Update - Thursday June 10th, 2010

That's funny. I've beat every WiK bounty since release on all 10 professions. I haven't missed a single day, quest or profession. I've done it with 2 accounts and heroes, with h/h and also with PuGs. Which tells me a lot of people have beat this as well. I fail to see what you are complaining about. If it's causing you so much grief stop playing.

We've all heard this before. You're no different then the people who complained about DoA being too hard or HM being too hard. The list goes on. Anet didn't design a game that was impossible to play.

It would be a nice feature if they added that henchjes could level, in a level like the last quest it would very likely be that they atleast leveled once, and since the majority of the gifts are xp scrolls they can be put to good use for once

Funny. I thought they were a punishment for bringing a caster class, since they have to be dropped in the middle of a group to be effective. Leeroying into the middle is not wise behavior for a squishy.

Of course, leeroying into the middle without a weapon and shield in hand is not wise behavior for a non-squishy. So, in the end, the beacons seem pretty pointless for everyone.

Too bad they don't have a time delay, so you could drop the beacon in front of an advancing group and then retreat. If they worked something like traps, they'd be fantastic.

They made hard mode for a reason, because those who were mentally challenged couldn't come up with way of being challenged coughgimikbuilds and coughursan.

With that being said sense there are two options Normal and Hard they need to balance it as such or their who we want to make the game fun it a line of BS.

yeah but I don't think it has to do with being mentally challenged.. some people are just lazy.. it's the same in rl

it's like the guy in prison and they ask if he wants to go down to the yard.. he's all lazy and gets soap burns instead.. then complains when he gets out about how hard it was

They're a punishment for H+Hing, since you can't bow pull while carrying one.

1.Henchmen are essentially just meat shields who can still do some damage, that's all they've ever been. Spirit spam hero, MM hero=problem solved

2.Pull better

3. I never even used the beacon, and I cleared it just fine. This was before the bug fix, and yes, I followed the mission objectives even though I didn't actually use the beacon.

4. If anything, I always find the ally NPCs to be a annoyance rather then being helpful and you really shouldn't even need them.

This thread is about the recent update not the WiK bounties. Try to stay on topic.

• That's weird, I thought henchmen were replacements for other players. It just so happens to be that in the recent quests the player is using resources designed for mid level characters to complete content designed for max level players.
  
• That's a great argument. It's so good I think you could use it for every issue someone had with anything regardless of how valid their concern was.
  
• That's my point. Why design a mission with an mechanic which is essentially a burden for half of the game's classes? For many of these people the beacon was so poorly designed and implemented they just ignored it because holding it with a martial class meant you couldn't fight. In NM with 4 level 15 henchmen and only three heroes this is a huge loss for your party.
  
• I like the allied NPCs. Just because you can complete content without a monk or a full party or an elite skill doesn't mean you should have to or even want to. Some things enhance people's play experience and that is the purpose of the allied NPCs - you might personally dislike them but I know many people who do like them. I think it's a weird inconsistency for them to not be available in the three "new" explorable areas (and other places like Twin Serpent Lakes).

My point was this content is poorly balanced and designed in many ways. Arguing that it's possible to complete the content with build x y or z doesn't mean the content is designed well or balanced. It just means the content is possible to complete. The game has to account for a wide variety of skill levels, experience and play styles and this WiK is doing a very poor job. When so many people are having trouble in NM for very good reason, you have a problem.

A-Net has included in the design of these quests (this latest one especially) mechanics that encourage partying up with other players: 1. Party up with another person and there goes the low level henchies (assuming both people have heroes). 2. In "Help From Above," each player in the party can get the standard, the more standards, the more carnage. (see pages 1 & 2 of this thread)

So yeah, they may be poorly balanced for a H/H team (Yay, level 10 -15Alesia!), but for a party of Players + heroes, the balance isn't so far off.

I've only seen a couple of people saying they have problems, where are you getting "many" from ?

• I've done all the WIK stuff with H/H and haven't had any problems with them yet. I changed the heroes I usually bring (from MM / Ele / Ele to MM / Ele / Monk) but I'm still doing fine in NM and HM.
• I haven't seen any poorly pathed mobs. If you pay attention to what's going on around you, you shouldn't have a problem keeping them apart.
• The Asura Beacon is not needed.
• The random spawn allies are nice helpers but if you *need* them to finish the WIK stuff, you're doing something wrong.

You are the only person I know of who had trouble in NM, if you're really that bad, then bring some guild mates. I can promise you if anyone you know is even a tad competent, it will go much smoother. If for some reason you're guild won't help you, then pug it.

