If Ether Renewal is/isn't Nerfed... - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

09 Jul 2010 at 02:44 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Selfless was the best way to go until it was immediately nerfed, because monks got too overpowered, for some reason. Odd they nerfed that and nothing to damage the ER infuse/bonder... What's their game?

It was a one-skill solution. It made every monk into a super monk, even if they were a skill-less button masher and every single one of their other 7 skill choices was a bad choice. Much like with Ursan, overpowered + mindless = nerf.

That's why I prefer a slightly more subtle approach to the next monk buff:

1. Change Selfless Spirit from "skills that target another ally" to "skills that do not target yourself." This brings Aegis and Heal Party within its ambit.

2. Functionality change for Holy Haste: 5e, 1/4cast, 15recharge, "Spell. All of your other monk skills are recharged and you gain 0...5 energy for each skill recharged in this way." The goal here is a non-elite AP. The most important effect is to make Selfless Spirit maintainable -- if you have the sense to run the two skills together. As a bonus, it makes Aegis and SoL available more frequently (two worthwhile things ER can't do better). I'd expect people to run enough DF to hit the breakpoint for 3 energy and maybe have 3 long-recharge skills (Selfless, Aegis, SoL), resulting in a net gain of 4 energy every 15 sec.

3. Finally, we need a little bit of bar compression to make up for adding a second e-management skill. So, let's take a crappy DF skill and rework it. Watchful Healing and Spell Shield are two good candidates. Words of Comfort is also so bad it could be moved to DF and reworked. I suggest: Formerly-crappy-DF-skill, 5e, 1cast, 4recharge, "Spell. Remove 1 hex from target ally. If a hex is removed in this way, this skill takes an additional 4 seconds to recharge. If a hex is not removed in this way, 1 condition is removed instead. 50% chance of failure with Divine Favor of 4 or less."

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

09 Jul 2010 at 05:09 - 82

Wait, what? I think you're over-analyzing Guild Wars' skills. Leave the worries to skill balancers.

How often do you see "LFG INFUSE ELE" anyways?

Airstu

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2007

BC, eh

Liars Cheats and thieves [liar]

09 Jul 2010 at 05:25 - 83

As has been said before:

a) this is a niche build the requires a team to work.
b) make eles more effective in HM so they can actually do something

Quote:

People already don't like ER. It's near impossible to get into groups to do the daily quests because they all swear by Monks and Monks only

Pugs, lol.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

09 Jul 2010 at 23:18 - 84

I have to thank this thread for giving me the courage to try to run one of these as a hero build. I set Sousuke up with only a general idea of how it works. He did pretty good and never ran out of energy through Battle for LA. Don't nerf this, I think I like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airstu

Pugs, lol.

Yeah, not everyone is in a highly active guild, or even in one at all, contrary to general perception of game title.

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

10 Jul 2010 at 00:42 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I have to thank this thread for giving me the courage to try to run one of these as a hero build. I set Sousuke up with only a general idea of how it works. He did pretty good and never ran out of energy through Battle for LA. Don't nerf this, I think I like it.

I never leave town without my ER protting zhed anymore... but yea, it needs nerfing imo. Its just too good.

Risus

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2007

56min UW HM post-2/25 I win

FDR

A/

11 Jul 2010 at 22:31 - 86

QQ thread more pl0x?

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

12 Jul 2010 at 00:43 - 87

Bad troll much? And that doesn't actually make sense... If people didn't say it so often I'd ask wtf? DILLIGAF.

KageNoShi

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2009

In the shadows.

[SIGH]

A/

12 Jul 2010 at 00:45 - 88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

How often do you see "LFG INFUSE ELE" anyways?

Not very often actually, outside of ToA, never.

Malician

Oak Ridge Boys Fan

Join Date: Jun 2007

E/P

12 Jul 2010 at 04:06 - 89

Virtually every human ER I've ever seen outside of my guild is terrible. So what if it's invincible when you know how to use it? No-one does. Most users will just get nailed with enchant strips or interrupts.

I'd suggest nerfing PB instead; prot monk style is much more fun than just maintaining a bunch of PB while watching a movie.

Ferminator

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2009

D/

12 Jul 2010 at 07:10 - 90

The thing is, the elementalist has no ezymode uhh.... I mean...... "viable" alternatives for hard mode other than Ether Renewal. When arenanet decide to buff elementalists and give them a viable alternative wouldn't that mean no one will use ER anyway? So really, the way to nerf ER is to not nerf it at all, buff everything else because everything else sucks.

mage767

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

LOVE

Me/E

12 Jul 2010 at 07:38 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferminator

The thing is, the elementalist has no ezymode uhh.... I mean...... "viable" alternatives for hard mode other than Ether Renewal. When arenanet decide to buff elementalists and give them a viable alternative wouldn't that mean no one will use ER anyway? So really, the way to nerf ER is to not nerf it at all, buff everything else because everything else sucks.

