Zaishen PuG Rant List

I think it would be more cathartic for GW players to have a rant sheet than to rage on hapless teammates who can do hard mode but still don't know how to play.
I suggest this topic stick to the Z quest/bounty of the day. I'm sure there are things you can say about PuGs in general, but we're talking about the daily 6/8 lf monks to go.

Today's zq: Moddok Crevice

a group of 7 casters and 1 melee, the melee stays in the back

Dunkoro not put on Avoid Combat...

To that special ranger who made my day and inspired this thread, Ebon Vanguard Sin Support is NOT a snare!

Also to that special derv who was 2 aggro circles away from nearest healing....almost has me dreading the derv update.




Please continue this thread, but please don't name names.

Nice leaderships and communication skills. Even if you weren't leader, some of that is your fault. Players including myself can go on and on about how awful bots are.

If you were smart you did Moddok Crevice back in 2005 and you wouldn't have this problemo.

I am a noob. Everyone else is pro. Everyone should be better than me.

Repeat this to yourself every single time you're in a PuG. Also, tell your teammates this also. That way, everyone understands that everything will be your fault and everyone can shut the GO RED ENGINE up if they need to complain.

Anyone who continues to complain after this has been established are elitists. Elitists can find a problem or response to anything, even if it's completely random or unrelated to the task at hand.

PuGs are for pros and noobs. If you're working with an elitist, leave the PuG immediately.

So you'dd rather lose 10 times in a row with incredibly bad players -read: average PvE'er- than win the first try with a guy who might be elitist, and maybe looks down on people, but atleast is capable of carrying the 7 other people.

I, and any sane person, would choose the latter. The problem is that people in PvE have no clue where they stand, skillwise, in position to other people. I did DoA the other day with some random euros who were completely clueless, and insisted on running a Mantra of Frost rit in a regular glaiveway.
Later I discovered that every team has atleast 3 of people who have absolutely no clue how Guild Wars works, and they really are better off just getting carried by other people.

As for Zaishen PuG:

I decided to tag along a couple of Zquest mission groups a couple of days ago. After 2 attempts in HM, I did it with heroes, twice as fast, first try. It's sad, but pugging 2011 is a terrible experience to go through.

TL;DR of this thread: 95% of guild wars players fail absolutely horribly outside of premade farms on PvX that they can watch tutorials of on Youtube and have practiced at least 50 times (less then 50 times they still fail often). No surprises.

How to deal with PUGS: 6/8 slots are reserved for you, your 3 heroes who will get shit done, and 2 heal/prot henchmen. Anyone you invite to the party is there purely at your pleasure and only needs to outdamage henchmen to be worthwhile. If someone proves themselves to be a shitty person or a shitty player they are kicked.

Mo/Me hero with inspiration is the best energy management a monk hero can have. In any case, avoid combat is usually worse because it causes heroes to run away from their positions. Stop being bad at Guild Wars and kill things before they endanger your monks


They can do knockdown on the first skill they use. Granted, it isn't what you want in Moddok, but it is a snare.

Actually, from my experience, its the PUG monks who suck the most. They will bring some cookie cutter build from wiki, and will not customize bar slightly to task at hand. As a result, when the team gets hit hard, the monks are to blame.

I never do ZM/ZB with pugs on any profession except on my monk. My monking skills are above average, and pugs give me a hard time, which I actually like - better than standing and doing nothing. However, when I play any other profession, I always pick heroes, since only my heroes can keep up with my speed of killing. Also, while monking, I keep my mouth shut as best as I can (i.e. no elitism), and don't guide anyone through the task. I concentrate my effort in keeping the team alive and hold no grudge against bad players with random ineffective bars. If I can finish a challenging dungeon this way, I feel I did well in my role.

You are complaining because of Modok?

Believe me, this is nothing compared to the hell that I've went through for the EoTN dungeons, UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz, and DoA. Even just today I've gotten groups that seem hell-bent on running through 30+ Nettle plant or 20+ Gokir mobs simply because they can't seem to spare the extra 5 minutes to clear out the room. Bogroot Growth is one of the easiest dungeons.

Granted, our killing speed was SLLLOOOWWW because we had 3 f**king eles on our team (in hard mode), but still not a reason to constantly try to sneak past questionable mobs that are 0.5mm away from the aggro circle. Oh yeah, I got 2 gemstones for the effort and 2k in total, without counting the DP removers and Lockpicks I used.../sigh

The run was much better on my second and third character, but that was because we had DwG, SoS, SF, MM and mesmers instead. Anet better not nerf any of those.

