MM-ories - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Countess Marie

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

Theatre Debauchery

N/R

08 Jun 2010 at 07:42 - 1

I can understand why you might want to move this to the Necro section, and I'm not going to plead with you, but if you would read this before you moved it to make sure you want to.

I was thinking a lot about Minion Mastery and Death Magic lately (and just read on a forum where people were talking about MM.) Not the state of it recently, but back near release. I didn't get the game in April, I got it in the middle of July, so I can't say I was there at the beginning.

But, when was the first time you guys really respected Death Magic in high-level content?

For me, I was always trying to figure out how to make it work. I remember the first day I heard about v-sac and I was like WHAT?! The guy was like "Yeah, dude, you can cap it from vereta in the villainy quest ( lol ). +10 regen?!

But I never thought it got any respect by the masses until Sorrows Furnace. I'm not going to claim to be the first MM in SF, but the whole dwarf area of the game was a MM playpen because they didn't hit that hard or do much AoE. I remember being like oooh yeah, time to shine. And everyone wanted necs to run SS or worse, BIP. I was like... MM LFG?? And they'd be like... stfunub. "We'd rather bring another nuker!" Of course, the best time for Necros was SF (gear exploit and all) because every group wanted two (SS and MM.)

Am I seeing this differently than other people? I admit I was a noob at first. And I even got to SF late (a day or two.) But when I got there nobody was running MM. And I hadn't seen MM really take off in other spots (maybe in places like THK or Thirsty River.)

And the spite from watching everyone turn into Necro lovers overnight gave me no qualms about buying every Bortak item I could find and selling it for 100k+ ectos :P

-CM

Pleikki

WTB q8 15^50 Weapons!

Join Date: Nov 2006

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

08 Jun 2010 at 08:02 - 2

Well I loved it in 2005 before it was nerfed, and well when remade my necro as my main in 2006 i used it as MM for almost year :d

By the nerf i mean when u used be able have dozens of minions and so on :d

Lodar Aric

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

Blackburn, UK

The League of Friends [LoF]

E/

08 Jun 2010 at 08:40 - 3

I remember Glyph of Renewal + Verata's Sacrifice was godly at the time. I ran a MM before SF was released, but they really took off when it did come out.

I wasn't happy with the minion cap at the time but I can see now why they had to change it.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

08 Jun 2010 at 08:43 - 4

MM was always overpowered and still is.

Check how many people use MM heroes and how many use mesmer heroes. Exactly.

Luminarus

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2007

Sydney, Australia

Haze of Light [pure]

R/

08 Jun 2010 at 08:47 - 5

Atm minions can:

Tank, Body block, nuke, melee, easy respawn, trigger Pain Inverter, and live near indefinately.

Why would u run anything else?

Kumu Honua

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2008

08 Jun 2010 at 09:11 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

MM was always overpowered and still is.

Check how many people use MM heroes and how many use mesmer heroes. Exactly.

What about those who use both?

majoho

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Denmark

08 Jun 2010 at 09:42 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Atm minions can:

Tank, Body block, nuke, melee, easy respawn, trigger Pain Inverter, and live near indefinately.

Why would u run anything else?

Because the heroes does it better than I ever could

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

08 Jun 2010 at 10:09 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Because the heroes does it better than I ever could

Then you suck.

Let me give you a tip on how to be better than a hero Minion Bomber:
Learn to run Order of Undeath without lots of self-heals.

Scary

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Uhmmmm??

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

N/

08 Jun 2010 at 10:38 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

MM was always overpowered and still is.

Check how many people use MM heroes and how many use mesmer heroes. Exactly.

It is strong and usefull, not overpowerd

aspi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

eeew

N/Rt

08 Jun 2010 at 10:40 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

MM was always overpowered and still is.

Check how many people use MM heroes and how many use mesmer heroes. Exactly.

Maybe mesmers just suck? I don't care much about them, I also fail to see how a mesmer could ever replace a MM in a group. Unless it is in areas with no corpses. Even then I'd rather take a ranger or even a warrior before I think about bringing an annoying mesmer with me.

