Fix Unconditionals
MithranArkanere
Them not being unbalanced enough is not a reason to keep them that way.
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
Them not being unbalanced enough is not a reason to keep them that way.
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The only thing I'm hearing is "his toy is prettier than mine, but I can't have his toy, and if I can't have it, no one can."
Uncods are NOT imbalanced, and are not even worth worrying about because there are so little, let alone so little active ones..
lemming
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
Them not being unbalanced enough is not a reason to keep them that way.
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Hobbs
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Originally Posted by lemming
Well, you can't add them to PvP item generation - that would instantly make every PvE physical character obsolete.
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carnage-runner
This is a case of "Anet should or shouldn't do it out of principle." Either they should remove all items that give any unfair advantage no matter how insignificant, or they should leave all items alone. I am a fan of the latter. Most unconditional weapons are on accounts with people who no longer play. Maybe the triple mods will spice up the community again for a little while between now and GW2. They honestly can't hurt, so why bother fretting.
End
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Originally Posted by Hobbs
And every other inherent obsolete except 20_50 and 20wH.
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The efficiency of an unconditional is beat by a 15^50 and a 20v50 with weapon switching.
While it may be a pain to do it's completely possible (spent some time doing it and if I can do it I know those high end pvpers who weapon switch like a boss should have no problem with it). (periods do go outside the parenthesis in that case right?)
So calling them unbalanced is just silly. Unlike triple mod weapons which have the potential (although as far as I'm aware no truly impressive ones exist) to give a continuous extra benefit (i.e. 20/20/+15-1 offhand so they can has a 40/40 high set) which cannot be beaten via weapon switching and what not.
Sooo,
1) unconditionals aren't unbalanced as with a little bit of work they are inferior to weapon switching
2) comparing them to triple mod wands and shiznitz is idiotic because unlike unconditionals they do have the possibility to provide bonuses that are un-replicable or unbeatable by weapon switching.
3) I've failed my energy drink diet
reaper with no name
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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine
The fact of the matter is, that they are not imbalanced at all, since you can outdo them with the 15^50 20_50 combo, thus making them not imbalanced at all, which implies that there should not be any QQ'ing going on at all..
The only thing I'm hearing is "his toy is prettier than mine, but I can't have his toy, and if I can't have it, no one can." Uncods are NOT imbalanced, and are not even worth worrying about because there are so little, let alone so little active ones.. |
15% unconditional + 20_50 is always better than 15^50 + 20_50 (the only difference being that the former doesn't punish you as much when you inevitably mess it up once in a while). This is a fact. If you want to argue that the effort to remove these isn't worth the benefit, well, that may or may not be a legitimate criticism (though I would then be quick to point out that it should be no harder than removing triple mod weapons, which anet has already stated they will do), but to say that there is no imbalance whatsoever (however slight) is like saying that a 20 foot pole is just as long as a 21 foot pole. It is simply incorrect.
I have no personal attachment to this (there are no unconditional scythes), merely an ideological one.
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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth
Stupid joke of a thread. OP - Have you been beaten with an unconditional weapon? Really?
There are NO items in the game which are unbalanced enough to create a significat advantage and to warrant a nerf but some people can QQ about just anything, even the tiniest little bit of imbalance, even if it has practically ZERO impact on the gameplay. Personally I have nothing against having all those omgunfair being used against me in PvP and PvE is in desperate need of more variety - it's a great shame that a large variety of interesting weapons on the market aren't possible drops anymore. I'd suggest something opposite to actually make the game more interesting - bring back the possibility of unconditional damage weapons drop in Tyria! +10-11% - Semi-Rare (like +15/-1degen weapons) +12% - Very rare (like 5x more rare than 11%) +13% - Extreme rare (like 20x more rare than 12%) +14% - ?? a Mystery (maybe someone somewhere will get one) +15% - NO (but don't touch the existing few, they're harmless) |
Ironically, I would have no problem with unconditionals dropping again, so long as all of them did.
