As we've seen, the long awaited update to dervs has been revealed and applied to GW.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates
My question to you is: how this will affect the meta game of GW?
I've already heard that some guilds are now trying to use Vow of strenght instead of 100b, conviction isn't anymore useful for soosc a/d i guess, and so on...
Your toughs and what do you expect about it?
P.S: consider also changes to A-scan, BuH! and Intesity...
Dervish update effects on GW
AndrewSX
Missing HB
For PvP , i didn't see atm that many interesting builds. I tested many combinaisons ( considered aswell using D/W axe , hammer , etc..) but none seem to be a better choice than a sin as damage dealer , or even as BBWar for HA....
However , there will probably be interesting choices for GvG in the near future , but for other PvP places i don't think so
However , there will probably be interesting choices for GvG in the near future , but for other PvP places i don't think so
dasmitchies
It will still make dervs weak due to changing scythes. Nerf waaaars
RedDog91
A can see Reaper's Sweep being used in place of BB, specially since an assassin can run Reapers Sweep while they can't use BB
Lest121
Only been messing around with it for a 30mins or so but these changes suck IMO for PvE, they seem to be PvP....
mr hatt
so I have been playing a dervish since nightfall came out. it was my first melee toon, i developed a style where with proper timing and attention i could tank and cause huge amounts of damage. the update has ruined the dervish class in my opinion. why would i ever want to strip my mystic regen off? i wouldn't. not ever. IT KEEPS ME ALIVE but no now every scythe attack strips the enchantments that keep me alive.....wtf guildwars i couldn't even play last night. i keep looking at the skill bar in dismay.
i ran outside with my favorite all around build and couldn't even kill a group of bugs.
i guess the dervish is the new paragon....like a blond, only fun in parties
i ran outside with my favorite all around build and couldn't even kill a group of bugs.
i guess the dervish is the new paragon....like a blond, only fun in parties
DiogoSilva
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Originally Posted by mr hatt
why would i ever want to strip my mystic regen off? i wouldn't. not ever.
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Dzjudz
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Originally Posted by mr hatt
i ran outside with my favorite all around build and couldn't even kill a group of bugs.
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Adapt. Make new builds. New skills are fun.
Ghull Ka
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Originally Posted by Dzjudz
Sounds like that guy who tried to use his old SF builds to farm after SF was changed...
Adapt. Make new builds. New skills are fun. |
Everyone else in GW is starting from square one when it comes to dervishes, so it's OK.
chuckles79
People are complaining because they changed the role of the Dervish, rather than just make it more powerful.
The Dervish is now an offensively oriented character, who's primary function is crowd control.
Flash Enchants, maintainable Avatars, massive condition spreading and elemental PBAoE.
This update was designed for Leroys. Wade into the group and start swinging away, recasting enchants after they expire.
I did find they are weak against small group or single enemies. Running to Gunnar's from the Eye was not as easy as mob clearing in Nightfall. The ability to do damage to a single target is lacking. I assume that proper Avatar selection and skills will help that though.
The Dervish, w/ 70 AR should have never been put into a tanking role and this corrects that.
Yes, WS and some old favs are not as powerful, but that was because they were abused by other classes too much.
The problem I had while setting up my Derv as not finding skills, but choosing between them.
I also think some people should consider what shadowstepping can do with these new skills... run in, spread conditions, step out, repeat.
The Dervish is now an offensively oriented character, who's primary function is crowd control.
Flash Enchants, maintainable Avatars, massive condition spreading and elemental PBAoE.
This update was designed for Leroys. Wade into the group and start swinging away, recasting enchants after they expire.
I did find they are weak against small group or single enemies. Running to Gunnar's from the Eye was not as easy as mob clearing in Nightfall. The ability to do damage to a single target is lacking. I assume that proper Avatar selection and skills will help that though.
The Dervish, w/ 70 AR should have never been put into a tanking role and this corrects that.
Yes, WS and some old favs are not as powerful, but that was because they were abused by other classes too much.
The problem I had while setting up my Derv as not finding skills, but choosing between them.
I also think some people should consider what shadowstepping can do with these new skills... run in, spread conditions, step out, repeat.
chuckles79
The Derv update will be boring for HA, GvG, and Arenas. It could be a game changer in AB. One or two Dervs with monk support could seriously jack up mobs.
WarcryOfTruth
My thoughts:
Dervishes: Can be used in Manlyway FoWSC teams now, not too happy with this, I was hoping they would do something to stop speed clearing. Onslaught has potential for W/D A/D with their own weapons. Avatar of Dwayna, combined with many Dervish enchantments, ending with something like Release Enchantments can be very useful for large spike party healing in PvE, along with Mystic Healing of course.
