If Ether Renewal is/isn't Nerfed...
jazilla
/unsigned. you will kill a really fun option for eles in HM PvE. What's the point? IF anything shouldn't the assassin SC's be addressed BEFORE this? Also, shouldn't Derv and Para buffs come BEFORE this? ER builds are so niche really. I actually prefer using an AP caller over this. If you wanted to nerf ER, it should have come 2 years ago when I was running it for my Ele 600. ER for 600'ing was better than any other 600 out there bar none. OP kinda missed the boat on the ER nerf by a few years.
Shayne Hawke
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
If they make Ether Renewal last longer and shorten the recharge; but have it only effecting elementalist skills, I'd be fine with that.
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Zodiac Meteor
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Originally Posted by jazilla
/unsigned. you will kill a really fun option for eles in HM PvE. What's the point? IF anything shouldn't the assassin SC's be addressed BEFORE this? Also, shouldn't Derv and Para buffs come BEFORE this? ER builds are so niche really. I actually prefer using an AP caller over this. If you wanted to nerf ER, it should have come 2 years ago when I was running it for my Ele 600. ER for 600'ing was better than any other 600 out there bar none. OP kinda missed the boat on the ER nerf by a few years.
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You didn't read. The last thing I want is ER nerfed, it's a overpowered skill that gives Ele's a place in hard mode. Just like all other overpowered skills they get hit with the nerf gun for multiple reasons.
ER might be on that target list, the thing is should it be on or off the nerf list. As a Guild Wars community the nerf is based whether we like it as it is or not. ArenaNet won't go nerfing skills that we don't care about, it's the ones that we do care and abuse that gets hit with the nerf gun.
Chthon
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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor
Looking at previous nerfs, Ursan, Shadowform and 600 monks should Ether Renewal be nerfed?
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1. There has to be a major outcry. Every one of those nerfs came after months of complaining. By comparison, responses to ER healers are still more "huh?" than outrage.
2. Overpowered alone does not warrant a crushing nerf. It needs to be overpowered, PLUS a second factor. Take note:
Ursan was completely overpowered and utterly mindless. By comparison, ER takes a modicum of skill, at least at the level of maintaining bonds under heavy fire in difficult zones. (If you don't believe me, ask Malican what the fail rate is for PUG ERs trying to do UW.) I like things that encourage and reward skill. In that respect, ER is a great thing.
SF and 600 were completely overpowered and made the impossible possible -- UW in 10 minutes, almost any dungeon with 1 player + 1 hero. (You might also say that SF was really, really overpowered even when played at a mindless level.) By comparison, ER doesn't do much to help you exceed the boundaries of what a good balanced team could do with a more traditional backline; it just helps you reach those boundaries with more ease and reliability.
On top of that, we have the issue of whither eles if ER gets nerfed. We've got a class with one solid HM build (maybe two if you count AP+EBSoH+DoTAoE spam). Unless we see Intensity or Elemental Lord buffed to give big, maintainable, percentile (not integer) armor penetration in the very same update, the whole class would be pretty much ready for the dumpster at that point.
NerfHerder
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
What skills are they going to fuel with your proposed ER that are going to help them out that much in HM, especially in a damage-focused build?
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Kosar The Cruel
I do like that it gives Eles something else to do besides spam AoE fire spells in PvE.
But, on the other hand, I was never a fan of SpeedClears and EMO ERs are the reason they're kinda still around right? I dont follow SC builds all to much so correct me if Im wrong.
But, on the other hand, I was never a fan of SpeedClears and EMO ERs are the reason they're kinda still around right? I dont follow SC builds all to much so correct me if Im wrong.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by NerfHerder
As Eles are now, they need some buffing, even the Elite skills they have dont work well in HM. However, they do have quite a few high energy low recharge skills that could benefit from ER only activating from Ele skills. Lightning Hammer and Stoning come to mind. Regardless, Ele skills would need some buffs for it to be effective.
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WhiteAsIce
People already don't like ER. It's near impossible to get into groups to do the daily quests because they all swear by Monks and Monks only.
