Dealing with inexperienced players in PvP

I'm sure everyone has had the annoyance of being in PVP and have a team mate that doesn't know what they are doing and end up getting the team wiped. Maybe if those PVP arenas that are in the towns (Kamadan, Ascalon, Yak's Bend, etc) be requirements or some kind of learning for PVP before a player's character is allowed to do PVP so they get some experience and know what they are doing. Where they have to win like 5 PVP matches in one of these arenas mentioned above before they can enter RA, JQ, FA, etc. or better yet, make it a requirement that the character has to have completed the Zaishen Challenge and/or won at least 5 Elite Zaishen matches.
I think this will help stop the verbal abuse in the PVP areas towards the inexperienced players.

Forcing players to do matches at max level 10 or 15 with no elite skills is not going to prepare them for the later arenas, and I predict there will be just as much hating in those matches as all the other PvP formats.

Same thing with the Zaishen Challenge or Elite Zaishen, except failure there is all the more embarrassing and rage inducing since you're only fighting pitiful AI and outdated builds.

I'm not meaning max lvl of 10 or 15, I'm talking about changing those arenas or actually making new arenas for players that are ready for pvp i.e. lvl 20 with elites etc. I'm talking about players that make a pvp only character and players that want to pvp with a pve character. Maybe having it made as a mission or quest to do pvp battles in order to make it to the regular pvp arenas. Just like Hero's Ascent where you have to battle your way to the Hall of Heros. If they were to make it then they will be able to pvp in the regular arenas.

QQ more please

also....where is stuff about weapon display in HoM? or was that just put in the title to make us click it?

So, basically, you're saying that you want players to jump through a series of hoops with their PvE characters in order for them to PvP?

I'll change the thread title if the OP will provide me with one, or if I get a clear understanding of what the suggestion is here.

You used to have to win a certain number of matches in RA in a row to unlock TA and then HA if I remember correctly.

Sorry about the title, the original thread was about the weapon displays in the HoM but was removed because of a previous thread about the same thing. The title should be: "Inexperienced players in PVP" or something like that. I'll let Shyne Hawke make a good title as I can't think of one.

And no I'm not suggesting that players have to jump through hoops in order to do pvp. I am saying that maybe there should be a quest for pve/pvp players who want to pvp and haven't yet been to a pvp arena to learn pvp before entering a regular pvp arena. Like they have to win 5 matches in a beginners arena or something. It would really help and maybe help with the bot situation also.

can a dedicated pve player comment here.

The main reason I don't do pvp is that there isn't really a learning part to the game, or at least no obvious one.

I see current pvp as entering an arena with a slingshot and meeting a main battle tank with helicopter support
Sure sometimes I would have a good match other times its a massacre for one side.

There should be a system in place where some areas are for anyone to play no matter how incompetent while others as the op suggested are for those who have proven skills and know what they are doing.

Not a question of jumping through hoops but the present system doesn't seem to work that well so a rethink about all pvp may be just what's needed.

How you arrange such a league system which provides for both a nursery area and a premier division where everyone can have fun and receive a decent challenge to match their abilities is for the pvp community to decide.

I totally agree with the OP. Anymore, there are two groups of players in Guild Wars. The die hard players who can't stop playing after 3+ years and the totally new players. I think that new players should have to go through a "BASIC TRAINING" before they just dive into pvp. I don't care if the new players are doing fort aspenwood, jade quarry or random arenas. New players need to understand the concept of what it means to be a viable player and a contributing team member before they get flamed for being a newb.
Anymore, the starter arena which is RA is an elitist arena with all the serious syncers. Also, Anet has made it clear that they will do noting to fix the syncing in RA even though it is clearly match manipulation. I sent many pictures of full team syncs to anet and they basically said its ok to sync RA. So, I don't think it is too much to ask for a new arena for new players to learn to play. Set it up like the Zashien Elite, beat the missions and gain access to the arenas. Let's face it though, Anet treats GW like a dead game. They could care less if anyone quits or joins at this point in time. Therefore, nothing will change, nothing will be done to make a dismal game better at this point in time. The game is a red headed step child.
I agree with the OP, but anet could care less about the remaining player base and any new players is just extra pocket change to Anet.

