Hello all. I have a suggestion.
I think that shields should provide NO additional armor unless the requirement is met. So, a player with nothing in a Shield Attribute would receive 0 Armor as opposed to 8 armor. My reason for this is two fold. The first reason and it's purely selfish; it will make low requirement shields worth more. The second and it has everything to do with game play; is that it will help in certain PvP formats to speed up matches. You want the armor bonus? You have to put in the points.
Ultimately I would like for every weapon/shield/focus in the game to offer no stat bonuses unless the requirement is met. For example, if a Caster has a Spear with a 10% furious mod and +5 energy, the only way they would receive these bonuses is if they had 9 in spear mastery for a req. 9 spear. same would go for swords/shields/focus items etc.
We all complain about balance and how hard it is to achieve, why not add some balance this way? It doesn't involve any skill changes but does change equipment in a way that would make the game better in my opinion.
EDIT: I see that some people like this and some don't. Fair enough. What if you got the half armor bonus with half the points poured into the requirement and it would round up? So, for example, a req 9 Tactics Shield would require you to raise Tactics to 5 in order to get half the armor. I don't like this, but there should be a compromise.
Shields And What They Do
jazilla
Mia Clemons
bad suggestion. what about those characters that are < level 20? they might not meet the req on their weapon/scepter/shields/etc. Plus its not a huge issue in pvp. +8 armor for monks is not an issue, its standard pvp. . Plus your talking about something thats purely virtual. In real world application, a shield would still protect against incoming arrows, even if just a little; therefore, +8 armor is understandable for someone not using more attr points in it.
/not signed
/not signed
jazilla
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Originally Posted by Mia Clemons
bad suggestion. what about those characters that are < level 20? they might not meet the req on their weapon/scepter/shields/etc. Plus its not a huge issue in pvp. +8 armor for monks is not an issue, its standard pvp.
/not signed |
Lanier
I dont know... In some ways i really like this idea. It sure would be nice to see an end to those monks running around with tormented shields and voltaic spears. However, I really like slower paced games more than faster paced games, so im going to have to /notsign.
Shayne Hawke
I would only support this if all PvP equipment could be manufactured at any requirement level at or below nine and the max damage range, armor, or energy given was toned down to fit.
Captain Krompdown
I'm all for this and have been for a long time. Characters should only be able to use equipment that's appropriate to their class and attribute. There's no way that a caster with 0 strength should be able to pick up a shield that requires 13 str and get anything out of it. They shouldn't even be able to equip it. They're simply not manly enough.
Masmar
Bad idea.
I'll put it into perspective.
I've had no training with a shield, but if somebody tried to straight up hit me with a sword id be able to block them if it wasnt to complicated or advanced, same as in game, where you don't get the full out of the shield unless you meet the "training" requirement
I'll put it into perspective.
I've had no training with a shield, but if somebody tried to straight up hit me with a sword id be able to block them if it wasnt to complicated or advanced, same as in game, where you don't get the full out of the shield unless you meet the "training" requirement
jazilla
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Originally Posted by Masmar
Bad idea.
I'll put it into perspective. I've had no training with a shield, but if somebody tried to straight up hit me with a sword id be able to block them if it wasnt to complicated or advanced, same as in game, where you don't get the full out of the shield unless you meet the "training" requirement |
Desert Rose
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Originally Posted by jazilla
We all complain about balance and how hard it is to achieve, why not add some balance this way?
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Currently this mechanic allows the use of a defensive set and rewards player that switch between weapon sets.
jazilla
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Originally Posted by Desert Rose
How does it improve or add balance?
Currently this mechanic allows the use of a defensive set and rewards player that switch between weapon sets. |
Masmar
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Originally Posted by jazilla
and by this logic would Shadow Form sins automatically know how to use a staff that they didn't meet the requirement of? Most of the time they are getting the 20% enchants benefit and energy benefit without having any points at all in them. I think this needs to change.
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Originally Posted by jazilla
but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.
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It adds depth to the game, makes it more interesting
End
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Originally Posted by jazilla
but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.
