Snowball Ats Bots and Macros

Yes.

Last I heard, Anet doesn't even register this on their radar. And appealing to the TK isn't a great idea currently. They're hardly functioning as it is.

If I were you, I'd just bring this to the attention of Gaile either through email or on GWW. She's probably your only hope to get this some attention, and honestly, we'll have no idea if they care about this until they do something.

Sorry, bud, but that's the current state of GW.

Indeed it seems that way does it not? I guess we can only hope by raising the profile of this issue more people will care to speak up about it and that as a PR issue for anet it becomes an issue that they need to address rather than ignore it.

The key problem is that if this is how they expect to handle issues in GW2 then they will put off many customers and I am waiting to see publicly what they are going to do about it.

Silver

So I read on GW2guru and the anet blog that Snowball arena will return, hence possibly 5v5 snowball gvg.

Assuming similar game play (returning presents and dodging key attacks) then GW2 will be bot/macro heaven as anet are unable to do anything about this problem for the last two years in GW.

You would think they would try and combat the problem somewhat, increase expertise to better combat cheats in GW2?

Silver

In some other games they have 'input display'. It shows the keystrokes of a player when you observe a match. It's quite easy to tell if someone is macro'ing or mashing the keys himself.

For every security measure you take, there's always a way around it.

Any retard can make a bot, given the right tools (GWCA, etc) with super human behaviour.

It takes a decent programmer to write a bot that's undetectable in behaviour, yet is super human.

For example, writing an interrupt bot that sometimes misses interrupts (on purpose), yet on key moments will pleak an infuse/WoH so it seems like it was a lucky interrupt, tough still probably winning the game.

As for checking for keystrokes, running a bot doesn't mean you can't have manual input. For some reason, alot of uneducated people on this issue seem to assume a bot plays for you when in reality it plays with you. You can easily "spam" keystrokes to try and pick up relics fast, yet when the present drops, your bot will ALSO send in keystrokes, just super fast. (Speed of your ping pretty much)
This would be completely undetectable from an observer's point of view, as you'dd have no way to distinguish real keystrokes from botted ones.

The only way is detecting injections/interference with GW.exe. To get that, there have to be several EULA changes, aswell as a severe security overhaul and maybe even legal agreements. (With microsoft where they give Anet permission to scan the computer for injections) As usually is my case with this issue: I don't know the exact knowhow and numbers, but I do know the basis and structure.

Detecting injections such as currently exist (A new wave of interrupt bots is starting to emerge going by RA standards as of last week) would be nearly impossible on Anet's part, unless through visual conformation.

And we all know how capable NCSoft's employees are at that. (Or anything for that matter)

The last banning spree was sparked by the injected .DLL which the bot injected. But this time they don't need to inject a .DLL. Just go look at "that botting site" which can't be named for obvious reasons but can be found on google. Theres plenty of things on there that have been running for months now undetected. Bots haven't gone away they've just got stronger.

I'm sometimes tempted to just make a bot to play my secondary accounts inside a virtual machine to assist my main char in PVE, so multiple accounts get VQ and missions done. I can play two or three accounts manually and still be succesful in HM and the elite areas, but anything above that becomes a disorganized mess.

Always wondered why Anet doesn't capitalize on this need and actually sells such things as a service, like a lot of Asian games do. Especially in PVE, since you're not affecting anyone else.

Bots and macros in PVP, where you do affect others, should be acted against, obviously.

Seen some posts by folks about a stealth update last recently that has something to do with key strokes, as well as seeing a few bans being issued about automated clickers (macros, programmes etc). Though I am not sure of the accuracy of the method used by Anet, as one person got banned at the same time as another person was using it and contiuned to use it for a further 24 hours at least before he decided it was not worth the risk (in case you are wondering it was for the drunken title). It was not me as I have maxed 35 titles over a year ago

Anyway, can anyone validate this or provide more detail? I am wondering whether or not Snowball GvG 2011 will be worth playing with the huge ammount of cheats as it nets them over 10 stacks of zkeys. More importantly it ruins the fun of geniune players who want a fair competitive environment.