Chthon
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Originally Posted by Kosar The Cruel
But, on the other hand, I was never a fan of SpeedClears and EMO ERs are the reason they're kinda still around right? I dont follow SC builds all to much so correct me if Im wrong.
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The Drunkard
Meh, I'm split on ER:
-Infuse spam I don't mind, because it has some pretty glaring flaws that mobs can capitalize on. As soon as ER is down, the build becomes useless.
- Maintaining 16 bonds and tanking in the UW is something I have a problem with. If Anet would give burning speed a 3 second recharge, the bonding would stop.
For now, keep it as it is.
-Infuse spam I don't mind, because it has some pretty glaring flaws that mobs can capitalize on. As soon as ER is down, the build becomes useless.
- Maintaining 16 bonds and tanking in the UW is something I have a problem with. If Anet would give burning speed a 3 second recharge, the bonding would stop.
For now, keep it as it is.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
Meh, I'm split on ER:
-Infuse spam I don't mind, because it has some pretty glaring flaws that mobs can capitalize on. As soon as ER is down, the build becomes useless. - Maintaining 16 bonds and tanking in the UW is something I have a problem with. If Anet would give burning speed a 3 second recharge, the bonding would stop. For now, keep it as it is. |
Mesmers Are Bad
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
On second thoughts, I agree with the Drunkard. Nerf Burning Speed, not ER! That'll solve it
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I think ER, when used by a halfway decent player, is way more resilient than one would be led to believe after reading this thread, to the point of it being broken. As many have said though, removing it takes eles out of the hard mode picture in a rough fashion. To me, the crux of the matter is whether eles CAN be balanced in hard mode as they are currently setup. At what point is (mostly) non-conditional damage more useful than conditional damage where the conditions are easily met? do we really want to nerf necromancers and mesmers to feed eles? and what about the physicals? is the answer to make eles clones of the other two "nuking" classes by adding in more armor ignoring conditional damage of similar power level?
I'm not sure about any of those but i do know it'd be less of a hassle to just leave it be.
lol wall of text...tl;dr: I think it deserves to be nerf'd but I don't want to pull the trigger.
Gabriel of Ravn
I say let the eles keep ER as is as long as sins get to keep their SF.
Ranger Jaap
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
On second thoughts, I agree with the Drunkard. Nerf Burning Speed, not ER! That'll solve it
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The Josip
ER is vastly overpowered and needs to be nerfed, but that's entirely political decision.
And this thread will be full of:
1. "I want to keep using my overpowered build there's nothing wrong with it"
2. Noobs who don't see why ER is overpowered and how much
3. People who say "keep ER because ele is otherwise crap in HM" - but ER should be nerfed regardless. Mesmer were total and utter crap in PvE and as a result they didn't have super-overpowered build to compensate for that. Overpowered skills need to be nerfed - that's it. I do sympathize with this groupation.
And this thread will be full of:
1. "I want to keep using my overpowered build there's nothing wrong with it"
2. Noobs who don't see why ER is overpowered and how much
3. People who say "keep ER because ele is otherwise crap in HM" - but ER should be nerfed regardless. Mesmer were total and utter crap in PvE and as a result they didn't have super-overpowered build to compensate for that. Overpowered skills need to be nerfed - that's it. I do sympathize with this groupation.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by The Josip
ER is vastly overpowered and needs to be nerfed, but that's entirely political decision.
3. People who say "keep ER because ele is otherwise crap in HM" - but ER should be nerfed regardless. Mesmer were total and utter crap in PvE and as a result they didn't have super-overpowered build to compensate for that. Overpowered skills need to be nerfed - that's it. I do sympathize with this groupation. |
You have to see who knocks down, interrupts, strips enchants; actively re-bonding as you go. One spike-heal, and forget about healing wayward melee who walk out of your range. No hex removal, no condition removal, no space for a resurrection skill. It's as much of a substitute for a monk as a dervish or ritualist, or necro.
