Give GW some love and see everyone happy

Content added purely for an excuse to add yet another 3 sets of costumes to the store. Bugfixes or skillchanges? Nope. And no, what they released a few days back was hardly skill changes.

TL;DR i dont give 2 cents about 3 crappy new quests which you do twice and are done with. Id rather have them keep the game fresh and enjoyable. (skill updates, bug fixes, etc)

Just no.
You didn't buy the BMP, you got it by buying something in their store. And the timing was perfect since it was when GW:EN came out.

But if they start to charge us for an update (even if optional) then they would have to stop calling that a F2P game.

Costumes are purely aesthetic, you miss absolutely nothing by not buying them.

Even a boatload of botox wouldn't make this game look like it was new, because it's not.
Whatever they do people will always complain. Once they did an update where they only fixed a few bugs, well people complained about that. Not everyone can be happy.

But saying that they are not updating is a lie. (Maybe the aren't doing an update every weeks, but what do you want, dartboard skill updates ? that will just create a mass of QQ'ing everywhere because X monster got overpowered, Y build got OP'd, Z build got nerfed and then 2 weeks later, everything changes again).

You did pay for Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North, did you not? How is paying for the BMP any different? The BMP did have new areas, character art, and even voice acting while GW:B content seems to have a shortage of all of those elements. I personally have nothing against new quality content that costs money.

....wait, were you serious?

The buff everything updates were pretty dartboard, presumably took a long time to make and have been causing problems for ages now. We're getting the worst of two worlds.

What are you talking about? Myself and many others that I know ingame agree that skill updates make the game feel fresher. Adding new content... well adds new content, but having frequent skill updates makes the content that is already in the game fresher and more replayable.

No one has asked for a skill update every week, so dont exaggerate. We'd like them monthly, like they used to do before everyone was taken over to GW2's team. As for your second point, im sure that there will be more QQing about us not getting updates at all.

I think that the way anet updated the mesmer skills in May worked out really well (for PvE). They didnt overpower skills to the level of the obviously OP skills like SoS and AP, but they did enough changes to make a bunch of different mesmer builds equally viable, which is how all professions should be. My only suggestion for skill updates (in addition to having more frequent ones, which is a matter of moving more people to GW1's team) is that they mix the updates up and change some skills for all professions rather than just focusing on a ton of skills from one profession. For example, rather than seeing anet focus just on the dervishes in the next update, and then paragons in the next, I would rather them update some dervish skills and some paragon skills. If I were to compare (with percents) the number of skills updated in the upcoming skill update for each profession, a split of 35% dervish, 35% paragon, and then 30% the rest of the professions would be nice. This would give dervs and paragons some new toys to play with (which they desperately need) but would also give those who play other professions something new to be excited about.

The only thing I care for is that we're getting full Hero parties as soon as possible. We're not playing subscriptions, so I'm not going to expect or demand any updates. And any we do get, I'll be happy with.

I agree that not everyone can be happy. Yet more frequent updates, even missed and dartboard ones (but then fixed, or even reverted, in a follow-up after a few days), would at least bring a fresh breeze.
It feels like the Live Team or TK is somewhat afraid of doing updates because a) 'more testing has to be done'; and b) 'people will complain anyway, so why bother'. Whining because of a failed/small update is generally better for the playerbase and the game than whining of no updates at all (or updating n-teen skills after half a year).
I'm aware that ANet prefers not to tell anything unless it's almost ready, mostly tested, thought-through, etc etc. Yet i'm pretty sure that any info from Regina, even something like 'hey guys, 15 dervish skills are ready, we're working on 8~13 more skills before the update hits; we can't give any date yet, but stay tuned, it's coming!' would cut the whining down a lot. The players don't expect detailed notes, but ten short messages are better than one big prelim note for a week before the update itself.
I know that the players should be happy with what they get - and a big part of the playerbase is satisfied with the updates that come, just not their frequency / focus / general communication. Apart of a bunch of people who whine just to whine and criticise everything, just because they like to, i rather see those whinings as a rough sign that the players still care about Guild Wars 1. They enjoy it. They still want to play it, despite the game being over five years old. Most people talking about how HA is being neglected, how certain professions need some love, how gimmicks and SCs break the game - they do it because they like GW and, well, whining on the forums is all they can do, hoping their voice will be heard.
I understand why there's no list of people that form TK, but keeping this group so secret serves nothing either. I believe someone of the TK once said they never take opinions of the general playerbase into account when balancing and testing skills, so their own competence isn't affected - staying deaf on people pointing out what's wrong and sharing suggestions ain't the best way to go. More communication between TK and the playerbase might be enough to fix some part of the problem - again, i don't expect members of TK leaking out specific information, just some official statement 'we're halfway through the derv update and it's going to be nice' would be okay.