/SIGNED

Maybe my memory is bad. Did they do away with forcing players to do the training arena and Zaishen Challenge before entering PvP? Or was that never even a requirement?

What you seem to be wanting is something like the Zaishen Challenge, which certainly exists, but probably doesn't get much attention these days. I'm not sure how timeless the builds are in there, but they definitely aren't very new.

Lol, Zaishen Challenge pretty much gets trapped only, not much to learn from that. The arena idea seems a lot more appealing.

Yo peeps, I have a couple of problems with this thread. Firstly, I kinda thought the point of random arenas was exactly this, to allow ANYONE to enter with any build and get a match! Ye that does mean u end up with bad teams some of the time, but surely just play ur best and have fun! If u want organised teams were u can pick who I play with that's why they have codex ha and gvg. If ur bored of bad teams and losing in ra go do some real pvp and pick people and win! If u still lose there, then maybe it's ur fault u keep losing in ra? Also, about syncers, lol, just lol. U need to chill and relax and stop wasting ur time emailing abet, srsly, more important things in life. Go find 3 friends if u have them And sync urself. Anet only actually meant gvg champ farming and fixing tournys (rawr) when they talked about match manipulation! Srsly no one butt u cares about ra syncing.
Qq thread ftl

also... Winning 5 matches is never gonna teach someone to be good, when I was glad 3 I still sucked balls, srsly lookin back I was rubbish so u ain't gonna make people good by making them win matches unless it's over 9000.

I hate PvP and its players already enough, forcing me to do things isn't going to make me PvP or PvP better.

I kind of agree with Maverick's not-so-great-on-spelling post. Random arena is just that... random. There already is a certain element of luck needed if you want to win there. RA sort of exists as a place where anyone, no matter what build they are running, can play in some games just for fun. Formats where you choose teams (HA and GvG) are the ones that i have always considered should be the "competitive" formats (aka those free of bad players or players wishing to run non-meta builds). Rather than creating a new arena. I think it would be better for those who actually care about "an annoying or bad teammate" to move to HA and those who are playing casually or just for fun stick with the random formats.

Actually, im going to go ahead and take back what i said in my last couple of sentences. I would like an arena to come back - the team arenas. I would also like codex to become random arena format (in terms of team making). This way, PvP would have a nice even split - RA and CA for those who want to play PvP casually or just for fun and TA, HA, and GvG for those who want to play PvP competitively.

The ideal of the game may have been that we would play for fun but so many are playing for titles and rubbish to put in the hall of monuments that fun isn't a common commodity any longer.

To play any aspect of guild wars that involves other players be it pvp pve you must obey the rules.

The rules of course are to have the optimum build of skills weapons and armour and to come prepared to finish the assigned task in the shortest time then rinse and repeat.

Finding other players is hard enough for new players finding players who are just out for fun is almost impossible.

Also, most of the "inexperienced" players you are talking about aren't really inexperienced, they just refuse to use builds from pvx wiki.
I have people all the time tell me to uninstall the game until I get a "better" build. Yet, they are the ones that always die first. (and no, I don't have a griefer build thats designed to stay alive)

And then I wind up getting most of my team's kills cuz since my builds aren't from wiki, people can't pre-counter it by using the opposing build.
Yet, I'm somehow the "noob" that needs to uninstall.

It used to be 10 for RA, 4 for TA.

Ok, I know my spelling sucks, I'm typing on a iPhone which jut picks words and puts those in the place of the word u tried to type! This thread is jut a collection of people who take RA too srsly and really need to Go tombz or gvg!! Gremlin, people do not have to take the best skills and complete everything as fast as humanly possible, what they really need to do in a game is have fun! And btw, u will be amazed at how fast pvp titles
come when u relax and start playing for fun! Pz

Why are you guys complaining about RA? Anyone can join it, thats part of the fuking name..RANDOM arenas. It's the whole point of it.

