Skill Update Speculation

^That made me lol.

On the other hand nerfing Ap wont nerf two man discord way with 6 heroes, so the nerf might not mean to target discordway at all

As far as party healing goes:
*Haven't hard any specifics on heal party other than it's going out the window
*Healing burst is supposed to be getting a minor buff (bumping up the single target & aoe heals to around 150 & 50-60 respectively)

Why? Axe has the exact same problem that Scythe does, a large damage range. Landing critical hits takes the high end of that range and multiplies it by 1.414 giving you a much more consistent damage output. All the crying that goes on is about relative DPS, not intangibles or survivability.

And like I stated, I was unaware that the proposed VoR and HP nerfs were only for PvP since it was not stated previous to my first post in this thread. Its probably best for you to not comment if you arnt going to read the entirety of my post. It looks really stupid, and its probably best for you to go back to my previous post and see that I already mentioned this beneath the section that you quoted.

I was responding to you saying this.

In response to lemming saying this.


You also seem extremely out of the loop on what this little argument is about, so you might want to quit before you get even farther behind.

If talking about max damage transisting into criticals, please note that axe has max dmg of 28 and scythe max dmg of 41. I see a difference here.
But the biggest issue is that scythe hits three targets at once, making autoattack itself enough to have max energy all the time for critscythe sin, being able to maintain all the stances/enchantments he uses and spam attacks on recharge.
Also the general usefulness is different. Majority of axe skills that inflict condition are conditional themselves - inflict xyz if target has zaq (that's what irritates me the most in para's spear skills, by the way). Just compare Eviscerate and Wounding Strike or even Reaper's Sweep - include their spammability for a critscythe sin, keep in mind that they hit 3 targets, and so on.
And just take a look at Farmer's Scythe and what does it mean in PvE when used on a nicely balled up group.

Wat? First off, 100b/MoP is the problem, not AP. You only need one MoP per mob, so something like Glyph of Renewal would work in the majority of areas. Second, Manlyway isn't even the most OP thing in GW. DwG, Keystone spike, even Fragway, would easily replace Manlyway, and in some areas (DoA) already have, if it were nerfed.

And that's the biggest point: There is SO MUCH that is broken in PvE, it would literally take an overhaul to get it back to being somewhat balanced. Obviously, considering ANet is dragging their feet so much about an honestly very easy buff to Dervs, there is no way in hell that will happen.

Yup.

Here's the thing: ER ele's don't break the game. Sure, they have stronger potential support abilities than monks, but you don't see them in any farming builds at all, which means they're basically only reserved to pugs and such. It's great on paper, but the fact that it's not breaking anything in the game (i.e. hurting others' profits, like farming is doing), means they will not and should not nerf it.

Except monsters rarely actually have good builds, and most skills are only OP in combination with others. Nerfing all but a very certain few skills would do little to make monsters easier, and probably a lot more to make players worse.

No, I'm simply noting how inflated a weapon with a wide damage range can be if you are landing ~60% critical hits and not comparing Scythe to Axe. Hitting multiple targets with Scythe is inconsistent especially over 2 targets. That's why for practical use in an attack spammer build for DPS they do not run Farmer's Scythe. It's basically restricted to the fastest activating attack skills and/or the shortest recharges. In other words, it's not an accident that Mystic/Eremites are run in the Scythe bars. If you were to do the same thing with Axe it would probably feature Cyclone/Swift (Power Attack on War).

Now I'm curious. You imply there is a leaker? Because as you may know, ANET cracks down on these kinds of things

Wasn't this thread about PvP skill changes? Stated by the OP?

Anyways

Exactly, ER is like a 'better' monk and nothing more. Other nerfs were don't because players were not allowed into groups/guilds/etc because of XXX skill.

ER isn't exactly a super easy build to run either, only a handful of players can play it amazingly while others completely suck at it. Requiring a lot of skill.

It's not hurting other players, it's just overpowered. Ironic huh?

__________________________________________________ ___________

The main problem here is, wtf are we going to do about hexway? Limit amount of hexes on a single person? This here, seems really hard to nerf.