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

08 Jun 2010 at 10:42 - 11

I don't run MM because I rather watch someone play tennis. IE: it's boring, like knitting or something horrible.

But yeah the first time I respected MMing was in 2005 when I was a nabhat and trying to do Galarath, I'm sure you all remember that one. Our necro had like 20 minions out and I thought that was pretty awesome, but I don't think I ever utilized it like that. For all other death magic..eh I've always used it. But when I was able to put together a semi-decent non boring attack build with DM post NF, that's when I started primarily using my necro as a DM necro when I H/Hed.

Oh and the only way a mesmer wouldn't be underpowered when compared to a MM is if the MM part was taken out of the game or reduced to a Smiters Boon state which would upset people.

Fusylum

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Michigan

Reign of Judgement [RoJ]

08 Jun 2010 at 11:21 - 12

I try to use an MM everywhere

AlsPals

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Sellin hot stock tips for pro[fit]

Me/E

08 Jun 2010 at 11:24 - 13

Ah, classic MMs. Minion Factory PvP is fresh in my head....One necro sacs, rezmer, and keep raisin them POS till the clock was done. Then watch opponents spam chat with explitives when they are being squirted by dozens(I wanna say hundred easy) bone minions. Those were the days.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

08 Jun 2010 at 11:52 - 14

In old days necromancers were not understood at all.

My favorite one was "Yeah, right, put 12 into sr, 12 into healing. Now when your teammate dies, you will have energy to delay his friend's death by two seconds! Primary necormancer healing s.u.c.k.s., noob, just uninstall."

Oh, how funny it is now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Then you suck.

Let me give you a tip on how to be better than a hero Minion Bomber:
Learn to run Order of Undeath without lots of self-heals.

You are still going to operate under peak efficiency for human necromancer player (do not use death magic ...), but o well, that is ancient debate.

I just wonder how this would change if death nova was more like dwaynas sorrow: targeting-friendly aoe allowing to ehcnant all minions in one cast.

Dame Laureline

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2010

Childs of Amber

P/

08 Jun 2010 at 12:15 - 15

I highly dislike MM. It's like their dumb minions are taking all the fun to human players. As a necro I play blood magic. I'm unhappy lifestealing was nerfed, but i'ts still OK.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

08 Jun 2010 at 12:28 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

You are still going to operate under peak efficiency for human necromancer player (do not use death magic ...), but o well, that is ancient debate.

Yes, but that is not the point.

majoho

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Denmark

08 Jun 2010 at 12:46 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Then you suck.

Let me give you a tip on how to be better than a hero Minion Bomber:
Learn to run Order of Undeath without lots of self-heals.

Aww you HAD to make an insult, so I'm going to make the assumption that you have acne.

You seriously think any human can cast "death nova" better than a Hero?

Divine Ashes

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Chicago

LFG

R/

08 Jun 2010 at 12:51 - 18

I used to run an MM in the old 5 man Oro runs like 4 years ago. Having 40-50 minions just crush everything on screen was and still is the greatest thing I've seen on GW lol.

Risus

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2007

56min UW HM post-2/25 I win

FDR

A/

08 Jun 2010 at 13:03 - 19

MM's aren't overpowered, especially in hard mode. If you ever say "Sabway much" then recognize that sabway is 3 MM's with bars specifically made to have the MM's excel in Hard Mode. Ever try running Discord in Hard Mode (or even NORMAL MODE) in an area with AoE? BaiBai minions.

And here is the fact about Death Nova on players vs AI. AI can find minions and cast on them immediately. Players have to mouse over the huge ball of minions, guess which one has Death Nova or not, repeat repeat repeat repeat. AI wins.

chullster

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2008

Blighty, Land of bad weather and plucky Brits

R.I.P. DJ HMS [BZRK]

08 Jun 2010 at 13:41 - 20

Human MM's are still fun to play and powerful in HM. Have a go and see what happens when you have 12 bone fiends level 22-23, then hit OoU with Death magic at 21, and plant your 3 ebon wards, using the damage one first.

