Why the hell would you bot in pve? Explain this to me.

Huh.

What demographic would I be trolling, exactly?

The Botters? Anet did a better job of that than I could ever possibly hope to do.

See, I respect that. I respect you.

You don't find PVP enjoyable, so you don't do it.

You don't try to bot. You don't try to buy someone's rank. You just don't do it.

That's exactly what I would do.

I would imagine this would make someone bot in PvE...

The problem is that the "Mother Title" in gw includes these joke titles.
I've always, always felt GWAMM/Big Deal should have never included them. This title should have been a meta strictly for things that are achievements / progression based. VQing, Protectors, exploration. Even rep titles.

But GWAMM is important to maxing the HoM and player's Ranks in GWAMM will likely transfer to GW2 in some way, so players need to farm the bullshit titles that are meaningless to skill in this game.

Go figure.

I agree whole heartedly with this and everything you said.

And for the same reasons I posted above, I knew I would never bother with GWAMM because I can't be bothered to sit there clicking booze every 5 minutes or afking 9rings. That's not what I'm about. I don't find that fun. And, I don't find it fair, either.

This is just a general and outdated problem with MMO's in general, though. It's hard to balance making certain achievements difficult to obtain without making them boring / annoying. Money sinks and grinds are the only way MMO's have figured can be used in order to make players 'earn' things, and unfortunately these will always lead to botting / gold farming. Grinding titles in GW, buying gold for epic flying in WoW, etc. etc.

This is why I am looking forward to the Karma system in GW2. It may not completely eradicate the problem but it's a huge step in the right direction. Earning Karma will come naturally with playing the game, and playing in right, and difficult to bull shit through.

Hopefully, anyway.

Thanks for the detailed reply and discussion, Kokoninja.

Here's a couple more cents from me on the issue of titles.

Personally, I think that guild wars, being a non-subscription based game, has absolutely no need for time sinks or money sinks.

If you're done with the game, you're done with the game. Either move on to pvp, or go do something else until more content/expansion packs comes in.

I truly believe that Anet's original intention with these titles are just distractions and falls into the category of "If you get them, you get them. Most people won't".

Then, the player base made it much more important (or as far as I know, the pvp base did, but I'd imagine the same thing happened in pve) and pressured Anet to make them more substantial, which led to further inflation of their importance.

And now, things are spiraled completely out of control.

Why do PvP'ers pay real money for ranked accounts or bot PvP?

The answer to that question is largely the same as the answer to your question above it.

And just to address the various comments you've made about the Sweet tooth title, eating candy etc... the Sweet tooth title (and the Party Animal title) unlike the Drunkard title aren't big grindy titles, they're relatively quick titles once you obtain sufficient sweets (or party items), you merely click through your stacks of consumable items and voila, you have a maxed (worthless) money title. At 100 gold per sweet tooth point it only cost you 1 million gold, give or take, so it's not really expensive either.

The Drunkard title on the other hand can be quite time consuming if you want to sit around drinking... 10,000 minutes

I've been playing since E3 and I didn't really know how pervasive this problem was. I count myself as very naive about how many people were botting in PVE just to get armors and weapons with rare skins.

I know I'm a small fry with only 1k plat, 9 characters and some high-end armors on a few of those chars. I do have a rare bow which dropped with unconditional stats back in the drake farming days. Other than that I've been content to just get what I need for PVE and enjoy some RA from time to time.

I'm actually happy that most of these cheats are gone because it levels the playing field again. I'm not sure I'll ever go after any of the titles that people botted to achieve. It seems like a waste of time to do it manually and also to do it with a bot.

I only hope for GW2 that Anet recognizes that the human interaction part of the game is what attracted many of us early players. Many current titles seem geared toward an isolated play style.

I agree, I think titles were originally supposed to be an e-peen thing, which is fine for me. A lot of players could care less what others think, we're probably two such players, haha.

But the problem with PvP as you said is that people wanted you to show your rank before taking you on a pug. To some extent, this is understandable, although it was a huge disadvantage to new players trying to get in.

That transitioned over with Nightfall and your rep ranks affecting skills. It escalated in EotN. Groups wouldn't bring others on HM pugs or VQ's unless players could provide a certain rank of whatever track to 'prove' themselves.

But the only thing it was proving was how much time they sank into farming points. It had little to do with skill. You can blast through the games without being above rank 5 or 6 of this or that.

Time =/= skill, but title grinding gives the illusion that it does.

OMFGASODJASODAOSJD!!!! XD go play random arenas elite pvp player :P

I agree with almost all your statements, titles should have always been for vanity and the vague GW2 carrot is just pressuring people into getting them.

The difference here is in GW1 Drunkard is simply a title. The benefit it confers onto players is it counts towards GWAMM. Who knows what it will be in GW2 (aside from simply being a vanity item). If it's just "GW1 Drunkard title" I'm fine with not having it. If it's "Kilroy's Everlasting Magical Keg of Awesomeness: Double click to summon 3 drunk dwarven musicians which dance and sing and make pretty fireworks," that sounds like something that's kind of cool and I'd want it. Even if it didn't make me do more damage or run faster, it's kind of entertaining and flashy. If it's a special drunk dance I'd still want it.