Cheers

Silver

I like to play AT for fun - I try not to take it too seriously but it does get annoying when your opponent is using macros and it is obvious when they are doing so. It is also a little obvious when they are using bots.
An example of macros being used is when you are up close blocking the person running the present and have knocked them down with a stoned snowball as well as having slowed them down, the present drops and although you click it as soon as it appears, your stood right next to it, the opponent manages to beat you to picking it up. An example of bots is when the opponent team is actually boasting that there are only 3 of them playing but manage to play a full team together between 'the multiple accounts' hitting you with more than 3 players simultaneously and basically the team behaving as if they had more than 4 hench playing - using the exact same fighting techniques that hench use.
Personally, I find it sad that people feel the need to cheat (and macros is cheating) in what is supposed to be a game - a bit of a laugh not to be taken too seriously. It is like facing one guy with 4 hench and 3 afkers. You offer to do 1v1 or 2v2 because you want to have some fun, but they insist on flagging their hench on the god avatar or on presents as they appear... its all a bit sad really.
It's just a game, and should not be taken too seriously but it is not much fun when the opponent is being a jerk. You just give a big sigh and wonder why you bother trying to have some fun in a game full of cheats.

I am a member of a major alliance [TIG] that is mainly pve. We got a few pleyers who now and then make teams for HA or gvg, but I never heard someone in ally or guild chat trying to assemble a team for snowball AT. MY guess is that we are prejudiced, its either elitists or botters. Now I am not entitled to speak on behalf of the TIG alliance but this is my guess that a large portion of the player mass simply ignores the snowball AT and similar events because they expect it to be dominated by elitists or botters. The TIG guild I am leader of got 99 members atm and I havent felt the slightest urge to attempt to lead some of my guildies into such a battle.

If you are using the mouse to pick presents , then you're doing it wrong and many( non botters) will pick faster anyway.. I recommend you to associate Targeting : Item- Nearest to R ( especially if you use letters to move) and try to spam it + space when present is going to be dropped..

An easy way to beat the bot is to cancel cast spam having hidden rock on your self, because the bot will instant DnD, wherever you are( even if you're 10 meters away and guy could just dodge with the present)

Yeah I tried the snow pvp event for the first time this year. Will never do it again. One of the players on the opposing team was somehow picking up presents before they were even visible on the ground. I could hardly tell what was even going on.

A-net please address this...

Technically, multiboxing guilds to exploit the absurd amounts of RPs that snowball ATs dole out isn't "botting."

It's exploitative, sure, but I suspect that it also wouldn't be a problem were the participation bonus not so high.

I don't really PVP and so don't know the rules as well, but isn't this match manipulation and therefore, against the rules?

Probably 70% of the PvP population today is doing match manipulation, as a result of incredible rewards and lack of activity in formats.. Sure it's annoying when you can't do anything but watching those people reap rewards..

That's why i keep arguing about heroes for years, because today we can only say the reward is what's left in PvP. There has to be a consequent reward so the format isn't empty( a.k.a AB) and not be too high so it's not totally abused( i.e Codex, who got strongboxes in addition)...
You can't find a solution at the state of the game, so having henchs allowed will just make everyone equal towards people using multi launch with many accounts and reaping rewards...
Sure it will be annoying to face those, but it's still better than having restarts forever....


About snowball At's, i think that there would be the same amount of players, whatever the reward was, because it will still be free rewards for those people...

A couple of days ago I did Snowball for this first time in ages. I got 28 zkeys (ridiculous) from winning about 5 matches in the tournament then we were knocked out by a team who could drop presents and pick them up without them being visible. I have the semicolon key assigned to 'target nearest object' and i was spamming it alternately with spacebar but didn't manage to pick up one dropped gift for the whole match. In order for us to win at the later stage of the Snowball ATs we're going to have to use the macros also.

The second option is for the devs at Anet do something about the problem but let's be real...

High rewards and lack of real activity don't allow or even justify cheating. Manipulating matches, farming rewards via leavers on dual accounts, using bots - all of them are bannable offences and that '70% of the PvP population' should be outright punished. It doesn't matter that the PvP format will die out after that, and that 'manipulating matches is all we have left to do' - it's cheating, nonetheless.