You need a necro/rit healer hero, or a human with good reflexes to keep up, but it's worth it for the fun. Greater damage for greater risk.

miriforst

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

Avalons Wraiths

R/Rt

08 Jun 2010 at 14:51 - 21

necros are tough to balance, and it is seriously the class when it comes to flexibility and power, especially in pve.

yes necros had an power creep and a lot of things maybe does something better than a MM, but if they buff necros in another attribute it will spray opdness all over the place.

curses necros for SS and jummy dmg, protection and more, blood for awesome support and for SV and soul reaping... does i have to point that out?

death magic surely isn't bad as an attribute, it got decent damage spells as well as a wall of weak but spammable minions that roll over things until facing of elementalist bosses.

the only problem is that there is lots of mobs that doesn't leave corpses like in the uw, but then rangers cant spread their poison either.

probably they are going to focus on Motivation, possibly mysticism and hopefully wilderness survival before messing with other attributes (and then even deadly arts may be a bit higher in priority than this)
after having buffed atleast 5 other attributes i dont think they will look into it.

But i want to tell that i rather see a necromancer being a necromancer (reawakening the dead) than being better mesmers (SS, SV) than mesmers are while still having a bigger flexibility.

anyway necros are among the most popular in high end pve although not MM:s all the time

aspi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

eeew

N/Rt

08 Jun 2010 at 15:30 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risus

MM's aren't overpowered, especially in hard mode. If you ever say "Sabway much" then recognize that sabway is 3 MM's with bars specifically made to have the MM's excel in Hard Mode. Ever try running Discord in Hard Mode (or even NORMAL MODE) in an area with AoE? BaiBai minions.

And here is the fact about Death Nova on players vs AI. AI can find minions and cast on them immediately. Players have to mouse over the huge ball of minions, guess which one has Death Nova or not, repeat repeat repeat repeat. AI wins.

? I vanquished EOTN and almost all of Elona with 8 necro's. I went pretty smooth and sure there is some areas with large aoe but i rather see the minions die than my team.

For a human MM it's it probably easier to use putrid bile than death nova, but the AI is much better at bombing than most people.

Awex Mafyews

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2008

Cornwall

W/Mo

08 Jun 2010 at 15:39 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

I don't run MM because I rather watch someone play tennis. IE: it's boring, like knitting or something horrible.

knitting is boring, tennis most definitely is not, unless your not the sporty type, who can't appreciate anything skillfull unless it's on a computer screen........

But yes MM are very powerful, I wouldn't say there overpowered but having an MM hero is extremely hand in a lot of PvE

The Riven

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

None worth mentioning

P/

08 Jun 2010 at 15:50 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Aww you HAD to make an insult, so I'm going to make the assumption that you have acne.

You seriously think any human can cast "death nova" better than a Hero?

Gotta stick up for Xenos here, A human MM is better than a hero MM, a hero MB will always cast DN with more accuracy. What Xenos is saying is a good necro MM is better than a hero version. Its quite simple.

That being said, I will always prefer to run a curses build over death.

Edit to add....

A MM in FA is always a giggle though

Nihilim Dhiamara

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2008

belgium

TFW

W/

08 Jun 2010 at 15:57 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divine Ashes

I used to run an MM in the old 5 man Oro runs like 4 years ago. Having 40-50 minions just crush everything on screen was and still is the greatest thing I've seen on GW lol.

I've only been playing from faction release but could anyone post some screenshots of it? I would love to see 50 minions in actions

nitetime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

eotn

W/

08 Jun 2010 at 15:58 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

A human MM is better than a hero MM, a hero MB will always cast DN with more accuracy. Its quite simple.

So not all MM's are MB's?

The Riven

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

None worth mentioning

P/

08 Jun 2010 at 16:03 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitetime

So not all MM's are MB's?

No, vast difference between the two. One uses low lvl explosive minions to deal dmg, the other doesn't.

