No really... this is serious question.
Anyone familiar with paragons will realize that their DPS is (very) lacking compared to the other physical damage dealers. But given the assumption that we want to use a paragon hero for damage, how much damage can we expect? What I want is to find out the best possible damage that one can get from a paragon hero by himself without damage buffs from other characters. No PvE skills either, remember this is a hero build.
The best I have been able to get so far is ~45 dps with spear, and ~63 dps with spear and pet. These numbers don't count deep wound or other conditions. I don't want to sway the results so I'm not going to lay out the builds I was using to attain these numbers, please give it your best shot and we'll compare builds later.
Paragon DPS
Khomet Si Netjer
Haggis of Doom
All that I'm about to say everyone probably know already, so it's only my interpretation on their significance that I'm presenting.
Imho they shouldn't offer the same level of DPS as the other physical chars. None of the others offer party-wide buffs as the para does. In addition, some skills even give DPS to either minions or spirits (GftE, Anthem of Envy), which in the current state of things is something quite big.
Also, consider that paragons are exponentially better as their numbers grow (which is more true for Echos/Finales, sadly not many of these are offensive, I can only think of Blazing Finale from the top of my head).
It's like an Orders/Curses necro. Solo he does little DPS, but in a big physical party he's the star ^^
That said, if you want a DPS hero para, you should look more at what he does in whole rather than what he does when flying solo, just as a DPS SoS Rit hero will slot Splinter Weapon. Party buffs are part of the para's niches, it'd be a shame not to abuse it and try to be some other physical, which 3 classes are already focused on doing (let's be honest, if a war/sin sucked at DPS, what else do they have to offer?).
Imho they shouldn't offer the same level of DPS as the other physical chars. None of the others offer party-wide buffs as the para does. In addition, some skills even give DPS to either minions or spirits (GftE, Anthem of Envy), which in the current state of things is something quite big.
Also, consider that paragons are exponentially better as their numbers grow (which is more true for Echos/Finales, sadly not many of these are offensive, I can only think of Blazing Finale from the top of my head).
It's like an Orders/Curses necro. Solo he does little DPS, but in a big physical party he's the star ^^
That said, if you want a DPS hero para, you should look more at what he does in whole rather than what he does when flying solo, just as a DPS SoS Rit hero will slot Splinter Weapon. Party buffs are part of the para's niches, it'd be a shame not to abuse it and try to be some other physical, which 3 classes are already focused on doing (let's be honest, if a war/sin sucked at DPS, what else do they have to offer?).
LifeInfusion
If all you're using is Aggressive Refrain and 12 spear it's better than a bow (it's faster, and 14-27 isn't much different than 15-28). If you really want to do damage I'd say adrenaline attacks like Stunning Strike, Blazing Spear, Wild Throw, Holy Spear, Spear of Redemption, with GFTE + Vicious attack/spear of Lightning.
The only reason why Dagger, Scythe, Axe, Sword, Hammer DPS is better is because of attack skills and SoH. (And AoHM for Scythe)
The only reason why Dagger, Scythe, Axe, Sword, Hammer DPS is better is because of attack skills and SoH. (And AoHM for Scythe)
Khomet Si Netjer
No offense guys but you are missing the point... I want to know if anyone can get more than 45dps (with spear) or 63dps (with spear and pet), and if so, how would it be done. The usual crap about "paragons are not meant for dps" etc. is not answering this question.
Haggis of Doom
Are you sure you are asking the right question?
Sure, you can ask for the best Tactics party support build warriors can run, the fact remains that it's bound to more or less fail from the beginning
EDIT
That analogy wasn't adequate, how about this one: "How do I optimize DPS for a HM ele hero?"
The question is not inherently wrong, but ele heroes just shouldn't be used for DPS in HM. Same here: want pure unaided DPS --> take different hero.
If it's just mental exercise you want, go ahead, but make sure everyone knows that. I assumed you wanted optimization with an intro such as "this is a serious question"
@Vazze: he wants hero builds, not player ones.
Sure, you can ask for the best Tactics party support build warriors can run, the fact remains that it's bound to more or less fail from the beginning
EDIT
That analogy wasn't adequate, how about this one: "How do I optimize DPS for a HM ele hero?"
