here. Seems unlike Gaile to let something like this drag on for a year, if it's as clear cut as you describe.

I agree on your zero tolerance (As long as there is proof you abused an exploit, rather than just are the victim of it), and this was the reply I was hoping for, because this is how the support (and Gaile) feels. With you having a similar mindset, please reply to me this:

What if an exploiter duplicates 100 ectos, and then sells those ectos a little bit under the market price to a person who is unaware that those ecto's are duplicated.

You would permanently ban the buyer in this transaction, despite him having no way of knowing those ectos were duplicated?

Cuz (and this is what I tell to support) if you believe I deserve to be banned for my actions, you're saying that this person should be banned too? Why?

@ Riot:

This really is all there is too tell... I buy a monk tome to get LS + LDoA. I abide by the new policy rules. A year after the facts, I get banned and I contact support. A year after arguing with support, who refuses any contact with me (They stonewall me with: 'all reviews have been made, we wont help you any further'), I contact Gaile on wiki. She actually seems helpfull at the start, and says she'll look into things. (This was in Oktober '09) Within a couple of days, I got her to say as much as: "Even if I wanted to unbann you, it wouldn't be possible because you have an unfair advantage over other players by having LS and LDoA in your HoM" at which I replied: "I did NOT add LS or LDoA to HoM on my Monk, on top of that, I'm willing to have the character deleted, so there would be no trace whatsoever on the acount" at which she replied: "All reviews have been made, I can no longer help you" and ignore the rest of my emails.

Look, it's been 3 (2.5) years since the facts, 1.5 years since I got banned and I'm still nog giving up. Do you really think I'dd go this far, send over 50 emails to the American Support, the German Support, Gaile and Regina if I knew I hacked the game?

The truth is that they know I didn't hack the game, they admitted it. The truth is that they know they can revert my acount (Gaile said this), they know they can revert every impact the tome had on my acount and they know I'm not a hacker/exploiter but rather someone who simply bought exploited items.

Yet they still don't want to go through the efforts of unbanning me for whatever reason they might have. They say it's because "it would set a bad example", which seems redicilous if you look how they ignore more severe issue such as PvP bots and others... (Do they believe that doesn't set a bad example? Allowing PvP to get farmed by bots)

Justified ban.


Read the bolded part.




People whom attempt LDoA obviously know the workings of Guild Wars and Pre-Searing. So that to me proves indefinately that you KNOWINGLY BOUGHT AN EXPLOITED ITEM for your own gain (which is a very big deal and why people are permanently banned for it).




You claim "oh the rules did not change until blabh blah blah". Well, if I recall correctly, the box clearly says "Game experience may change during online play". This includes, but is not limited to, Arena.Net's EULA/ToS.

You keep comparing this case to a completely different case involving duped ectos.

In your made up cases, there's no way for the buyer to know the ectos were duped and exploited, in your case it's clear because the items do not belong in pre.

Stop bring up, "oh, he broke the rules, too," the fact is that YOU did and YOU were banned.

"The only proof there ever was of me exploiting Guild Wars was simply me buying an item"

They used the proof and banned you based on it.

I was unfairly perma-banned because someone took a joke I said too far. The ban was lifted four days later.


From my assumptions reading this issue from both pages, he bought a glitched item (I'm assuming a tome?), and at the time there was no policy stating that these items were "illegal." Then, when the policy went up, he transferred that character and the item over to post-searing.


Hm. Still seems kind of harsh to me.

Edit:

Seems like I should have read the rest of the page.

I dunno, still torn on a justified ban or not.

You got banned again?
I am surprised you are still not done with this game. But thats not the issue at hand here.

Oddly enough I have some sympathy left for you. A ban is always a harsh punishment considering the time and money you have spent.

However, you as a long time player and having faced support and punishment before should have been more careful in the transactions you make or made. You did know that those tomes weren't meant to be purchasable in pre-searing and you were from your game experience more then aware that it would be an 'illegal' attempt (2006). Doesn't matter if there was a law aka the EULA at that time... You were aware of this falling into the gray area and should have taken steps yourself to report that matter instead of 'gaining an advantage of it' and hope to sneak by consequences because it is not written 'law' (read EULA again) yet.