I'd suggest using fraps every time you enter the SAT, and if you record any illegal activity, submit it to ANet via their official support forum. If they get enough complaints, i'm sure they'll let the banhammer out and/or fix some stuff.

One thing is to use autoclicker to drink thousands of eggnogs without killing your mouse, whilst cheating against other players - or exploiting the system for outright rewards - is quite serious, even though it's 'only a game'.

e: agreed with bhavv down there about macros. Still, there should be an official statement on macros from keyboards and programs.

The thing about macros is that if a person pays for an expensive macro keyboard for their games, why shouldnt they be allowed to use it? Everyone has the opportunity to do this, and some people might have legitimate reasons like fractured arms / disability and macros could allow them to play and enjoy the game.

As long as they are sat at the keyboard and pressing keys, I have no issue with macros (I dont use macros as I can play well without them, but others can if they want to).

One Year ago it was possible to beat those macros with tacitcs/skill.
Nowadays its simply impossible because of the flux.
Awesome idea, Anet, to destroy another game after TA, HB, Costum Brawl etc.

Btw. Even if ur'e hammering on ur space bar like there's no tomorrow, u won't come close to the frequenzy of a macro.

I can confirm that. Usually against non bot teams I'm the first one to pick up present since I pretty much tap my space button like crazy. But for example, earlier today there were american players on euro servers and they picked up the present faster than me each time. It's really not enjoyable to face cheaters like that, it's just too sad that people cheat even in snowball. I guess rewards are just too important and since Anet doesn't even try to stop them they'll just keep abusing over and over again.

The reason the PvE-ers are around is because the rewards outstrip what they could collect playing PvE. You'd still have the serious guilds that just want to play, as well as the afk guilds. It's the mediocre competition in the middle that would disappear.

The issue is that the keyboard will straight outperform anything a real human can do by legitimately pressing keys. Are you also arguing that they should be allowed to run drop-and-dodge bots and the like? Both produce results that a legitimate player cannot reproduce, and both are therefore cheating given the context of zero-sum PvP.

Macros are fine if they enable sloth; it's when they enable clearly superior play that they cross the line.

It's been a problem for years, people have been very vocal, and they still haven't done anything about it.

They've banned for this sort of thing in the past IIRC, but there will never be an official statement because that would imply responsibility to solve the problem.

Everything players do in PvE exploits systems created by the developer for rewards. There's a clear line between abusing developer idiocy and cheating. Cheating denies other players rewards they would otherwise earn; abuse of systems does not. The semantic problem is that we've conflated things such as duping (which abuse developer idiocy) with cheating in common parlance. (This happened because things like duping have serious effects on wealth that spill over into who owns what.)

What we need is a clear set of rules that tells us how we can and cannot abuse screwed up systems, and a developer that will stand behind those rules. ANet's stance that "common sense" should be the standard is so laughably terrible that I won't demolish it again here.

Debatable. Match manipulation is essentially defined as not making a good faith effort to win. A pure afkway is pretty obviously in violation. They make no effort to win, which is equivalent to throwing the match.

Things get into a gray area once you start talking about teams that have afks but still try to win.

Want to cut down on bots?...Simple remove the rewards! Most of ya'll say you play for the fun of it anyhow. Take the rewards out of PvP and ppl won't have as much of a reason to bot it.

Yet, I doubt many will agree with this b/c they non-vocally play for the rewards.

Bots are obviously an issue, however removing the rewards and playing for "fun" would make it almost a non entity event for most people. Clearly most people play for it for the rewards and for the challenge in some cases.

Regardless its been like this for years from what I have seen, not much we can do about it since im sure Anet knows what the issues are and its up to them to rectify it.

Pol

Aren't you usually in favor of increasing rewards as a way for promoting activity?

Just to make it clear, I'm not disagreeing - I feel like the disproportionate rewards are taken advantage far more by those exploiting than by the casual audience that is theoretically supposed to be attracted by them.