Pleikki
Meeh ive been QQing about ER since it got buffed. Should be nerfed for sure, way overpowered,
Should be changed to work only for ele skills..
Should be changed to work only for ele skills..
Riot Narita
Not in favour of it being nerfed, since I hardly see parties using it to /roll-face-on-keyboard through the whole of PvE. I also don't see "GLF ER ele to go" spammed in public chat.
It also seems to me there's a bazillion other skills/mechanics in-game that are better candidates for nerfing than ER. And none of them bothers me so much that I'm going to whine and beg for nerfs.
I'm also sceptical about most people's motives when they cry for nerfs. Only a tiny minority seems to actually make intelligent and well-reasoned arguments for a nerf. But the rest I suspect either a) have been quietly abusing something, and want to stop the masses using the same method or a better one (because it will "devalue" their pixels)... Or they are simply precious about their professions, and hate to see another profession do "their" job as well, or better.
If ER does get nerfed, I think it should become non-elite. Because any nerf that's actually effective... will probably remove it from the game altogether, if it's left as an Elite skill.
It also seems to me there's a bazillion other skills/mechanics in-game that are better candidates for nerfing than ER. And none of them bothers me so much that I'm going to whine and beg for nerfs.
I'm also sceptical about most people's motives when they cry for nerfs. Only a tiny minority seems to actually make intelligent and well-reasoned arguments for a nerf. But the rest I suspect either a) have been quietly abusing something, and want to stop the masses using the same method or a better one (because it will "devalue" their pixels)... Or they are simply precious about their professions, and hate to see another profession do "their" job as well, or better.
If ER does get nerfed, I think it should become non-elite. Because any nerf that's actually effective... will probably remove it from the game altogether, if it's left as an Elite skill.
Xiaquin
From all I've read, ER can make an overpowered healer/bonder, but that's it. I still see healers in heavy demand and I don't see ER infusers "booting" monks out of the spotlight. It might be too powerful but it's not hurting anyone. Looking at all the skills individually, the abused skill looks like Infuse Health, not ER.
Going back to the OP: IMO, ER is not even in the same league as SF, Ursan or the current rage, Glaive. I do have a rit and a DwG build but I refuse to steamroll DoA with it. I've never even attempted DoA before but I won't let my first time be with that cheap skill.
Going back to the OP: IMO, ER is not even in the same league as SF, Ursan or the current rage, Glaive. I do have a rit and a DwG build but I refuse to steamroll DoA with it. I've never even attempted DoA before but I won't let my first time be with that cheap skill.
vamp08
Anyone think we will be getting a skill update tomarrow?
...or next month?
...or next month?
The Josip
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Originally Posted by Xiaquin
From all I've read, ER can make an overpowered healer/bonder, but that's it.
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Originally Posted by Higher Minion
Need I remind you Anet realised the error of their ways and decided it was time to make mesmers overpowered also?
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pterodactyl
no nerf needed.
the skill is used in a build that still requires tact and work to be successful. the whole point of this game is to find unique uses for skills. in this case, energy management is used to heal. it is by no means moving monks out of their station as main healer. i do not see a problem here.
the skill is used in a build that still requires tact and work to be successful. the whole point of this game is to find unique uses for skills. in this case, energy management is used to heal. it is by no means moving monks out of their station as main healer. i do not see a problem here.
Steps_Descending
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
Meh, I'm split on ER:
-Infuse spam I don't mind, because it has some pretty glaring flaws that mobs can capitalize on. As soon as ER is down, the build becomes useless. - Maintaining 16 bonds and tanking in the UW is something I have a problem with. If Anet would give burning speed a 3 second recharge, the bonding would stop. For now, keep it as it is. |
But seeing the same bar with flare to keep the energy up for the bonds, I don't mind. which would probably happen if ER was made to work with ele skill only.
Flare spam with a prot thrown in for the flavor, rest is bonds.
As some people mentionned, Er isn,t rally OP. B ut that doesn't mean it's fine or can't use a tweaking, just that it isn't worth destroying.
