Danger...topk and farming...

Utterly ridiculous, I've been reporting REAL bots and was told time and again that support couldnt find evidence to ban them.

Yup, I heard that it has happened to other people now. There are 1 or 2 people who are in similiar situations like myself who didn't use a bot and got banned in TOPK. I have a friend of mine that against my advice has started to form TOPK tonight and someone else there was complaining of being banned like I was. The bad thing is that he hasn't had a response from Anet for a week.

Oh well.

I find it a bit ridiculous that macros that simplify manipulating the interface WHILE ATTENDED is treated as such. What's wrong with a programmable key that hits ; and then space very quickly, you are performing the action under your own power, the keyboard is just typing a few things for you but you still have to come up with the decision on that yourself, you still need to react to the environment around you.

Anet, please make a login announcement on WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE and WHAT ISN'T in clear plain english.

Attended non assisted
Programable key assisted
automated macros
fully aware bots.

Where is the line drawn?

The problem with allowing simple macros that perform multiple keystrokes comes when people start chaining complex skill chains and multiple weapon swaps into a single keystoke, it becomes an unfair advantage... attended or not is irrelevant.

Pretty hard for Anet to make a clear and concise list of what is and isn't allowed... and even if they did, someone would find a way to exploit it and then cry foul when they get slapped with a temp ban.

Nonsense.

A clear list would rule out whatever isn't clearly listed. BTW, we already have one: 3rd party programs that automate the game or portions of the game aren't allowed. Packet interception/manipulation isn't allowed. Bug exploit* is bannable offense. 3rd Party Programs are not supported and used at your own risk. That's as clear as they can get, you can't expect them to review every program

Each situation in this grey area must be reviewed separately and measures taken accordingly.



* "Bug" is often used by the playerbase as a derogative term to describe whichever behaviour of the game looks unattended, wrong or improper. "Bug" in EULAs is strictly a term to describe coding errors, not game/design flaws. Design flaws might lead to game exploits, which are usually fixed with no particular measure against the players, like by redesigning parts of the game, altering the environment or the scripting of missions, etc...

Yeah like people using macro's to play BB wars

QFT!

Some folks need to listen a little bit more than they flap their jaws.

Yes because people should shut up and stop flapping their jaws because Anet are always consistant and never spread misinformation in regards to their rules.

/sarcasm

Gray areas and 'Use at your own risk' does NOT make a clear and concise list of things that are and are not acceptable...

Yeah, and there also aren't any Mini Polar bears...

First response.

What I have written thus far:

I'd like to mention that there have been more people than myself that appear to have been inappropriately banned for third party programs/bots that we just do not have or have not run.

Since my macro that I use on my razer mouse is for running, I never used it in TOPK farming. So there was nothing that I had on my system active that was a 3rd party program other than mouse drivers and hardware drivers, which I really can't uninstall just for guildwars. I use my g13 for spreadsheet macro's for work related stuff as well.

I have had a lengthy discussion with several players and I applaud your aggressive stance against finding and removing bots, but I can assure you that you are banning legitimate players in the process. Your net or criteria for TOPK is too broad and getting innocent players.

On my computer, I have razer mouse and a logitech g13. My razer mouse has a macro for running if I need it, which obviously requires me to assess the situation to push the button. The macro is a simple dash and pious haste. My logitech g13, which is like the g15 keyboard, which doesn't have any macros that I have used on it recently, which had some buffing macros from heroes, but I haven't used it in a long time.

I really do feel that I have been wrongfully banned. I have not used _ANY_ bot whatsoever. The macro's that I have used require active imput from me and last less then a few seconds at most. I do not understand why I got banned. The account you banned was farming ectos in Tombs of the primeval kings. I am sure there are bots there, but I am not one of them.

I JUST started farming there 2 days ago. Look at my account, my items, I am a rule-following player. Please do not ban me for something that appears to be completely off base. Out of all the things I can think about, would be macro's and I have read the forums about them on multiple sites and the understanding is that simple macros that are require presence to start is permitted. The one macro I actively use is 3 keystrokes. Lasting less than a second.

I'm pretty sure I've seen mention of macros that perform more than a single action (ie chaining multiple skills, or tying weapon switching to skills) were on the shady side of that nebulous gray area... I think it might have been on Gail Gray's talk pages...

Either way, best of luck dealing with support, hope things work out well for you.

looking at my support ticket they added:

violation report.

So, I _THINK_ I was reported and probably have a screen short of me in TOPK running around like the other people farming at that time, which I'm sure some were bots.

Just kinda sad to think going to lunch with my family, being afk (on my anniversary day, 8 years married), to come back and get a you were disconnected for inappropriate behavior and finding yourself banned rather whimsically.

It will be even more sad if I don't get unbanned.

LOL.

Crossing my fingers.

No offence, hopefully you dont.

These macros clearly give you the unfair advantage that they warned about and that you agreed to not use. Anything that will allow you to make more than 1 action with a single keystroke is an unfair advantage by using external hardware.

Let's get a couple things clear.

1st and foremost, my "macros" were not even involved with farming in TOPK.