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fr.aodhan
As an approximation, the +8 armor from an unmodded shield is about a 13% reduction in damage. If you meet the requirement and get +16, there's a 24% reduction in damage. If you receive 100 damage (before the shield) and don't meet the requirement, you take 87 damage. If you have the attribute, you receive 76 damage. The qualified guy resisted 24 points, twice what the unqualified guy resisted, which makes sense in a certain way.
However, for spending the points, you take only 13% less damage than the guy who doesn't meet the requirements. This does seem really disproportionate. If I spend 8, 9, 10 points on an attribute, the skills should give me more than a 12% improvement over someone who uses the skills without paying into the attribute. If a Fire Magic 8 Flare did 87 damage but a Fire Magic 0 Flare did 76 damage, you might reasonably consider running Fire Magic 0 with points elsewhere - which is precisely the case here.
When I look at it this way, it's a little skewed. However, every monk in PvP pays dearly for who they are, even if it's not reflected in the numbers. Theory doesn't take into account the fact that the monks will need the shield more than those who are likely able to spec into its attribute.
However, for spending the points, you take only 13% less damage than the guy who doesn't meet the requirements. This does seem really disproportionate. If I spend 8, 9, 10 points on an attribute, the skills should give me more than a 12% improvement over someone who uses the skills without paying into the attribute. If a Fire Magic 8 Flare did 87 damage but a Fire Magic 0 Flare did 76 damage, you might reasonably consider running Fire Magic 0 with points elsewhere - which is precisely the case here.
When I look at it this way, it's a little skewed. However, every monk in PvP pays dearly for who they are, even if it's not reflected in the numbers. Theory doesn't take into account the fact that the monks will need the shield more than those who are likely able to spec into its attribute.
Desert Rose
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Originally Posted by jazilla
but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.
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If you're running around with a shield 24/7 you don't get the boni of a focus, and if you're running around with a focus 24/7 you don't get the boni of a shield; you have to switch accordingly to get the maximum benefit from both.
Astral_Nomad
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jazilla
Hello all. I have a suggestion.
I think that shields should provide NO additional armor unless the requirement is met. So, a player with nothing in a Shield Attribute would receive 0 Armor as opposed to 8 armor. My reason for this is two fold. The first reason and it's purely selfish; it will make low requirement shields worth more. The second and it has everything to do with game play; is that it will help in certain PvP formats to speed up matches. You want the armor bonus? You have to put in the points. Ultimately I would like for every weapon/shield/focus in the game to offer no stat bonuses unless the requirement is met. For example, if a Caster has a Spear with a 10% furious mod and +5 energy, the only way they would receive these bonuses is if they had 9 in spear mastery for a req. 9 spear. same would go for swords/shields/focus items etc. We all complain about balance and how hard it is to achieve, why not add some balance this way? It doesn't involve any skill changes but does change equipment in a way that would make the game better in my opinion. EDIT: I see that some people like this and some don't. Fair enough. What if you got the half armor bonus with half the points poured into the requirement and it would round up? So, for example, a req 9 Tactics Shield would require you to raise Tactics to 5 in order to get half the armor. I don't like this, but there should be a compromise. |
Karate Jesus
No. That's how everything in GW has worked....since forever.
Foci give some energy even if you don't meet the requirement, shields give some armor, etc.
It's always been that way and there's no reason to change it.
Foci give some energy even if you don't meet the requirement, shields give some armor, etc.
It's always been that way and there's no reason to change it.
lemming
Reducing midline armor by 13 would actually go a pretty long way in dealing with armor stacking.
Still doesn't do anything about monks though.
Still doesn't do anything about monks though.
Grumpy Bear
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Originally Posted by Lanier
I dont know... In some ways i really like this idea. It sure would be nice to see an end to those monks running around with tormented shields and voltaic spears. However, I really like slower paced games more than faster paced games, so im going to have to /notsign.
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On-topic: I fail to see how this will make the game any more balanced, in my opinion it only further imbalances it. Why should squishy profs be made even squishier (profs with 60 armour). When you're getting beat on by a war, why shouldn't you have some extra def against him without having to spend the att points? Why should a war have to spend the points so he can use a spear to build adren? Also going off your theory, anet would have to introduce staves for sin atts like Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes so they can use the enchantments they have in those attributes.
jazilla
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Originally Posted by fr.aodhan
As an approximation, the +8 armor from an unmodded shield is about a 13% reduction in damage. If you meet the requirement and get +16, there's a 24% reduction in damage. If you receive 100 damage (before the shield) and don't meet the requirement, you take 87 damage. If you have the attribute, you receive 76 damage. The qualified guy resisted 24 points, twice what the unqualified guy resisted, which makes sense in a certain way.