Without the player bar being what it is, the setup is pathetic compared to what you could otherwise run.
The defense and offense isn't amazing. What it is, is compressed.


Nobody complains because Warriors and Assassins don't generally use an Axe in PvE. The Warrior has the advantage of having access to three weapon masteries and an inherent 3 second duration on knockdowns (making running a hammer bar on anything but a Warrior questionable).
A smaller point is the narrower damage ranges on the other weapons, which weaken the lead extra crits give.

Wait.. AoHM needs buffed? this is news haha

looks interesting though

Just remove the damage type conversion so that it doesn't anti-synergize with the party support from Blood and Curses.

On the topic of AP, I'd rather not see it nerfed. A large part of the mess that is GW skill balance is the result of a history of Izzy trying to nerf things indirectly and causing collateral damage worse than the problem he "fixed." If you see manlyway as a problem, nerf perma (for real this time). If you see discordway as a problem, nerf discord. Always go for the root cause, otherwise you just make a worse mess.

Just some random stuff, I'm not going to quote people because it'd take too long.

Axes on a 'Sin are bad because the only thing axes really have going for them is through using Warrior's Endurance to fuel Cyclone + Whirlwind + Power Attack spam. Sure, you could use crits for energy management, but it wouldn't be as consistent. Plus, the 40 armor-affected damage you get from a crit really is not that great, and armor penetration plus 14-16 Axe Mastery will probably make up for it. And people hardly even run WE Axe in the first place, because it's outclassed by, you guessed it, scythes.

People don't use Farmer's Scythe partly because it is conditional, but mostly because Mystic/Eremites provides a built-in IAS, which is crucial for the slow attack speed of scythes.

That buff looks good, except probably a lot overkill. I have a feeling it's gonna get abused to hell by farming and such, because scythes will definitely be rediculously OP if even half of that stuff is done. Should be interesting...

Zodiac, about 99.5% of the nerfs in PvE have been because they affected people from getting into farming groups, or just created a broken method of farming. ER has little to no effect on farming, thus under ANet's current PvE balance policy, it's not gonna get a nerf. And besides, it's still a lot more fragile than a regular monk, and like you've said, it does require a decent amount of skill to play. You also hardly ever seen anyone playing an ER, like, ever. If ANet sends a nerf to ER, I'll be damn pissed because there are so many more broken things than that (Panic, daggers, scythes, SPIRITS, soul reaping, DwG, etc. etc.).

If AoHM stops converting to holy damage, and scythes get any kind of buff whatsoever, scythes will easily surpass daggers (if they hadn't already) as being the most broken weapon ever in GW, by a huge margin.

Oh, and when are we getting our 7-hero teams?

Agreed.
Panic is pretty OP as well, mobs love to patrol in a ball, 1 panic on an unsuspecting mob = GG. Most freaking powerful... skill, stopping skills plus attacks, non-scatter AoE interrupts and AoE hex.

I have no clue... Hey Anet, here is how to change the line of coding!

Old line:
If X amount of player heroes = 3 -> Disable Add to party Button
New line:
If X amount of player heroes = party size limit -> Disable Add to party Button

Done it for you Anet, no charge, except for max hero, glad, gamer, commander, codex and Zaishen titles, my own tonic, mini pet plus access to Guild Wars 2 alpha testing and Guild Wars 2 beta testing.

I agree with you. However, where in my post did I say that the only solution is a dervish buff? Honestly, I think a nerf to other scythe users would be a better solution, but we all know that's never going to happen.

Also, just because you don't care about something doesn't make it unimportant. I don't care about GvG, for example, but that doesn't mean I don't think Anet shouldn't devote resources to it.


Well, "good" is a relative term. Dervishes are better at their job than elementalists are at theirs, but by that logic the paragon needs buffs more than either of them. And if you ignore all other nukers, elementalists become good at their job (just like dervs). Both classes are in the same boat, except the elementalist has a fallback position in ER. The dervish has no such backup role. How easy or difficult these things are to remedy is beyond the scope of my previous post on the matter.

For the record, I agree that your ideas would do a world of good; in fact, I once suggested that exact same HM change, and still have the burn scars to prove it.