Having a training area or whatever isn't going to make anyone better at HA/GvG, only participating in these formats will do that. And suggesting people go play JQ/FA/FA/RA to improve is just laughable, have you seen how bad the people are that play in those formats.

I do, however, think there should be some sort of training maps for HA. A lot of the times maps are skipped like Forgotten Shrines or the Vault and if newer players make it passed UW and get a skip to these maps they won't know what the hell to do. You could have it where you play v NPCs on each map and not really people that you'd just get annihilated against.

It's a good idea to include some more newbie-learning stuff before letting them head right into RA but i think you're going at this the wrong way.

I've been in lots of teams in RA that have made 25 wins and had people in them running absolutely crap bars like Endure Pain wammos and MM necros as well as having no basic grasp of PvP (kiting, shieldset, etc).
So if these people can get to 25 wins in RA they will have no problems just routinely getting past Zaishen Challenge\Elite or whatever it is you want to throw at them.

Anyone who was around back then remembers that when you made a new PvP character there used to be some bars that were suggested to you. Looking back they were pretty crap but at this point in time in the game where innovation and creativity are pretty much out of the window and everyone who knows their PvP is running the same bars, you might as well make a big pop-up window when a new PvP character is created, suggesting effective meta bars and also including some usage and equipment tips. This is important since just making it clear for the hordes of newbies and PvE-players who enter RA that they should not use sup runes in most cases and that carrying a shieldset is necessary will make RA 10 times better.

The problem right now as i see it is that there isn't really any sort of casual PvP for the serious PvP community and players. AB and RA are just full of horrible people and are very frustrating for PvP'ers. Having casual PvP where you're not forced to play with terrible players who run terrible bars would go a very long way into decreasing the amount of flaming and abuse that newbies get in RA, which you said is one of the reasons you suggested this, simply because those PvP'ers wouldn't feel RA is the only casual PvP they have and they'd know they can go somewhere else once RA gets too annoying. The answer was always TA and ANet removed it and introduced a dead arena in it's place, if ANet would have actually tried to liven TA up a bit things would have been better, right now, "casual PvP" for PvP'ers means randomway groups in HA or Byob's in GvG and neither is actually casual. Give PvP'ers some casual PvP and then newbies will be able to learn their stuff in RA without getting massacred or flamed.

It's funny how the people that say the worst things about anet's balancing abilities don't even PvP.

Keep whacking ai monsters all day you clearly have an excuse to bitch all day.

I think anet is a bit too soft on the newbie pvpers. When TA was still around there was the match set up system where if you win some amount of plays in RA, you get to go against people from TA. I assume it was like that so newbies can use RA as just a practice without getting flamed by team mates BEFORE the match. They should have made it more like it's serious business and force the players to shape up like juveniles in boot camp. I don't think RA is doing that much justice because it does more to piss off the experienced player than force the idealism of pvp into the newbie's head.

wow... i seriously can't tell if you are joking or not...
FYI, this is a game...

Who the hell cares about the idealism of PvP in the lower end pvp. Leave that stuff for the competitive high end aspects of PvP. By the very nature of being random, RA should remain as an arena for casual PvPers or those who dont care about learning your "idealisms", and just want to have some fun.

In my opinion, there should be pvp formats for both competitive PvPers who care about winning, titles, and that stuff, and there should be pvp formats for casual players who like to play with w/e builds and just for fun. RA and a randomized CA would be good for casual players. Competitive players could get a reinstituted TA and HA/GvG.

I really take to the boot camp analogy because that's exactly what happens a lot of the time.

Your flamed bullied ranted at insulted abused but not by some training sergeant with a view to sending you into battle as prepared as possible.

Your abused by some nomark who has more skill than you and likes throwing his or her weight around.