It's not my call to judge the righteousness of your punishment. However you (of all) should have known better. I have sympathy (for you as a fellow gamer) but no pity left for you (as the person you are). You simply should have known better. Enjoy real life.

Sorry, but your story doesn't hold water. If you were going for LDoA you weren't new to the game with no clue that tomes, Nightfall Greens, etc. could only get to Pre by way of an exploit. You had full knowledge that this isn't/wasn't how Pre works. And even so you very knowingly involved yourself and your account in an exploit. It doesn't matter what everyone else was doing, it doesn't matter who posted what on a fansite. (By the way, A-Net doesn't have official forums, and you know it -- stop acting as if this was official information.)

I also remember some months ago when you posted that support had placed you on a "universal ignore" list. I'm thinking you weren't the nicest person around when you started dealing with them and, since Gaile says very clearly in her post that decisions would be made on an account by account basis, that was a huge mistake. Don't piss off the people that get to decide whether or not you get your account back. It's dumb.

So... you finished off LDoA before you moved that character to Post? And used that illegal hard rez and a second account so that you could get Legendary Survivor and LDoA on the same character? Did they not notice until both titles showed up in your HoM, and that's why it took so long for the ban to happen?

Sounds like an exploit to me. I think Gaile is right, the account is tainted.

The only things to be learned from all this are.

Only those guilty should be punished, such punishment should be reasonable and timely.

They should be absolutely clear as to the offence the evidence they have and there should be an appeals procedure.

The system should never allow a stream of short term bans for players who abuse the system multiple times.
If they refuse to learn then perm ban should follow.

On available evidence ie your side of the argument you probably have a case for reinstatement but as ever in these cases we can never be sure we have heard the whole story.

I am a little puzzled by the idea that you got the item to achieve something that you were sure wasn't possible anyway.
Maybe you thought having this skill would somehow bypass the code logging pre searing deaths and give you survivor.

I always thought legendary defender a stupid title anyway how the heck do you defend a country better by dying a lot and thereby making the invaders stronger thus learning more from fighting them.

The one who thought that up needs serious psychiatric help or at least removing from society in case their ideas catch on.

Anyway good luck with your appeal Anet needs people like you as its only by players finding and using these exploits that they get to know of them and then remove them.

You knowingly bought an exploited item to get an unfair advantage over the pre-searing population. I'm glad they banned you, that's one less exploited item in the game.

unfortunatly u fall under the 'i know its wrong but ill try it anyway' bracket and got caught..a mate of mine lost 34 titles and a full set of 20/20 canthan staves (nearly every skin)...because he was using a G11 keyboard while farming raptors (not afk farming he was sat at the PC)...so u both gambled and lost.

If it's obvious they're not going to change their opinion, why come here?
That's because we're not. Pardon me for not believing a word of this.

AH! I just realized who you are in-game. Well, allow me to give a more in-depth reply.


I am not a fan of permanent bans. Having myself been a victim of having a priceless account being perma'd, I know it's an extremely hurtful experience. But it is within' Arena.Net's right to suspend/perma ban whoever they see fit. In this case, they chose you (it was Kyle who reported you out of spite if I remember correctly, which is f'ed up in its own).


But regardless or not, you just should not have bought it and honestly you know this to be true.


You lost a lot of work and time on your account, I know first hand how much work you put into that account having been there myself for over 3k+ of your fame. Yes, it sucks starting over. Yes, a perma ban is harsh. Yes, banning for something that happened so long ago seems so wrong on so many levels.


But in the end, you were just simply caught 2 years later. It's like with inappropriate charactre names- just because you have had a character with the name "i suk u long time" (an example) for the last 5 years doesn't make it okay. If/when someone reports you for it, Support will take action.



Good luck, though. Here's hoping.