The question is not inherently wrong, but ele heroes just shouldn't be used for DPS in HM. Same here: want pure unaided DPS --> take different hero.
If it's just mental exercise you want, go ahead, but make sure everyone knows that. I assumed you wanted optimization with an intro such as "this is a serious question"
@Vazze: he wants hero builds, not player ones.
Vazze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
No offense guys but you are missing the point... I want to know if anyone can get more than 45dps (with spear) or 63dps (with spear and pet), and if so, how would it be done. The usual crap about "paragons are not meant for dps" etc. is not answering this question.
63 dps is not bad at all on a hero.
Kunder
Best bet is simply lots of buffs from yourself or the rest of the party. EVSoH, Orders, BUH, etc.
The real problem isn't that their single target DPS is low (since every class has fairly low single target DPS unbuffed), its that they have no way to inflict AoE damage. Swords get Hundred Blades, Axe/Hammer both get multiple spammable straight AoE attacks, Daggers get Death Blossom, and Bows get Barrage. Spear gets nothing.
The real problem isn't that their single target DPS is low (since every class has fairly low single target DPS unbuffed), its that they have no way to inflict AoE damage. Swords get Hundred Blades, Axe/Hammer both get multiple spammable straight AoE attacks, Daggers get Death Blossom, and Bows get Barrage. Spear gets nothing.
X Dr Pepper X
Paragon DPS is fine.
Burning Spear, Spear of Lightning, Vicious Spear, Spear of Fury, Cruel Spear, Stunning Strike
Combined with some of:
Focused Anger, Soldier's Fury, Aggressive Refrain, "Go For The Eyes!", Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Flame, "Find Their Weakness!", "Fear Me!"
Equals good, persistent single target DPS with good spiking capability.
Seriously, nobody should be complaining about the Para's damage. They do not need AoE capabilities at all.
Burning Spear, Spear of Lightning, Vicious Spear, Spear of Fury, Cruel Spear, Stunning Strike
Combined with some of:
Focused Anger, Soldier's Fury, Aggressive Refrain, "Go For The Eyes!", Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Flame, "Find Their Weakness!", "Fear Me!"
Equals good, persistent single target DPS with good spiking capability.
Seriously, nobody should be complaining about the Para's damage. They do not need AoE capabilities at all.
Lanier
Agree completely with the above post. I have played paragons since the release of nightfall and my main is a paragon (despite showing rt/ under my avatar). I haver never had any complaints with the dps of a paragon, as spears do good damage and there are many quality spear attacks like spear of lightning, blazing spear, vicious attack, cruel spear, etc.
Id go with 3-4 spear attacks - probably 3 (the above all work well for a hero) - along with aggressive refrain, a rez (since this is a hero after all) and 3 shouts/chants that compliment damage. Anthem of flame both allows the hero to maintain AR and gives it +42 damage with a net energy gain every 10 seconds or so, so its a definite go. Other options include Anthem of Envy, Go for the eyes, and find their weakness.
Id go with 3-4 spear attacks - probably 3 (the above all work well for a hero) - along with aggressive refrain, a rez (since this is a hero after all) and 3 shouts/chants that compliment damage. Anthem of flame both allows the hero to maintain AR and gives it +42 damage with a net energy gain every 10 seconds or so, so its a definite go. Other options include Anthem of Envy, Go for the eyes, and find their weakness.
X Dr Pepper X
The only reason people want more damage on a profession is because there are overbuffed, broken, and power creeped builds in the metagame shadowing what once used to be good, respectable damage.
Mesmers, Necros, and Rits and even casters in general are just broken good with damage. This is why people are crying for buffs on Ele, Ranger, Derv, and Para.
Mesmers, Necros, and Rits and even casters in general are just broken good with damage. This is why people are crying for buffs on Ele, Ranger, Derv, and Para.
C.H.U.C.K.S
You can do ~85 dps with:
[Asuran Scan] + [Conjure Flame] + [Merciless Spear] + [Blazing Spear] + [Spear of Fury] + [Cant Touch This] + [Go For the Eyes] + [Solider Fury]
*Needs a Fiery mod to work*
[Asuran Scan] + [Conjure Flame] + [Merciless Spear] + [Blazing Spear] + [Spear of Fury] + [Cant Touch This] + [Go For the Eyes] + [Solider Fury]
*Needs a Fiery mod to work*
Kumu Honua
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.H.U.C.K.S
You can do ~85 dps with:
[Asuran Scan] + [Conjure Flame] + [Merciless Spear] + [Blazing Spear] + [Spear of Fury] + [Cant Touch This] + [Go For the Eyes] + [Solider Fury]
*Needs a Fiery mod to work* He specifically stated that he wanted no usage of PvE skills as it was going to be used by a hero which cannot use PvE skills.