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

08 Jun 2010 at 16:03 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awex Mafyews

knitting is boring, tennis most definitely is not, unless your not the sporty type, who can't appreciate anything skillfull unless it's on a computer screen........

yea, i was like tennis? really? golf would probably be the obvious choice, but i'm guessing hes a golf enthusiast and so doesn't want to insult his own sport.

anyways, my memory is a bit fuzzy; which came first, sorrows furnace or tomb of primeval kings? because mm's were quite popular in topk as well, running along side one build i do miss greatly, the orders necro.

to the person that said mm is boring, you probably never had the joy of upkeeping 50+ minions.

while 50 minions is likely out of the question in today's gw, maintaining 30+ minions via multiple necro heroes is still quite doable and still quite fun.

belshazaarswrath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

AMP

08 Jun 2010 at 17:58 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Yes, but that is not the point.

If that's not your point then you don't have a point because you said that he sucks if his heroes can do it better than he can. But if it's IMPOSSIBLE for people to do it better than heroes then what you said is just wrong and you're saying That's not the point just to hide that fact. Which would be sad...

Quote:

Maybe mesmers just suck? I don't care much about them, I also fail to see how a mesmer could ever replace a MM in a group. Unless it is in areas with no corpses. Even then I'd rather take a ranger or even a warrior before I think about bringing an annoying mesmer with me.

Wrong. they just serve a different purpose in the party and are played in a completely different way. They are used to generally disrupt your enemies and the way they play. If you use panic right you can basically shut down a whole mob whilst using your other skills to kill the crap out of everything.

Anyway there are 8 slots in the party so why not use both?

Oh and I was never around before MM's were popular. I do remember when pre minion cap MM's owned SF. I can't imagine what the game would be like if MM's could still have limitless minions...then there would be absolutely no point in bringing anything but MM's unless there are NO corpses to be seen.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

08 Jun 2010 at 18:28 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

If that's not your point then you don't have a point because you said that he sucks if his heroes can do it better than he can. But if it's IMPOSSIBLE for people to do it better than heroes then what you said is just wrong and you're saying That's not the point just to hide that fact. Which would be sad...

...

The post to which I replied was not specifying between Minion Bombers and Minion Masters - the OP itself doesn't make the distinction either.

I hold that a good human MM is better than a hero MB.
I have seen nothing to convince me that 10 bone minions (at level 13) with Death Nova is better than 7-8 fiends and 3-4 Vamp Horrors (all at level 20) under Order of Undeath and EBSoH.

My point was that a human with minions can perform better than a hero with minions - even if the methods are different.
My point was not that running as a MM is the best role for a human to go with (indeed, this is often not the case).
Hence, my post.

Zipster

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

Namelessones

N/Me

08 Jun 2010 at 19:50 - 31

I used to solo my mm to farm Gypsie Ettin's for Superior Monk runes. That was nice cash stream. Little hard to get the first bone boy up, but once you got rolling nothing stopped you.

As far as Death Magic goes, I used to run Toxic Chill bar with great success many years back. Today there are so many better skills to consider it.

combatchuck

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Mo/

09 Jun 2010 at 00:25 - 32

I miss the old MM, even if it was easy mode. In Sorrow's Furnace, I could basically run full speed through everything, stopping only to cast. It was like a supercharged steamroller. Every time you see purple numbers, cast animate or verata's. It was a thing of beauty to have a mob of 50+ ranged attackers at my command. Just let me get the first 2 or 3 horrors up, and then everybody else can sit back and take a break. It would've gotten boring, though.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

09 Jun 2010 at 03:05 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

You are still going to operate under peak efficiency for human necromancer player (do not use death magic ...), but o well, that is ancient debate.

I'm beginning to question that ancient wisdom. I H+H'ed the last couple days worth of WiK dailies as a MM instead of a curse build for a change of pace. It steamrolled stuff faster and easier. Maybe it's just an artifact of the smaller team size. (Now, of course, encountering Falken's spawns right off the bat, before getting any minions up, was a huge problem...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Aww you HAD to make an insult, so I'm going to make the assumption that you have acne.