How does that prove to you I knowingly bought an exploited item? Please read to my intire post first before replying. I clearly stated that new updates were being releases in Pre-Searing, aswell as the existence of other glitched items which were in fact tolerated was enough reason for me to believe these items were legit. And apperently hundreds of other people, aswell as the 2 Site Admins of an official fan-site agreed with me on that one, as they all bought and sold these items in the period between release and policy changes.

I simply do not know what to reply to your "Game experience may change during online play", because that statement can be brought up in every thread here on guru.

Bots in PvP? "Game experience may change during online play" No biggie.

People duping items? "Game experience may change during online play" Duping is now allowed.

Etc.

What happened is that something was not against the EULA on one day, and it was the other. As a result, I got banned for this. This has got nothing to do with: "Game experience may change during online play".


@ timebandit,

That was al long time before I bought the tome. And yes, hacking a tome into Pre-Searing is illegal. Quote me on saying it isn't. The truth, however, is that I did not hack a tome into Pre-Searing. I bought a tome that was already there. Wether or not this was the result of an exploit is something I could not have known.


@ Another Felldspar,

Nowhere in the EULA does it state tomes, NF greens and whatever other items are illegal in Pre-Searing. It does matter what gets posted on official forums. Or are you hereby implying that what Gaile says isn't true? You seem to forget that Gaile herself said those things mentioned in this thread, not some random person.
On top of that, an elite fanpage does hold some value. If there were a big banner on guru all of a sudden saying: "Bots are allowed", watch how many people would hold value to this and watch how fast guru would loose it's elite status.
www.presearing.com promoted the trade of these very items that got me banned.

By the time Gaile released her new policy, I had already gotten my titles, and moved to Post-Searing. I abided every rule she put up. I did not add any titles to the HoM.

I came here to see what other people believed, and mainly to understand the reasoning behind banning people who are unaware they're buying glitched items.

And believe me when I say, you are hearing the truth. On these 3 pages, aswell as on the wiki page is everything I can recall about this issue. I bought an exploited item despite knowing it was exploited. I got both titles. The policy changed, I abided by the new rules. A year orso later Kyle (A PvP friend, I thaught) reports me as a joke (He demanded 100K for fun, I said no, he then reported me saying I was a hacker. I'm not even kidding) and I get perm banned.

I struggle about a year with this GM LemonCobra guy who keeps saying I am a hacker, despite there being any proof I am a hacker. He then finally admits there was no proof I hacked, but I bought a hacked item nontheless, and from thereone who stonewalls me with: "all reviews have been made".

I contact Gaile, asking her to pull a few strings. She does the review and admits mistakes have been made. She brings up the fact that I got banned before (for offensive names) aswell as the fact that I added both titles to HoM (Which I dind't) a valid reason to keep me banned and stonewalls me from there on.

End of story, I'm not giving up.

Yes you did. That is why I linked the earlier post of yours. You were well aware of that it is not possible to achieve both titles in pre-searing and that any way of doing so is possibly to be considered 'illegal' (even by yourself).

Like I said before, it's not my call to judge your punishment as righteous. However, you knew at the time of the trade that you are moving in gray area and did choose not to report it. Bad judgment on your side back than.

As I said, I knew all along Post-Searing items in Pre-Searing were a grey-zone all along. I never said I dind't. However, Anet took up the policy of toleration, in which they said they won't hunt down people with these items, and won't even ban them for it. It was ok to have the items as long as noone had a problem with it.

And you can ask anyone on the Pre-Searing forum that was around at that time. Post-Searing items in pre-searing were far from illegal. Vamp mods, sup runes, despite being extremely rare got sold every now and then. When the new influx came around, noone could have known it was an exploit.

There were enough other viable theories, such as the one with the character left in the GH or a new hidden update. (As they did with charr bags, kits and professor yakkington -that was alot later though)

I'm sorry that I don't go thinking: "That is a hack" at every new thing I see. But tell yourself this, when Guild Wars gets updated, and you see a new thing before reading the update notes, do you immediatly think it was an exploit? I don't think so.

