Update - 2/17
Hells Fury
Dissect other people posts less. It's ugly, painful to read.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Damian Manson
The whole point in the matter is the game IS NOT being played by the survivor char to gain that experiance as intended for the survivor title.
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| survivor for all intents and purposes was never meant to be a title that you could out right buy like sweets or party or the many other titles you can buy. |
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| It just happens that 2 quests offered the possibility to buy the title out right unfortunately. |
lemming
Go argue about the morality of buying hammers for Survivor in Off Topic or something.
Coast
Lol, u can steamroll through pve without dying if u don't suck too much RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.
All u need is proper play(and prot spirit helps too lol).
All u need is proper play(and prot spirit helps too lol).
AngelWJedi
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Originally Posted by Coast
Lol, u can steamroll through pve without dying if u don't suck too much RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.
All u need is proper play(and prot spirit helps too lol). |
Malganis
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Originally Posted by Damian Manson
The difference between kath hammers/ooze thingy and doing things with scrolls is with kath hammers you do nothing to gain that experiance pretty much where doing kilroy or wurms you actually have to kill things your self to gain the experiance the scrolls only make the process that little less painfull.
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How is that so difficult to understand?
ensoriki
and so what if you buy unidentified golds from player instead of buying them from players you didn't work for the wisdom title either?
It's the same crap, different pile.
has anyone formed a list of skills dervish heroes are balls with?
Flash enchantments just aren't working and they will kill stuff like fateful intervention.
It's the same crap, different pile.
has anyone formed a list of skills dervish heroes are balls with?
Flash enchantments just aren't working and they will kill stuff like fateful intervention.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Malganis
And here is my whole opinion on the matter. If you're playing Fronis Irontoe's lair or killing wurms outside Boreal Station, its your character doing the work, killing the foes. If you're buying Kath Hammers or Gelatinous Material, your character is not doing the work to earn the title.
How is that so difficult to understand? |
Said powertrader decides to get a title, and using his gameplay method, acquires enough cash to buy the title.
It just happens to be Kath Hammers and Survivor.
Different playstyle, different methodology, hell different philosophy even, but its valid. This character in essence survived by being smart, and letting others take the risk for him.
Same guy could also pay someone to level his character while he's afk using XP scrolls and buying levels. Different method, but same input (money) and same output (XP/Survivor).
How is that so difficult to understand?
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
has anyone formed a list of skills dervish heroes are balls with?
Flash enchantments just aren't working and they will kill stuff like fateful intervention. |
OgGjkyrDLTbXSXRXBYihiejezkA
Always use PR before any attack skill or PF, and away you go!
Dzjudz
And how are heroes going to use the 3 PvE skills?
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Dzjudz
And how are heroes going to use the 3 PvE skills?
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That was my bad, missed the "heroes" bit. Go ahead and /ignore it. The only hero build that's marginally working for me is a Dwayna Flasher for heals and such, but it seems suboptimal to a N/Rt healer so far.
Voodoo Rage
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
and so what if you buy unidentified golds from player instead of buying them from players you didn't work for the wisdom title either?
It's the same crap, different pile. |
That being said, the Kathandrax Hammer should NOT be tradable, BUT no one should lose a title from it retroactively.
Perkunas
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Same guy could also pay someone to level his character while he's afk using XP scrolls and buying levels. Different method, but same input (money) and same output (XP/Survivor). |
All current methods of "safely" reaching legendary survivor have been around awhile. I may or may not agree with all the methods available, but see no reason to eliminate any particular one of them at this point. After all the noise made in this thread, the methods may be looked at, should the survivor title be revised.
shoyon456
Really? Arguing about whether hammers should be usable to get survivor? That might be a reasonable argument ages ago before NF, but boxing and other methods have made that title a joke. I did it in my spare time one afternoon. The fact is that that title could always have been acomplishable easily by paying for it in some way. The difference now is that you have to be remarkably lazy to buy hammers when you could just box your way to it in no time flat. In fact, I'm convinced it would take longer to find people selling the hammers than to box your way to max survivor.
I don't think you're getting it... The Dervish isn't supposed to be a healer. AoD wasn't changed so the Dervish could be a baller healer. It was changed so that the Dervish could provide marginal healing support while melee'ing, the primary focus. Of course a pure Derv healer is going to be suboptimal, its not meant to be a pure healer.
Edit: But a group full of AoD Derv's might just provide some baller healing. I haven't had enought time to do some proper new Dervish testing, damn college.
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Badly?