Once again, if one is worried about former unconditionals losing their value, I've already pointed out that there are ways around this (put the equivalent of an "I was an original unconditional" label on them to keep them unique).
MithranArkanere
Look at the Zaishen Managerie.
The differences between pets are not that much, but they still are. And PvP characters had no access to them.
Now everyone has access to all pets, and now it's fair.
Even if the purpose of the Menagerie was not really to fix that imbalance, the fact that it was fixed and that being good remains.
The differences between pets are not that much, but they still are. And PvP characters had no access to them.
Now everyone has access to all pets, and now it's fair.
Even if the purpose of the Menagerie was not really to fix that imbalance, the fact that it was fixed and that being good remains.
lemming
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
Look at the Zaishen Managerie.
The differences between pets are not that much, but they still are. And PvP characters had no access to them. Now everyone has access to all pets, and now it's fair. Even if the purpose of the Menagerie was not really to fix that imbalance, the fact that it was fixed and that being good remains. |
I actually don't think that adding a +5-10% unconditional inscription would be a terrible idea, but I have no idea what that would do to the unconditional market.
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
15% unconditional + 20_50 is always better than 15^50 + 20_50 (the only difference being that the former doesn't punish you as much when you inevitably mess it up once in a while). This is a fact. If you want to argue that the effort to remove these isn't worth the benefit, well, that may or may not be a legitimate criticism (though I would then be quick to point out that it should be no harder than removing triple mod weapons, which anet has already stated they will do), but to say that there is no imbalance whatsoever (however slight) is like saying that a 20 foot pole is just as long as a 21 foot pole. It is simply incorrect.
I have no personal attachment to this (there are no unconditional scythes), merely an ideological one. |
And, there are almost no 15% uncods, most are 13% I think..
And they won't drop again, because even if you make them super duper rare, they will cause the one thing Anet always wanted to prevent.. Having stronger weapons than someone else, they just cost shittons of money.. They'll still be worth ~1000 ecto's at first, and Anet's idea was always that you should only pay for purdy-ness not for effectiveness.. Max dmg weapons are found all over the land and can be easily acquired trough collectors..
I know the above paragraph is contradictory, because if it is their idea not to have weapons in their game that give advantages, they should most certainly remove uncods, but the fact of the matter is still that they were meant to exist from the start. Anet only removes items that aren't meant to exist or are caused by bugs/bug exploits. Like the triple mods. They were bugged, and as such, will be removed, uncods aren't bugged, they were meant to be that way in the very beginning, and as such, will not be removed.
Hobbs
There's no proof at all that unconds were implemented intentionally, jus' sayin'.
However, they were certainly removed intentionally and that says a lot about whether they were bugged. I reckon that ANet doesn't have the resources to automatically remove unconds or triple mods so in all likelihood, they're both here for good.
However, they were certainly removed intentionally and that says a lot about whether they were bugged. I reckon that ANet doesn't have the resources to automatically remove unconds or triple mods so in all likelihood, they're both here for good.
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by Hobbs
There's no proof at all that unconds were implemented intentionally, jus' sayin'.
However, they were certainly removed intentionally and that says a lot about whether they were bugged. I reckon that ANet doesn't have the resources to automatically remove unconds or triple mods so in all likelihood, they're both here for good. |
Mcsnake85
In my opinion this is the endless war between rich and poor...
Rich want keep them to gain xxxxe or just to show them,well they are unique and there arent a lot of them.
Poor want to remove because they cant have them,and they have nothing good to show...
Really,stop discuss to a ridicolus damage advantage,because we are speaking about a ridicolous damage :
Player A : 15-22 sword with +15%
Player B : 15-22 sword with +15%^50% Hp
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Full HP or at 50% HP = Same Damage
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Less than 50% Both :
Player A : 15-22 sword with +15%, 15+15%=17 , 22+15%=25 TOTAL = 17-25
Player B : 15-22 sword with +15%^50% Hp, 15+0%=15 , 22+0%=22 TOTAL = 15-22
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2-3 damage of difference.....really OMG,complain for 2/3 damage?Or it is for xxxxxxxe?I BET ON SECOND....