When you saw Zaishen Keys for the first time, did you expect someone hacked the game to make an invisible item visible? No you dind't. This is exactly the same thing here.

Either the few bosses in Pre-Searing now dropped tomes, there was a new outpost/area, whatever. It didn't matter,the point was that there was enough reason to believe other stuff than "These items were the result of an exploit' especially after the many campaigns of Anet saying there is no such thing as hacks. (The old login info said hacks did not exist to prevent people from getting their acounts stolen)

So if you wanna go down the "moral" road, I aswell as everyone else had enough reasons not to assume they were from an exploit, let alone could get you banned.

Yes, I know the story. You're not a hacker, that is common sense. Buying an exploitable item doesn't make you a "OMGWTFYOU'REAHACKER", but buying it (sorry Borat, but tbh you are still guilty of having bought the tome to begin with, whether you claim you did or did not know it was exploited) does make your account "tainted" when you have both LS and LDoA.


Personally I didn't care you had both. When you told us on Vent that you did I thought it was neat, regardless how you obtained it. My feelings on the matter went no further than that. It wasn't, and isn't, my place to judge the worth of someone on 1 action.


But good luck, Borat. Once more: "Here's hoping."

So you got both LDoA and Legendary Survivor and moved to Post with them and got banned? You should have deleted the character instead. If you did delete then I don't see why you shouldn't get your account back. At least be given a second chance.

I admit my acount was made tainted, no doubt about it. But did it have such a big impact on the community? Ok, I bragged about it to close friends a handfull of times, but when HoM was made acount-wide, I had exactly 0 advantage over anyone else.

And deleting the character crossed my mind, but ask yourself this:

If you spend 7 days clicking a ressurection skill 8 hours a day, would you still delete that character afterwards even if you followed the new rules?

As far as I was concerned I:

1) Deleted the exploited items
2) Move the tainted character to Post-Searing

and thus abiding all the rules Gaile told us to follow. The fact that I had LS and LDoA was besides that particular issue, and when HoM was made acount wide completely irrelevent.

If that person bought ecto in pre-searing, I think he should be banned because an average gamer should know that ectos don't belong in pre. So the ecto must be an exploit. The same with tome in your situation coz tomes dont drop in pre. although i am not accusing you guilty of coming up with the exploit, you intentionally bought exploited goods to gain an unfair advantage (you said it yourself that you need a hard rez to go after the title). I think buying stolen goods knowingly is a felony in many states (see the recent Gizmodo Apple 4G phone saga).

Again, ectos can be found in Pre-Searing. The infamous Guild Hall glitch brought many items into Pre-Searing (Altough, I don't understand why anyone would bring ectos back), and those could have included ecto's.

Anet said they wouldn't ban for these items, and frankly didn't care.

So no, he shouldn't be banned, because Anet specifically said they wouldn't ban for it.

And let me post some quotes made by Gaile:

Which clearly states that uptill the policy changes, they wouldn't ban anyone for glitched items. Hence it was safe to conclude you wouldn't get banned for these new items either.

Clearly, black on white states they wont ban anyone who has a tome, yet this seem to have been forgotten when they reviewed my acount, which didn't even have a tome, nor an illegal skill Pre-Searing because I wasn't even in Pre-Searing anymore. The person who reviewed my acount did not review it at all, or he would have found these statements specifically dealing with Pre-Searing. Instead, he just opted for the perm ban which was obviously the far easier choice...

Shouldn't matter how many days are involved, if I bring character into post knowing it has two titles I exploiting via another exploit. I should know full well that continuing to keep that character paints a huge bulls-eye on my account.

You exploited the game thrice, first with a tome, second with the two titles, third when you brought the character into post which would have made GWAMM 1 title easier. Sure the third might seem small but still exploiting nonetheless. In essence, you gave yourself three strikes. You could have kept it at two by deleting your character.

Hope you get your account back though, hopefully the character can be deleted. I know I'd hate it if one of my accounts got banned, all the time I've invested. Good luck.