Intensity and By Ural's Hammer: These two skills make DwG in DoA shine way more. The Mes can bring Serpent's Quickness or Quickening Zephyr, then all the Spikers die in the first group, and then the Mesmer pops them all up with By Ural's Hammer. The spikers then use DwG, Intensity, and Spirit Rift, then continue to spike like normal. I don't know if that was something ANet accounted for, and of course, this set up requires some forethought, but still, think about how strong this will be. If something like this gets implemented into the team build to form a new meta, then it will be ridiculous, hitting for close to 200+ damage to foes in Hard Mode just isn't right.
Asuran Scan: A necessary change, see above.
Edit: Overall however, I am content with it. I enjoy the new skill combinations that have arisen with the changes.
Dervishes: Can be used in Manlyway FoWSC teams now, not too happy with this, I was hoping they would do something to stop speed clearing. Onslaught has potential for W/D A/D with their own weapons. Avatar of Dwayna, combined with many Dervish enchantments, ending with something like Release Enchantments can be very useful for large spike party healing in PvE, along with Mystic Healing of course.
Intensity and By Ural's Hammer: These two skills make DwG in DoA shine way more. The Mes can bring Serpent's Quickness or Quickening Zephyr, then all the Spikers die in the first group, and then the Mesmer pops them all up with By Ural's Hammer. The spikers then use DwG, Intensity, and Spirit Rift, then continue to spike like normal. I don't know if that was something ANet accounted for, and of course, this set up requires some forethought, but still, think about how strong this will be. If something like this gets implemented into the team build to form a new meta, then it will be ridiculous, hitting for close to 200+ damage to foes in Hard Mode just isn't right.
Asuran Scan: A necessary change, see above.
Edit: Overall however, I am content with it. I enjoy the new skill combinations that have arisen with the changes.
AndrewSX
Ah, about me...the derv changes aren't a real problem, cause my derv is like 2 weeks old...i can forget quickly the few things learned. 
On the other hand, the pve skill rework really sucks imo. Buh was the only reliable caster damage buff(compared to phisycal conutless buffs wasn't OP) and after ages of discussions on guru, this version of Intensity seems a joke, really.
A-scan now is kinda a strange skill...i agree that was waay too much OP, but tuning down numbers was enough imo.
Apart this, i guess that we'll see: alot of new dervs(look in kama now), some necessaries tweaks to Sc's builds(SoOsc A/D, 100b war comes to mind), and a new wave of experiment in pvp i guess(i was looking to some skills today, and they were very condition spread oriented, for example).
On the other hand, the pve skill rework really sucks imo. Buh was the only reliable caster damage buff(compared to phisycal conutless buffs wasn't OP) and after ages of discussions on guru, this version of Intensity seems a joke, really.
A-scan now is kinda a strange skill...i agree that was waay too much OP, but tuning down numbers was enough imo.
Apart this, i guess that we'll see: alot of new dervs(look in kama now), some necessaries tweaks to Sc's builds(SoOsc A/D, 100b war comes to mind), and a new wave of experiment in pvp i guess(i was looking to some skills today, and they were very condition spread oriented, for example).
Painbringer
What derv sin combos are being used with the Ebon dust aura ?
Aycee
Lots of DC and lag.
DokkyDok
My ranger is saddened by the nerfing of AoHM & scythe skills.
As if rangers didn't suck enough already in PvE.
On a brighter note, I'm enjoying D/P stunning strike with Pious & Balth's Rage in RA.
As if rangers didn't suck enough already in PvE.
On a brighter note, I'm enjoying D/P stunning strike with Pious & Balth's Rage in RA.
reaper with no name
Forget the dervish parts for now.
What about Asuran Scan? All melee just took a massive nerf. This makes rangers, paragons, and all casters much more powerful by comparison. Heck, are unbuffed melee characters even worth using any more?
I don't know yet whether the new Vow of Strength ignores the scythe's ability to hit multiple foes, but if it does, then the dervish is effectively worthless for Manlyway. There's a reason dervishes never use Hundred Blades: they are inferior with it. If Vow of Strength is an inferior version of Hundred Blades, then logically there would be no reason to ever use Vow of Strength.
What about Asuran Scan? All melee just took a massive nerf. This makes rangers, paragons, and all casters much more powerful by comparison. Heck, are unbuffed melee characters even worth using any more?