Main problems: lack of communication (though it's much better than two years ago), belief that the players expect detailed info and sharing something is pointless, not doing small updates (or doing small updates after months of silence...) but big ones and focused on only one aspect & small Live Team (and, mainly due to the sheer amount of testing that every update needs, seems like a small TK).

I didn't really pay for the BMP since I bought GW:EN in the online store.

$50 = a campaign, missions, quests, skills, lore, scenery.
$10 to add 5 new quests = transforming GW in a form of P2P.


I never said that skill updates were bad. I said that rushing a skill update can be bad.
Nor did I said "a skill update every week". Skills aren't the only thing that are in an update.
And that's what some don't realize, they say "I want updates like during the first years"...most of them were bugs fixing and AI updates. Then with new content they had to fix more bugs, the AI and change how some skills worked.
Now with almost nothing too big being added it's almost normal that updates aren't happening at the same frequency as before. Sure some bugs still exists (FA and JQ for example) but most of them are not things that require too much attention. Updating skills will also be nice, but like I said, it takes them time (although the fact that an update that was announced four months ago isn't still here, bothers me a tiny bit (tiny bit since I don't really play a dervish), just want to see the changes it will bring to PvP).

Hmm well I find Panic to be more useful than SoS.

I wouldn't be so sure.
Curiosity and hope are kind of worse : you answer their curiosity, so they think they can get more. Then with the little bit you gave, everyone starts interpreting it, everyone starts to have different expectation. And what's the result : thread complaining that the update isn't coming fast enough (already happening) and once the updates goes live, thread complaining that ANet lied because they were expecting something else.
ANet wants to be able to modify something at the last minute without having the "people expected that but he have to change it" pressure.

That's because ANet has no official forum, so who to listen to ?
The people of guru ? We are like what ? Around 5000 posting around here (pretty sure it's less but let's stay "positive"). We clearly do not represent the majority of the player base.
Imagine a group of Ursan lover starts a thread with 500 different people posting, saying that Ursan is great, that Dervishes are OP'd and that Mesmers should wield swords. Should ANet listen to them ?

The Test Krewe is there to play the role of the players.

I don't know who your sources are, but you'd better find new ones. The Test Krewe was picked from players who represent the PVP and PVE side of the GW player base. As such, I'm 100% sure that they pay a lot of attention to the opinion of the players, and not just the numbers. Just because the Test Krewe members aren't screaming and bragging on the forums that they are members, doesn't mean they are hiding. I'm pretty sure the Test Krewe is just there to provide feedback, voice your opinions and worries to the developers, and not to provide update info or anything like that. There's a lot more communication between the Test Krewe and the playerbase than you think.

You're most definitely entitled to your own opinon, and I will respect it, but... I can't see it the way you do. The $10 is much more than "5 new quests" IMHO, and the optional content it delivers (i haven't ever seen any of it) is a far cry from "transforming GW in a form of P2P."

Remember that ANet said they won't make any more add-on for GW like Factions and NF (aka no more campaign + mission + quest + skill + scenery for $50).

So now, how do you call a game, that sells updates ? Sure it's not a P2P, since no one is forcing you to buy those, but it's still "important" content.
(Costumes and Xunlai panes are in no way "important" content, it's almost useless. Don't come saying that quests can be considered "unimportant" as it's one of the thing that compose a game...if you don't play it for the quests/events/missions in the first place, why do you play it ?).

And seeing the prices in the in-game store, it's more likely that it will cost more than $10.

Yes I did. On the day it was released.

The BMP was first something you couldn't buy directly and for a limited amount of time. Then people who missed the promotion started to want it, so they made it available in the in-game store.

When I referred to it, I was talking about how you got it when it got released (just like people who bought every game as soon as they were released paid ~$150 although today you can buy all those things for more than half the price).