If you dont like all this difference of damage (WOW 2-3 MAKE you a PRO), you can still use a 20%v50% Hp and you deal more damage than a 15% unconditional :
15+20% = 18 , 22+20%=4 , TOTAL = 18-26 (VS 17-25 of uconditional).
Now...tell me i wrong : It is all for ectos? YES IT IS
Rich want keep them to gain xxxxe or just to show them,well they are unique and there arent a lot of them.
Poor want to remove because they cant have them,and they have nothing good to show...
Really,stop discuss to a ridicolus damage advantage,because we are speaking about a ridicolous damage :
Player A : 15-22 sword with +15%
Player B : 15-22 sword with +15%^50% Hp
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Full HP or at 50% HP = Same Damage
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Less than 50% Both :
Player A : 15-22 sword with +15%, 15+15%=17 , 22+15%=25 TOTAL = 17-25
Player B : 15-22 sword with +15%^50% Hp, 15+0%=15 , 22+0%=22 TOTAL = 15-22
--------------------------------------------
2-3 damage of difference.....really OMG,complain for 2/3 damage?Or it is for xxxxxxxe?I BET ON SECOND....
If you dont like all this difference of damage (WOW 2-3 MAKE you a PRO), you can still use a 20%v50% Hp and you deal more damage than a 15% unconditional :
15+20% = 18 , 22+20%=4 , TOTAL = 18-26 (VS 17-25 of uconditional).
Now...tell me i wrong : It is all for ectos? YES IT IS
chessyang
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Originally Posted by Mcsnake85
It is all for ectos? YES IT IS
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Honestly I want a WinterGreens Spear but don't want to pay 100e+++ for it. So i'll start a thread "Bring back Inscription Candy Cane weapons Because i wansn't around in 2006"
Hobbs
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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine
They had the resources to remove them all from the game when they removed the possibility for them to drop in the first place. The game was 2 weeks old and there was not that big a playerbase, and the items could've been easily traced and removed. They didn't do it back then, because they didn't want to, and they still won't do it, because of all the reasons summed up before.
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Mcsnake85
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Originally Posted by Hobbs
I'm still not convinced of Anet's ability to delete/modify randomly generated items on the Live servers.
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But im sure they cant, and they suck bad...
BTW, dont need delete them or modify, they dont give advantages in game and they are even worst than 2 set +15^50 +20v50....
They have only the power to call ectos.
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by Mcsnake85
In my opinion this is the endless war between rich and poor...
Rich want keep them to gain xxxxe or just to show them,well they are unique and there arent a lot of them. Poor want to remove because they cant have them,and they have nothing good to show... Really,stop discuss to a ridicolus damage advantage,because we are speaking about a ridicolous damage : Player A : 15-22 sword with +15% Player B : 15-22 sword with +15%^50% Hp ------------------------------------------- Full HP or at 50% HP = Same Damage ------------------------------------------- Less than 50% Both : Player A : 15-22 sword with +15%, 15+15%=17 , 22+15%=25 TOTAL = 17-25 Player B : 15-22 sword with +15%^50% Hp, 15+0%=15 , 22+0%=22 TOTAL = 15-22 -------------------------------------------- 2-3 damage of difference.....really OMG,complain for 2/3 damage?Or it is for xxxxxxxe?I BET ON SECOND.... If you dont like all this difference of damage (WOW 2-3 MAKE you a PRO), you can still use a 20%v50% Hp and you deal more damage than a 15% unconditional : 15+20% = 18 , 22+20%=4 , TOTAL = 18-26 (VS 17-25 of uconditional). Now...tell me i wrong : It is all for ectos? YES IT IS |
I, and most others want to keep them out of principle.. They aren't hurting anyone, and they never will. So please keep the "it's for the money" crap outside..