Its a game, people sometimes want to just have fun without being made to feel small.

Beat them by all means but keep the mental abuse to yourself.

Ummm dude, I hurd the vault was super super hard map... I'm guessing u meant ante chamber cos the vault is just a holding area! Like nothing happens in it, u just wait for halls timer. Also, stupid idea havin training area vs npcs. Firstly it wouldn't improe anyone at all, and secondly, what makes teams better at these maps is NOT knowing some super special tactic but being GOOD and adapting to how their opponeneta try to play the maps and put manouvering them and generally being better, that's fact of guild wars and the nice thing about those maps is that gimicky builds lose on these maps to better players!

+1

I'm not much of a PvP'er, only because I'm not very good and would prefer a low-pressure venue in which to learn. As said, JQ/FA/AB are crappy places to learn (though they're the only ones I do, because I can "blend in"). I used to do some RA before it became a Glad-farm, but now I'm scared to death to set foot in there. I know I'd be flamed like crazy. It'd be nice to have an arena that's title-free...though I have my doubts that such a place would be populated. So many players just treat GW like a huge title grind. But maybe Balthazar Faction would be enough to play for, without turning people into raving lunatics...?

Saying a training area to help newer players learn what to do on rarely seen maps is stupid, is just retarded. Ofc the better teams win on these maps, but those better teams have more exp on those maps. Your whole post basically says better players win at GW when that isn't the point OP was making. Newer players have to start somewhere, and they need pointers and help so they don't fail constantly and eventually become better.

If it bothers you so much, instead of bitching, why don't you offer to help people/give advice.

If they ignore/insult you (lol noob, I know my flare + kinetic armor build is unstoppable), you can just ignore them.
Every once in a while though, you will find a genuinely deccent person who wants to get better and appreciates your advice

If 90% of r0-r3 groups in HA would not hold hands (ball), just spam skills without watching the field for deaths and would just use common sense (knowing how to counter cap..etc) they would actually win alot of the times. <this statement holds true for at least 50% of the rest of the ranked grps in HA

Who cares? ME. RA is competitive by default, but too many players with attitudes as you've described ruin it for everyone. Random != balanced, and I think that RA should have some balance enforced by making every team have a healer [by checking for healing/prot attributes/skills in a player's skill bar]. Not learning idealisms means not caring to win, which as I already implied, ruins games! HA and GvG should not be the only formats that have this level of balance and competitiveness. Your post is evidently inclined to this notion. I think that making RA much like TA, except for keeping the random assembly of teams, is best for our only truly active 4v4 arena left [Codex Arena = dead]. It'd be best if players learned whats best in builds instead of just throw random skills and charge right in as they currently do in RA. They often don't get past the first couple matches unless they get "carried" by the better players who have supreme utility and damage.

Ok then... it is for players like you that i am suggestion reinstating TA. That way those who think players who dont care to win "ruin games" can play in the competitive formats and those who dont care so much and just want to have fun can play in the lower end formats. I dont care if you want to play with your ideologies and playstyles but I dont want you ruining my fun. Is it such a big deal for competitive players to have an arena and non-competitive or casual players to stick to the low-end PvP?

If you derive "fun" from losing to constant and consistently winning teams of 1-2 monks and heavy dpsers, that's your affliction. I choose what's best for the majority, not the few [you]. It is the few that burden good players by taking Orison of healing, or seven arbitrary attack skills that cost energy and have short recharges on warriors, or flare/meteor rangers with two preparations, a flatbow and Barrage, or necromancers with domination/inspiration spells of 2+ second recharge, or Paragons... ... or dervishes... ... or monks with daggers... ... They all cause the good players grief, and as a result some of those affected players either ragequit the arena, the game entirely, or simply choose to give RAers a taste of their own medicine [trolling with running/stalling/shadowstepping/AotL+ die builds/armorless builds/resign-denying/report-abusing/etc.].