I don't know yet whether the new Vow of Strength ignores the scythe's ability to hit multiple foes, but if it does, then the dervish is effectively worthless for Manlyway. There's a reason dervishes never use Hundred Blades: they are inferior with it. If Vow of Strength is an inferior version of Hundred Blades, then logically there would be no reason to ever use Vow of Strength.
jazilla
Intensity as far as it was supposed to help Ele's is a head scratcher. I tried Intensity + Phoenix and Rodgort's Invocation and they are both pretty lackluster on the 100AL target in the Battle Isles. Guess the "Nuker" is still relegated to support.
I am failing to see the point of the Intensity change now as Earth Magic doesn't support use of this skill at all. Obsidian Flame would be good but it isn't elemental damage so Intensity doesn't work with it. There aren't really any other Earth magic Spells that do enough damage that are single target spells to warrant this on an Earth Magic bar.
Air Magic sees the "best"(?) use of this but the damage isn't attractive enough to warrant a slot. Energy Blast is in the same boat as Obby Flame. Rodgort's Invocation, and Invoke Lightning seem the best application of the skill or maybe Chain Lightning, but I really disagree with the change seeing as it now limits usage to a handful of skills. The only skill that was fun to use it with really was Invoke Lightning. I really think that it should have it's old function and it's effect time lengthened, but remain a "skill". All this would do is make Ele's a viable option in PvE again. ANet wouldn't even have to mess with changing the mechanics of Energy Storage. Heck, just do it as a quick band-aid until Mr. Stumme can implement some minor Ele changes in one of the smaller patches he was talking about.
I am failing to see the point of the Intensity change now as Earth Magic doesn't support use of this skill at all. Obsidian Flame would be good but it isn't elemental damage so Intensity doesn't work with it. There aren't really any other Earth magic Spells that do enough damage that are single target spells to warrant this on an Earth Magic bar.
Air Magic sees the "best"(?) use of this but the damage isn't attractive enough to warrant a slot. Energy Blast is in the same boat as Obby Flame. Rodgort's Invocation, and Invoke Lightning seem the best application of the skill or maybe Chain Lightning, but I really disagree with the change seeing as it now limits usage to a handful of skills. The only skill that was fun to use it with really was Invoke Lightning. I really think that it should have it's old function and it's effect time lengthened, but remain a "skill". All this would do is make Ele's a viable option in PvE again. ANet wouldn't even have to mess with changing the mechanics of Energy Storage. Heck, just do it as a quick band-aid until Mr. Stumme can implement some minor Ele changes in one of the smaller patches he was talking about.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
What about Asuran Scan? All melee just took a massive nerf. This makes rangers, paragons, and all casters much more powerful by comparison. Heck, are unbuffed melee characters even worth using any more?
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Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
I don't know yet whether the new Vow of Strength ignores the scythe's ability to hit multiple foes
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As a matter of fact, VoS shines on secondaries with better options for IAS.
Oh well...
Miteshu
There really needs to be a Ranger Update.
Pet Scythe was the only reason why I didn't suck, but now with the update...
Agh...
Pet Scythe was the only reason why I didn't suck, but now with the update...
Agh...
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
It doesn't.
As a matter of fact, VoS shines on secondaries with better options for IAS. Oh well... |
reaper with no name
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Lol? Shirley you must be joking...
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Hard to imagine a better IAS than HoF, a 4 adrenaline 25% IAS with no downsides... at all. And in the primary attribute line. Which reduces VoS cost, and grants extra armor.
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It used to be a 2/3 maintainable 33% IAS (which is slightly better than permanent 25%).
Now it's a permanent 25% which requires adrenaline. That's a slight nerf.
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
It doesn't.
As a matter of fact, VoS shines on secondaries with better options for IAS. Oh well... |
In other words, it's exactly what I feared it would be. Well, at least they moved Mystic Sweep to mysticism. The leaked version was basically Whirlwind Attack, only energy-based. o_o
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
It's an exaggeration.
Heart of Fury is actually worse than it used to be, believe it or not. It used to be a 2/3 maintainable 33% IAS (which is slightly better than permanent 25%). Now it's a permanent 25% which requires adrenaline. That's a slight nerf. |
Owik Gall
Having a 3 derv hero team is an almost cluster-mess-you-up kinda team. Even the most stubborn of healers in the Thunderhead Keep mission (HM) got owned. Badly.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Owik Gall
Having a 3 derv hero team is an almost cluster-mess-you-up kinda team. Even the most stubborn of healers in the Thunderhead Keep mission (HM) got owned. Badly.
