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Originally Posted by ajc2123
That's the assassin class dude. It either does that or dies. Only way to fix is a complete re-haul or deletion of the class.
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Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs
Reverend Dr
dusanyu
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
And Dev-hammer qlocking isn't easy?
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Terrible Surgeon
Yeah i could cry about monks spamming heals i guess. i mean i see a lot of shitter monks spamming heals like they have 1000 energy then they hit bonettis defense right b4 a warrior murders them. Point being, we all have a bitch, i think mesmers are OP and i think Bsurge eles are brainless RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs. ADAPT AND GET OVER 2 SKILLS THAT U DISLIKE!!! I mean really, compared to other things, sins are far less broken.
Morphy
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Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon
Yeah i could cry about monks spamming heals i guess. i mean i see a lot of shitter monks spamming heals like they have 1000 energy then they hit bonettis defense right b4 a warrior murders them. Point being, we all have a bitch, i think mesmers are OP and i think Bsurge eles are brainless RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs. ADAPT AND GET OVER 2 SKILLS THAT U DISLIKE!!! I mean really, compared to other things, sins are far less broken.
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Now, before you start cheering, there is a fundamental difference between these two things: Monk builds will generally be used in a skillful way. People will always find ways to simplify proper builds so that even they can use it. If any of those simplifications become too powerful, actions should be taken. Generally, though, this is not needed. Gimmicks such as FF/JS builds, however, are supposed to be spammed. There are no proper builds that come from those skills.
This is why FF/JS is broken and Monk skills are not. Blinding Surge and some Mesmer builds (such as the extremely gay VoR build) are in the same boat and should get the same treatment: kill, then rework.
Terrible Surgeon
Yeah, i guess i can see your point when i start thinking of other skills like wastrels worry. That is a spam skill that causes other people to spam ...xD
Morphy
I actually have a name for this kind of stuff.
Explicit gimmickry: Skills such as JS and FF which are so lame that their only purpose is to be used in gimmicks.
Implicit gimmickry: Skills that require skill to play that are used in an improper way, simplifying gameplay for the user at the cost of effectiveness.
Implicit gimmickry will always happen because people will always find ways to commit it. It's unavoidable.
Explicit gimmickry can be avoided because the skills that are used for it can be reworked. After all, the skills don't have a proper usage anyway.
Explicit gimmickry: Skills such as JS and FF which are so lame that their only purpose is to be used in gimmicks.
Implicit gimmickry: Skills that require skill to play that are used in an improper way, simplifying gameplay for the user at the cost of effectiveness.
Implicit gimmickry will always happen because people will always find ways to commit it. It's unavoidable.
Explicit gimmickry can be avoided because the skills that are used for it can be reworked. After all, the skills don't have a proper usage anyway.
Skyy High
There are spam skills in every profession though. Why is it such a big deal that a sin can make a weak, bad, spammy build, when you can do the same damn thing with a warrior, derv, or indeed any other physical class? Again, the only reason that there is ever any reason to complain about these skills is if they do an undue amount of damage/disruption/protection/whatever for the effort (or lack thereof) put into the build. Beyond that, let bad players have their bad builds.
Not every skill is designed with high-end PvP in mind, remember that. In fact, I'm just going to copy-paste a post I made on GWO on a topic about "well designed" skills:
In conclusion: if it's not affecting the meta in any significant way, stop raging about it. It's akin to yelling at an 8 year old for playing Pokemon when there are deeper RPGs available.
Not every skill is designed with high-end PvP in mind, remember that. In fact, I'm just going to copy-paste a post I made on GWO on a topic about "well designed" skills:
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I personally disagree with the designation of proactive skills that require thought as "well designed". Look at MtG. There are plenty of cards in every set that are inefficient, cumbersome, weird, or just plain not tournament caliber; the majority of new cards are never included in a serious tournament deck, in fact. That does not mean that these cards are not well designed, just that they are not designed with efficiency and tournament play in mind. They are perfectly well designed, however, from a lore perspective (Vampiric Bite), or from the point of view of a causal player having fun with oddball cards (Illusionary Weaponry), or from the point of view of a player who enjoys taking ridiculous looking cards and making a viable combo out of them (Signet of Illusions), or simply from the point of view of a player who likes to see big numbers and flashy effects in combat, even if it's inefficient (Meteor Shower). These are not just valid ways to design a card, they are equally valid as designing a card for tournament play. So, while I agree with the spirit of this thread, I really don't agree with labeling these cards the "best designed" cards in GW. Meteor Shower is damn fun to cast on a group of foes, and if the goal of design isn't to create a fun environment to play in, I don't know what is. |
Morphy
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
There are spam skills in every profession though. Why is it such a big deal that a sin can make a weak, bad, spammy build, when you can do the same damn thing with a warrior, derv, or indeed any other physical class? Again, the only reason that there is ever any reason to complain about these skills is if they do an undue amount of damage/disruption/protection/whatever for the effort (or lack thereof) put into the build. Beyond that, let bad players have their bad builds.