[Asuran Scan] + [Conjure Flame] + [Merciless Spear] + [Blazing Spear] + [Spear of Fury] + [Cant Touch This] + [Go For the Eyes] + [Solider Fury]
*Needs a Fiery mod to work* He specifically stated that he wanted no usage of PvE skills as it was going to be used by a hero which cannot use PvE skills.
Xenomortis
Try a Scythe instead. Not sure what numbers you'd get though.
Mystic Sweep
Eremite's Attack
[some other attack]
GFTE
Asuran Scan
AoHM
Focused Anger
Drunken Master/Aggressive Refrain
Spam GFTE for energy on every hit and hit the +5e breakpoint in Leadership. It charges with one hit if you have FA and Dark Fury up.
A Zealous Scythe would keep things neat on the energy front.
Edit:
Just noticed the "no PvE skills" bit. Use an Ele instead if it's for a hero.
More usefully:
If you're really wanting to push DPS on a Para then either run Orders somewhere or give the Para some sort of self buff like Conjure.
Cruel Spear, Blazing Spear, Spear of Lightning, GFTE, Anthem of Envy, Conjure Flame, Aggressive Refrain*, [something]
*What are heroes like with AR? If they're really bad give them Soldier's Fury and replace the Elite with another high damage attack then make sure there's a maintainable shout somewhere.
If you're purely concerned about the damage done by the hero alone and are looking to maximise that, then cut Anthem of Envy and maybe even GFTE - whilst these stack up nicely in a physical heavy team they'll only hinder solo DPS.
Mystic Sweep
Eremite's Attack
[some other attack]
GFTE
Asuran Scan
AoHM
Focused Anger
Drunken Master/Aggressive Refrain
Spam GFTE for energy on every hit and hit the +5e breakpoint in Leadership. It charges with one hit if you have FA and Dark Fury up.
A Zealous Scythe would keep things neat on the energy front.
Edit:
Just noticed the "no PvE skills" bit. Use an Ele instead if it's for a hero.
More usefully:
If you're really wanting to push DPS on a Para then either run Orders somewhere or give the Para some sort of self buff like Conjure.
Cruel Spear, Blazing Spear, Spear of Lightning, GFTE, Anthem of Envy, Conjure Flame, Aggressive Refrain*, [something]
*What are heroes like with AR? If they're really bad give them Soldier's Fury and replace the Elite with another high damage attack then make sure there's a maintainable shout somewhere.
If you're purely concerned about the damage done by the hero alone and are looking to maximise that, then cut Anthem of Envy and maybe even GFTE - whilst these stack up nicely in a physical heavy team they'll only hinder solo DPS.
Khomet Si Netjer
Allright here are some results that I gathered myself, since no one else seems inclined to post hard numbers.
P/any with spear (soldiers fury): ~42dps
P/E with spear (soldier's fury, conjure flame): ~57dps
P/D with scythe (zealous vow): ~52dps, no IAS
P/A with daggers (soldier's fury, golden/ff/db): ~43dps, energy problems
P/R with bow (prepared shot, read the wind): ~40dps, energy problems, no IAS
P/R with spear and pet (enraged lunge): ~63dps, no IAS
P/W with sword (dragon slash, FGJ): ~69dps, not sustainable
P/W with axe (cleave, FGJ): ~56dps, not sustainable
P/Rt with spear (SoS, painful bond, etc): ~68dps
so what does all of this mean? my interpretation is that even with 14+ spear mastery and full IAS, the paragon's spear damage is inferior to the same paragon running any other weapon. why is this? the spear's base damage and attack rate seem well balanced compared to the other weapons, the problem is that the paragon skills have less bonus damage than other professions and they have no damage buffs to help them do better. It's pretty easy to see that the other professions can deliver higher numbers because of runes and benefits from their primary attribute (strength, critstrikes, etc). Some of these builds were not able to perform as well as they would in an 8-man team because of energy constraints. The P/R with bow and P/A with daggers burn energy much faster than it can be generated, since this testing was done solo. If they had adequate energy from shouts their damage output would be greater. Also, the P/R and P/D had no IAS because there is no way to keep up with the energy cost during solo testing, and consumables are not alllowed. The P/R and P/D would deliver more damage in an 8-man team where Aggressive Refrain can be used.