EDIT: Also if we were looking at it from "how much time I spent" perspective. Which would be more logical losing that one character that you spent 7 days on, or losing an entire account you spent however many years on?

No, the account made zero impact on the community, apart from rolling teams in tombz of course. :P


Yes, bragging is fine when it's to your FRIENDS (hell, I do it all the time, lol). That is why they are called FRIENDS, you're supposed to be able to TRUST THEM. But... In the end, it seems Kyle was obviously not a friend. I personally think the kid reported you out of spite since he was so sore about getting perma banned a few hundred fame short of his bird.



On-topic: Deleting the character should be an option, imo. Support, or rather, their GM Phields (the lead GM) should ask you specifically "do you want your Monk deleted? Yes or no? If you reply "yes", they restore your account back to you and you stay out of trouble.


This includes inappropriate character names and inappropriate language.

Buy a new game and don't do anything in a gray area anymore? Besides that, idk what to tell you. It's their game and they can do whatever they want.

I've thought about buying a new copy of Guild Wars (I'm currently using a second PvP only acc, which I already payed for. So they already squeezed money out of me), especially with the steam promotion, BUT the problem is I really want to use my email for the acount email. Especially when it's going to get carried on to GW2, I can't be asked making a new random email adress, knowing I'll have to use it for GW2 aswell.

On top of that, I really had a thing with my character names. (Including the Monk on which the alledged crimes happened) I really looked forward to reserving these names in GW2 aswell, which is something won't happen now.

And lastly, it simply won't be my acount. That acount was my acount, and always will be. I've put over 7K hours into it (maybe even more), I've achieved many PvP titles (Including commander which can NOT be gotten anymore, so that's anything thing I'll miss out on) which I simply won't be able to get by the time GW2 comes around.

I simply shouldn't be forced into spending money when I know I didn't do anything to deserve a permanent ban.

Have you tried writing support an apology letter of sorts? If you explain to them that you now fully understand that what you did wasn't right at the time, and would promise the immediate deletion of the character that is exploited. I know it's a huge shot in the dark, and I don't know if you have done it already, but it's worth a shot isn't it? Or no?

you didn't delete the exploided item... you used it... and it was a tome so there is not way to fix your cheat... you can't delete the skill you have learned

edit: also... considering what others have said here... is clear that it wasn't the first time you try some kind of cheat... so I think you should know better...

Why? If someone has shown a clear disregard for the rules on more than one occasion, why would there be the expectation that they will suddenly develop respect for the rules, or respect for the people that share the game, or respect for the support people that enforce the rules?

This player has shown that they don't have respect for any of those things. I don't think the account should be reinstated, with or without the monk. Cheaters cheat. This is a cheater. And besides cheating this one has no respect for the game itself or the people that share the game world. Otherwise, there wouldn't be more than one instance of banning for inappropriate names or inappropriate language, and there wouldn't be a universal ignore from support.

Play nice or don't play. That's enforceable, and it has been enforced. There are too many previous black marks with this one final big black mark -- the account is gone, as it should be.

I have apologized (For something I didn't do), I have begged, I have gotten anrgy, I have gotten pathetic, I have threatened, I have done just about every trick in the book.

Aside from 90% of my emails getting ignored completely, all I got back was: "All reviews have been made, the acount remains locked".

I also tried to make them understand the logic that if I deserve to be banned, so does every other person who has ever gotten a duped item in his hands. Most of those emails simply get ignored.

On a few good days, I got the GM to say a little bit, driving him as far as having him admit I dind't hack the game, but that I'm staying banned because purchasing these items is a bannable offence. At which I link them to the official quotes by Gaile herself where she states they don't ban people for these items. And as soon as I get them cornered, the reply email is: 'All reviews have been made, the acount stays locked'.

Sorry Killed, don't know what else to say. I do believe that everyone should be given a second chance, but apparently it looks (from what you've typed) you won't be getting it. I wish you luck on your new account, maybe you can get support to unlock your email from that account so you can assign it to a new one. I guess if anything you can get out of this is to be extremely careful in what you do in Guild Wars and to keep common sense at your side at all times.