Not every skill is designed with high-end PvP in mind, remember that. In fact, I'm just going to copy-paste a post I made on GWO on a topic about "well designed" skills: In conclusion: if it's not affecting the meta in any significant way, stop raging about it. It's akin to yelling at an 8 year old for playing Pokemon when there are deeper RPGs available. |
Fahhhh
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Originally Posted by Morphy
/shrug, maybe I got dragged into Perfect Balance a bit too much. From a balance perspective, these skills are obviously flawed but I see where you're coming from. Minor flaw in your Pokemon analogy, though: the 8 year old doesn't force you to play along, facing JS/FF in PvP does.
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This game has never been perfectly balanced and never will be. To hope it will be is kinda silly really. And I stand by the fact that the skills are not OP or even that commonly run anymore, I'm fairly sure at least. If you have a problem with the mechanic behind them the solutions pretty simple: don't use those skills.
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Fahhhh
Well spamming has its consequences just as any other strategy does. Spamming is easy to interrupt/Divert/predict.
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That said I don't think these skills warrant immediate attention, they're really not that powerful.
HigherMinion
Right... The amount of times I laid Psychic Distraction against Jagged is priceless; most sins are shutdown apart from their autoattacks.... People must be really bad if they can't beat an assassin. And to say it's not balanced it really, really stupid. You're basically asking for a class that Anet did NOT create.
Vlad S
I'm not sure if you have noticed, but anet has been killing the assassin builds for a long time already.
If they nerfed fox fangs and jagged strike...
Well, they just killed a lot of assassins and they basically made the small r/a population extinct.
If they nerfed fox fangs and jagged strike...
Well, they just killed a lot of assassins and they basically made the small r/a population extinct.
Luminarus
I have to admit, they arent that bad. A decent monk can survive them easy enough, its wen you face that and like an edenial mesmer or a hex pressure necro that the damage reaches the point if being detrimental. But its no worse then a good warrior, or like a MB ele.
Btw, I luv shield bashing jagged!
Btw, I luv shield bashing jagged!
headlesshobbs
I personally prefer the current build compared to other skills recovering 8sec or more plus requirements... Sounds like you really want to take the fun out of my game.
edit: Gee Morphy, are you the only one who's gonna be dead set on killing these builds? It sure looks that way.
edit: Gee Morphy, are you the only one who's gonna be dead set on killing these builds? It sure looks that way.
Shayne Hawke
Thread purged. Let's keep it friendly.
Morphy
In the light of the recent metagame developments, I believe this topic is again relevant. As expected, the builds are featured in an Sway set-up: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_R/A_Sway. For the love of meow, nerf all aspects of this horrible gimmick build, that includes the Primary attribute independency of Ritualist heals (making it ideal for secondary abuse), the spirits that don't affect Weapon Spells and other Ritualist skills and the ridiculously mindless spam-on-recharge combo.
Lanier
kinda off topic from from a pve standpoint, i would like to see the 1/2 second removed to balance fox fangs out with wild strke better. Nothing to do with HA gimmicks i know but figured i would mention my opinion.
Morphy
Tbh, Wild Strike and Golden Fang strikes can potentially be as much of a problem as JS/FF, the whole pressure Assassin idea is just mindless spam :/.
headlesshobbs
I just see it as a fun build for getting duals going, how is that such a problem?
Morphy
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Originally Posted by headlesshobbs
I just see it as a fun build for getting duals going, how is that such a problem?
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headlesshobbs
Willing to spoil other people's fun.... oh wow.
Morphy
Yes. That's exactly the effect shit builds like these have on PvP.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by Morphy
It's a mindless build that contradicts the very core of Guild Wars fundamentals, skill over skills. In other words, it's a broken piece of shit that won't ever be balanced and is causing unnecessary problems. "Fun" seems to be an excuse that many people use for abysmal skills such as these, much the same for items in Super Smash Bros. I honestly don't understand how mindless builds like these can be considered fun and I understand even less why you're so egoistic that you're willing to spoil other people's fun because you want to keep this shit in the game so badly. Playing with or against this build is boring and requires not a single piece of thought.
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Morphy
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Two simple dagger attacks cannot be considered OP OR mindless. You have to consider the rest of the build and consider the melee counters.
