Seeing as how they nerfed Fast Casting so that it doesn't work on outside profession spells that are under two seconds, to make sure mesmers don't go out of class, soul reaping and ES need to be nerfed too in order to make sure necros stay as necros and els stay as els.
For necros, they should only get the energy from a kill if a mob was killed by the necro using a necro spell. That'll prevent them from going N/rt. Likewise Energy storage should be nerfed such that only el spells can draw from the extra energy and that is only after their normal pool that all skills can use has been exhausted. Plus energy storage skills should only effect el spells and only trigger on them.
Soul Reaping and Energy Storage should be nerfed
Winterclaw
Marty Silverblade
/notsigned. There isn't anything wrong with either of those attributes. Besides, other than ER Infuse Prot and ER Orders there really isn't much reason to run Ele's at all. Making ER only affect Ele skills (or at least be less effective for non-Ele spells) and giving Ele's spammable skills worth using is a better solution.
Also,
That will probably reduce SR to about 0.001% of it's current usefulness. Again, it's not like N/Rt is a problem.
Also,
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| For necros, they should only get the energy from a kill if a mob was killed by the necro using a necro spell. |
Lysinc
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Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade
/notsigned. There isn't anything wrong with either of those attributes.
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lemming
I don't know about how Fast Casting was used in PvE. All I know is that the advent of uninterruptible midliners in GvG killed shutdown and made the game quite a bit less interesting to play.
Energy Storage was already awful; why does it need to be worse?
Energy Storage was already awful; why does it need to be worse?
Eragon Zarroc
soul reaping was already nerfed once by limiting the energy gain you can get to only 3 times every 15 seconds. How is energy storage overpowered? lmao. eles need the energy for their high energy skills...
and how does nerfing energy management attributes of other classes in anyway balance them with an attribute of another class that has NOTHING to do with energy management?
/notsigned
what are you thinking...
and how does nerfing energy management attributes of other classes in anyway balance them with an attribute of another class that has NOTHING to do with energy management?
/notsigned
what are you thinking...
Winterclaw
Well I was just thinking, if we are going to nerf a profession so it can't use it's primary for skills outside of that profession (like divine favor doesn't work on any other class's spells) maybe we should make a rule that primary attributes and their skills should only work on abilities within that class.
Gennadios
Not against the idea per se, but the way you're suggestion going about it... 2 different regions of an ele energy bar? One to handle all spells, one to handle ele?
Soul reaping checking if the dead enemy had a necro hex before triggering?
Ug.
Soul reaping checking if the dead enemy had a necro hex before triggering?
Ug.
Eragon Zarroc
maybe we should just make divine favor work on other classes spells and only edit one primary attribute in a beneficial way instead of multiple primary attributes in a negative way ;-) why punish all the other primary attributes 
Chthon
/notsigned
1. GW is supposed to feature dual-class characters. The fact that the only way a-net can come up with to "fix" mesmers involves forcing them to be uni-class characters is a sign that (a) mesmers have really bad problems -- maybe even problems with no good solutions -- and (b) maybe a-net should re-think their intended solution. It does not mean that other classes should be messed up in a similar manner.
2. My opinions on SR should be well known. In any event, here's some additional food for thought: Energy is NOT a good with a linear utility function in GW; it's a stairstep function. Having more energy is not always better; it's only better when you have enough more to do something worthwhile that you couldn't before. Turns out that there's very few good skills in GW that aren't already affordable on "easy-access" e-management options that are available to any class, like GoLE. There's some necro, ranger, and mesmer skills (all of which are deliberately over-priced to compensate for those classes having e-management capabilities), and there's some monk skills (which require either DF or ER to use effectively), and that's about it. People are quick to point to N/Rt as the prime example of secondary abuse, but the broken part is the resto skills. Those who have been around here long enough may recall Carinane's proof-of-concept Me/Rt healer heroes that performed just as well as N/Rt heroes. Why? Because Inspiration gives enough energy to abuse Resto; the surplussage from SR is unnecessary.