Nothing he said had to do with the skill or the knowledge of the player. Elitism is a different issue.

Please don't make this "this is why I hate Pug's and never play them" thread. This is a "I PuG because I USUALLY enjoy playing with other people and these idiots ruined the experience"

To be honest, you have no right to complain about pugs. When you pug, you should know exactly what youre getting yourself in to, and thats an hour of hell in the easiest of missions. If you truly wish to have a relaxing and fast ZM, ZB, etc, h/h it.

That would be pretty boring for some players, hell for others who hate AI, and a bad choice for those who are poor with heroes. This isn't really what this topic is about, but it'll for sure end up into this sort of discussion.

I understand that h/hing isnt for everyone, but the fact remains that pugging isnt the only option available to players. If pugs frustrate you, stop pugging and start h/hing

Honestly, if I didn't want to play with people I'd be playing Neverwinter Nights or one of many non-human interactive rpgs available.

BTW, here's what I don't get. Why does a person who dislikes playing with random people, go on forums about the game to discuss the game with random people?

Also 9 times out of 10, a PuG works just fine. Oh there are a few missions where I've learned to avoid pugs (Assault on the Stronghold and the inevitable team scatter when the saurus arrives).

This thread serves 2 purposes, it allows you to post a "the stupidest thing I saw someone do today" and might remind someone who is going to do the mission in a bit of things not to do.

Ok first off, if you are thinking of Moddok Crevice, you might remember that the corsairs cast toxicity on the ramp and if you attack it they'll rush up the stairs and attack you from behind. Which normally would not be too bad except for the derv I mentioned aggroing sh!t 3 circles away. Heroes always attack it so you make your hero avoid combat and flag him past the spirit.

And you pointed out exactly what was wrong with it with your comment. "it isn't waht you want in Moddok" exactly! You summon the sin and the spotter is an aggro circle away from him by the time he finished rezzing. Just about everyone who isn't a mental case who has access to Ebon Sin has YMLAD, which is a snare in every sense of the word.

Whenever I end up on a bad PUG...

...I just take over.
You don't even need to write much. Just some doodles in the radar, a 'look at radar' warning that the other party members echo if they don't follow the radar, and they end up follow whatever you say.

I made SoO in HM with a PUG doing that. I had to carry the torches and doodle them to pick them, because they had no idea about them, but we didn't go a single wipe, few deaths (even against Fendi), and it tooks us less than 40 minutes, so it wasn't so bad.

I monk for PUGs which have the worst monks in the game, in hard mode. I even did Vloxen, Shards of Orr, and others. It's fun actually since you get to do things the non-meta way like old times. Sucks if you want to get things done fast though.

I do try to help people with their builds using the skills they already have, so I feel like it's better than forcing people to use PvX when they may not have access to the places for the skills or are too cheap/broke for the skills.

Moddock Crevice is henchable even in Hard mode, just bring Deep Freeze + YMLAD.

Most PvX monk hero builds run on Guard mode, since they need to be for Leech signet/Power Drain.

Except this is about ZQuests, which cycle every few weeks.

This is a prime example of why i just H/H

the AI is dumb, but I've learned players can be dumber

/thread

I pretty much never PuG, yet i can complete nearly anything in HM with h/h (+ a friend or two sometimes) without damaging my own nerves and getting annoyed by the playskill of people around. And yeah, in most cases relying fully on PvX isn't the way to go.

This. I usually have good experiences with pugs, but sometimes it's just bad. What some teams lack is just a good leader. If you feel your pug is failing and you know the dungeon/mission/etc. very well, then go on and guide them (while still showing respect). If you see someone doing something wrong, just tell him and he will learn. Today's Zaishens were just terrible for me, so I tried to take over and make things right (and it worked).

What I'm trying to say is : a highly skilled player is just as useless as a clueless player if he can't guide him and teach him how to play.

except nightfall didn't come out until 2006.

I generally have good to tolerable experiences in PUGs. I've managed to roll through some of the hardest areas of the game with a PUG. However, every 4th or 5th time I end up in a group of morons, generally consisting of one or more of the following:

1. Warrior with tormented shield (every time) who runs off to aggro every group of enemies, despite not having any tank-ish skills.
2. Guy who brings along a lvl 5-7 pet in HM and won't stop rezing it every 5 seconds.
3. Person who refuses to ping build then complains when it turns out someone who did is stepping on their toes. (even better if its a SOS rit!)
4. MM necro who stands way too close to the action. (Oh god, Minions everywhere!)
5. Leader who forgets to leave space in the party for monks/healers ("Ok let's all just bring a self-heal, guys!"
6. Impatient monk who quits if the party's not immediately ready to leave upon his joining.
7. For dungeons: Guy who ragequits as soon as the party wipes, regardless of the situation.