That was my bad, missed the "heroes" bit. Go ahead and /ignore it. The only hero build that's marginally working for me is a Dwayna Flasher for heals and such, but it seems suboptimal to a N/Rt healer so far. |
Edit: But a group full of AoD Derv's might just provide some baller healing. I haven't had enought time to do some proper new Dervish testing, damn college.
Swingline
Survivor is so easy to get by either boxing or just buying it with kath hammers that I dont care what they do with it. Making the xp for it reset upon death is just trying to make getting r3 fun instead of grinding for it. Besides many ppl I know lost it by lag or they got d/c and came back dead. I laughed when one of my friends got to 1.3 mil then lagged in boxing and got KO'ed. He never came back to Guild Wars lol.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
I don't think you're getting it... The Dervish isn't supposed to be a healer. AoD wasn't changed so the Dervish could be a baller healer. It was changed so that the Dervish could provide marginal healing support while melee'ing, the primary focus. Of course a pure Derv healer is going to be suboptimal, its not meant to be a pure healer. Edit: But a group full of AoD Derv's might just provide some baller healing. I haven't had enought time to do some proper new Dervish testing, damn college. |
My post was meant as a makeup response for missing his question in the first place heh.
All I meant by it was that SO FAR the Hero AI is not using the new skills properly. They don't seem to prioritize stripping flash enchants over buff enchants for example.
And since the general melee AI is pretty terrible, a midline healer/buffer is about as good as I've come up with so far. Slapping Meditation and OoP works decently for a melee heavy team, and given that the healing is allies as well and pretty decent AoE, means any MMs can forego healing skills.
I'm sure ANet will do something about it, and while we may not see a full melee AI buff for Heroes, we may at least get them to only use teardown skills with "flagged" enchants.
Angel Killuminati
One thing for sure is the Dervish needs to be looked at closely in PvP. Those who know what they are doing can spam devastating attack skills whilst getting 50-60hp back with every attack. Played against a bunch of these 'life stealers' yesterday and they are almost invincible.
AngelWJedi
So does this mean someone will go to pve and wipe clean the derv section? i saw a lot that wont work now thanks to this update.
some guy
The new PvP dervish updates are garbage
T1Cybernetic
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Originally Posted by some guy
The new PvP dervish updates are garbage
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Motoko
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Originally Posted by T1Cybernetic
Vague post is Vague.
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People should enjoy it while they can.
go cubs
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Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko
An update like this allows players who are very bad to be far better than they could ever hope to have become by means of actual skill.
People should enjoy it while they can. |
How is this different than anything else?
Motoko
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Originally Posted by go cubs
How is this different than anything else?
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He asked for clarification, I gave him more clarification, however vague.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko
An update like this allows players who are very bad to be far better than they could ever hope to have become by means of actual skill.
People should enjoy it while they can. |
This update has forced people to re-think the class and the mechanics are both different and a bit more complex. If nothing else, using a teardown build forces the player to be aware of his buffbar.
Its sort of like when Sins first came out. Most were horrible, but a few excelled and showed how good the class could be.
I for one am loving the update, its made the Dervish both more engaging and a lot more fun.
MithranArkanere
THis is as simple as it gets.
Before the update, people used mostly 15 of the dervish skills, and never touched the rest.
Now, there are uses for most of them.
Comparared with the rest of professions, I would say that Dervishes are now the profession with the lowest ratio of 'less than useful' skills.
Before the update, people used mostly 15 of the dervish skills, and never touched the rest.
Now, there are uses for most of them.
Comparared with the rest of professions, I would say that Dervishes are now the profession with the lowest ratio of 'less than useful' skills.
Xenomortis
Well that's quite straight forward since they also have lowest number of skills, tied with the Paragon.
FyrFytr998
Resisting the urge to buy another slot just to try Dervish out.
Come on folks. Real talk. Does the update justify the purchase?
Come on folks. Real talk. Does the update justify the purchase?
Motoko
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Right, because before the update, 95% of the Dervish population utilized ZV/Skill Spam which was so skillful and stuff.
This update has forced people to re-think the class and the mechanics are both different and a bit more complex. If nothing else, using a teardown build forces the player to be aware of his buffbar. Its sort of like when Sins first came out. Most were horrible, but a few excelled and showed how good the class could be. I for one am loving the update, its made the Dervish both more engaging and a lot more fun. |
That is the problem. You don't even have to be on the optimal target to be effective with the build.