so in summary...
spear damage is too weak relative to the competition, and I am pleasantly surprised that my p/r enraged lunge build compares favorably with dragon slash spam and spirit spam, even without IAS for the paragon, and especially considering that deep wound and other conditions are not factored into the damage. Enraged Lunge is great deep wound spam.
P/any with spear (soldiers fury): ~42dps
P/E with spear (soldier's fury, conjure flame): ~57dps
P/D with scythe (zealous vow): ~52dps, no IAS
P/A with daggers (soldier's fury, golden/ff/db): ~43dps, energy problems
P/R with bow (prepared shot, read the wind): ~40dps, energy problems, no IAS
P/R with spear and pet (enraged lunge): ~63dps, no IAS
P/W with sword (dragon slash, FGJ): ~69dps, not sustainable
P/W with axe (cleave, FGJ): ~56dps, not sustainable
P/Rt with spear (SoS, painful bond, etc): ~68dps
so what does all of this mean? my interpretation is that even with 14+ spear mastery and full IAS, the paragon's spear damage is inferior to the same paragon running any other weapon. why is this? the spear's base damage and attack rate seem well balanced compared to the other weapons, the problem is that the paragon skills have less bonus damage than other professions and they have no damage buffs to help them do better. It's pretty easy to see that the other professions can deliver higher numbers because of runes and benefits from their primary attribute (strength, critstrikes, etc). Some of these builds were not able to perform as well as they would in an 8-man team because of energy constraints. The P/R with bow and P/A with daggers burn energy much faster than it can be generated, since this testing was done solo. If they had adequate energy from shouts their damage output would be greater. Also, the P/R and P/D had no IAS because there is no way to keep up with the energy cost during solo testing, and consumables are not alllowed. The P/R and P/D would deliver more damage in an 8-man team where Aggressive Refrain can be used.
so in summary...
spear damage is too weak relative to the competition, and I am pleasantly surprised that my p/r enraged lunge build compares favorably with dragon slash spam and spirit spam, even without IAS for the paragon, and especially considering that deep wound and other conditions are not factored into the damage. Enraged Lunge is great deep wound spam.
Lanier
If you want hard numbers, I remember testing my cruel spear build awhile ago and it generated a 50 something dps. I don't really find that to be "weak"... but w/e, iv not really compared it to other options to be honest.
Im curious what build you use for your enraged lunge build. My favorite dps build, along with my cruel spear one, is my pet build (mainly b/c i love using my pet) and I am pretty happy with its dps. My version uses:
Spear of Fury
Spear of Redemption
Blazing Spear
Go for the eyes
Ferocious Strike
Never Rampage alone
Symbiotic Bond
Comfort Animal
Iv considered replacing Spear of Redemption with burning refrain (since a dire pet has low health) but I never really bothered testing it out since i was worried about energy constraints. What do you use for your beastmaster build? I would be curious to see what other options are out there.
Im curious what build you use for your enraged lunge build. My favorite dps build, along with my cruel spear one, is my pet build (mainly b/c i love using my pet) and I am pretty happy with its dps. My version uses:
Spear of Fury
Spear of Redemption
Blazing Spear
Go for the eyes
Ferocious Strike
Never Rampage alone
Symbiotic Bond
Comfort Animal
Iv considered replacing Spear of Redemption with burning refrain (since a dire pet has low health) but I never really bothered testing it out since i was worried about energy constraints. What do you use for your beastmaster build? I would be curious to see what other options are out there.
Tender Care
As paragon player I use to have para heroes in my teams sometimes (just for fun, not for speed), but i deserve main dmg for me as I can use PvE skills....