I am a fan of rare and interesting weapons, like dual inscr shields (the couple I can afford) or cool uninscr shields in general. I am also intrigued by the triplemods, but they are gonna be removed.. They say.. Uncods is on that list of interesting stuff and I like them for what they are.. Unusual, not because I have one..
Mcsnake85
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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine
Another bullshit reply.. I don't own a uncod, and I never will. I will never even desire to own one, because indeed, it's a waste of money..
I, and most others want to keep them out of principle.. They aren't hurting anyone, and they never will. So please keep the "it's for the money" crap outside.. I am a fan of rare and interesting weapons, like dual inscr shields (the couple I can afford) or cool uninscr shields in general. I am also intrigued by the triplemods, but they are gonna be removed.. They say.. Uncods is on that list of interesting stuff and I like them for what they are.. Unusual, not because I have one.. |
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by Mcsnake85
Well,you dont keep them for sell..but other yes..SO you cant say BULLSHIT, because HIGH END SELL is full of rare modded things..probably there are other 1000 ppl like you,but there is an equal number of ppl that want them to get xxxxxxxxxe...Say im wrong pls....
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Mcsnake85
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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine
I'd like to, but I don't understand what you're saying.. I read it 8 times and still didn't figure it out yet..
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I try to explain better, i hope to write better now :
You want Rare Items to collect them, right? so you buy everything just to keep and add in your collection right?
Ok,there are other ppl like you that dont need money or e or ambrace, and want buy JUST to keep them..
BUT there are other ppl that dont want those item nered or deleted or modified, JUST TO SELL and gain xxxxxe or money or ambrance...if you look in HIGH END section you can find a lot of ppl selling them...
I hope you can understand now =)
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by Mcsnake85
well sorry about that,im not english and im still learn..
I try to explain better, i hope to write better now : You want Rare Items to collect them, right? so you buy everything just to keep and add in your collection right? Ok,there are other ppl like you that dont need money or e or ambrace, and want buy JUST to keep them.. BUT there are other ppl that dont want those item nered or deleted or modified, JUST TO SELL and gain xxxxxe or money or ambrance...if you look in HIGH END section you can find a lot of ppl selling them... I hope you can understand now =) |
The thing is, there hasn't been an uncod for sale for like.. 2 years I think.. So that argument is totally invalid.. Most of them are stored on inactive accounts, and the few that are active and not customized are most likely not gonna be sold anyway.. We're talking about 2, maybe max 5 active uncusto'd weapons.. So, there are really not that much around to make all this hassle about..
If YOU would look in the high end section, you would find that there isn't a single uncod for sale atm, and you won't find one that has been recently..
There is no market for uncods, there is no profit to gain, so money REALLY isn't the issue here, and people who keep insisting should do some research first..
Mcsnake85
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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine
I think you mean that there are people that buy them to use them (for your information, most uncods are custo'd, so yeh, they're for keepers) and some want them so they can buy them and sell them for profit. And you're claiming that those ppl are the ones that don't want them nerfed, because they want to make profit...
The thing is, there hasn't been an uncod for sale for like.. 2 years I think.. So that argument is totally invalid.. Most of them are stored on inactive accounts, and the few that are active and not customized are most likely not gonna be sold anyway.. We're talking about 2, maybe max 5 active uncusto'd weapons.. So, there are really not that much around to make all this hassle about.. If YOU would look in the high end section, you would find that there isn't a single uncod for sale atm, and you won't find one that has been recently.. There is no market for uncods, there is no profit to gain, so money REALLY isn't the issue here, and people who keep insisting should do some research first.. |
Why ppl want nerf them or complaining about them? as i said they deal just 2/3 points of extra damage ONLY when both are lower than 50% hp....