You seriously think any human can cast "death nova" better than a Hero?

I hate to add another insult, but you have no idea what you're talking about if you think Death Nova has any place in a good MM build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

If that's not your point then you don't have a point because you said that he sucks if his heroes can do it better than he can. But if it's IMPOSSIBLE for people to do it better than heroes then what you said is just wrong and you're saying That's not the point just to hide that fact. Which would be sad...

You misunderstand. You also brutalize the English language. I can maybe help with the first issue: Xeno's (correct) point is that a human MM is far superior to a hero MB. Zwei's (generally accepted) point is that being a MM is not the best use of a human necro because a human curse necro is superior to a human MM. The two positions are not inconsistent, and could be summarized like so: "Human_Curses > Human_MM > Hero_MB."

cellardweller

Likes naked dance offs

Join Date: Aug 2005

The Older Gamers [TOG]

09 Jun 2010 at 03:11 - 34

I think the more important consideration is that you gain more by switching a curses hero to a curses player than you do from switching a hero bomber to a human mm.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

09 Jun 2010 at 07:14 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm beginning to question that ancient wisdom. I H+H'ed the last couple days worth of WiK dailies as a MM instead of a curse build for a change of pace. It steamrolled stuff faster and easier. Maybe it's just an artifact of the smaller team size. (Now, of course, encountering Falken's spawns right off the bat, before getting any minions up, was a huge problem...)

That is interesting, and understandable: Enemy team is smaller, your team is also smaller, minion usefullness ratio goes up while curses aoe goes down as well as number of your possible physical triggers. MOP simply does not have its wham when you face few oponents (not even talking about ss which feels like wasted slot, but it always felt like that).

Also, AI was updated to put splinter weapon on minions which, if you have it in your build along with fiends and orders, should be pretty sick. Add some spirits on weapon spammer and you will have little use for curses.

aspi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

eeew

N/Rt

09 Jun 2010 at 08:32 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Wrong. they just serve a different purpose in the party and are played in a completely different way. They are used to generally disrupt your enemies and the way they play. If you use panic right you can basically shut down a whole mob whilst using your other skills to kill the crap out of everything.

Anyway there are 8 slots in the party so why not use both?

I used to bring Gwen when I didn't have the necro heroes. Even with full gear and insignias she always seem to die first and never saw the use of her besides the first interrupt. Now I must say I don't know the slightest thing about mesmers and basicly tried pvx builds for gwen. Never saw a good heroe panic build there btw. Must be good after the mesmer buff?

Zebideedee

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

55?? 57' 0" N / 3?? 12' 0" W

N/Me

09 Jun 2010 at 09:21 - 37

Yet to find a human player who can outplay a hero MM. Met a lot of MM when I was doing JQ, I could single handedly take out all of there minions, think most were too busy making minions than using death nova etc. I took out all their minions when i came a across them

MM & Rupts are heroes strong points and should be taken advantage of

The Riven

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

None worth mentioning

P/

09 Jun 2010 at 09:43 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebideedee

Yet to find a human player who can outplay a hero MM. Met a lot of MM when I was doing JQ, I could single handedly take out all of there minions, think most were too busy making minions than using death nova etc. I took out all their minions when i came a across them

MM & Rupts are heroes strong points and should be taken advantage of

What?

I don't know where to start ripping this post apart... I will just leave it for someone will more eloquence than myself.

majoho

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Denmark

09 Jun 2010 at 09:53 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I hate to add another insult, but you have no idea what you're talking about if you think Death Nova has any place in a good MM build.

Be my guest, it's not like you're any kind of authority on the subject.

Zebideedee

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

55?? 57' 0" N / 3?? 12' 0" W

N/Me

09 Jun 2010 at 09:55 - 40

Quote:

I don't know where to start ripping this post apart... I will just leave it for someone will more eloquence than myself.

Go ahead, I'm speaking from personal experience here. The fact that you have no response leads me to believe your looking for ammo elswhere before you respond. Anywhoo, thats neither here nor there.