Wel you might be right with this, I never think this far couse I just play a game.
I hate SC's so I'm one of those 1 of 50 people that has just 1 ecto every two
weeks
But as you clear out. SF is still the centre of everything. So ok get a other fix
on this one. And sure there wil be other builds, but probably not that
strong/fast as they would use SF. Isn't it SF that is being used to ball the
foe's for the Glaive builds and what ive heard with the MoP, if this is still around.

But as I cleard out. I'm not in for SC's and there for I do like my PvE only skills as they are.
With random builds they are so much fun cous you can create all sorts of builds which otherwise wouldn't be possible.
For example, I run a bow build on my Necro with 3 ranger hero companions.
This I can make rather strong and is a fun thing to see. sure you can say
Hey but that was not intended when they started GW. but than again we are
over 5 years away now.
Must we care so much about overrated skills in the PvE world. And I think
whenever the ecto price will be hammerd. There will follow a other material
that will be not that easy farmable. (maybe ruby's)

Nop. balance PvP, leave PvE alone

Your argument is basically the same one farmers used to defend SF pre-nerf. They essentially said "if I want to play that way, who cares?"

The problem is, it's not all about you.

Even if we ignore the economy (wanna know why nothing that drops has any value? It's because they've all been farmed into worthlessness by overpowered builds!), the fact remains that overpowered builds remove all purpose in playing underpowered ones (we can ignore the "because it's fun" argument because that can be used to justify anything, including builds that outright grief your own team). If the only practical difference between build A and build B is that build A does 50 more dps, then why ever play build B? After all, any build can be "fun", so why not just always use build A when you want to win? There is no reason. Build A's overpoweredness lowers the effective build diversity of the game and makes build B worthless by comparison.

RE: PvP (from the little I've played in the last 6 months, plus obs, plus knowing what I was talking about at one point):

Sins get destroyed by midline, but midline got nerfed into the ground, so now sins get roll their face on the keyboard and train someone for 28 minutes. Not that I particularly like sins, but isn't the problem that X physical can train your Monks for 28 minutes without anything you can do about it? Would it be any better if it was a thumper or cripslash or whatever other nonsense people can train Monks with?

Part of that is also how shutdown and party pressure defense has been removed in favor of spike defense, particularly in the stances (short durations, short cooldowns); there isn't anything you need to stop before you can just pressure a team down now, while the things that stop classical spikes are more or less unstoppable now.


Hexes have always been this ugly beast that'll rear its head to punish metagames that can't threaten legitimate 5/3 or 4/4 splits. A lot of this is on the current specialized backline; the only Monk that operates reasonably well independently is the Word Monk, which makes it really hard if not impossible to be strong in more than one place. Monks are built this way because the skillset demands it; Patient and Word do not play well with others, and as awful as the Healer's Boon Monk is you simply have no choice but to run it, or die.

Of course hexes have changed to make the problem worse; in particular the damage hexes are vicious. In old hex builds the hexes tended to junk everyone up so that no one did anything ever, while degen gradually ground down the backline; now the hexes just straight up kill you, significantly shortening the clock.


The Healer's Boon Monk is awful. Simply an awful character. It's utterly helpless, needs to be babysat all the time, and honestly can't even run a flag much if things get ugly because it destroys his energy. But I don't think you have any choice but to run it, because there are no alternatives and if you don't have something that can pump parties like mad you'll just die.

I don't even think the character needs to be nerfed; it's a terrible character that you don't want to run. What you do need is some sort of non-terrible character that can provide enough party healing that you don't autolose to all the garbage that you can't stop from dealing damage now. But I don't know what that looks like; there just aren't a lot of party heals to make some other Monk do it, and Ritualists were very dependent upon the old Victory or Death to be a powerful character; that and pretty much every single Rit skill that did anything got hammered.

At the same time, if you wreck the Healer's Boon guy and don't provide an adequate replacement, I would not be surprised if the metagame slid back to 4 Monks to stay alive. Which is a really dangerous place to be; because as soon as it stops being 'we need 3.5 Monks so we need to hybridize something' and starts being 'we need 4 Monks', then the equilibrium flips over and everyone just starts running iway. Not to mention that the metagame sucks in the meantime because everyone has 4 Monks, so it's very difficult to use disruption and everyone is pushed into pumping damage because of it.