I disagree the rep titles are skill based. Anyone can farm raptors until their computer overheats from boredom. That's how you max Asura faction. The faction titles should have been like the Master of the North. Vanquish all areas in asuran territories, do all asuran quests and complete all dungeons in asuran terriroty in HM. Once you've done that you have max asuran title. Instead the game wants you to grind raptors until you hate yourself for playing such a boring game (when the game isn't boring, but the things you are given titles for are).

The GW2 Karma systems sound a lot like an old grind we already have in GW. Think of the War in Kryta. Change the word "War Supplies" into "Karma". Now think of how many times you'll need to escort Courier Falken or complete the wanted bounties to get enough "Karma" to buy 10 Medals of Honor which can be traded for unique goods.

Grind titles should have never been introduced, they were just bad game design to trick players into thinking the game had more content than it did (and effectively funnelled players from doing things they enjoyed and were fun, into doing things that they didn't enjoy and weren't fun because they were the most effective way to reach the ridiculously high title grind goal). HoM rewards for titles was where titles went from being a harmless bad idea, to being a gaping wound on the game which begs people to either accept they won't have them, or bot for them.

Some titles were added for things players were already doing. Things like allegiance faction titles. The difference is, before players would simply play Aspenwood or Alliance Battles for the fun of it and stop when they didn't want to play any more,there was no reason to. Now that there was a title to get losing became a bigger punishment, it slowed down your progression towards that title. Playing for that extra match or two was tempting even when you weren't enjoying it any more because it increased your title. Pretty soon you are playing matches you no longer enjoy because you care about winning and thus brought a build you don't enjoy because it's the optimum build and you just want to drag that little faction bar further along.

If the "reward" turns out to be something shitty like a lame emote or a title I will LOL. I can't see them adding something that will give you a gameplay advantage. GW has always been promoted on the premise of it being skill based, not grind based, so any kind of "benefit" in GW2 will probably be something useless and purely cosmetic. Therefore I don't give a rats ass about HoM, nor do I feel any compulsion to bot for it.

So a couple of weeks ago I was killing shit in Drakkar Lake, and a friend PMed me saying "what are you doing?" I said, "I'm farming Norn points, this is so boring and I hate it." So she said, "if it's boring then..stop doing it?" And you know what? She was right. If something in the game gets so tedious that it becomes a chore, the best thing to do would be to STOP. Maybe go outside, get some sunlight and fresh air. There's a world outside your house ffs. <---big time hypocrisy on my part but the truth hurts doesnt it

Derp.


You don't watch. You afk, come back in 12-24 hours and count your money.

The majority of titles in GW are grind based, not skill based. If you can get a single 5 win streak in RA you have the ability to max that title. If you can kill a single mob in HM in any of the faction areas, you can max those titles. If you have 10,000 minutes of alcohol, you can max that title. The difference is whether your priorities allow you to persist with boring gameplay objectives long enough to get them while ignoring that you could be playing other game or god forbid interacting with real people. That's why players bot.

So, in your opinion, do you think it was mainly PvP players trying to fill their HoM?

I didn't really know those things about PvP. I started after NF but before EotN. I dabbled a little in PvP, even won a few matches in HA but was so far behind the curve (and have a tempermental ISP) so I never really got into it.

Are you aware that you are richer than pretty much everyone in this thread, including person on ecto-stack-overload screenshot?

(If i had dozen armbrace stacks, i'd make you serious offer ...)

I don't think OP grasps how rich some players got from botting farms.

Isn't the OP kinda asking, why people PvP? basically the botters want the reward of PvP without spending the time, and the fun you would have in the campaigns

They only got rich if they sold the gold and ectos they farmed for real money. If not, those ectos and gold are worth nothing.

I think the real question is, "Why do they want the rewards if they find the game too boring to actually achieve them?"

Getting trolled...
Why get the higher paying job rather than the lowbie, long hours one?
Why do people take diet pills/surgery rather than make a lifestyle change?
Why didnt you draw a conclusion before making such a thread?

Simple. People think of the end rather than the means. Instead of doing the footwork(which may be quite boring, in the case of GW titles) they use the most efficient, hands off method. Sure, maybe you dont bother with design decisions you dont particularly like, but thats not the problem. Lame design that leads to some sort of reward means people will come up with equally lame means to get around them, while they partake in other parts they enjoy. I would be all for it if it didnt screw the game economy/PVP matchups. Just like getting Legendary Survivor. Why take weeks slowly creeping around, trying to avoid K.Os and lagspikes(potentially losing days of work down the line to such mishaps) when you can in half a day or better get it, also making time lost negligible in the case of said mishaps. Use logic, man. Dont swim through the creek. Jump over that SOB.

I have 21 maxed titles and several close to max, but I don't "grind" at them. I also don't use bots to farm the gold for the ones that require items. The titles will be completed when it happens.