However, for spending the points, you take only 13% less damage than the guy who doesn't meet the requirements. This does seem really disproportionate. If I spend 8, 9, 10 points on an attribute, the skills should give me more than a 12% improvement over someone who uses the skills without paying into the attribute. If a Fire Magic 8 Flare did 87 damage but a Fire Magic 0 Flare did 76 damage, you might reasonably consider running Fire Magic 0 with points elsewhere - which is precisely the case here. When I look at it this way, it's a little skewed. However, every monk in PvP pays dearly for who they are, even if it's not reflected in the numbers. Theory doesn't take into account the fact that the monks will need the shield more than those who are likely able to spec into its attribute. |
SkekSister
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Originally Posted by jazilla
but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.
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I'd call that a fairly large sacrifice for what .. 8 armour points?
As said above, GW was designed this way. I don't think the change would benefit the game.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear
I don't see why it matters if monks have torm weps and voltaic spears. They are generally used for more than a way to show off epeen, seems to be jealously rather than a vailid point for an arguement.
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. Anyways... back on topic.
I still don't understand why a change like this would be necessary. Shield + Sword sets arnt exactly unhealthy for the game. They arn't causing balance issues and taking them away would just make pvp faster paced which is not something im for.
Spiritz
plz dont forget to add - when u use a weapon below req you do bugger all damage to a foe - wow im a sf sin who does 1 - 2 dmg with a staff against a lvl 20 foe in hm .
Where does it state that a non warrior hasnt the str to pick up a damn shield ?
i can probably hold and fire a bow - doubt it would hit target , i can probably get in a car and turn it on tho i cant drive.
Hell why not go a step further - as you seem to hate the idea of not being stuck to reqs why not make armor the same - fow warrior armor can only be worn if your say req 16 str .... nah i didnt think you would go for that - being stuck in crap looking armor coz you cant use the fow armor as your build wants tactics not strength.
Anet in their infinite wisdom somehow decided how certain off hands work - shields have a certain mod area and caster offhands same - but both are totally different in parts - shields give extra armor but nothing towards caster use and same for casters except a slight armor increase.
why not make offhands universally modable - maybe drop the shields armor and the offhands energy and have it so you have +ar mods for both , energy mods and so on and that way you choose how the shield works - be it as a shield or as an energy booster.Same with swords/wands/staves/scythes etc etc .
Btw grumpy - i own a vs spear which was a gift from my wife , i dont parade around with it as its just a weapon which i use , i dont parade around showing off what elite armors i have - if a guildie says "oh a vs spear" i just agree and leave it at that .. no bragging as its just a weapon and one that the public decided costs xxx plat.
A huge amount of gw players dont give a rats ass about how cool this armor is or that weapon is - all that went out years ago ( oooo fow armor you must be cool or ooo tormented shield ).
Where does it state that a non warrior hasnt the str to pick up a damn shield ?
i can probably hold and fire a bow - doubt it would hit target , i can probably get in a car and turn it on tho i cant drive.
Hell why not go a step further - as you seem to hate the idea of not being stuck to reqs why not make armor the same - fow warrior armor can only be worn if your say req 16 str .... nah i didnt think you would go for that - being stuck in crap looking armor coz you cant use the fow armor as your build wants tactics not strength.
Anet in their infinite wisdom somehow decided how certain off hands work - shields have a certain mod area and caster offhands same - but both are totally different in parts - shields give extra armor but nothing towards caster use and same for casters except a slight armor increase.
why not make offhands universally modable - maybe drop the shields armor and the offhands energy and have it so you have +ar mods for both , energy mods and so on and that way you choose how the shield works - be it as a shield or as an energy booster.Same with swords/wands/staves/scythes etc etc .
Btw grumpy - i own a vs spear which was a gift from my wife , i dont parade around with it as its just a weapon which i use , i dont parade around showing off what elite armors i have - if a guildie says "oh a vs spear" i just agree and leave it at that .. no bragging as its just a weapon and one that the public decided costs xxx plat.