I disagree. I believe that a true master elementalist is one who can adapt his/her elemental powers to meet the needs of a mission, HM or not. That is, learning enemy weaknesses, and switching skills on the go.

Examples:
1. Using water builds against destroyers, combined with EOTN skills (vs destroyers).
2. Using fire skills against imps/ice golems.
3. Using earth wards + WAH, water shields when fighting fire bosses / fire areas. (usually equipped on hero).
4. Using a varierty of earth builds to keep enemies kd'd continuously in HM.
5. AP meteor shower nuker is still a great build for vanquishing/missions.

There is more than enough variety for ele. An ele does not necessarily need to be a destructive class. It should also function be a support class that enhances the enviromenment to to benefit the team. It must NEVER be a healing/protting class.

Sadly most people stick to fire, and use it in the wrong areas at the wrong times, and qq about damage being lower than melee. Learn to adapt or gtfo.

To end this, ER protting should be nerfed. It's a bad gimmick for bad players.

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

12 Jul 2010 at 08:15 - 92

There is variety, perhaps. But as it's been discussed with mesmers, you want raw power and the defence you can must up with wards is not exactly rewarding enough to care about.

Malician

Oak Ridge Boys Fan

Join Date: Jun 2007

E/P

12 Jul 2010 at 13:01 - 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I disagree. I believe that a true master elementalist is one who can adapt his/her elemental powers to meet the needs of a mission, HM or not. That is, learning enemy weaknesses, and switching skills on the go.

Examples:
1. Using water builds against destroyers, combined with EOTN skills (vs destroyers).
2. Using fire skills against imps/ice golems.
3. Using earth wards + WAH, water shields when fighting fire bosses / fire areas. (usually equipped on hero).
4. Using a varierty of earth builds to keep enemies kd'd continuously in HM.
5. AP meteor shower nuker is still a great build for vanquishing/missions.

There is more than enough variety for ele. An ele does not necessarily need to be a destructive class. It should also function be a support class that enhances the enviromenment to to benefit the team. It must NEVER be a healing/protting class.

Sadly most people stick to fire, and use it in the wrong areas at the wrong times, and qq about damage being lower than melee. Learn to adapt or gtfo.

To end this, ER protting should be nerfed. It's a bad gimmick for bad players.

This is great - conceptually. It fails miserably because the elementalist is not sufficiently good at these things. We're not going to see powerhouse elementalist builds appear which ravage the enemy, and players pretending to be ele nukers really look like Cartman and Kyle playfighting.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

12 Jul 2010 at 14:39 - 94

Once again, good is relative. Yes, relative to something much more powerful, the damage isn't "good", but I see enough of them in my HM pugs, some even doing basic fire builds that aren't too different than what I did pre-Factions.

Not saying it doesn't need a buff, it needs a big overhaul, but, eles are still widely used and accepted.

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

12 Jul 2010 at 15:04 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

ER is vastly overpowered and needs to be nerfed, but that's entirely political decision.

And this thread will be full of:

1. "I want to keep using my overpowered build there's nothing wrong with it"
2. Noobs who don't see why ER is overpowered and how much

3. People who say "keep ER because ele is otherwise crap in HM" - but ER should be nerfed regardless. Mesmer were total and utter crap in PvE and as a result they didn't have super-overpowered build to compensate for that. Overpowered skills need to be nerfed - that's it. I do sympathize with this groupation.

You forgot group 4. People that don't give a crap and just [email protected] silly complaints.

Voodoo Rage

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sacramento, CA

Geezers

R/

12 Jul 2010 at 15:31 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Examples:
1. Using water builds against destroyers, combined with EOTN skills (vs destroyers).
2. Using fire skills against imps/ice golems.
3. Using earth wards + WAH, water shields when fighting fire bosses / fire areas. (usually equipped on hero).
4. Using a varierty of earth builds to keep enemies kd'd continuously in HM.
5. AP meteor shower nuker is still a great build for vanquishing/missions.

I think this should really be the key to the role of elemental damage in the game. All monsters should have specific vulnerabilities against certain types of elemental damage and certain resistance to others. If I throw water on a destroyer, it should damage it. If I throw fire at something made of ice, it should melt. I also think the elementalist should be the squishiest of all the classes, maybe having the same vulnerabilities (while wielding fire, you are susceptible to water... etc....). I'd like to the the profession one where you really take the time to set up your skill bar very specific to whatever area you are about to enter (and end up being the major damage dealer in the party).