Any one of those is sure to ruin your PUG experience.

I totally agree.
Last night I did a HM Zbounty with a pug.
I noticed from the first minute, the group I was in was terrible at communicating with each other. No discussing about what route to take, no target calling... in fact, no one saying a word almost.

After a few wipes inside the dungeon, I got rather furious.
I didn't ragequit, I didn't yell... but I started calling targets in the order that I deemed necessary to kill.

The problem with being a leader I think, is some people (by the looks of it "most", when in a bad party), don't dare to take responsibility. But if a party is already failing in the first five minutes... it cannot get any more worse if you try.

If you have basic knowledge about the game: target calling, pulling and agroing, conditions and some awareness of your enviroment then don't be afraid to be a leader if you see no one else moving a finger to try and make the best of it.

I wasn't that good of a leader though. (or maybe one that took it upon himself to late), cause afterwards I realized... 2 had two healers, but not one of them was prot.
And that in HM...

But atleast I tried. (where one just d/c'ed and took he easy way out) And in the end it worked out to.

Now i suddenly want to pick up my main monk again and go for another round of effortless zaishen pug completing with her.

You shouldn't give a player any flag for forgetting to set Dunkoro to avoid combat. It's a completely understandable mistake. Every single time I do Moddok Crevice there's always someone who reminds the one using Dunkoro to set him to avoid combat.

Using EVAS as a snare... LOL.

Moddock Crevice is actually easy. Next one is gloom in HM that will probably be done by dwg teams while other will fail big time. No problem for me to tank gloom in hm but the main question is will I do it? While doing zm/zb with pugs I notice that pugs tends to bring heavy aggro breaker spells or ebon assasin that for me as a tank will be a big problem in gloom. Since the dwg era I it started to be almost imposible to do foundry/gloom the old ways.
I really wait to see how people will use cons in gloom and die at first group of mobs :)) .
I end up bringing my father to gw (he is not even a decent player) but he listen, I set up his heroes and usually there are no problems.

Regarding Moddock Crevice, as far as I know you can kill the corsairs, ignoring Dunkoro second suggestion and still get bonus.

Rage quit is funny, it's even funnier when it happenes when you have only 1-2 groups left to kill and you see how 5 of them just leave, you remain in 3 no healer no res and you do it .

Also the problems with ele damage in HM is not cause of ele, it's cause atm ele damage in HM is one of the worst posible .

I think the whole "skillfulness" matter is blown out of proportion. I don't see such a huge difference in player skill in PvE that should warrant complaining. It's not like any task in the game is so difficult that only a group of hard pros can complete it.

I'm thankful enough to have already earned my Legendary Guardian, so my regular pugging days are over. These days I only tend to bother with the easier/faster ZMs/ZBs so it's pretty much impossible to hit a pug that can't do it.

Imperial Sanctum the other day for example was actually quite interesting with many people bringing some random builds to just blunder their way to victory.

I love this one. And especially when they don't believe me when I say that a dead pet always gets XP, even when it's outside radar range.

That's pretty much exactly what I do as well.

Yesterday was one of the worst z-missions in quite a while now though, as far as PUGs are concerned. Probably because it involved more than jsut brainless killing ..

I think you enjoy getting into these parties and whining because you can easily h/h all of the zb/zm except a few

To ad to your list of things that can ruin a pug.