A huge amount of gw players dont give a rats ass about how cool this armor is or that weapon is - all that went out years ago ( oooo fow armor you must be cool or ooo tormented shield ).
lemming
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear
On-topic: I fail to see how this will make the game any more balanced, in my opinion it only further imbalances it. Why should squishy profs be made even squishier (profs with 60 armour). When you're getting beat on by a war, why shouldn't you have some extra def against him without having to spend the att points? Why should a war have to spend the points so he can use a spear to build adren? Also going off your theory, anet would have to introduce staves for sin atts like Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes so they can use the enchantments they have in those attributes.
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jazilla
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear
I don't see why it matters if monks have torm weps and voltaic spears. They are generally used for more than a way to show off epeen, seems to be jealously rather than a vailid point for an arguement.
On-topic: I fail to see how this will make the game any more balanced, in my opinion it only further imbalances it. Why should squishy profs be made even squishier (profs with 60 armour). When you're getting beat on by a war, why shouldn't you have some extra def against him without having to spend the att points? Why should a war have to spend the points so he can use a spear to build adren? Also going off your theory, anet would have to introduce staves for sin atts like Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes so they can use the enchantments they have in those attributes. |
HawkofStorms
It's not like this is a bug or something.
This is how a.net planned and designed and balanced the game from the beginning.
/notsigned
You haven't actually shown how this change would benefit... anything. Change for the sake of change is meaningless
This is how a.net planned and designed and balanced the game from the beginning.
/notsigned
You haven't actually shown how this change would benefit... anything. Change for the sake of change is meaningless
lemming
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
This is how a.net planned and designed and balanced the game from the beginning.
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Really, if you know anything about GvG, it's not balanced very well around autoattacks being useless, and conventional wisdom is correct in suggesting that the game rewarded proper warrior play more when maximizing number of autoattack hits actually meant something.
jazilla
@HawkOfStorms:
this person summed it up perfectly:
if we get rid of the 8 armor that monks are getting using a shield or any class for that matter it fixes a lot of things. i also think having to put points in weapons helps too. a monk that uses adrenal stances is a perfect example. they shouldn't get the 10% spear head mod bonus if they don't meet the requirement to the weapon. why? they don't do any real damage with the weapon with no points in it, why should they get the adrenal bonus? why should they get the +5 energy or the 20% enchanting or +30 health? making players use the weapons that are intended for their builds would go a long way to making the game fall more in line with how it was designed to be played. I hope that sums up how i feel about the subject.
this person summed it up perfectly:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fr.aodhan
As an approximation, the +8 armor from an unmodded shield is about a 13% reduction in damage. If you meet the requirement and get +16, there's a 24% reduction in damage. If you receive 100 damage (before the shield) and don't meet the requirement, you take 87 damage. If you have the attribute, you receive 76 damage. The qualified guy resisted 24 points, twice what the unqualified guy resisted, which makes sense in a certain way.
However, for spending the points, you take only 13% less damage than the guy who doesn't meet the requirements. This does seem really disproportionate. If I spend 8, 9, 10 points on an attribute, the skills should give me more than a 12% improvement over someone who uses the skills without paying into the attribute. If a Fire Magic 8 Flare did 87 damage but a Fire Magic 0 Flare did 76 damage, you might reasonably consider running Fire Magic 0 with points elsewhere - which is precisely the case here. When I look at it this way, it's a little skewed. However, every monk in PvP pays dearly for who they are, even if it's not reflected in the numbers. Theory doesn't take into account the fact that the monks will need the shield more than those who are likely able to spec into its attribute. |
Moonstalker
I don't like the idea.
It's been this way for over 5 years, I don't think it needs a change now.
It's been this way for over 5 years, I don't think it needs a change now.
Johny bravo
I think this has been said already but attribute points show you have a certain level of competence in an particular area. In this case we are talking about shields. In the real world if I had a shield and didn't know how to effectively wield it I would still be able to use it to some extent. So it makes sense the way they have it now, no need to change it
Luminarus
I know that if you dont meet the req of a weapon its damage reverts to that of a starter weapon. However, correct me if im wrong but a starter shield isnt 8 armor. I think thats the issue here, it should follow all other weapons and revert to starter which iirc is 3. Thus hitting that break point for the shieds req would give a significant bonus.