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

12 Jul 2010 at 15:36 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Examples:
1. Using water builds against destroyers, combined with EOTN skills (vs destroyers).
2. Using fire skills against imps/ice golems.
3. Using earth wards + WAH, water shields when fighting fire bosses / fire areas. (usually equipped on hero).
4. Using a varierty of earth builds to keep enemies kd'd continuously in HM.
5. AP meteor shower nuker is still a great build for vanquishing/missions.

Even when those things are true, people just discard them in favor of other things.
Because even if they work, they do not work better than those other things.

When I go Zaishen MAgnus' oozy ass, I bring a Ward Against Harm water build, and it does wonders.
When I go against destroyers, I bring an air build to spread blindness,cracked armor and weakness amonst them, and it works like a charm.
Not a single time I bring earth, because its skills are either too slow, or deal too much exhaustion, or doesn't work at all as they should. Wards offer little protection agaisnt HM monsters. Enchantmens can be used only in the caster, and the rest are PBAoE or need to be too close to the enemy.
an Earth build is NM-only. You can be good with it in HM, but you can be good in HM even with beast mastery, smiting or dervish builds without mysticism, and we all know they are utter crap compared with most of what other professions can do.

And don't get me sptarted with Assassin's promise... geez... if an elementalist has to use an elite skill from other profession to be effective, there's something very wrong. Other skills it's completely normal, but the elite should be of its professions. If it was in my hands, only a profession could equip its elites, or have huge downsides when equipping other profession's elites, like 50% of its effects or -6 to its attribute for that skill or something like that.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

12 Jul 2010 at 20:31 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Ether Renewal is the Shadow Form of Elementalists: Overpowered.

Providing insane protection and heals, it's the must have spell for PvE.

Looking at previous nerfs, Ursan, Shadowform and 600 monks should Ether Renewal be nerfed?

You've totally lost this argument in the first 2 sentences.

I'm not seeing any 8 ER eles running around; speed clearing anything or requesting everyone and everything to be a primary Ele. There is a big difference between what ursan, sf, 600/smite, etc were (or still are) and what ER is.

A very much unjustified complaint imo. It's just an elite like any other that is actually getting some usage. Put otherwise it's nothing more or less OP than Discord.

PS: Actually it's worse than discord, because heroes can't (ab)use it.

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

12 Jul 2010 at 23:05 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

You've totally lost this argument in the first 2 sentences.

I'm not seeing any 8 ER eles running around; speed clearing anything or requesting everyone and everything to be a primary Ele. There is a big difference between what ursan, sf, 600/smite, etc were (or still are) and what ER is.

A very much unjustified complaint imo. It's just an elite like any other that is actually getting some usage. Put otherwise it's nothing more or less OP than Discord.

PS: Actually it's worse than discord, because heroes can't (ab)use it.

On top of that, I'd hardly say it's "must-have". Just because we use it all the time in our teams, doesn't mean everyone else does.

NerfHerder

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2010

13 Jul 2010 at 01:19 - 100

I think the last WiK quest "Battle for Lions Arch" is a perfect example of how ER infuser inparticular was useful but not OP. Everyone wanted a Monk for that quest. However, after day 2 Monks became scarce. When I couldnt find a Monk, one of my guildies used the ER bonding route, it went ok but not as well as if we had a real Monk. Later, when it was my Eles's turn for the quest we got two Eles and couldnt find a Monk. So I went ER infuser(Hero build variant), like before we did well, but I would have prefered my Monk instead. And I never saw "GLF ER Infuser".

Even though, ER infuser is used in like 2 SC's. It doesnt take away from the Monks profession. If your really serious about balance in this game, you should be complaining about an Elementalists subpar damage, Dervishs being outclassed with his native weapon, uselessness of Dervish enchantments and Primary attribute, Paragons ONE build, Rangers being left behind the powercreep, and Shadow Form still being the type of skill Anet says they dont want in thier game even after they Nerfbuff'd it. Yes, I said Nerfbuff'd.

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

13 Jul 2010 at 01:44 - 101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

PS: Actually it's worse than discord, because heroes can't (ab)use it.

Wrong. Hero use ER very, very well in infuse/protter builds.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

13 Jul 2010 at 02:10 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Wrong. Hero use ER very, very well in infuse/protter builds.

When they reapply it. A problem I ran into was when it went down, Sousuke didn't care about energy, and spammed spells until it was gone. In the heat of battle he didn't reapply ER, and we almost died. I wouldn't call it that great if I have to help manage it.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

13 Jul 2010 at 02:48 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Wrong. Hero use ER very, very well in infuse/protter builds.

Heroes does not know how to reserve/use Glyph of Swiftness before using ER, meaning that you have to constantly monitor the hero and activate ER yourself. Frankly, I'd rather spend my concentration microing heroes out of deadly AoE. Heroes also does not know how to STOP when their ER gets stripped, nor do they know that reapplying ER is first priority when it expires.