The intire point of a tome is to use it.

Having a tome, or having used a tome were cleary one and the same thing here. You had to move your character to post searing, which is exactly what I did. I followed the rules.

I have a friend who got banned for a week for having the name 'Six Is a Ninja'. Apparently, someone reported him saying it was offensive, and he was forced to change it. (Which isn't that bad cuz he got a free name changed, but the ban was redicilous nontheless)

The support clearly doesn't take these name reports too seriously, and neither did they with me. As a person who PvP's alot, I have alot of "enemies", as does just about every other HA'er. (Simply ganking someone is enough to have his intire team report you for an offensive name)

Alot of the names were not offensive in the least bit, but rather "joke" reports from certain people I mocked on these forums.

Borat Is a Flower can probably get you banned if enough people report you. The previous number of commited violations shouldn't matter when dealing with a completely different kind.

well what i think or do is get mad. rage it! then go buy GW for (all three what now?) $30 and enjoy it. but really i probably just quit because of these stupid policy. It's not worth the time or effort.

As much as i love GW and A-net. Getting banned for what you said and bending over back ward is not worth it. I have money and ready to spend it. if they want my money i'm ready to spend it. But i rather spend it somewhere else.

To the OP, i feel for you and this is what i "think of the issue".

I don't think the tome is the only issue, you had a character with two titles that couldn't be normally achieved in the game and brought it into post searing instead of deleting it. I don't think you were banned just for the tome, you were probably also banned for having the two titles as well. But that's just my reasoning.

Having both titles is not a breach of the EULA. Therefore they can't be the ground for banning me. Otherwise, they might as well have said that they banned me for having a green garden. (Which is just as redicilous)

And even if this was the intire issue, why wasn't the character deleted? If they knew I dind't hack the game, but rather the titles were the issue, why did they ban me for abusing an exploit? Shouldn't they have banned me for having LS and LDoA? Shouldn't they have simple removed the character or titles?

That seemed a far drastic measure for something that wasn't against the EULA

been following since the beginning..

i don't get the point of this thread.

are you:
just telling a story of your experience?
looking for others to agree/disagree with you?
hoping someone from anet will read this and do something about it?

because i don't see anything happening for you after all you have written and the time you said you have spent.

and since this is an opinion-fest.. mine is...

so long as we are forced to use private forums for official inquiries.. anet has no reason to bother with this thread or any of the others.

if that was the OP's reason for the thread creation.

em....
Frog have mercy on me! i'm gonna side with the OP. i know the whole "if you're not with us you're against us" thing. but i'm assuming he/she boguht a duped item, without knowing it was duped. in that way even if it was given as a gift, he/she wouldn't have done anything to exploit GW. he/she would have unknowlingly bought something, supporting someone who did violate the rules. but since they didn't intend to do anything wrong then they should be fine right :O?

i'd say fight for what you believe in ;D! yes it's corny but that's how i feel about things.
after all you can always get another copy of GW pretty cheaply and continue negotiating with Anet.

If you got LDoA and Legendary Survivor on the same character, that's the smoking gun proving you're a sophisticated player that knew what you were doing. They've been pretty consistent about swinging the banhammer in situations where you could not possibly have achieved the result without exploiting the game (eg: Ebony Citadel of Mallyx, dupe). You can't hide behind the EULA here; this is a Rules of Conduct issue and they are well within their rights to ban you.

I agree that the current vague policy is lousy, but given the full story it doesn't sound like you've been singled out or treated unfairly in any way. Truth be told, you should count yourself fortunate that you retained your account for a single day after maxing the second incompatible title.

you conveniently follow the rules just AFTER you got the tittles... thanks to the USE of this tome... do you really don't see that you just cheat??? why do you think that is considered illegal to have such items on preasering???? is not that moving your character from presearing fixed the fact that you got 2 tittles cheating...

You knew what you were doing. The only reason you're sorry is because you got caught. The ban is just. Take it like a man.

2 words for OP.

premeditated exploit.