Make no mistake, the ArenaNet marketing department always intended for the BMP to be sold in the online store. They didn't "have a change of heart" later on based on player requests. They deliberately gave players the impression it would be a limited time only bonus content that they could only obtain via large financial purchases in the online store (coincidentally the price of Eye of the North which was released shortly after the promotion began). It was all a dirty online marketing gimmick to shoe horn honest consumers into choosing between a guaranteed way to access content for a game they loved at the cost of losing the ability to choose where to spend their money (this was especially bad for Australians who paid in british pounds at the recommended retail price which was around $40-50 Australian vs the $25 Australian EotN cost in stores here). The other option was to not spend in the online store and risk missing out on seeing Saul's, Gwen's, Togo's and Turai's stories because they were asked and refused to answer whether or not the BMP would be sold later on even though it is clear they always planned to do it.

If there is one trend ArenaNet has established since EotN's release it's that players will get ripped off left right and centre when purchasing content from the online store. Costumes are overpriced (compare the dollar value of a costume to the dollar value of a full campaign or expansion - this standard is kept by most honest gaming companies in the industry). Regardless of whether it's optional or not doesn't change the fact that it's a rip off. Online store content has become more and more prominent in ArenaNet's business model and it's clear so far they have no problems exploiting their players to turn a quick buck by overcharging for costumes and transmutation stones or whatever else they shovel out are looking to be far worse - would you pay real world cash to move insignias from armour onto another armour?

PS Malifade: you're posting technique in dealing with people you disagree with is trolling 101. Half the time you're attacking their point of view instead of contributing to their discussion.

PPS A final food for though for people who seem to love the costume model. If you bought Halloween costumes, Wedding costumes and plan on buying the Wintersday costumes you will have spent the same amount of money as you would with a monthly subscription to WoW (if you lived in Australia you would have spent more). I guarantee the amount of content and game support the game got is incomparable to the kind that is given to WoW. For people who do purchase this content, they are getting ripped off royally. The prices need to come down if they continue to fork them out like they have been doing. You are paying a monthly fee in different packaging, don't let them fool you into thinking otherwise.

/me tosses a pointy tinfoil hat to the dancing gnome.

If you think GW's completely and utterly optional microtransactions are overpriced, you should go visit other games with cash shops (most of which are not optional if you don't want to be left behind to advance at a snail's pace compared to those who pay and which generally offer things that you get only one, or a stack, of and that are bound to a single character rather than an account).

Could we buy a decent skill update twice a year ? I would gladly pay for that not the damn costumes.

I really don't understand the human race......

Here you guys are, getting stuff for free, and yet you still complain about it. This game is over five years old, and yet Anet is working to make it new and fresh with all the content they keep adding to it. And best of all, they are not charging you for any of the new content unlike some "other" company that is forcing you to pay every month. That's like visiting a free sample booth in a grocery store and then yelling at the person cause it isn't the free sample you want. Seriously, be happy with what you get and appreciate the fact that Anet is still working to give you a great game for free.

And saying a skill update is better than new content and keeps the game fresh? How does a skill update keep the game new and fresh? You are still playing through the same ol' content over and over again, with slightly tweaked skills. That doesn't make the game new and fresh. It is still the same game. New content on the other hand, brings something new. That is what keeps a game still new and fresh. New content, not tiny barely recognizable skill updates. All a skill update does is overpower this skill, make this profession overpowered, nerf this skill, and completely change this skill.

And instead of complaining about micro-transactions and saying they are a rip-off, just don't buy them then. Simple enough, solves the problem. People that do buy those, buy them cause they want to. It doesn't affect your game in any way and doesn't give them an advantage over you, so why complain about something that has no affect on your gaming experience? And seriously Dancing Gnome? It's like a Monthly Fee? You do realize it is completely optional to buy from the store right? You are not forced to buy these items to where it seems like you are paying a monthly fee. If people want to spend the money on costumes and such, let them. It is what they want to do with their money. That's like saying I shouldn't go shop at a certain store every month cause now I am basically on a payment plan with them and am forced to go there now and buy something.

tl:dr:? Learn to be happy with what you get for free. There is nothing in the cash shop that you are forced to buy to be better than anyone. Anet is offering you all this new content with no strings attached, and all you can do is complain and whine about it. The game is over five years old. Be happy they are still doing what they can to make it still seem new.

You're kidding right?

Umm let's see. Within this past year we have had a skill update basically every single month.

Last decent one was in May ..... 1-10 skill changes in pvp ,not a decent skill update is it ?