3. ES is a terrible attribute. The only thing it has going for it is the fact that there's one good skill in it. (And I'd be loathe to break that skill right now, since it's the only thing keeping eles from being another total garbage class.)
1. GW is supposed to feature dual-class characters. The fact that the only way a-net can come up with to "fix" mesmers involves forcing them to be uni-class characters is a sign that (a) mesmers have really bad problems -- maybe even problems with no good solutions -- and (b) maybe a-net should re-think their intended solution. It does not mean that other classes should be messed up in a similar manner.
2. My opinions on SR should be well known. In any event, here's some additional food for thought: Energy is NOT a good with a linear utility function in GW; it's a stairstep function. Having more energy is not always better; it's only better when you have enough more to do something worthwhile that you couldn't before. Turns out that there's very few good skills in GW that aren't already affordable on "easy-access" e-management options that are available to any class, like GoLE. There's some necro, ranger, and mesmer skills (all of which are deliberately over-priced to compensate for those classes having e-management capabilities), and there's some monk skills (which require either DF or ER to use effectively), and that's about it. People are quick to point to N/Rt as the prime example of secondary abuse, but the broken part is the resto skills. Those who have been around here long enough may recall Carinane's proof-of-concept Me/Rt healer heroes that performed just as well as N/Rt heroes. Why? Because Inspiration gives enough energy to abuse Resto; the surplussage from SR is unnecessary.
3. ES is a terrible attribute. The only thing it has going for it is the fact that there's one good skill in it. (And I'd be loathe to break that skill right now, since it's the only thing keeping eles from being another total garbage class.)
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc
eles need the energy for their high energy skills...
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Del
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
Eles have skills that help to give them sustainable energy along with Ether Renewal which is mostly for monk skills.
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KZaske
/not signed. Anything I say beyond that would be insulting to the OP.
Rikimaru
You're some fast ones, huh? I'm pretty sure the original post was sarcastic.
If I'm wrong... I guess that just shows how much I would have to disagree with the idea. His second post does have me a little torn on whether or not he's serious.
If I'm wrong... I guess that just shows how much I would have to disagree with the idea. His second post does have me a little torn on whether or not he's serious.
Lord Dagon
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Originally Posted by Rikimaru
You're some fast ones, huh? I'm pretty sure the original post was sarcastic.
If I'm wrong... I guess that just shows how much I would have to disagree with the idea. His second post does have me a little torn on whether or not he's serious. |
@ OP /notsigned. leave eles alone.
FoxBat
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Originally Posted by Rikimaru
You're some fast ones, huh? I'm pretty sure the original post was sarcastic.
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The above attributes aren't an issue there, although you could make the case that soul reaping is still ruining PvE.
Bring up expertise and you may have a point, Albeit that was already nerfed once.
Del
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Originally Posted by Rikimaru
You're some fast ones, huh?
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SunfallE
/not signed
Seeing how SR was already reduced there's no need to dumb it down even further. And Ele's have high cost spells and ones that inflict exhaustion, so they're already restricted on some level. Strip ES and you'll need to reduce spell costs to balance it out, so why bother?
Seeing how SR was already reduced there's no need to dumb it down even further. And Ele's have high cost spells and ones that inflict exhaustion, so they're already restricted on some level. Strip ES and you'll need to reduce spell costs to balance it out, so why bother?
Skyy High
Troll thread say whaaaaaat?
reaper with no name
Soul reaping should be nerfed, but not like this.
Energy storage is fine, maybe even underpowered.
Also, quit whining. My mesmer is going to be hit hard by this too, and I created her for the express purpose of spamming EVAS. You don't see me complaining, do you? There is a need in this case to prevent mesmers from abusing FC on other professions' skills, but not one for energy storage and certain other attributes (though I will admit that the enchanced crit rate of critical strikes really needs to only apply to daggers). Don't forget, mesmers are getting huge buffs.
Energy storage is fine, maybe even underpowered.