But look at this: P/Rit
Natural Temper
Aggressive Refrain
Sundering Weapon
Go for the eyes
Spear of Lightning
Blazing Spear
Holy Spear
Cruel Spear (E)
Another combination could be Brutal Weapon at 10 in Communing....nice dmg boost
But look at this: P/Rit
Natural Temper
Aggressive Refrain
Sundering Weapon
Go for the eyes
Spear of Lightning
Blazing Spear
Holy Spear
Cruel Spear (E)
Another combination could be Brutal Weapon at 10 in Communing....nice dmg boost
Jeydra
I couldn't do better (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=24) so it seems ~45 DPS is the most you can hope for with a Paragon hero, which is ... disappointing.
Khomet Si Netjer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Care
But look at this: P/Rit
Natural Temper
Aggressive Refrain
Sundering Weapon
Go for the eyes
Spear of Lightning
Blazing Spear
Holy Spear
Cruel Spear (E)
Another combination could be Brutal Weapon at 10 in Communing....nice dmg boost
p.s. let me know when you're done studying so we can do some paraway.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Lanier
Khomet Si Netjer FoxBat
Bring 3 heroes with pets, or some defensive spirits.
Lanier
Also (and this is directed at anyone reading this thread), you have to keep in mind that simply going to the master of damage isn't going to get you an accurate reading of your total dps. As a paragon, many of the attack buffs used (Anthem of Flame, Go for the eyes, Anthem of Envy) will give a slight increase to both your own and your ally's dps. Therefore, the only really accurate way to determine a para build's dps is to take yourself + the physicals you plan on having in your party and get a dps reading for all the physical chars combined. Then take each of the other physicals in your party, and get an individual dps rating for them (without the use of the player character buffs). Subtract these values from the total dps to get the actual dps of the player character.
I guess what Im trying to say is that when determining the dps of a paragon's build, you also have to take into account the extra damage that you cause your allies and party members to inflict. I may go do a comparison test like this with my cruel spear build later on tonight, and see what i get.
Khomet Si Netjer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier
I guess what Im trying to say is that when determining the dps of a paragon's build, you also have to take into account the extra damage that you cause your allies and party members to inflict. I may go do a comparison test like this with my cruel spear build later on tonight, and see what i get. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tender Care
Well...did u notice Sundering Weapon? That's the trick
AR is easily mantained with go for the eyes that gives you a 6 energy + it's an adrenaline based build....energy wouldn't be a problem i guess. Same for Brutal Weapon....even if running with henchies healers you could lose benefit for they use lots of enchantments..... PS: as i told in my thread i'm quite busy atm, so you have to be patiente for a run Of course I noticed Sundering Weapon, that's the whole point of going P/Rt. I like the idea but if you are going to have sundering weapon it seems a shame not to carry Chest Thumper for spammable deep wound. Anyways I tried my best to make this build look as good as possible in this test but I cannot get higher than 49 dps with it. Sundering Weapon adds to the dps because of the armor penetration but also reduces dps because of its cast time and aftercast. Here is what I ended up with. P/Rt Soldier's Fury with Sundering Weapon; spear; 49dps 11+1+1 spear 5+1 command 9+1 leadership 10 communing spear of lightning spear of redemption holy spear blazing spear go for the eyes sundering weapon can't touch this soldier's fury (e) Top spear-wielding builds so far, with revised numbers: P/W Soldier's Fury with FGJ; spear; 60dps 12+1+1 spear 12+1 command 3+1 leadership spear of lightning spear of redemption holy spear blazing spear go for the eyes enduring harmony for great justice soldier's fury (e) Repeated testing of this gets slightly lower dps and I have lowered it accordingly. the first two runs were a bit luckier than usual i suppose. P/R Enraged Lunge; spear and pet; ~72dps (68-76 depending on luck) 12 beast 12+1+1 spear Spear of Lightning Spear of Redemption Holy Spear Blazing Spear Enraged Lunge (e) Scavenger Strike Call of Haste Comfort Animal This build is optimized for pure damage, but for PvE you should lose one of the spear skills and add Otyugh's Cry to give the pet unblockability and additional armor, it's just too good to pass up. Humans should use Never Rampage Alone instead of Call of Haste and Spear of Fury instead of Spear of Lightning. Take Spear of Lighting as well if you can afford the energy cost. The key to getting maximum damage from this build is that you can activate two attack skills at the same time, one for you and one for the pet. always hit attack skills as soon as they become available, just remember not to hit more than one pet attack skill at a time, they are not queued.