There's been far less than that, and only one of them (November 2010) was what anyone qualified would consider decent.

Of course the BMP was a marketing strategy and not really a gift to the players. However there was a way to not buy it directly : buy EotN and get it for free.

I find the costumes expensive, so I doubt I'll buy any.
This is a concerning GW2. The armor system isn't the same as in GW1, it's more like other games where you don't have insignias or runes.
I don't see why so many players have a problem with those stones : it's purely aesthetic...it allows you to keep an armor you find cool with the stats of another armor you think are good...how gamebreaking... Compared to most games that have a cash shop, I'm happy they are keeping to aesthetic only items.

I wouldn't consider changing less than 5 skills to be a skill update.

Well why not get a job at Anet since you know exactly what skills are considered "decent" to be fixed. Sorry that these skill updates we have had this year, don't meet your expectations, and are therefore, not worth it. But are we getting skill updates? Yes. Are they the exact skills you want to be updated? No, but we are getting skill updates nonetheless.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...dates/20101112
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...dates/20100521
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...dates/20100225
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...dates/20100128

Oh look. More than five skills changed four times just this year alone. That's not counting all the minor skill changes each month that they did as well.

Everyone has their own idea of what would be a decent skill update. Just because these are not the exact skills that you want updated, doesn't mean that they are worthless. That's being selfish and only thinking for yourself if you think Anet should only fix what you want fixed and nothing else. Anet is working on what they believe needs to be worked on.

We had one in february, one in may, and then we kinda had one in november, though it only changed a few skills. Thats definitely not every single month. I dont think anyone here (except you) considers 1 or 2 skills tweaked to be a "skill update".

Ah... so skill updates are only "decent" if they are PvE oriented? Oh, and you're distinctly qualified to know what a "decent" skill update is? Well gee, thanks for clearing that up!

EDIT: looks like i forgot about the january update. Still, that doesnt change the fact that after February, skill updates kinda fell out. It was 3 months before the may update and then 6 months before the most recent (and also the smallest) update.

Not everyone shares your casual attitude that updates only matter when they concern you. There's a bigger picture, you know.
There's objective ways of measuring how much damage skill "balances" do to the metagame.
They're decent if they address metagame problems without introducing bigger ones.

And yes, I'm an expert.

I never said they only matter when they concern me. That was you and several others that seems to be expressing that opinion, not me. Maybe you should take your own advice on the subject.

Well we'll make sure to inform Anet that we have an elite expert on the forums that knows more than anyone else in Guild Wars and knows exactly what needs to be done to this game better than anyone else.

Some people may see these updates as worthless, while others are happy for these updates. Anet can't please everyone all the time, and when one person thinks they know exactly what everyone wants, that is just arrogant and conceded. Everyone wants different things and there is no one "expert" that knows everything.

Oh look, 5 skills updates in 10 months. That's not a skill update basically every single months. (Yes I'm being picky, but I don't like it when people over-exaggerate on things but don't explicitly say so).

I don't count those minor Mesmer skill updates that were done to try to "balance" four or five skills because of the May's update.

Concerning the "quality" of the updates : ANet is supposed to make the game better. That isn't necessarily the same as making people happy.
Let's take an example : Ursan. How many people loved it ? How many swore by it ? How many wrote on forums "I'll quit the day they nerf ursan" ? Does this mean ANet should have left it, a broken skill that allowed you to almost brainlessly breeze through any content, untouched ?

I think I can safely speak for most GvGers.
They know already; don't worry.
But some people are more qualified than others.

Besides, if an update isn't pleasing its intended audience, what are you supposed to call it besides worthless?

Lol lemming, what if I asked "should we bring back VoD" or "should we bring back Aegis"?

I think the community is more fractured than you make it out to be. Sure, there are some skills that almost everyone agrees is overpowered (such as pre-nerf Expert's Dexterity), but there are also skills that're much more controversial. WoH / Patient Spirit is one (see Dark's thread on QQ), Assassins are another, etc. I do agree with your last point however. For all its problems, the PvP / PvE split did allow updates to reach their intended audience. Get qualified players from both arenas to discuss and vote, that would be the most logical way forward.