Also, quit whining. My mesmer is going to be hit hard by this too, and I created her for the express purpose of spamming EVAS. You don't see me complaining, do you? There is a need in this case to prevent mesmers from abusing FC on other professions' skills, but not one for energy storage and certain other attributes (though I will admit that the enchanced crit rate of critical strikes really needs to only apply to daggers). Don't forget, mesmers are getting huge buffs.
Shriketalon
Make soul reaping have a different effect. "Every time a creature dies within earshot, you get one Soul. The next Necromancer skill you use has its energy cost reduced by 1 for each rank in Soul Reaping. Can only hold three souls at a time."
That'll keep the theme, make Soul Reaping great for Necros doing Necro things, but it WON'T allow them to dominate any other profession by having a limitless energy pool.
That'll keep the theme, make Soul Reaping great for Necros doing Necro things, but it WON'T allow them to dominate any other profession by having a limitless energy pool.
Terrible Surgeon
/not signed
Nerfing fast cast in pvp is long over due.
Nerfing fast cast in pvp is long over due.
Zahr Dalsk
Leave energy storage as it is; ether renewal is the problem.
And yes, nerf soul reaping. Crush it into the ground - in PvE. PvE is where we get all those problems with soul reaping.
And yes, nerf soul reaping. Crush it into the ground - in PvE. PvE is where we get all those problems with soul reaping.
Munkypoo7
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
-snipped for pointles complaining post-
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Tenebrae
Short answer : yes and no.
Changes to SR are so tricky anet dont want to go there again ..... dont think its gonna happen but sure , it needs a small nerf in terms of usage to make it less passive.
Changes to SR are so tricky anet dont want to go there again ..... dont think its gonna happen but sure , it needs a small nerf in terms of usage to make it less passive.
Smarty
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Originally Posted by lemming
I don't know about how Fast Casting was used in PvE. All I know is that the advent of uninterruptible midliners in GvG killed shutdown and made the game quite a bit less interesting to play.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Well I was just thinking, if we are going to nerf a profession so it can't use it's primary for skills outside of that profession (like divine favor doesn't work on any other class's spells) maybe we should make a rule that primary attributes and their skills should only work on abilities within that class.
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Reformed
The change hasn't gone live yet so you've neither the opportunity to use FC in conjunction with the skill update nor the knowledge that this is actually the final alteration. Dragging SR back out into the sun for 40 more lashes is also very funny to me. It's not even half of it's former glory which truly was bottomless energy potential. Is this going to happen now anytime something skill related is released that people don't like? 'If I go down I'm taking you with me!' isn't a solution--get over it already.
Axel Zinfandel
Dervishes and Paragons are next on Anet's list as they already stated, so if they're going to do anything it's those classes, then they'll see how everything is then.
/notsigned
/notsigned
Chthon
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Originally Posted by Shriketalon
Make soul reaping have a different effect. "Every time a creature dies within earshot, you get one Soul. The next Necromancer skill you use has its energy cost reduced by 1 for each rank in Soul Reaping. Can only hold three souls at a time."
That'll keep the theme, make Soul Reaping great for Necros doing Necro things, but it WON'T allow them to dominate any other profession by having a limitless energy pool. |
Really though, secondary abuse by necros is largely a myth. Any class with 4 pips of regen and a modicum of e-management can abuse Resto. What other sorts of N/X do you often see in place of plain X?
UnChosen
If anything every other primary attribute needs a major buff. Even with "infinite" energy the majority of players in the game FAIL horribly. All these calls for nerfs are like people saying Mario games are too easy when they're not the target audience in the first place.
jazilla
with 15 in FC i can get meteor shower to recharge 45% faster. I think that is a great trade of for pve. as far as pvp is concerned, isn't it a buff really? do you know what I can do with diversion now?
Axel Zinfandel
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Originally Posted by jazilla
with 15 in FC i can get meteor shower to recharge 45% faster. I think that is a great trade of for pve. as far as pvp is concerned, isn't it a buff really? do you know what I can do with diversion now?