Khomet Si Netjer
i revised the dervish build and got it up to 62dps average.
P/D Zealous Vow and Blazing Finale; scythe; 62dps scythe 12 leadership 10+1+1 wind 8 command 3+1 victorious sweep mystic sweep eremite's attack go for the eyes blazing finale heart of holy flame aura of thorns zealous vow (e) note that heart of holy flame and aura of thorns are not very useful in this build, i only brought them because they are long lasting enchantments that increase the damage from mystic sweep. a human player should bring Aura of Holy Might and Great Dwarf Armor instead or perhaps another PvE skill, this will increase the DPS quite a bit. Also the player can use consumables for IAS which will increase dps further. Still, 62dps for a hero (AoE dps at that) is not bad at all. P/W Soldier's Fury, FGJ; Axe; 59-68 dps (avg ~65) 12 axe 10+1+1 leadership 8+1 command penetrating chop penetrating blow executioner's strike go for the eyes blazing finale enduring harmony for great justice soldier's fury (e) I have created a page to hold all of the results i'm collecting so that everything is in one place. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Paragon_DPS
Lanier
So, uh, I thought Id let you know that I just now tested out my cruel spear build and I got an average dps of 61... Note that this was found with one PvE skill (Spear of Fury), but still, spear of lightning has a comperable +dmg if you wanted to use it on a hero... and still, it was an average dps of 61. This appears to be comperable to the other options that you tested, which leads me to believe that in terms of single target damage, spear dps is just fine.
My heroes were brought along (with skills disabled and on avoid combat) in order to better simulate the actual energy management. I didn't use FGJ but I would imagine that bringing it over Tntf would increase dps further.
Lanier
I guess your right about the whole invalid thing, so I tested a more hero friendly build instead. Got similar numbers and results ranged between 61 and 69 average dps.
I guess you can add that to your page of calculations. chuckles79
I did an apples to apples comparison a few months ago, and the same naysayers came out trying to say apples to apples w/o pve skills somehow don't matchup...(fail to see how).
The only class that can't out direct damage/spike a para is a necro, which has a thousand ways to inflict conditional damage and damage through minions so it's not a good comparison. The only physical that comes close to the low AVERAGE DPS of a paragon is the ranger in a fight lasting longer than 30 sec. Even with Expertise eventually e-mgmt will drop them lower. However in the first 30 sec they can pump out more damage and the overall Avg DPS over a minute is slightly higher. The other physical classes pump out damage that puts the para to shame, with warriors getting almost 2.5x the damage output with DragonSlash spamming. This in itself would not matter except for the facts that without PvE only skills, one of which belongs to warriors, paras are outshown in EVERY possible way by other classes. They can be out protted, out healed, out DPS, out spiked, out buffed, out everything. They cannot tank, since Anet locked all warrior tanking safely behind Strength, cannot block stance (Expertise). They are not even the best spear wielders (see spear sins and imbawars). The worst is that most of the most useful shouts and chants are in the Command line...accessible to other classes. Paragon shouts are increasingly popular ran on casters. Paragons have great e-mgmt...as long as they are shouting with a large group...otherwise it's pitiful. Dervishes suck because they tried to do too many things with them, rangers have been disadvantaged as anet has moved to a hex heavy strategy based meta vs conditions, and eles are stuck since scatter on AoE in HM has rendered them impotent. Advantage to paras? Not quite. First off, Luxon/Kurzick armor req. for HoM points. NA for dervs and paras. Number of skills (especially elites), again dervs and paras take it in the rear. Versatility of builds...paras lose BIG time. The silver lining is that you can run any crap and probably still beat the game. I've seen some rocking P/R builds that do just fine. However here's the final word. I've spent the bulk of my time in GW playing a para. I never have a lot of money and the chances of seeing obby armor were about 1000-1 no. I created a rit a couple of months ago, and within one week I had tripled the amount of ectos I had ever earned. The game should not be designed so that you have to play as a certain profession to enjoy all aspects of the game. That has been the great failure of the GW1 design and I am absolutely thrilled that Anet seems ready to leave that failure behind in the sequel. Gabs88
Still, paragons have good attackspeed and decent range. Once the 7 hero update comes out we'll be seeing 3 paragons and maybe even a R\P or two in every single of this games teams.. It'll be the new FOTM for damage dealing
Paragons biggest downside is that they need someone else to boost their damage.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
re: single target damage, the paragon can pick up an axe or sword or scythe and do more damage even though his weapon mastery is only 12 instead of 14. does that seem right to you? the weapons are not balanced.