AND they deal LESS Damage than a 20v50 mod...I cant find any other reason sorry..
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by Mcsnake85
Well, lets suppose it is like you said...
Why ppl want nerf them or complaining about them? as i said they deal just 2/3 points of extra damage ONLY when both are lower than 50% hp.... AND they deal LESS Damage than a 20v50 mod...I cant find any other reason sorry.. |
And some want them gone out of idealism..
I can assure you, when it comes to uncods, there is no money involved, because they aren't gonna be sold. Ever.. Most are customized, and the little that aren't are either on inactive accounts, or the owner is never even considering to sell it..
Volo
if u really want to nerf something try nerfing the q7/8 max armor shields lol (sorry red) cuze they give unfair advantage in pvp lol... but come on >.< how many of those will u find out there and how many time do u think u will encounter someone with one. so this is a stupid thread
Hyozanryu Sanada
No one in high end gvg is gonna switch to a 20v50 set lol...
If your HP is below safe levels the you should be healed lmao.
-Paul Yang
If your HP is below safe levels the you should be healed lmao.
-Paul Yang
Hobbs
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Originally Posted by Hyozanryu Sanada
No one in high end gvg is gonna switch to a 20v50 set lol...
If your HP is below safe levels the you should be healed lmao. |
Hyozanryu Sanada
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Originally Posted by Hobbs
I don't think you quite understand the argument taking place here.
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Kunder
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Originally Posted by Hyozanryu Sanada
Arguement? The only one who is making the arguement is the OP. Its pretty obvious everyone doesn't want to bother with something as trivial as this. All I'm doing is pointing out to people that weapon swapping between 15^50 and 20v50 is a pretty invalid statement.
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Lasai
a lot of people with high value weapons won't even use the 10g unconditional 20% for customization.
Much ado about nothing.
Much ado about nothing.
MithranArkanere
I'm not saying that a build should be done to fix this, but if a build is done to fix weapons (like the triple mod bug, or the outmoded drops), then this should be addressed too, since they are at it.
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
I'm not saying that a build should be done to fix this, but if a build is done to fix weapons (like the triple mod bug, or the outmoded drops), then this should be addressed too, since they are at it.
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MithranArkanere
They can't be replicated with the PvP item creation panel. That's proof enough.
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
They can't be replicated with the PvP item creation panel. That's proof enough.
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MithranArkanere
Those should be fixed too.
Either added to the PvP upgrade list, or removed from PvE items.
But unconditional can't be added to the list, since they make all other 15^X pointless.
Either added to the PvP upgrade list, or removed from PvE items.
But unconditional can't be added to the list, since they make all other 15^X pointless.
Bright Star Shine
Yeah, and you know what, how about we make every weapon just deal 1 damage, fixed, and all attack skills pointless, because you know ,everything is imbalanced. And, let's remove skins, because it's unfair someone with more money can have a cooler looking weapon than a poor guy. Every shield should be wooden buckler, every sword a Falchion, every hammer Swamp Club etc.. Ohwait, right, that would make this game total shit, wouldn't it?
Don't touch uninscr shields, they are the only thing worth chestrunning for. And as for uncods, have you ever been wtfpwned by a guy with an uncod it PvP? I guess not, nor has anyone for that matter, because they aren't even used in PvP, the only place where they would remotely matter.
So please stop this QQ thread until someone can prove me that uncods were not meant to be and as such should be removed like the triple mods..
What's with ppl and QQing over cool, rare weapons, the only couple things that make this game interesting. If everything would be exactly the same, it would make this game kind of dull, don't you think..
Don't touch uninscr shields, they are the only thing worth chestrunning for. And as for uncods, have you ever been wtfpwned by a guy with an uncod it PvP? I guess not, nor has anyone for that matter, because they aren't even used in PvP, the only place where they would remotely matter.