2nd if you think all macros beyond 1 key reassignment should be a PERMANENT ban-able offense, instead of a gray area issue, perhaps you should email support about it.

Light and Peace.

I will continue to email them in hopes I get unbanned. Maybe we could work together, and hopefully we will be able to convince them we're innocent. I just got another response now after another full-begging-please-explanation what has happened:

Hello Rok,

As previously explained we will not be reversing our decision. We will keep your account banned.

Regards,

GM Amaury
Guild Wars Customer Support

Maybe if we mention our names on our emails, maybe they will realise they made a mistake.

~Rokzor

Edit: They wouldn't even suggest me after I politely asked them if something can be done to work this out, like recommend a scanning program so I could delete this none-existing bot from my computer ... -.-

Macros have always been a no go in GW.

Sure it's a shade of grey, other MMO's allow or even promote macro use.

GW doesn't.....never has.

Stop whining.

I think they need to explain their decision making process and what they uncovered and the evidence they have.

I used to play a lot of starcraft before GW2 and in matches, we had weird clicks and things that you couldn't explain outside of using a maphack or something along those lines. But every once in a while even the best players had a few suspicious clicks time to time, but they didn't have a maphack.

The only thing I'm learning from all of this is:
1) Discussing macro's is like discussion politics and religious, should be avoided at all costs whenever possible .
2) Farming in general where there are any bots, is not a good idea. Not sure if there are raptor, vaettir bots also, but I am not going anywhere near those places, nor farming smites in UW, or ToPK. I'm going to stick to running and just doing missions/dungeons.

The quotes and posts from GM reponses do speak otherwise.

Horses for courses.

I've seen thread after thread, after thread, after thread, after thread, after thread, after thread, after thread, after thread, after thread, after thread, from squires whining about this issue.

Hardly rocket science.

Good luck to you I guess.

If I ever get my account back, I would never farm at popular places again. I'm satisfied with amount of gold and rare items that I have now. I would use them to buy myself Chaos Gloves and a new armor set to match them. That is if I will have a chance to log in into my account again... Then I would do missions and dungeons just as you said. I hope they realise they made a mistake. But there's one thing that bothers me. They said they can confirm that I was using an illegal 3rd party program (which I obviously did not).

~ Rokzor

I _NEED_ to know what the program is so 1) I feel that I was appropriately banned. 2) That the permanent aspect of the ban offense makes sense. I do not understand how I can be permanently banned for a 3rd party program that you state I have. I have no BOT. I have no 3rd party program that's installed that interacts with Guildwars directly. There is no such program on my computer.

Futhermore, this computer is brand new as of april/may of this year. My daughter has my old computer. So I need to know what program we're talking about here because, quite frankly, I have no clue what it could be.

If at least, I had an idea of what you had banned me for in regards to the 3rd party program, I could remove it. Although, I have to admit I am dumbfounded because I don't have a 3rd party program installed.

I respectfully request the following:
1) Education about what program was involved.
2) Proof of such program
3) Re-evaluation of my ban from being permanent to temporary.

Look, I'm sure you've seen my account. I have what? 1600 hours playing? I'm relatively new. 8 months into the game. I don't have a lot of stuff. I don't have many titles. I have friends on there and I like to run more than anything else now. I've only completed the game fully once. My account isn't the profile for a botter or 3rd program user. It makes no sense.

The evidence I have, says otherwise.

Even if you banned me permanently, if I decided to buy another account for myself and restart. What do I uninstall? I don't know because I have NOTHING that is inappropriate.

Please educate me and don't punish me harshly (permanent ban) for something that I really don't understand. That isn't professional, courteous, or respectful. If I decide to continue playing this game with my wife and daughter, I need to protect them and myself from having this happen again. I can't do that without your help.

Thanks...

@Light and Peace:

You got contacted by the same GM as I did. Gm Amaury. I tried to convince him in every way possible but nothing seems to work.
So, should we work together or? I would really like to use my account again. It's just horrible to be banned for nothing.
~ Rokzor
Edit: I've seen that you can put together a very well written text. If this helps you to get unbanned, I would much appreciate it if you could say a good word about me. Thanks.

I would think everyone would like to know what that third party program was. It obviously wasn't the macro, it isn't a bot. I don't have anything else running actively. I have multilunch which was commented directly by gw here to be legal. So I really don't know what 3rd party program I have that has created the violation.

I don't have a bot, it's not the macros, then what is it?

I would also like to know. It's just that they don't provide me with good enough answers. All I get is the same repeating: you we're using illegal programs so that's why you're banned. When I asked them to tell me which program could have caused this so I could remove it, they said that they hae to keep some information classified. So, we don't even get a proof?

~ Rokzor

Stop being wrong.




@ Light And Peace

Support won't tell you what software you were using that caused the infringement as a matter of policy, partially so as not to undermine their bot catching efforts... and, the software used to set up macros on your keyboard IS third party software, so yes they might be referring to that.

I don't see how they can expect anyone to play the game again or pay again for another account if they can provide us the information we need.