Unless im wrong with the req thing...
Unless im wrong with the req thing...
Desert Rose
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Originally Posted by Luminarus
I know that if you dont meet the req of a weapon its damage reverts to that of a starter weapon. However, correct me if im wrong but a starter shield isnt 8 armor. I think thats the issue here, it should follow all other weapons and revert to starter which iirc is 3. Thus hitting that break point for the shieds req would give a significant bonus.
Unless im wrong with the req thing... |
More
gremlin
If GW had realistic armour rules it would be the right way to go but it doesn't.
Shields would protect against attacks from the front and or left side since all GW characters are right handed and bigger shields would cover more body area.
Shields in GW are not really armour they are a focus item giving protection in a magical way much as Runes and inscriptions do.
The rules that go for all the other focus items should apply.
Shields would protect against attacks from the front and or left side since all GW characters are right handed and bigger shields would cover more body area.
Shields in GW are not really armour they are a focus item giving protection in a magical way much as Runes and inscriptions do.
The rules that go for all the other focus items should apply.
Wish Swiftdeath
This doesn't have any effect on the armor of monks in GvG since anyone serious has 7/15 or 8/16 shields.
Shieldswapping is an important skill to have since when your whole team does it, effectively it can take alot of pressure off your team and monks especially. Shieldswapping is another way in which good teams can differentiate themselves from the bad, the game should reward skillful play and encourage people to get better, not dumb down the game so that people can just camp their 40/40 sets.
Shieldswapping is an important skill to have since when your whole team does it, effectively it can take alot of pressure off your team and monks especially. Shieldswapping is another way in which good teams can differentiate themselves from the bad, the game should reward skillful play and encourage people to get better, not dumb down the game so that people can just camp their 40/40 sets.
Desert Rose
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Originally Posted by Swahnee
That's what wiki says:
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MithranArkanere
I'd rather have them give the full armor (16) when both the requirement is met and the customization is done.
1. It doesn't affect PvP characters and created items.
2. It gives a reason to customize them and remove new ones from the market.
That way, if you don't cutomize it, and do not meet the requirement, you only get the stats from the mod. If you either meet the requirement or customize, but not both, you only get 8 armor.
And if you have both, you are unnafected, and shields behave normally.
Same for focy: 12energy, 6, and none.
1. It doesn't affect PvP characters and created items.
2. It gives a reason to customize them and remove new ones from the market.
That way, if you don't cutomize it, and do not meet the requirement, you only get the stats from the mod. If you either meet the requirement or customize, but not both, you only get 8 armor.
And if you have both, you are unnafected, and shields behave normally.
Same for focy: 12energy, 6, and none.
jazilla
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
I'd rather have them give the full armor (16) when both the requirement is met and the customization is done.
1. It doesn't affect PvP characters and created items. 2. It gives a reason to customize them and remove new ones from the market. That way, if you don't cutomize it, and do not meet the requirement, you only get the stats from the mod. If you either meet the requirement or customize, but not both, you only get 8 armor. And if you have both, you are unnafected, and shields behave normally. Same for focy: 12energy, 6, and none. |
The Drunkard
The only thing that would come from this is that wintergreen shields, and to a lesser extent peppermint shilds would inflate in price dramatically.
/notsigned
/notsigned
jazilla
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
The only thing that would come from this is that wintergreen shields, and to a lesser extent peppermint shilds would inflate in price dramatically.
/notsigned |
PahaLukki
I agree with this. But with slightly different idea of it.
So you have a shield that needs 13 strength... but you got 0, so you get... 0 defense for your lack of strength... err or lack of motivation (meh ugly shield). But what if you have 7 strength? Then you just get 7/13 of the defense the shield gives.. How's that? Directly in proportion. Why not?
So you have a shield that needs 13 strength... but you got 0, so you get... 0 defense for your lack of strength... err or lack of motivation (meh ugly shield). But what if you have 7 strength? Then you just get 7/13 of the defense the shield gives.. How's that? Directly in proportion. Why not?
Morphy
That would make Wintergreen Weapons even more awesome.