So please stop this QQ thread until someone can prove me that uncods were not meant to be and as such should be removed like the triple mods..
What's with ppl and QQing over cool, rare weapons, the only couple things that make this game interesting. If everything would be exactly the same, it would make this game kind of dull, don't you think..
Swingline
Let the people who have them keep them. They are such a small advantage its laughable. Besides they are all shit skinned.
Yawgmoth
Nerfing for the sake of nerfing is a horrible idea and QQ'ers seriously have nothing to QQ about (or is it just pure trolling?)
Neither of the unconds happened to be a +16% or higher mod with a removed condition, there's practically NO imbalance at all so no reason to work and nerf what little variety has left in this game. There are still some last rarities which can be collected for variety and even used in play and many many players enjoy them - they're happy to spend loads of ectos on some of them.
Has even 1 person been beaten in pvp by such a weapon when a proper use of 'fair' weapons wouldn't? I really really don't think so.
Can I take XXX ectos and go buy some uber gear and pwn people with the advantage bought? Lol...
No balance problem = no reason to nerf.
I suggest bringing MORE variety to the drops, bring more unique possibilities! The Mausoleum drops were the coolest thing to happen to PvE in the last 5 years. Just key to proper design is not making strictly better (obsoleting what's been top for years is not very GW), so make things different instead of better... and stop making more of the same.
Neither of the unconds happened to be a +16% or higher mod with a removed condition, there's practically NO imbalance at all so no reason to work and nerf what little variety has left in this game. There are still some last rarities which can be collected for variety and even used in play and many many players enjoy them - they're happy to spend loads of ectos on some of them.
Has even 1 person been beaten in pvp by such a weapon when a proper use of 'fair' weapons wouldn't? I really really don't think so.
Can I take XXX ectos and go buy some uber gear and pwn people with the advantage bought? Lol...
No balance problem = no reason to nerf.
I suggest bringing MORE variety to the drops, bring more unique possibilities! The Mausoleum drops were the coolest thing to happen to PvE in the last 5 years. Just key to proper design is not making strictly better (obsoleting what's been top for years is not very GW), so make things different instead of better... and stop making more of the same.
byteme!
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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine
Neither can my +10vFire -2wE shield, or my +10vDemons -2wE shield, or for that matter, any +10vSpecies shield, does that mean they should be removed? DURRRRRRRRRRR
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
Those should be fixed too.
Either added to the PvP upgrade list, or removed from PvE items. But unconditional can't be added to the list, since they make all other 15^X pointless. |
(edit) Don't bother explaining.
Hobbs
A -2wE +10 vs Fire is impossible to create in PvP. But not in PvE. The species mod also applies to damage types.
MithranArkanere
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Originally Posted by byteme!
That's pretty dumb. So lets say Anet adds these +10 vs Species shields to PvP. Who's going to use them? When was the last time you fought a demon/ogre/plant etc... in PvP? Riddle me that.
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The other exceptions are Highly salvageable and Improved sale value.
They have nothing to do with PvP, and there's absolutely no need to have them in the item creation panel since they do not affect PvP in any way. I may have forgotten to mention that such an exception exists, but it's so obvious that you should have done so, instead implying that I was counting them too.
By the way, those properties should exist as PvE-only properties that would appear randomly in weapons, inherent instead as mods. Unlike inscriptions, there's nothing wrong with having them fixed, since they do not affect PvP at all, and there's no need to have them in the PvP-item creation panel.
That would also allow us to fully mod those charrslaying weapons in the hall of monuments. To compensate the extra property, their value should be increased, though.
There's nothing wrong with PvE-only properties if they affect only PvE. It's not like you can have actual balance between players and AI in PvE, by design there's no such thing as balance in PvE fights, with things like all those PvE and monster skills, and the AI flaws, and the insane interrupt reflexes AI has, and the high health, energy, attributes and armor AI enemies have.
But PvE-only properties are the only exception.
The exception proves the rule.