I really don't have any clue of what program was the offending one. Other than usual antivirii, dell crapware, couple messengers, dell damon tools, winamp, I don't have anything else running, other than my drivers for my g13 and razer mouse. I do have a razer keyboard but it doesn't have macros programmed into it.

I have to make a post here

1. The matter is between you and Anet not the forums as its speculation on what or what not you used.

2. I understand Anet not giving you the name? you said you would remove it

therefore you are saying in fact you have something added to GW.

3. So to myself to keep posting here to either drum up support ect on your case is really irelavant , nomatter what is posted on this forum.

4. All I can add to this is support is your contact thats where the replies you make should be directed. If they choose not to reply and perm ban you then the matter is closed.

lol, you should've just said you were wrongfully banned, now they know you use macro's.
If they'd ever think macro's are illegal they would tell you then and keep the ban permanent. Otherwise they might unban you. Now you're screwed imho.

They can't tell you what tools or programs were causing you to be banned because they don't know.

The reason why you have gotten banned for this is simply because of the way you were playing. (If you were even there at all when this happened and I suspect not.)
Your account was giving behavioural signs of being a bot, they stepped in and shut it down. Other than that they need no evidence because you signed the EULA.

However a friend of mine got banned once for verbal abuse, he shot an email to customer support, they told him exactly why it happened and gave an excerpt of what he said. I think you have been less than dutiful with the truth to be honest. You should be contacting support and not a fan-forum.

That's the point of this situation.

1) it's not the macros.
2) I don't have a bot.

I think the community needs to know the process and situation. It isn't just me. There's at least one other person here, and a least another in the game that I know of that this has happened.

Clearly, this process is more important than for myself. It has to do with all players who farm, farm well, and might be mistaken for a bot or for whatever reason a 3rd party program <- whatever that might be.

This has a lot more to do than just me vs arenanet. I am telling you macro's are not the issue, so that leaves the 3rd party program -> my drivers for my mouse -> can't uninstall that. My drivers/program from my G13? LOL, I use my G13 for spreadsheet macro's (99 percent of the time) - can't uninstall that either, lol.

I mean there's something there right? What does this mean for the community is more than my fight, it's explanation for something that doesn't make sense. If and when this ever happens to you, you will have precedence here at this point and be able to refer to it.

one of my builds requires me to spam a skill and I usually end up bashing the keyboard as fast as I can - can I use a 'rapid fire' macro on my mouse for that button? simply to spam that button over and over, or would that be 'illegal'?

Yes, it is. Read Gaile's numerous, numerous posts about macros.

It's 1 macro, in PVE, so no it's not the macro. I read the response. My macro falls under the EULA and their discription.

Judging by Gaile's official responses... I'd guess it is bannable... one click to activate the macro and it keeps spamming a skill, that means it could keep activating the skill while you're away from the computer... bannable in PvE-land.

If it's in PvP, instantly bannable for the advantage it gives you.

In short, I wouldn't risk it.

Just so everyone here is aware (and hopefully less ignorant for it), I've talked to several people and there was apparently a pretty large ban of ToPK bots recently.

He probably got swept up in them.

He shouldn't have even mentioned the macros, because I have a feeling that he hardly used them and only used them to run, which isn't against any rules. He didn't have an unfair advantage, and let's remember that the game allows you to set up macros internally...

no its PvE, and I still have to keep the button pressed, as soon as I let go it stops, its just like hammering a key over and over but does less damage to the keyboard

I too don't know what could have caused this. I think we were mistakenly thought of bots. But the real problem is to prove your innocence. I've read a lot of forums and threads about this, and in many cases they admitted they made a mistake and unbanned the account. The people that were banned also received the error 045 and they also didn't use any illegal programs. GMs made a mistake, and a big one too.
If they can't provide us with a good enough explanation of what really happened, then even if I would want to buy another key, I couldn't because they could just ban it again for no reason.

And yes, this is also a public matter because it could affect anyone of you. If you would be in trouble you would also be searching for answers and helpful threads everywhere.

~Rokzor

The macro's aren't the issue. The email he sent really appears to have been answering that issue as a generic response in regards to my keyboard. He clearly stated 3rd party program, which I think as I think about it more must be about having a bot -> which I don't.

I also think the dev/gm team wouldn't permanently ban me for a macro grey area usage, I'm talk to some guild members that have been cited for macro's and been banned for 3 days.

So right now, I think it's a bot issue that they think I have or am. What's weird is that I was LEARNING to farm ToPK and I was making errors all the time, so I just don't understand how this occured. If they watch the log, 1 out 4 attempts was probably botched by hitting wrong keys (lol, probably needed a macro - hehehe - half to laugh about it, or i just get pissed off).

Well, some bots mess up too. They get in the wrong position, get bodyblocked, spam skills at the wrong time, etc. But they also know how to merch items and re-enter zones, so that's probably what they thought you were doing.

Ahh, okay...um that seem intuitive to playing. A person needs to know when to sell and re-enter zones. LOL.

I hope that isn't the criteria, or they'll be inappropriately banning a lot more people than just me.