Re: PvE

The PvP/PvE split was taken as an excuse to flood PvE with absurdly broken skills, an excuse that was not wasted. Fixing it would be a huge undertaking and would likely piss off a huge portion of the remaining player base. I'd suggest just adding some more hideously broken stuff so that no one feels left out of the party.

Shadow Form is comical. I can't really put it any other way. Take a step back, no, take several steps back from the little details and take a wide angle view. Is this really what you had in mind?

Dervish is kinda a funny case. I think it's clearly the 3rd best profession in the game, but the two ahead of it are strictly better and can do everything that it can do plus a whole lot more. So it feels like an inferior class, even though it's still miles ahead of everything else. The other classes do fill valuable support roles, after all, that Dervishes can't.

Healing Burst will probably suffer the same fate as that of many over-buffed skills that later get "Smiter's Boon'd" if it proves too good [sadly]. E.Surge needs to be nerfed, and possibly E.Burn. Mind Wrack could also use a slight nerf [skill recharge-wise at least]. I think Overload should be reverted, and the base damage should be low while the conditional damage should be higher to reward skillful usage. Same thing for Unnatural Signet and Spiritual Pain. B.Surge and B.Flash should also be nerfed to the point where only skillful timing is rewarded [i.e.: blind lasts 0...3 seconds *by default*, and --->If target was attacking, blind duration is doubled]. Recharge on Whirlwind/Teinai should be extended to 12 seconds, and Lightning Javelin's recharge should also be extended to at least 8 seconds. I know these skills aren't currently seeing usage in the meta, but they have so much potential, and if players wake up and actually start to use these spells, they can become super-irksome later down the road because of their OP'd utility and potential.

I hope they buff Dervishes well, but not too well as to invoke another Smiter's Booning", thus making them far worse-off than they were before their buffages.

I thought the next skill update was pvp btw. That's waht I remember but seems like I was way wrong.
I still fail to see why some people think discord needs to be fixed. That it is being used by many in combination with broken skills is something else imo.

You've misunderstood what I meant by "care".
What I mean is, right now, it isn't an important issue. The character works fine, he can kill shit and his power level is fine - right now he should not be touched and resources should not be wasted on him.

But one big difference !!!!! I no it is not about me. And I wouldn't care less
if SF could not be used anymore... No I say, leave those PvE only skills alone.
It's PvP what needs balance. And as I sayd... I don't farm I don'd do SC's.
So... And who in earth only want to use only build A... if that was the case
I would visit PvX, Which I don't...

A big differnece in what I say comparing to you ( if I understand you right)
Is.. I say, I dont care about NF, but leave the PvE only skills alone.
They are a choice not a obligation to use. So no It is not only about me.
If it where up to you... is nerf the ^$*#^$#^ PvE skills so nobody has any
use of them. Than yo wouldn't have a choice

Seldom has so many words been used to say so little. Basically you could have just said "I don't understand what you're saying, but I disagree". Obviously your perception is not up to par with your eloquent writing skills.

I love how speculation is asked for when OP implies he has seen leaks to what is actually going to happen....what is the point of this again?

That's because I seldom write or speak English. But I'm honored if you goin to
be my spokesmen.

After seeing how well you deal with sarcasm I'll be your spokesmen any time. Great attitude, I tip my hat to you good sir.

Thank you, considered it done

/backontopic

I still disagree with reaper with no name

ER eles are not used in farming? I always thought that SC is a kind of farming.
Besides, even in balanced groups having an ER ele is much more useful than having a second monk.

Obviously you like the ring this has to it or you wouldn't have used the exact same argument in the great Shadow Form debate. It was wrong then and it's still wrong now. The fact that Dervishes don't have anything special to offer in terms of party role is why they are sidelined not this metric of DPS that keeps popping up. If you won't take to heart what others keep telling you then you should probably still pay attention to Ensign, he knows what the hell he is talking about.

^ this.

Just to remind everyone, this thread is about speculating the future skill updates, not suggesting what they should be.

As far as I'm aware, there is no talk of discord or SF being changed.