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I won't even start with "Overpoweredness" of these skills as that has no relevance whatsoever to balance (yes, you hear me right). Power is only relevant when proving what effect a skill has on the game, at which point more solid theories of balance take over. These skills are mindless as is every build that features them. That makes them broken. Regardless of how effective they are (in this case effective enough to be the FotM gimmick), they will NEVER be balanced.
The Josip
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Originally Posted by Morphy
You aren't serious are you?
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jazilla
vor much? empathy much? ineptitude much? blurred vision+gust+glyph of immolation+steam much? want me to go on much? this is pointless. sins are one of the easiest classes to take down if you want to in guild wars. if you hate it so much or think everyone is using it, then just play counter to it in RA lolz. it's pretty simple.
headlesshobbs
If you really want to complain about OP sins, you should be looking at the knockdown-spike, unless you have some type of block stance handy.
Sirius Bsns
It's only OPed if you blatently bring nothing to counter them. Also, S.Bash, Empathy and Diversion + Blind completely destroy assassins (especially those who're bad at the game and using them).
Morphy
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Originally Posted by jazilla
vor much? empathy much?
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| ineptitude much? blurred vision+gust+glyph of immolation+steam much? |
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| want me to go on much? |
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| this is pointless. sins are one of the easiest classes to take down if you want to in guild wars. |
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| if you hate it so much or think everyone is using it, then just play counter to it in RA lolz. it's pretty simple. |
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Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns
It's only OPed if you blatently bring nothing to counter them.
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| Also, S.Bash, Empathy and Diversion + Blind completely destroy assassins (especially those who're bad at the game and using them). |
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Originally Posted by The Josip
He's serious. He doesn't actually think these skills are balanced - he knows they are blatantly overpowered just like Ether Renewal and physical damage in general - it's just that he likes it that way and will not support any nerf and balance suggestion.
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To all of you, come on. Is that the best you can throw at me? Even if you find a valid, balanced counter in the meta, you still need to proof that it makes the builds any harder to play, which none of you even TRIED to prove so far.
system.fan
I don't understand why some ppl always want skills to get nerfed...
You can't just nerf any skill that is too strong....
In the End every skill would be crap or even classes would be completely useless....
Or it would end in RA looking like "Dodgeball" from New-Year-Event xD.... All Skills do 50 dmg and people just try to prevent dmg with running away. As if that shit isnt boring =)
If Anet nerfs one skill they buff another... And guess what... 1 day later people start crying about new "overpowered" skill.... It's like a vicious circle lol
You can't expect GW to be perfect balanced... it never was and it never will be.
If you can't live with that in PvP... well go play PvE or another game. Nobody is telling you to play GW pvp :P
But well... many ppl that play "lame" builds like that are idiots so they are easy to pwn too... Go Hex and Coverhex and they fail within a minute.
so far...
system.fan
You can't just nerf any skill that is too strong....
In the End every skill would be crap or even classes would be completely useless....
Or it would end in RA looking like "Dodgeball" from New-Year-Event xD.... All Skills do 50 dmg and people just try to prevent dmg with running away. As if that shit isnt boring =)
If Anet nerfs one skill they buff another... And guess what... 1 day later people start crying about new "overpowered" skill.... It's like a vicious circle lol
You can't expect GW to be perfect balanced... it never was and it never will be.
If you can't live with that in PvP... well go play PvE or another game. Nobody is telling you to play GW pvp :P
But well... many ppl that play "lame" builds like that are idiots so they are easy to pwn too... Go Hex and Coverhex and they fail within a minute.
so far...
system.fan
Rikimaru
Everyone seems to be missing the point here; he isn't saying they're overpowered, I believe he's saying they're shallow and boring to play. And I agree.
I would love to be able to use something else instead, but there aren't many good alternatives; the other lead/offhands are all very gimmicky, requiring things like hexes or movement. You need fairly specific builds to get any use out of them, with very little versatility.
Jagged Strike in particular is the only basic, usable anytime lead.
In PvP, you can't even make effective use of the incredibly low cooldown on these without wasting slots on multiple dual-attacks.
I would greatly prefer them to have cooldowns of 4 or so seconds, with increased/added +damage.
I really think that all dagger skills in general need a re-balancing pass, though.
I would love to be able to use something else instead, but there aren't many good alternatives; the other lead/offhands are all very gimmicky, requiring things like hexes or movement. You need fairly specific builds to get any use out of them, with very little versatility.
Jagged Strike in particular is the only basic, usable anytime lead.
In PvP, you can't even make effective use of the incredibly low cooldown on these without wasting slots on multiple dual-attacks.