Okay everyone, please do not get off topic. The suggestion wasn't just for any certain PVP arena like RA or HA or whatever. I am suggesting for all PVP. I remember I had to earn my way to HA and TA etc. I had to do the Zmissions and now players do not have to. But I can say from my own experience thru failure how to play at PVP better. And now I do PVP regularly and rarely die. But I am tired of going to RA and can't win more than one match at a time because my team mates want to go 1v1 with the tanks or dervs or whatever instead of going after the monk first. It's been a very long time since I have had a good team in RA. In HA all your teammates want you to run certain builds that they like and most of the time the build sux, has no energy management etc. and if you won't run their build then they kick you from the team and if you're in a non PVP guild you have to rely on joining teams in HA in order to do HA and you still get bad teams no matter how leet they try to claim they are. And using PVXWiki builds? If you have to use builds from PVX then maybe you should learn how to make a build and maybe you're not as experienced as you think you are. I'm guilty of calling players noobs so I kind of know of the frustration of inexperienced PVP players. I don't flame players with noob constantly but every now and then someone may do something so idiotic and illogical that I'm like WTF are you doing noob? I've even been banned for 3 days for making comments to a person like that.

In RA, unless you have Whirling Axe, Forceful Blow, etc., and/or count the monk's balanced stance [hoping he doesn't have Dolyaks as well], you're not going to be able to kill the monk unless ofc you have a faceroll E-Wrack mesmer camping him and depleting his energy, or something as pressure-effective as it. I usually go for mesmers first, and maybe other squishies, because they sometimes don't carry block. I also camp on warriors to prevent them from knocking down my monk, so I knock-lock him for a while. It creates a false sense of security within the monk until I'm charged up enough to force the monk to waste his Bonettis, temp swap, then get back on him and hop he's also used his anti-kd so I can Dev Hammer + OB Smash him and win.

I'll say 90% of good builds are not on wiki. Wiki if anything should be used to give ideas of what composes a decent build and how a build should function in a certain arena [gvg-ra-ha].
Point being, new people need to learn a little before they dive in. I remember having to unlock HA and TA by doing certain things in other areas of the battle isles. I think it is beneficial to new players to know something before just winging any pvp in GW. Otherwise, the game experience the new players have will more than likely be poorer because of player harassment and lack of success which can lead to frustration and rage quitting. I want to see new players succeed, not get flamed and quit a game before they get a good grasp on it.

You cant help everyone, I can't help everyone...enough said. Making a training ground or "boot camp" other than Zelite would be a good idea.

Way to blow what i said completely out of proportion. Its hilarious how often, someone will suggest not running the meta builds for fun and others automatically assume they would like to run flare/firestorm monks or dagger-wielding mesmers. I certainly hope you had fun with your exaggerations.

Anyway... What I was suggestion was seperate arenas like there used to be. TA could be where competitive players go to try to win and random formats like RA (and ideally a randomized CA) could be where non-competitive players go to have fun (and before you start... fun doesnt necessarily mean playing a bloodspike build on a paragon...). Now I'll ask you once again, how is that a bad thing? You can stick to your competitive formats and ignore all the "noobs" (aka the noncompetitive people) that you wish.

IDEA: Why not create a guild and alliance to TEACH these newbies so you can actually have a decent game just pick people up and ask them "you want to join a guild pvp-based that has practices? It helped improve my skill it might help improve yours."

Better idea even yet; why don't the people here, when they do RA and see a newb, inform said newb of Pvxwiki and suggest they play some meta builds until they are confident enough to make their own build changes.
Trial and Error; that's how you learned, that's how I learned, and it's how everyone in every game has learned how to play.
As for synchers and hardcore Pvp'ers with low ping connections; don't play RA.
I don't anymore. I started RA/TA back when monks an assassins both had great playability. Now assassins are gimmick builds and monks have a giant kickme sign.

If they're motivated, they'll find their own way of getting into PvP. If they're not, it'll just be an even bigger barrier to add more requirements.