A melee character running between targets is doing 0 DPS. Melee characters are generally the first target for AI to throw their physical hate hexes and conditions. Melee characters are more susceptible to damage loss through blocks as they can't simply change targets while a block enchantment/stance/etc wears off. Melee characters have to deal with bodyblocking, ranged can quarter-step attack something in range while they get into range for a target out of sight or up a hill.
I am in no way familiar with the damage numbers characters are capable of nowadays but the only one I would be concerned about is against a Ranger, but a Ranger can't pack the kind of utility I'm bringing a Paragon along for anyway so it doesn't matter. Unless you're balling enemies up to be AoEd down there is no need to concern yourself with the numbers the master of damage is yelling out. The only number you might be concerned about on the master of damage, to be frank, is when death occurred; killing one or two targets in any mob essentially means all of the threats are dead and you win.
Khomet Si Netjer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
A melee character running between targets is doing 0 DPS. Melee characters are generally the first target for AI to throw their physical hate hexes and conditions. Melee characters are more susceptible to damage loss through blocks as they can't simply change targets while a block enchantment/stance/etc wears off. Melee characters have to deal with bodyblocking, ranged can quarter-step attack something in range while they get into range for a target out of sight or up a hill.
I am in no way familiar with the damage numbers characters are capable of nowadays but the only one I would be concerned about is against a Ranger, but a Ranger can't pack the kind of utility I'm bringing a Paragon along for anyway so it doesn't matter. Unless you're balling enemies up to be AoEd down there is no need to concern yourself with the numbers the master of damage is yelling out. The only number you might be concerned about on the master of damage, to be frank, is when death occurred; killing one or two targets in any mob essentially means all of the threats are dead and you win. Hey Racthoh... welcome back! I agree with you re: kiting and snaring and such, people tend to overestimate melee effectiveness because of this. However paragons and rangers will get almost all of the physical hate that melee characters get because they are all physical attackers. I remember running through Shards of Orr with you and we both got plenty of blind on us. I think the AI generally makes this decision based on what weapon the character is holding rather than choosing based on profession. re: current damage numbers, I have compiled a list of common configurations that one might use. My research was to explore the capability of various weapons on a paragon primary with the hypothesis that spear damage is inferior to all other weapons. And as you can see from the data this hypothesis is borne out pretty well, without even considering AoE damage that all other weapons can give you. :-\ http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Paragon_DPS juventas
That's just hero dps, right? I haven't done any testing, but just by initial impression that 6 spirits with painful bond has higher damage output than anything.
Khomet Si Netjer
Kaida the Heartless
I think Racthoh pretty much hit the nail on the head.
The Para wasn't ever intended to be a full-on DPS char. I'm not sure what conclusions you are trying to reach.
LifeInfusion
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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
P/any with spear (soldiers fury): ~42dps P/E with spear (soldier's fury, conjure flame): ~57dps P/D with scythe (zealous vow): ~52dps, no IAS P/A with daggers (soldier's fury, golden/ff/db): ~43dps, energy problems P/R with bow (prepared shot, read the wind): ~40dps, energy problems, no IAS P/R with spear and pet (enraged lunge): ~63dps, no IAS P/W with sword (dragon slash, FGJ): ~69dps, not sustainable P/W with axe (cleave, FGJ): ~56dps, not sustainable P/Rt with spear (SoS, painful bond, etc): ~68dps |
Sword/axe/hammer/scythe have ~40DPS on 33% IAS. Dropping Soldier's Fury for Frenzy/Flail would mean spear does more because you can slot Cruel Spear/Stunning Strike/other +damage elite or whatever. (axe = 40dps,sword = 40dps,hammer = 45dps with 13 str, 16mastery, see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10326347.html or http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/966...ondamagera.jpg)
The fact is that a Paragon with 14+ spear and suitable attack skills is *still* doing less damage than he would do with any other weapon. Bows give slightly less damage than spear vs. single targets and much more if you can hit multiple targets. This is clearly shown by the data I have collected.
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