I would greatly prefer them to have cooldowns of 4 or so seconds, with increased/added +damage.
I really think that all dagger skills in general need a re-balancing pass, though.
Reverend Dr
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Originally Posted by jazilla
vor much? empathy much? ineptitude much? blurred vision+gust+glyph of immolation+steam much? want me to go on much? this is pointless. sins are one of the easiest classes to take down if you want to in guild wars. if you hate it so much or think everyone is using it, then just play counter to it in RA lolz. it's pretty simple.
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Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns
It's only OPed if you blatently bring nothing to counter them. Also, S.Bash, Empathy and Diversion + Blind completely destroy assassins (especially those who're bad at the game and using them).
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You just completely missed the point. Yes Build Wars can beat it. The only thing Build Wars couldn't beat was the old GWFC FoC spike. Build Wars also is only relevant in GvG tournaments.
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Originally Posted by system.fan
I don't understand why some ppl always want skills to get nerfed...
You can't just nerf any skill that is too strong.... |
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| Join Date: Aug 2008 |
The most important thing is to realize that these skills produce too effective play for the amount of effort put in. Its a "fun" bar because its "easy" and "gets results." The point that so many are ignoring is: those two should never go together. Bars that are easy should cap out in effectiveness well below bars that are not as easy. This doesn't create problems at the top of competitive play, but at all the levels below that (a lot more people play here than at the top) things just turn into a terrible mesh of bad builds that are just not fun to play against. And then that whole section of players will thin out, and it did thin out.
lemming
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Originally Posted by Rikimaru
Everyone seems to be missing the point here; he isn't saying they're overpowered, I believe he's saying they're shallow and boring to play. And I agree.
I would love to be able to use something else instead, but there aren't many good alternatives; the other lead/offhands are all very gimmicky, requiring things like hexes or movement. You need fairly specific builds to get any use out of them, with very little versatility. Jagged Strike in particular is the only basic, usable anytime lead. In PvP, you can't even make effective use of the incredibly low cooldown on these without wasting slots on multiple dual-attacks. I would greatly prefer them to have cooldowns of 4 or so seconds, with increased/added +damage. I really think that all dagger skills in general need a re-balancing pass, though. |
system.fan
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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
I shouldn't expect you to understand the Nightfall powercreep.
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I can understand that many ppl are pissed cause others can use easy builds and win more often with them than others with builds that need a brain...
But just nerf any strong skill isnt the answer....
@Rikimaru:
Well if the point rly is that they are boring to play... nobody forces him/you to play that build. there are a lot of other sin skills/builds =)
Morphy
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I can understand that many ppl are pissed cause others can use easy builds and win more often with them than others with builds that need a brain... But just nerf any strong skill isnt the answer.... |
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@Rikimaru: Well if the point rly is that they are boring to play... nobody forces him/you to play that build. there are a lot of other sin skills/builds =) |
Desert Rose
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Originally Posted by system.fan
But just nerf any strong skill isnt the answer....
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Nobody here wants to nerf a skill just because it is strong. We don't want to have skills that are strong AND mindless, and such skills should either be corrected by a nerf so they're no longer strong or a functional change to make them no longer mindless.
HigherMinion
Anet need no-brain skills to keep bad players interested in the game. Ideally, they need to improve AI in PvE to make tank and spank useless; then the fun can begin. PvP is balanced at the moment. don't need a monk to win at the moment.
maxxfury
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Anet need no-brain skills to keep bad players interested in the game. Ideally, they need to improve AI in PvE to make tank and spank useless; then the fun can begin. .
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Tho i think Anet should have learnt their lesson with 1/2 attacks skills with bow attacks and scythe attacks...but oh well.. too much ciompression lets any shi......er spike..
Pve, who cares while we have AP, er, super tanks ect...
shishkabibble
This entire thread is pointless. Honestly. Think of what an assassin is. It's a 12345678 type of class. Use these skills in a row to kill your enemy fast, unless they counter. If they counter and kill your chain, you will most likely be helpless. It's what the assassin is. Now, when you talk about this class not being congruent with the guild wars philosophy, then I agree. But that's about the whole class, not these two skills. I can't believe this thread has dragged on for so long with people saying the same thing over and over.
R_Frost
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Originally Posted by Morphy
In the light of the recent metagame developments, I believe this topic is again relevant. As expected, the builds are featured in an Sway set-up: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_R/A_Sway. For the love of meow, nerf all aspects of this horrible gimmick build, that includes the Primary attribute independency of Ritualist heals (making it ideal for secondary abuse), the spirits that don't affect Weapon Spells and other Ritualist skills and the ridiculously mindless spam-on-recharge combo.
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