Painbringer
To me its PVE ... nuf said
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by The Josip
How can debate like this.
8 skills for general PvE please. It's overpowered if you have a hero AI. If you are smarter than a hero, it's even more overpowered. |
ER is overpowered if you have hero AI? I think not, they're actually pretty terrible at a. Spamming and b. Maintaining ER during fights. also c. not spamming their enchants on themselves, stripping is even more of an issue.
I actually prefer a monk or necro hero.
Day Trooper
Yes Ether Renewal is a strong skill - but it is an elite skill after all. Plus it's hardly used 'by the masses' and is definitely not replacing the functionality of monks from what I can tell.
Also, besides the ER bonder role in pug UWSCs (1 person in a party of eight), what other elite areas are ER eles being used?
Not to mention the fact that Ether Renewal can easily be stripped...
Hopefully the majority here (around 71% currently) will be heard and ANet won't nerf Ether Renewal. If so, then let's also nerf Shadow Form (again), 600/smite (again), SoS Spirit Spam, DWG, PVE skills, etc., etc....
-DT
Also, besides the ER bonder role in pug UWSCs (1 person in a party of eight), what other elite areas are ER eles being used?
Not to mention the fact that Ether Renewal can easily be stripped...
Hopefully the majority here (around 71% currently) will be heard and ANet won't nerf Ether Renewal. If so, then let's also nerf Shadow Form (again), 600/smite (again), SoS Spirit Spam, DWG, PVE skills, etc., etc....
-DT
NerfHerder
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Originally Posted by Lanier
I dont know... it seems to me as though elemental attunement would still be the better choice for skills like this. The problem is that there are several elementalist energy management elites. In my opinion, ether renewal (in addition to ether prodigy) need functionality changes.
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Also, all of the QQ about ER comes from ER Prot/Orders. A functionality change to being triggered on Ele Skills, would be like how they changed SF. It would still be usable but not as powerful. I personally dont see the big deal for a nerf. I think the current poll reflects what people really think. I dont love it, but I dont think it needs a total nerf.
Kosar The Cruel
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Originally Posted by Chthon
No, SF is the reason speed clears are still around. UW is the only speed clear that uses an ER ele, and he's only there to deal with Dhuum. Nerfing SF, for real this time, is the only way speed clears can ever be killed and made to stay dead.
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I wouldn't nerf ER eles then b/c it is a fun and different option for eles.
Age
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Originally Posted by Del
Pretty strong, and although i don't actually give a shit, i do think it's lame that eles can outheal monks, but hey, they have to be useful somehow right?
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Jeydra
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Originally Posted by Age
I would say go for it.There is no way an Ele can out heal a Monk if you knew anything about the class if so then you would see them being used in tournaments.
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Anyway - I'm against nerfing ER until some of the other, more glaring imbalances are fixed first. ER is a defensive build after all. Nuke Shadow Form to the ground (just merge the PvE version with the PvP one), nerf physical damage, and then worry about nerfing ER.
The Josip
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
How can you debate like this? Are you going to keep repeating the same nonsense
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Come on it's vastly and ridiculously overpowered skill even when you're not using it to full potential.
I'm not going to debate obvious things here. You like imbalance, especially since you use it. That's you. I prefer balance. I don't like imbalance even when it favors me. You can go on and on protecting your favorite overpowered builds and playstyles, but it won't change the fact they are overpowered.
Jeydra
@above - you're missing the point. Don't bring up strawman arguments because HigherMinion hasn't said anything about ER not being overpowered. Read it carefully. He said how heroes use ER badly, offered reasons and said he prefers Monks / Necros to ER heroes. Then re-examine your post.
Age
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Age isn't done trolling ER Eles rofl.
Anyway - I'm against nerfing ER until some of the other, more glaring imbalances are fixed first. ER is a defensive build after all. Nuke Shadow Form to the ground (just merge the PvE version with the PvP one), nerf physical damage, and then worry about nerfing ER. |
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by Age
Who says I am trolling if you knew what ones is I am making valid point.You know squat about me on these boards.