NerfHerder

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2010

13 Jul 2010 at 02:53 - 104

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Wrong. Hero use ER very, very well in infuse/protter builds.

Im going to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Without microing, heros can let you down at the wrong time when using ER. Personally, id rather have a N/Rt or Monk hero heal me. I would only trust a hero with orders cuz, if that goes down it wont kill you.

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

13 Jul 2010 at 13:44 - 105

I guess im just going to have to disagree with you all then. I have been using an ER protter since i started playing again a couple months ago and he never leaves my team. Although he doesn't know to use ER with Glyph of swiftness, i have found that this doesn't really matter as he tends to keep up ER as often as possible and with a 20% enchanting mod, he keeps it up almost all the time. I would never, ever substitute a rit, necro, or monk for him. Here is what i use:

Ether Renewal
Infuse Health
Shield Guardian/Shield of Absorption
Spirit Bond
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Aura of Restoration
Life Attunement (microed onto him at the beginning of an area)

Like i said, i have extensively used this build on my zhed and vanquished many, many areas with him. Never have i had energy problems, and the only microing i did was placing life attunement on him at the beginning of areas.

Riot Narita

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

13 Jul 2010 at 14:28 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Wrong. Hero use ER very, very well in infuse/protter builds.

The guy said heroes can't abuse it, and I'd say he was right. Yes, heroes can use an ER build "very well" (though personally I'd call them "OK", no more)... but they can't do anything like the kind of abuse that a human is capable of - tons of bonds, glyph to maintain ER, spell spam to maintain their own health/energy.

I echo what Xiaquin said. I've had my ER heroes make a royal f***up many times, failing to maintain/recast ER... and sometimes failing to infuse even when they have plenty of time/energy/health/ER to do it. I can't rely on an ER hero alone, for heals.

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

13 Jul 2010 at 14:35 - 107

I too used to use an almost identical build, but if you can't beat a mob down in 24 seconds, you'll be dead the second after ER ends. It required more patience and pulling, I think.

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

13 Jul 2010 at 14:48 - 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Im going to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Without microing, heros can let you down at the wrong time when using ER. Personally, id rather have a N/Rt or Monk hero heal me. I would only trust a hero with orders cuz, if that goes down it wont kill you.

Derp? Heroes run the ER Prot build really, really well if you run the right one. Don't give the hero dismiss condition, RoF, or GoS (nothing they're terrible with) and they are spectacular with the build.

And try an enchanting spear and an offhand. For some reason, the AI seems to use the skills more appropriately with a caster spear (I've tested this countless times and have no idea why it works).

While getting Guardian of Cantha, Elona, and Tyria I monitored Vekk's energy and I never once saw him slip below 50%.

EDIT: This build is what I'm talking about. It even notes not to use Dismiss Condition on heroes. They spam it like crazy. They also spam infuse on minions, btw, but I've still never seen my Vekk has problems with energy.

NerfHerder

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2010

13 Jul 2010 at 17:19 - 109

Ok, its not the crappy hero AI, it was the build I was using. You win.

Regardless of how AI uses ER, it wont change my mind. ER should stay until Eles get something better, and even then it should only be tweaked and not smiters boon'd.

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

13 Jul 2010 at 17:37 - 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Ok, its not the crappy hero AI, it was the build I was using. You win.

Regardless of how AI uses ER, it wont change my mind. ER should stay until Eles get something better, and even then it should only be tweaked and not smiters boon'd.

I agree. To be honest, even from a hero standpoint, it's still not insanely overpowered. Heroes can't do the bonds as well as players, heroes can't GoS, heroes can't use GDW, etc.

The skill should definitely stick around. Of course, unless Anet plans on giving Eles other options.

Voodoo Rage

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sacramento, CA

Geezers

R/

13 Jul 2010 at 17:43 - 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Ok, its not the crappy hero AI, it was the build I was using. You win.

Lol, needs more Frenzy

Paux

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jul 2010

Mo/E

15 Jul 2010 at 20:03 - 112

Ether Renewal is fine.

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

16 Jul 2010 at 01:54 - 113

This is one of the few cases where an OP skill is OK. An ER-Prot hero is a strong and capable hero, and one that actually allow EVERYONE to play their respective class....as their class, rather than wonky strategies or overloaded defenses. This is advantageous particularly since the 'other' healer class, monks, are HEAVILY energy restricted due to PvP mathematical balance. That's always been the problem with Monk heroes, energy, and that's why they don't make good HM healers. They aren't balanced for it. Notice ER is PvE only? They are making it up to us.

The ER-Prot doesn't have this problem at all but still doesn't make you invulnerable. You can still die, even if his Blue Bar is full. In HM and on Master Difficulty quests, ERs are perfect. Not too strong, not too weak.

In short: ER is an enabling skill, not an abusive one.