The current rewards are definitely far higher than they deserve to be. I would rather they be lowered so that farmers can profit better from the typical event farms (Raptors, Vaettir, PvE Snowball Thing) and would thus generally go there.

It's a "Catch 22". Yes I am for increased rewards in reg PvP, but it'll increase bad things such as bots/smurfing/etc. I am not for severly increased reward for tournies....like the ones we have now.

I agree with Ariena...keep the higher rewards in PvE where the bots don't interfere with the players as much.

That's probably the best idea, but it still leads to an infinite circle.. Make better rewards in PvE and people will go bot there, thus PvP is going to lack players, thus normal PvP'ers won't be able to get a match and the place will be inactive, thus people will come to sync for free titles, etc.. leading to the same situation as today..

People have been playing for the rewards since there was e-peen to be gained from the ladder and fame to be had in Tombs. In other words, since the beginning.

One major reason there's such a huge number of afk guilds that hasn't been mentioned is the change from 4 members/14 days to 2 members/7 days for ATs. That permits a lot of additional abuses, some of which increase the returns on afkway and henchway dramatically.

It's too bad really. These are the reasons I don't do RBR, SB, FA, JQ, or GvG.

I'm not sure if it would however change anything.. Most of non-playing teams i face are 4 guildies + 4 henchs, but some can be 6-8 afk humans.. Besides, if you consider it's been shown people are syncing Codex alone or HA almost alone, they probably could afford doing an AT alone...Really, earlier i saw some guy was syncing Heroes Ascent( several accounts going and leaving in asian district) and after i won UW some guy faking offline whispered me " hf, i'm raging my map ", and we didn't get any further.. It's about players mentality towards the reward also

Restrictions would today not change anything upon syncers but just annoy some guilds who get a 14 dayers dc, who lack 1 player only , etc....Once again, the problem is only linked to multi launch abuses, i hardly believe someone will find 7 other players willing to just stand and do nothing...

What i however don't get is why those guilds aren't afking GvG At's neither, considering it's still giving some rps( and quite many if you have several accounts..)

The problem with all PvP in general is that its real problems are being ignored... there is no participation based way to rank your experience.... If Anet rewarded respective title points for completing matches in a way that does not involve resign would be helpful for entry level players to find groups.... But to make it more fun and casual... I think Anet needs to host another community "build a bar contest" where x-number of bars are chosen for each class to have the format have fixed bars to choose from, and only these bars... This would cut down on the knowledge base people would need to have and cut down on some of the time burden of coordinating a team, and put people on more even ground by making it about executing that bar and less about whats on that bar.

This may not feel ideal for some of the people, but i think if pve can be dumbed down and titles made less expensive for the sake of ease and playability... the same needs to be done to pvp if its ever going to be revived. Bots and syncing are not a direct problem, they are the product of lack of interest and participation.... People are not playing snowball AT because there is a automated alternative and people generally have a negative view of any PvP that is team coordinated.... Anet either needs to remove rewards or fix things... its not doing anyone any good to have these open exploits except for the people willing to pay real money to exploit them

remove rewards and see the 3 pages dwindle to ~1/2. on the plus side there will be more
gifts/tonics flooding the market since pve'ers will just do that.

how about anet

- tier competition based on team's totaled skill title points. doesn't completely negate smurfing but may help
- limit pickup commands registering at server so bots/macros can't flood the server
- fix the server issue -- if a server can decide which team wins, something is wrong
- monitor the event so you can pick out bots and kill them (in pve as well...)

Bots, cheating, leechers, macros...Yes A-net does need to get their act together to improve the character of this game.

Maybe banning accounts every month will clear up a good bit of trash...ever since those 3500 accounts got banned I have not see another announcement( I could be mistaken here but Im pretty sure I 'm not)...sure they might get the one's and two's ..but that's not enough?

Really hope they monitor the game more closely to make it a better environment to play in.

They really shouldn't be because GWs lacks a macro system within the game itself. Most other games have a system in place where a gaming keyboard with special macro buttons is a very small advantage at best. Mostly they are just extra buttons that keep your key bindings more organized. Sadly Anet didn't take the time to create an in game macro system and now you have people using a legal tactic that risk getting banned. They should formally announce that if you want to use macros you risk getting banned.