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NERF THEM ALL I SAY, TO OBLIVION!111
Basically, if ER is nerfed because it's better than a monk, everything listed above needs a good seeing to.
jimbo32
In my opinion, the reason why ER seems so beefy in this instance isn't necessarily due to the skill itself. The problem lies with the relatively (as compared to an Ele) poor energy management of the Monk class. Using the ER Prot Hero build as an example, even without ER, the Ele could pretty much spam prots through most any fight (80+ energy @ 14 ES w/ staff). A monk with a similar bar would likely run into trouble - four 10en prots would kill their blue bar in a hurry (~40en or so).
It's my opinion that until monks get some sort of class-innate energy management, we'll continue to see builds like the ER infuser. It's popular for the same reason that the N/Rt SoLS healer is a PvE staple - it blows the energy management of your average monk to hell.
Divine Favor needs some sort of energy return functionality imo. Maybe something that reacts with maintained enchants, or something that functions sorta like Leadership does for Paras - X energy returned for each ally affected by a given spell (meaning Divine Healing or Aegis-type spells would provide energy gain). *shrug*
It's my opinion that until monks get some sort of class-innate energy management, we'll continue to see builds like the ER infuser. It's popular for the same reason that the N/Rt SoLS healer is a PvE staple - it blows the energy management of your average monk to hell.
Divine Favor needs some sort of energy return functionality imo. Maybe something that reacts with maintained enchants, or something that functions sorta like Leadership does for Paras - X energy returned for each ally affected by a given spell (meaning Divine Healing or Aegis-type spells would provide energy gain). *shrug*
reaper with no name
ER is overpowered, but it's all Eles have. Nerfing it would be like nerfing HB, WA, DS, SY, WE, and every decent Hammer skill all at the same time. To nerf ER is to nerf the entire Elementalist class.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by jimbo32
In my opinion, the reason why ER seems so beefy in this instance isn't necessarily due to the skill itself. The problem lies with the relatively (as compared to an Ele) poor energy management of the Monk class. Using the ER Prot Hero build as an example, even without ER, the Ele could pretty much spam prots through most any fight (80+ energy @ 14 ES w/ staff). A monk with a similar bar would likely run into trouble - four 10en prots would kill their blue bar in a hurry (~40en or so).
It's my opinion that until monks get some sort of class-innate energy management, we'll continue to see builds like the ER infuser. It's popular for the same reason that the N/Rt SoLS healer is a PvE staple - it blows the energy management of your average monk to hell. Divine Favor needs some sort of energy return functionality imo. Maybe something that reacts with maintained enchants, or something that functions sorta like Leadership does for Paras - X energy returned for each ally affected by a given spell (meaning Divine Healing or Aegis-type spells would provide energy gain). *shrug* |
What have they got at the moment? Auspicious Incantation, perhaps. Glyph of Lesser Energy, Selfless Spirit, Assassin's Promise sort of.
Selfless was the best way to go until it was immediately nerfed, because monks got too overpowered, for some reason. Odd they nerfed that and nothing to damage the ER infuse/bonder... What's their game?
Desert Rose
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Originally Posted by jimbo32
It's my opinion that until monks get some sort of class-innate energy management, we'll continue to see builds like the ER infuser. It's popular for the same reason that the N/Rt SoLS healer is a PvE staple - it blows the energy management of your average monk to hell.
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Builds like the ER infuser are in a whole different league; only in very few areas and teambuilds a primary monk would perform better than an ER infuser even when controlled by a good player.
Smith23
Your trying to get rid of one of the only good Elementalist skill. Aura of Restoration is a non elite skill that provides better healing, while Ether Renewal is just a little better at giving you energy. Using them both might make it look a little overpowered but a Elementalist in HM needs all the help they can get, do to every creature having a large amount of armor against fire, cold, earth and air magic.
Lanier
Heroes actually use ER builds very, very well. I prefer an ER protter to a hero prot monk, though i would probably still stick with an HB monk for my healer as they don't tend to have energy problems.