How would you rank the classes in terms of overall effectiveness? And by what criteria?

I tend to think in terms of "ability to play the entire PvE game" -- the PvE qualifier in place because I don't play PvP anymore. My criteria is: How effectively can I play the class with heroes or people in all areas of the game?

I only have time for a few classes, and I'd order what I play -- in terms fo effectiveness -- as follows: Ritualist, Necromancer, Ranger, Mesmer, Dervish.

In order of time spent playing, however, the order is: Ranger, Ritualist, Necromancer, Mesmer, Dervish. The Rit may be more "effective", but the ranger is more FUN.

Rangers could definitely use some sort of boost, since my ranger does a only third of the damage my Rit does. I can do a steady 75-90 DPS with a standard Spirit Spam on my Rit (boring build, BTW), while my ranger can do no better than 40-45 DPS, no matter what build I use. On the other hand, the Ranger can spike targets and has more control over her damage than does the Rit; spirits tend to be very random in their targeting.

So effectiveness is hard to gauge. I like playing my Ranger because I enjoy the player/pet dynamic, and I feel I have more direct control over the fight; the Rit simply does more damage.

Note that I Vanquish/HM with both Rit and Ranger, though the Rit usually "feels" easier.

In my opinion, the problem with HM is ridiculous enemy armor. The Rit's killing power is not diminished (much) by HM, since spirits ignore armor. For most other classes, they lose significant damage simply because of armor. I often run Mesway with my Rit -- it's vastly overpowered because most of the damage ignores armor. IMHO, this is a core flaw in HM, and creates much of the "imbalance". Get rid of high armor, and instead increase health pools for HM enemies.

Nerfing AP to what you may assume be something along the lines of "AP is disabled for x seconds" or whatever, is just an attempt at preventing PvE skill abuse.

If PvE skills cannot be abused, players will be slightly less-inclined to party with eachother, making the 7-hero party setup even more inviting.

FoWsc MoP bar doesn't even use AP either, so... What else can it be fixing?

If your PvP update predictions come true based on your sources KJ...I am gonna start buying all sorts of Dervish stuff now

Make sure and check the dates on those. The derv update is "supposedly" set to be done before Christmas, and that's just based on rumor and various sources. It's not 100%, and Anet is known for last minute changes.

A lot of those changes could be PvE-only; however, I doubt it. Splitting PvE/PvP skills further convolutes the client which has been proven to degrade it. I think they're avoiding splitting skills as much as possible.

There are a lot of different things you can do in end-game PvE; Guardian/Vanquish, speed clears, farming. It's a totally non-scientific weighting of all of these.

My personal list would be something like:

1. Assassin: Shadow Form is lol. Tier-2 AoHM Scythe (good scythe, but no SY!). Good non-scythe damage with SY!

2. Warrior: Hundred Blades lol. Top tier AoHM Scythe (good scythe, SY!). Top tier non-scythe SY! and damage.

3. Dervish. Tier-2 AoHM Scythe (ok scythe, with SY!)

4. Necromancer. Top tier AP (MoP lol?). Minions. Soul Reaping powered support (weapons, smiting, Orders if your melee isn't using scythes. Great versatility as a support character.

5. Ritualist. Signet of Spirits (and so many other spirits!). Splinter Weapon. Lots of utility and reasonably versatile.

6. Elementalist. Ether Renewal lol. Ok AP.

7. Paragon. Good SY! with TNTF; can carry bad teams.

8. Mesmer. Has an AP build. Panic I guess.

9. Monk. Can cast Heal Party.

10. Ranger. I guess you can use a scythe?


So in rough order it's something like:

Shadow Form
AoHM Scythe
Instagib AoE bombs
Save Yourselves
Summoning a wall of trash mobs
Ether Renewal
Assassin's Promise

Everything else is garbage/filler tier. Only Assassin, Warrior, Necromancer, and Ritualist are strong and versatile. Dervish, Elementalist, and Paragon are one trick ponies but those tricks are really good. AP-shouts sneaks in at the bottom and is the only thing that makes nuke playable outside CCCCOMBO! farms. Everything else is too fair to matter much.