While i wholeheartedly agree that the more updates, the more i will play and enjoy the game, i highly doubt Anet will add more LiveTeam members to GW1. Anet isnt (entirely) stupid, they know that we, players, will want updates etc before GW2 comes out. Why do you think they released WiK, Wedding, etc stuff out? I guarantee there will be more updates before GW2 comes out, just a matter of time. They havent even released half of the professions for GW2.
Just be a little more patient.
If you're already 50-50 in HoM, i recommend you take the time to relax and make some money(if you dont already have it), so you can buy any new stuff that Anet releases between now and then.

/signed

True, but the community is pretty much unanimous in their opinion that the updates thus far this year have ranged from disappointing to destructive.

I am extremely inclined to disagree with you simply because this is probably the most arrogant thing I have seen posted... ever. However, I'v got to agree with the basic point you're making. A decent update is one that addresses metagame problems, and this is what the mesmer one did (for PvE). It made mesmers useful. I can definitely see how from a pvp standpoint, it was a "bad" update, as it overpowered mesmers quite a bit, but honestly, 3/4 (or more) of the gw population would disagree with you. The vast majority of the players are PvEers, and out of those that do PvP, I was under the impression that not many of them are hard core GvGers.

From a PvE standpoint, what needs to happen is a large nerf to spirits, PvE only skills (particularly Ascan, SY, EVAS, Finish him, and YmlaD), and smaller nerfs to discord, AP, and ER. Accompany this with slight buffs to paragons and rangers, a change to BUH to make it give armor penetration (to help eles and other elemental damage users), and make it so that crit strikes only affects daggers. PvE would be so much better...

Well, I was trying harder than usual.
The problem is, it was possible to resolve that the PvE meta issue without introducing more problems to the PvP side. Judging from the feedback from Test Krewe members, the qualified PvP contingent's response to the entire mesmer update was that it would be disastrous.

Unsurprisingly, the TK has been contemplating and testing both of these changes for months xD

I was still on the TK when the mesmer changes were pushed out. The PvP members of the TK are (for the most part) largely ignored by the developers. They design gamebreaking skills with pve in mind, are reluctant to split them for pvp, and it takes huge amount sof effort and coaxing on the part of the TK to convince designers to make reasonable changes to pvp skills.

Its always saddens me when I hear this...it makes me cross my fingers and hope these people get fired at or around the time GW2 comes out so they can't dirty it in the same way.

You consider good job that people are still running perma sin in elite areas for months now ?
You consider good job that TA and HB were deleted to a format which is far less populated than ascalon academy?
I think there are by far more complaining threads here for every PvP format than love threads ( except when it comes for costumes ofc).

Since Lemming is core GvG'er and most PvP updates concern GvG only , i guess he's more exped than us to know if those updates are good or not. The only point there is why updates concern only GvG in fact , but whatever....

So you want to be the one to nerf Shadow Form again, and anger every hardcore farmer out there? As much as I hate how overpowered perma is, you'd disappoint a lot of GW players if they could no longer do their favourite farm.

There are always more complaints than compliments. For what ever reason. The internet is a big hateful bunch that whines and whines and whines, and everyone knows everything better than anyone else.

I can't consider people have fun by farming the same place over and over 24/7 the same way. I mean , if it was a challenge even, if it was harder than it actually is ( i.e ursan time , which was clearly harder + much longer than perma do ).. but it's not the case at all.. Adding skeletons and dhuum only made it much harder for non perma teams and that is completly pathetic ....

To add stuff , i think these kind of farms changed a lot players mentality , turning whole game into farm mentality , which ruined PvP especially ( most players go there and are like : wtf ? only 200 factions a win and 1k500 luxon/5 wins needed for AB/RA? kk back to MQSC ) . Aswell you should just see how pathetic players are : " omfg 10 sec too long stupid noob " , " gg we run out of cons gg pay back stupid failer " , or i could go on with more....

But still, if you can't imagine people having fun farming, perhaps you should try to understand them before you nerf their favourite skill. There are plenty of people who enjoy farming. And I'm sure you would get a lot of people angry players that might leave the game if SF was nerfed yet again. You have to try and cater to everyone when balancing skills. Balancing isn't simply a matter of "Right, lets nerf SF into the ground, girls".

If it is a skill that should not have made it's way into the game in the first place then yes, it should die in a fire regardless if people liked it or not. People were farming before shadow form was around and they will continue after it is gone. Shadow form and a lot of other skills turned a large number of the pve community from people who would often think outside the box to overcome challenges to people who don't know the meaning of the word "challenge." The game isn't meant to be easy you know. . .

And for most people it isn't.