The question isn't just "Is the dervish more fun and effective that made it recently fun?"... It is also the ridiculous abilities that come with sich overpowered skills.
So are you having fun with the new mechanics? Or are you just having fun with the fact you look like you are skillfully effective in this game? If both... figure out the ratio between the two.
Swingline
Maybe some of the other classes will get a rework to compensate for the dervish being OP. Some more than others need it and the lead designer said surprises are in store.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko
People have not re-thought anything about the class. The same people that I am pointing out as bad, have not all of a sudden developed some sort of distinct skill. The skills are more powerful and all that is required is a spam of the skill set on a character to be moderately effective.
That is the problem. You don't even have to be on the optimal target to be effective with the build. The question isn't just "Is the dervish more fun and effective that made it recently fun?"... It is also the ridiculous abilities that come with sich overpowered skills. So are you having fun with the new mechanics? Or are you just having fun with the fact you look like you are skillfully effective in this game? If both... figure out the ratio between the two. |
Or are you just sad that Dervs are no longer relegated to the trash heap?
Its funny how people don't realize that their subjective "truth" is only so according to them. Dervs only seem powerful now because they've been brought in line with the rest of the melee, where before they were struggling badly, not just in comparable damage but also in build variety.
As to your skilfully effective comment? Its hard to be effective with a class who's total number of EFFECTIVE SKILLS until the update amounted to about 15% of its total skill set. Now, with almost all having a use in some sort of build, the variety is greatly expanded such that many more Dervish builds, and consequently the Dervish's image and its players do seem to play better.
If you're going to sit there and criticize a class, at least know what you're doing. There is as much skill involved in playing a teardown Dervish as there is an Elebonder, or MM, or whatever. The only class that took actual player skill in my mind was the old Mesmer, as you had to be quick thinking and quicker reflexes. Now that they got their update, they're much more powerful, and more in line with what your original complaint was about.
The difference between Mesmer and Derv though is that the Mesmer fills a unique role, combining interrupts, FC and armor ignoring damage out the wazoo. The Dervish even WITH the update is struggling because the class mechanics are new, meaning people don't have a total handle on it yet, and it STILL has to compete with other melee in more established roles, both in game and the players' mindsets.
lemming
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Dervs only seem powerful now because they've been brought in line with the rest of the melee, where before they were struggling badly, not just in comparable damage but also in build variety.
If you're going to sit there and criticize a class, at least know what you're doing. There is as much skill involved in playing a teardown Dervish as there is an Elebonder, or MM, or whatever. The only class that took actual player skill in my mind was the old Mesmer, as you had to be quick thinking and quicker reflexes. Now that they got their update, they're much more powerful, and more in line with what your original complaint was about. |
Warriors were regarded as the pinnacle of class design because their primary resource (adrenaline) was something that directly rewarded skillful play. Someone who gets more autoattacks and therefore more damage damage done over time is also going to have a higher rate of adrenaline gain. Warrior's Endurance was killed off because it enabled a bar that completely disregarded this standard, and Escape R/As were derided for this same reason. When your entire bar is populated with attack skills on an insignificant recharge, where the optimal strategy is literally to hit your buttons as soon as they light up because there's basically no drawback for screwing up, there's significantly less skill involved.
Secondly, the fact that IAS and IMS stacked together is an extremely dangerous combination on a melee character should be immediately obvious, seeing as how Primal Rage defined GvG for a year. The interaction between Frenzy and Rush on-Primal warriors was a delicate balance - better players would be able to eke out more attacks in Frenzy without dying. Dervishes don't even need an elite slot for the same effect now - Heart of Fury with any of the flash speed buffs does not even carry the penalty of making you spike bait that at least kind of kept Primal Rage in check.
tl;dr: I'm curious to hear your defense of promoting bad habits in the interest of "change."
Xenomortis
Well to be fair the Derv's got given the adrenaline mechanic which helps a lot.
The readily available IMS's on several flashes combined with a solid IAS stance with no drawback and the easily used Cracked Armour sources are massive boosts that pushes them over the top though.
I do like that they got several things to play with that make them solid characters, but a number of things do need to go and other things need a little tweaking. Crippling Sweep for example is too easy to use with an effect similar to Bull's. But why even bother with that when Aura of Thorns cripples everyone nearby anyway?
The readily available IMS's on several flashes combined with a solid IAS stance with no drawback and the easily used Cracked Armour sources are massive boosts that pushes them over the top though.