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MithranArkanere
Hold your horses, the change is not done yet.
Wait for the change, and make your pointless requests then.
Even with that huge energy pool, elementalists are still better being elementalists.
Maybe it would be better to change Ether renewal so it doesn't work with maintained enchantments, or only with elementalist enchantments, but Energy Storage is perfectly fine. Elementalists have the highest number of 25 energy spells.
Wait for the change, and make your pointless requests then.
Even with that huge energy pool, elementalists are still better being elementalists.
Maybe it would be better to change Ether renewal so it doesn't work with maintained enchantments, or only with elementalist enchantments, but Energy Storage is perfectly fine. Elementalists have the highest number of 25 energy spells.
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by Chthon
Something like this was suggested repeatedly as an alternative to the timer, and a-net still went with the stupid timer.
Really though, secondary abuse by necros is largely a myth. Any class with 4 pips of regen and a modicum of e-management can abuse Resto. What other sorts of N/X do you often see in place of plain X? |
Chthon
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
Necros have far more than a "modicum" of e-management.
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Midnight Sands
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Originally Posted by Chthon
You missed my point. My point is that you do not need any more than a modicum of e-management to be able to abuse Resto. Carinae was able to do it with mesmers. You could probably do it with rits now that SoS+Spirit Siphon are buffed. I'd bet monks could manage with Selfless Spirit+AoS (though I'm not sure that they'd ever have a reason to prefer Resto to Healing+DF).So, what does all that energy from SR, above and beyond what you need to spam Resto skills, get you? Nothing. Like I said before, energy has a stairstep utility function, not a linear one. If you're looking at a backliner role, once you have enough energy to spam Resto, any more energy than that is useless until you get enough to spam bigprot, and then again useless until you get enough to maintain ProtBond. Yes, SR gives more energy than other options between the first and second stairsteps, but you have nothing worthwhile to do with that energy.
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Etheir way, not saying SR should be nerfed and ES isnt really that amazing, high energy bar =/ good emanagement, and tbh i think its pointless to base an argument on a change to an attribute that may or may not happen at a date not mentioned which are still subject to be changed, which from the OP's post seems to be what this thread is about.
Winterclaw
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
Hold your horses, the change is not done yet.
Wait for the change, and make your pointless requests then. Even with that huge energy pool, elementalists are still better being elementalists. Maybe it would be better to change Ether renewal so it doesn't work with maintained enchantments, or only with elementalist enchantments, but Energy Storage is perfectly fine. Elementalists have the highest number of 25 energy spells. |
While I'm thinking about it, assassins promise probably needs to be moved to critical strikes to keep it from being abused by other classes.
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
While I'm thinking about it, assassins promise probably needs to be moved to critical strikes to keep it from being abused by other classes.
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Magragoc
The problem is, is that moving skill "X" to its professions Primary Attribute is the laziest "balance" possible. GW is supposed to allow much mixing of skills from your primary and secondary. All professions have skills that are used better by / supposed to be use by secondaries.
In the case of Assassin's Promise ...'Sins already have enough toys that they don't share. It's stupidly powerful, but also forms the backbone of some professions most viable builds.
In the case of Assassin's Promise ...'Sins already have enough toys that they don't share. It's stupidly powerful, but also forms the backbone of some professions most viable builds.
The Drunkard
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
What about ER infusers? That's probably a better use for an el in HM than trying to deal damage because an el trying to deal damage in HM sucks.
While I'm thinking about it, assassins promise probably needs to be moved to critical strikes to keep it from being abused by other classes. |
/notsigned
dancing gnome
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Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade
Again, it's not like N/Rt is a problem.
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Necromancers are in the territory of ritualists and elementalists are in the territory of monks. The original point was the primary attributes of these professions allow them to perform ritualist roles better than ritualists.
He's just asking them to bring in line necromancers and elementalists the same way there are bringing mesmers in line with their recent buffs.
Seems fair to me.