8. Monk who leaves if he/she is the only monk in the party, even tho there is for example a resto rit. Sure in some of the harder areas, two monks is prefered, but for easier missions, or for the esier bounties (where the boss is in an explorable area) using other professions for healing works just as well.
9. Random player starting to rant about another teammates build half way through the mission/dungeon even tho said build was pinged and accepted befor you started.
10. Ppl who absolutely have to open every chest in the area, and, instead of asking if we can clear extra mobs for chests, simply runs away on their own, pulling tons of mobs, setting off popups etc etc just to get to the chest, or to uncover hidden treasures with LoD.
11. And ofc the ever to hated leechers/AFK'ers who thinks they can get a free run through the dungeon while they stand behind at the entrance pretending to be AFK.
12. The folks who happily go AFK in mid combat without saying anything.
13. Beggers who want the rest of the group to hand him/her good weapons that drops from mobs/chests/bosses because said person "needs it more" than the person who actually got it. And ofc wont shut up about it even tho told no several times.
14. Ppl who seem to have a good skillbar, but once you start the dungeon/mission, only uses one or two skills, or simply auto attacks in hopes of getting carried around without having to do much at all.
15. Ppl who dont know what their skills do, with the result of using them completely wrong. (Yes i can understand some ppl have a hard time with english, or wutever language they use in gw, but it can still ruin a pug.)
16. Ppl who dont seem to know how to use the chat, at all, and wont reply what so ever when the rest of the team tries to talk to the person, or dont even react when their name is called.
17. Ppl who rush even tho the healers says they cant keep up with the pressure, and then said person rants like a mother when the team wipes.
18. Ppl who claims they know exactly what to do and knows which way to go, even tho it turns out they dont have a bloody clue.
19. Ppl who joins a group with the intention to leave once they've got the items they wanted/killed the boss they needed, even tho that wasnt the end of the dungeon. This includes ppl who joins a pug even tho they know from the start that they wont have time to finish it, and then ends up leaving half way through.
Example: Group is made for a full DoA clear, everyone seem to be aware that its a full run, and everyone agrees to it. However, this day, the ZB is the stygian lords. The group starts, its going fairly good, but once the stygian lords are down, one or more players leave, cause that was all they needed to complete the ZB, leaving the rest of the team with maybe lots of wasted time, wasted consets/other consumables and no choice but to start over again finding new ppl.
20. Ppl who absolutely have to pick on others, no matter what its about, if maybe the character has ugly hair, ugly armor, ugly weapons, or the choice of profession.
21. Ppl tho intentionally wipe the team for pure fun. This includes runners/ppl who invites survivors to the team, and then intentionally gets them killed just for the fun of seeing someones hard work be wasted.

If you don't like pugs or think most pugs are terrible, why join one, then come here and bullet list why they are bad? Everyone has their opinion about the quality of pugs. When most of the time is spent with H/H, very few will know what to do in a pug. You can micro, or not, your H/H team, where with pugs, you will hope they will do the right thing.

With pugs, you get what you get. Look for bad in a group, you will find it. No reason to tell everyone how bad they were. Look for the good, and you have a good/great time, and no one will probably hear about it.

"Guild Wars Nightfall is the third campaign of Guild Wars, released on October 27, 2006"

Cool time machine bro.

You'll probably make the excuse that you typoed that instead of 2006, but HM wasn't released till 2007, so there'd still be reason to do it beyond that even if it weren't for the Zquest, which this whole thread is about.

The snide one-liner thing doesn't really work when you expose yourself as a total moron, fyi.

Terrible builds. Although I haven't played in awhile, I respect people's innovation to an extent, as I too look beyond meta builds. However, players should never use their creativity as an excuse for a subpar build.

I've seen #1 with dervish/sin. I don't mind if you're melee and want to outsource all self-support for a full offense bar, but if you die I don't blame the PUG monk.

#5 I cannot believe how many times this happens. I'll add: leader accepting random anyones when your party lacks [wanted role], and there's one LFG.

#6 is nostalgia to me. My oldest PUG memories are of hoping no one in the party upsets them because I couldn't do the missions on my own.

http://mikeofwffguild.blogspot.com

You have to dig back in the archives a bit, but there's pretty much a whole thread on this blog about annoyingly terrible things I discovered whilst pugging things.

I'm not saying I can H/H *everything* and that my word is gospel, but I am a capable player and had to have somewhere to vent frustration. I pugged my 10 guardians BECAUSE my guild was dead and because the good teams could get stuff done so much easier.

Just about everyone can H/h the entire game now. You can at the very least, 2 humans and heroes everything for certain unless you are utterly clueless.

Every 5 posts is someone saying "this is why I h/h everything".

Which makes me wonder, why you even open a forum post about PuGs unless you are Devona's chosen Prophet. Sent to this world to preach the ways of playing a multi-player game completely by yourself 100% of the time.



Let me reiterate, nearing the game's 6th anniversary, 4 years of HM, and 2 years of Zaishen quests....you actually find that 90% of the people you PuG with are pretty good 90% of the time.

Whenever you PuG you get 2 derps who aren't that good, but the rest pulls the group through.

This thread is for that special moment, when you get 4-6 people in the PuG who are hopelessly ill-equipped and clueless.

I really don't see a point in making a thread to complain about pugs...