I do like that they got several things to play with that make them solid characters, but a number of things do need to go and other things need a little tweaking. Crippling Sweep for example is too easy to use with an effect similar to Bull's. But why even bother with that when Aura of Thorns cripples everyone nearby anyway?
miriforst
Imo allowing flash enchantments into pvp was a bad move considering their power. Even the non elites like grenths aura would still be overpowered with a cast time but when you can only divert a skill and cant interrupt it becomes highly anoying (hint theres a reason why we can't have multiple stances). Usually bar compressive skills are reserved for elites (when you take two skills in one slot) but the dervishes attacks seems to be balanced around enchantments that doesn't do anything. It isn't a sacrifice to strip most of the dervish enchantments but quite the opposite often and still the enchant loss skills seems to be balanced around loosing valuable passive enchantments.
Lets look for example at ebon dust aura (even if it isn't the worst):
Not permanent blind but still in nearby area.
Instant cast, no interrupt can counter like you can with blinding surge.
Removes blind even from a stack of conditions.
And you also deal more earth damage with attacks.
10 sec recharge.
:P
Lets look for example at ebon dust aura (even if it isn't the worst):
Not permanent blind but still in nearby area.
Instant cast, no interrupt can counter like you can with blinding surge.
Removes blind even from a stack of conditions.
And you also deal more earth damage with attacks.
10 sec recharge.
:P
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by lemming
Press B and you'll see what Motoko, along with just about everyone else who GvGs, is unhappy about.
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| Warriors were regarded as the pinnacle of class design because blah blah there's significantly less skill involved. |
The Dervish was just NOW re-released as an entirely new package, and you and others expect all the kinks and idiosyncracies to be worked out the same as a class which has had nearly six years in the spotlight? Talk about unreal expectations.
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| Secondly, the fact that IAS and IMS stacked together is an extremely dangerous combination on a melee character should be immediately obvious, seeing as how Primal Rage defined GvG for a year. The interaction between Frenzy and Rush on-Primal warriors was a delicate balance - better players would be able to eke out more attacks in Frenzy without dying. Dervishes don't even need an elite slot for the same effect now - Heart of Fury with any of the flash speed buffs does not even carry the penalty of making you spike bait that at least kind of kept Primal Rage in check. |
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| tl;dr: I'm curious to hear your defense of promoting bad habits in the interest of "change." |
tl;dr: Derv was outclassed and never used, now is getting its 15 minutes of fame. When the dust clears and balance is ironed out, or players stop whining and make a counter build as has occurred since the game's inception, then all this will blow over.
You do realize the irony of the situation? EVERY time there is a change, someone always bitches and someone always defends it. But the change happens nonetheless. Better to adapt and move on than rail against the inevitable. Or go the way of the Dodo...
Motoko
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
GvG isn't the only PvP, who knew?
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
They've also had a significantly longer time to exist, which has allowed more refinement over time, and as new skills were added there have been constant nerfs and buffs over the lifetime of the game.
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
The Dervish was just NOW re-released as an entirely new package, and you and others expect all the kinks and idiosyncracies to be worked out the same as a class which has had nearly six years in the spotlight? Talk about unreal expectations.
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
You do realize the irony of the situation? EVERY time there is a change, someone always bitches and someone always defends it. But the change happens nonetheless. Better to adapt and move on than rail against the inevitable. Or go the way of the Dodo...
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I guess being the Dodo you wouldn't know that.
miriforst
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
GvG isn't the only PvP, who knew?
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AngelWJedi
some of the derv skills were okay. but then again so were some of the old skills. either way it wasnt good enough to make me wanna use my derv again.
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko
The balance of these updates I'm sure had GvG more in mind than other PvP format in this game. I could try explaining it to you, but even Lemming isn't getting through your thick skull so I can't say I care to waste my time.
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You know , people in HA complained about bbwars for months , people in RA about bsurgers , people in JQ/FA about RoJ monks , people in TA about same meta , people in HB about 123 sins , however noone cared ever. Why? Because the game isn't balanced around those formats....but however , balancing GvG should have a positive incidence on other formats , which was never ever the case...There should be a higher correlation between all PvP formats in my opinion...
What i mean is that , i don't agree with Kaleban since most of ideas are useless , but he isn't so wrong concerning PvP. It doesn't require any skill to play for months , but it's just that there is a too big "wall" between GvG and other formats....
If you don't believe me , i will remind you that Energizing Wind got nerfed 1 year after HA activity because some players ran it in GvG ( i think it was [NoGW] ) and most sin skills( aftercasts too) for the same reason...