Luxon - I do some JQ or AB off and on; vanquish with friends because it is fun group activity. Got the Kurzick one maxed last year.
Sweet Tooth - I'm at 8,190 as of today and just add to it with sweets and sweet buffs as I use them. Drunkard - not interested
EoTN - maxed all the rep titles by playing and vanquishing. No raptor or vaettir farming.

The game is supposed to be FUN. When its not fun, why play?

The HoM rewards will not be super armor or uber weapons, nothing useful. Just honorary items.

There are a lot of fun things in the game that to enjoy them while maintaining efficiency, you're driven to grind out title ranks. Can you do them without doing so? Sure, but when these titles directly alter your build's efficiency, it becomes almost a necessity. There are many things I'd like to do with a few of my younger chars, but having to drag through the entire Prophecies storyline again is not something that I'd consider fun.

Irrelavent.

This is not a job.

This is A VIDEO GAME.

some ppl are bored and bot just to get caught, others are maxing titles with no effort and one part is botting so it could sell the loot and earn some rl cash, and the biggest idiots are ones that just play the game and waste their life on it...

Where else would you use them?
...
no but you must never play this game, rofl

Irrelevant.

Tangible or not, people want the reward as quickly and as efficiently as possible. In very few instances could you farm as well let alone as efficiently as a bot who doesn't stop to piss.

How other people gain enjoyment in life doesn't have to be explained to you. Video game or not.

when people start playing games for reasons other than to actually enjoy playing the game, i think theres something wrong. well aside from the fact there are now ways to earn real life money through video games, but thats a different matter.

You're assuming that they aren't using a bot to skip portions of the game that most find less than enjoyable (title grinds). In this scenario, they're using bots to skip to the parts of the game they enjoy.

titles are not necessary

Botting in pve works similarly, getting ahead without doing any work, money and titles.

It's obvious to me that this isn't what the designers intended. If it were, then these portions would not have been programmed into the story/game. Using third party applications to circumvent the original game ... well, that's the problem regardless of reason.

/shrug

Because botting in PvE is most profitable. PvE you can set a bot to do something for hours on end without you even giving the client a glance. This means stacks of gold for little to no work.

money. its all about the money. why spend 5hrs farming and then having to go to sleep and make no money while your sleeping? I'll share an example.

ok i make roughly 10 ecto an hour farming war supplies adn turning them into gifts and selling. Now(this is where a botter would come in in my shoes) lets say ,theoretically, i had to go to sleep @ 10pm and didnt wake up till 7am. That'd 90e you could've gotten while your sleeping. But,since your sleep obiously you cant play a video game(if you can good for you but you are in the minority ;D). So, people turn to bots. Now, when i sleep i dont have to miss on that 90e. When im @school/work i dont have to miss that money i could've been making.
It's simply almost always about the money.(ppl do it for titles too but in my example its money ;p)

you said money as if you sold it for "MONEY" cos if you sold it for game gold you said gold, wouldn't you? so why you say Money instead of gold?

No, you're right. That's kind of why I separated it by saying "even rep titles". It wasn't skill based, but, it was something that for the most part naturally progressed with you as you made your way through the game and did other things like VQing. The problem, as you say, is that you max out at how much you can gain from just doing your thing. Eventually you do need to branch into the grind to max it out. That part sucks.

Aha. See I haven't done any WIK stuff yet. I was getting started with the Gwen/Thackeray melodrama and quit halfway through their whining.

This sounds so much less appealing to me now...

Agreed. It's the proverbial hamster wheel all games have. First it was needing titles to progress through content. Then it was needing them to make skills better, etc.

And I don't think those players realized how useless all that gold really is in the end.

Maybe it's just me?
I have 800plt sitting around collecting dust cause I really just don't know what to do with it.

Actually, it's a quote from Frisky Dingo, which was a cartoon on Adult Swim (the same guys who recently made Archer, both of which are amazing).

The quote is: “It’s like finding out Jesus knew karate! Can you imagine? Karate Jesus?”

I harbor no disrespect for any religion or faith-practice, and you have to admit.....it would have been pretty awesome if Jesus had known karate. I imagine the book of Revelation would contain a lot more ninja-demon warriors and the Shepherd of Hermas would have been interesting (for a change).


EDIT: Btw, the people suggesting I might be fundie since I'm from Texas are sorely mistaken. I've been accused of postmodernist liberalism more times than I'd care to mention

They surely help when they directly affect a skill's ability.

It would be awesome indeed.

I suspect most people bot because they are lazy

Haha. Yeah, I've had offers before for it and never really entertained the idea of selling it. It's nothing special really except for the unconditional stat. It's not full damage, has a vanilla skin and the req is something retarded.

I guess I'm sentimentally attached to it because it was from very early on in the game when l really enjoyed playing with my friends/guildmates.

OT: Did you know that some Jehovah’s Witnesses carried similar notes forbiding anyone attempting to save their life with transfusion or transplants? It actually led to some deaths...

*Sigh* the argument that still does nothing. Titles in the game happen to unlock/enhance aspects of gameplay. You don't need titles to play, but then again, you don't need to play a game with features you disagree with. See what I did?

@snaek
You use the bots to skip portions that you don't have fun with, so you can get to the ones you do have fun with. Unless of course your selling items for cash.