On paper, macros aren't "100% legal to use". They're third party software and provide an in-game advantage.

Then again, when there's nobody to enforce the rules, anything goes.

Exactly... Well, some people would deserve a ban though, as most of bot users are usually in addition trollers or bad talkers... Abusers attitude( whether it's words or things like " we lost to a real team, now hf with restarts, we're raging halls " or people waiting you to stop codex to go sync it again) is intolerable and there should be something in /report for those cases...

A more workable set of suggestions that would actually fix the problems:

- Eliminate item dropping/pickup entirely. Automatically assign the item to the nearest enemy team member legal to pick up (ie: not KD'd/engaged in an action) within range if the carrier is knocked down, or the nearest such team member if no enemies are within range. Leave it on the ground as normal if no one is legal to pick up. That eliminates the macro/pingwars problem.

- Rearrange the awarding of tournament reward points. AFK guilds exploit the fact that a small number of keys are awarded to each team member if the team finishes in the top 32. Forfeit guilds exploit the fact that a sufficiently large number of guilds will divide into multiple groups, increasing everyone's expected key output. So:

- Have one group with a huge cap. Something like 160 teams is about as many as we've seen, even with forfeits and afks.
- Cut to single elimination for the top 16 and only give TRPs for placement to those teams.
- Instead of giving away 5 TRPs per actual (ie: non-forfeit) win, have an escalating number of TRPs that are awarded for each match win. That way, teams that legitimately play still get their TRPs but the afkways get little or no return at all.

We'd still have drop-and-dodge bots once the flux ends, but reworking the drop/pickup system would help. It wouldn't eliminate the problem, but you'd think people would be smart enough to Icicles and then go hold the carrier's hand.

Any competent GvG/HA guild who has some idea of general PvP gameplay is able to make top 4 or 8 at least in a snowball AT. Losing out to the select few guilds who are very very good at the format. Some players bot, and a lot of people macro, its fairly obvious. Although its nowhere near as big of an issue as many people make out, for the most part people just complain because they lose. Even though they are pretty clueless as to how 8v8 team PvP formats work. Poor communication over vent/teamspeak is one of the biggest differences, not bots.

my guild [QC] did a few snowball AT's at the start of the season, i'll admit now 1 guy on our team is macroing, the other 7 not, yet we would repeatedly get flamed and called bots by teams just because we would beat them 10-0. Then an hour later we would go into the playoffs and lose 10-0 to [LR], surely if we were really botting we would at least cap 1?? Its simply a case of Skillz players > GvG/HA players > PvE players in this format at least.

Whilst bots and macros are problematic, the bigger "problem" is the enormous gulf in skill level between those at the top and everyone else. People just get annoyed when they repeatedly lose and thus come on forums to complain about it. This is particularly true for those players coming from a primarily PvE background, they are very used to winning as there is no real "failure" in pve, combined with very little tactical knowledge and an otherwise limited PvP skillset. These together mean that most people are not used to losing, and then enter an arena where they are going to lose a lot...

Its the same thing that happens in RA, good mesmers for example see a monk get kd'd, and "randomly/predictively" rupt him as soon as he stands up. They power block patient spirit or something and get reported for being a bot, even though they basically just know how to play the game and understand that a lot of players will cast immediately after being KD'd. People regularly confuse experience for a bot. Whilst nobody denies bots exist, they are a very small problem, most people are just clueless as to what constitutes a bot and what does not.

The problem is that most players on guild wars do not PvP regularly enough to understand all the tactics and associated knowledge that better players have. The majority of people who cry about bots have no idea what they are talking about.

I think that Anet should increase the RP rewards for snowball ats so that the people who don't place in top 3 still get some rewards and can stop crying about bots and macros.

I don't understand where all this bot- stuff is coming from, I understand macros are really a big problem and I'm against them but nobody said you could not use them. You basically get to top8 just by picking up the presents.

People crying about drop and dodge bots make me laugh, especially in the recent flux we had; snowballs were so easy to dodge, even from the closest range. You didn't even have to drop the present for that