It's not poorly balanced in the least, is it a bit of a challenge? Yes, just like people have wanted for a while now.

I think Celestina's point is valid. The main challenge in this mission is combat flow management. The enemies aren't "poorly pathed"...they're pathed in a more engaging manner than most areas of the game. Most areas of the game have you defeat a group, edge forward and pull the next group, and repeat. This mission (the village portion anyway) rewards players who can manage to quickly defeat a group, then retreat a bit to reassess the battlefield before engaging the next group. Straggle too long, and you can get overwhelmed. Fight, retreat, and re-engage, and you'll control the battle flow. This pathing could catch players off-guard the first time they attempt the mission and enter the village gate. After that, it should be obvious that better aggro management is the main challenge.

This also means that players who rely on minion walls may have more difficulty retreating before the next enemy group gets aggroed. Considering how prevalent minions are in the PvE meta, I'm sure this was a conscious decision on Anet's part.

In other words, the very best piece of advice anyone could give a player for this mission is in fact "pull better".

I was actually surprised when I did this mission, wiped twice against the huge guard mob before cleaning them up. The beacons really don't help h/h if your a caster, as trying to run up to the mob is pretty much scuicidal.

I thought it was kinda funny how many hard resses the mantle have, if you wipe they will res up and be at full strength by the time you return.

I was on topic. Face it you're by yourself in this debate.

They should have axed the beacon idea and turned it into a temporary "Summon Golem Bits" skill or something.

If you went to the trouble of infusing henchmen, why not make them level 20?

It's pretty ridiculous, the Peacekeepers smash them like insects as things stand...

Do it in HM then the henchies are lvl 20

You have weird observation sills because I never said I had trouble. I said a lot of people were having trouble. My posts were specifically a critique of the poorly designed aspects of the recent quest. Players having trouble was a consequence of poor design.

This thread is about the Thursday June 10th update, which is primarily the quest. Not about how many toons you completed WiK bounties with and how many days you did it.

I'm not the only one arguing there are poor design elements of this quest, in fact many people agree with my point about the beacons, some even said they are pointless for casters as well as melee (groups seem to have enjoyed them but I don't contest that). If by alone you mean alone in arguing that the quest was too hard... well I might be alone if that was what I argued at all, and it's not.

I'm all for players playing with other people, but creating a mission that doesn't appear to have considered H/H in NM in the design, or dealt with the obvious flaws, is just foolish. Ignoring people who want to do things in NM without other players to force group play isn't something I believe they intentionally did.

Going H/H on this had many frustrating pitfalls that are poor design, not poor player sill. From being unable to perform a role because you have a beacon (which would otherwise be a meaningless implementation if you drop it early or ignore it), to having henchmen that are behind the curve in armour and health. I'm not going to repeat these points again because it's apparent many of the responders are reading what they want, whether it was written or not.

My post is about the design choices made in this mission, not about the difficulty of the mission. My goal isn't to convince you it was was too hard, but to critique design elements and why I believe they were poor choices. I do this in hopes a CM will read it and I believe I have achieved that goal.

While it's not immediately specific to this update, it is a common theme in criticism or praise of new quests. I want to address the "challenge argument." People who want more challenge, play in HM because you want challenge not increased rewards. Play without PvE skills, play without consets. Play without that super niche hero set up that is so good, hell play without heroes at all. Play without dieing, play without elite skills, play without primary attributes, play on a time limit. There are plenty of things you have the power to do to make the game more challenging. All of them are as free and easy to turn on as selecting a different difficulty.This game is for everyone who plays, not the dude who hasn't seen sunlight in 5 years and completes every daily quest on every class in between speed clears of DoA. When kids want more challenge out of pokemon they limit their team to no evolving or specific "bad pokemon" and then play the game. Many console RPGs have a player created single character challenge. Try showing some of the initiative that these people do if you want a bigger challenge.

Seriously, even though I wasn't going to I did the 2 WiK missions on my Warrior yesterday (h/h) and while it was a bit harder than with a caster it still wasn't hard (I'm talking normal mode).

Obviously I ditched the beacon immediately otherwise I wouldn't do any damage at all, but overall everything went smooth, I used a bow for pulling at the temple so I wouldn't get overrun and it worked well.

I usually I hate people that say these thing but you seriously need to learn to play, yes it's harder than most normal play but not too hard for anyone with a brain, also the beacon isn't strictly needed for anything.

I started taking my 5+ year old necro through WIK yesterday and she was getting destroyed by the Jades. I then realized she got new armor when Factions came out and she hadn't been back to Prophecies since. Her new armor wasn't infused lol.