I can't believe Mesmer made 8th on your list.

Armor-ignoring damage, Panic, and PI apparently aren't high on your list


However, ranking any profession in GW is going to be based on opinion. I would say, though, that most people would probably place the Dervish, Paragon, and Ranger in their bottom half of PvE (and possibly the Ele, if they do HM).

All of that is off-topic, though.

Copypasta from Ensign.

1. Assassin: Shadow Form is lol. Tier-2 AoHM Scythe (good scythe, but no SY!). Good non-scythe damage with SY!

2. Warrior: Hundred Blades lol. Top tier AoHM Scythe (good scythe, SY!). Top tier non-scythe SY! and damage.

3. Dervish. Tier-2 AoHM Scythe (ok scythe, with SY!)

4. Ritualist. Spirit Spamming is broken. Splinter Weapon. Lots of utility and the second most versatile class. Likely the second best class for farming.

5. Necromancer. Top tier AP (MoP lol?). Minions. Soul Reaping powered support (weapons, smiting, Orders if your melee isn't using scythes. Best overall versatility of a profession, but can't match the outright damage and healing of human melees and monks, respectively. Almost anything a Necro can do can be done just about as well by a hero. Curses and Blood rely on melees.

6. Mesmer. Panic lol. PI lol. good AP, best class for all-caster teams. Great utility, good damage.

7. Monk. You gotta have one, pretty much. Worst prof for H/H though, and probably the worst prof for damage, besides maybe ele.

8. Paragon. Good SY! with TNTF; can carry bad teams.

9. Elementalist. Ether Renewal lol. Pretty much nothing else.

10. Ranger. Bows suck, anything they have (daggers, scythes, and spirits, basically), can be done by other prof's far more effectively.

Also, that post by Ensign earlier basically won the whole thread.

Panic is why Mesmer made it to 8th. You think Panic is better than Ether Renewal powering Prot Bond? I have no issues flipping Mesmer and Paragon, though respect Paragon for being able to singlehandedly carry mismatched garbage.

We're talking about player bars here, not hero bars. A player 'nuke' bar is going to be Assassin's Promise powering 3 PvE skills, and in the Necro's case Mark of Pain. The rest is filler. Necros have Soul Reaping, and Eles have the constantly recharging GLE to power everything on top of AP. Mesmers run dry spamming shouts, and really don't have a lot of strong spike skills or force multipliers to really maximize the AP.

If you aren't using AP, you're casting spells; sure, they ignore armor, but do 75 damage with a small AoE. In the meantime, melee is autoattacking twice as often and hitting twice as hard, plus buffs, plus skill damage, plus setting off splinter bombs, plus spamming Save Yourselves so no one ever dies.

Assassin's Promise with shouts is the only reason casters have any purpose other than healing or buffing melee, or summoning a ton of crap to wand things. Mesmers don't do that any better than other casters, and don't have another broken role, so they are low tier.

As for Dervishes - they autoattack in an AoE for 150, set off splinter bombs, and spam Save Yourselves. Why are they bad? They aren't. That's just all they can do, and Warriors do that better.

As noted by yourself, it's your personal list - aka your personal preference. Not the real usefulness of classes.
A class is as useful as the player rolling it. As it's build. As it's synergy with other chars/heroes present during the VQ/mission. There are builds that are severely broken and can achieve a lot (sin/war with scythe, SF in general, ER ele, spiritmancer...) but that's the problem of builds, not classes - and if we rank them, a more hollistic approach should be taken.
The reason why you ranked mes on 8th position and ranger as the last is that you a) have never really played them; or b) couldn't play them on a decent level; or c) had less fun when playing them than when playing your top classes.
And that's fine, but just keep in mind that 'ranking classes by their general usefulness' is totally subjective, much because the classes are very complex and have wide variety of roles, skills, builds and options to run.

Because of that, i'd rather settle down to discussing broken mechanics and builds rather than classes. Dervishes are cool, but the two obvious problems are that a) other classes can do better with their primairy weapon; and b) their primairy attribute is generally useless (just as FC used to be, but got a tad buffed in PvE, and with that little Mindbender nerf it turned out quite ok).