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Are you having better success with new builds?
Zodiac Meteor
The krewe team must not know much about Guild Wars.
The dervish has taken on a different role, which is fine and dandy, except 2 things rule Guild Wars, high DPS and insane protection.
Having frontline support is utterly pointless, the only profession you want in the frontline is the one with the most DPS, which is the Assassin.
It was a good idea, a crowd control frontliner, almost like the Guardian, but in a game where full DPS is better than crowd control and all you need is a monk to keep you alive. It's not going to work.
Intensity is lol stupid. Elementalists need higher damage not more AoE. If I hit 10 foes with 30 damage, it still won't compare to the killing prowess of Rits, Necros and any other profession with high DPS.
Asuran Scan is a lolwut factor as well. It was a good skill, but other skills come to mind that needs nerfing hmm?
"By Urals Hammer!" an AoE Vengeance, players might like it if it affects all allies *hint, hint ArenaNet!!*
The dervish has taken on a different role, which is fine and dandy, except 2 things rule Guild Wars, high DPS and insane protection.
Having frontline support is utterly pointless, the only profession you want in the frontline is the one with the most DPS, which is the Assassin.
It was a good idea, a crowd control frontliner, almost like the Guardian, but in a game where full DPS is better than crowd control and all you need is a monk to keep you alive. It's not going to work.
Intensity is lol stupid. Elementalists need higher damage not more AoE. If I hit 10 foes with 30 damage, it still won't compare to the killing prowess of Rits, Necros and any other profession with high DPS.
Asuran Scan is a lolwut factor as well. It was a good skill, but other skills come to mind that needs nerfing hmm?
"By Urals Hammer!" an AoE Vengeance, players might like it if it affects all allies *hint, hint ArenaNet!!*
makosi
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Lol? Shirley you must be joking...
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And I agree that this was a painful hit for rangers in HM; Asuran Scan made damage builds possible for the ranger.
It's more of an inconvenience to the other martial professions.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by makosi
Who is Shirley?
And I agree that this was a painful hit for rangers in HM; Asuran Scan made damage builds possible for the ranger. It's more of an inconvenience to the other martial professions. |
I rarely ran AScan, but a thought occurs to me. If you cannot miss target foe due to any in-game mechanic, such as blindness, blocking stances/chants, etc. does that mean one could AScan Abaddon and continue to hit him even when he's technically not vulnerable? Would be amusing...
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Hard to imagine a better IAS than HoF, a 4 adrenaline 25% IAS with no downsides... at all. And in the primary attribute line. Which reduces VoS cost, and grants extra armor.
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That doesn't sound like much, but that 8% more is quite significant.
EDIT -
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
So, it's up to 3 times better than Hundred Blades, except that it can be stripped and is better utilized by dervish secondaries?
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Primary Dervishes can run MoP in their bars, while secondaries can't, even tough I've observed similar results when playing W/D with just Flail+Whirlwind.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
Flail has a negligible downside (easily negated with a cancel stance), +33% IAS.
That doesn't sound like much, but that 7% more is quite significant. |
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
So is having to carry a cancel stance.
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FGJ + Enraged + Flail. Sure, that's three skills, but the outcome is well worth it.
lemming
When the cancel stance is on a 20 second cycle and not canceling means that you're inflicting 0 damage for the remainder of the stance, it's kind of a big deal.
Besides, Heart of Fury benefits greatly from the fact that Mysticism is also making IMS flash enchantments cheaper, and you don't have to cancel out of your IAS to have a speed buff.
And no, the 8% difference in IAS is hardly noticable.
Besides, Heart of Fury benefits greatly from the fact that Mysticism is also making IMS flash enchantments cheaper, and you don't have to cancel out of your IAS to have a speed buff.
And no, the 8% difference in IAS is hardly noticable.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
Not really, when the cancel stance can provide advantages by itself, like an improved adrenaline flow when compared to the Primary Dervish.
FGJ + Enraged + Flail. Sure, that's three skills, but the outcome is well worth it. |
You're arguing that the marginal utility of 8% extra IAS is worth a second skill, or even third skill in your example, given the other benefits of said skills.
But you're ignoring that the Dervish, with HoF who does NOT have to carry a cancel stance has a higher marginal utility for the simple fact that the second and third skill you mention can be chosen without regard to the IAS skill, and ALSO carry benefits, just like your warrior's supporting skills.
Try not to muddy the issue by tacking on unecessary irrelevancies. The simple fact of the matter is that HoF is maintainable 25% IAS with no drawbacks. Other IAS (such as Flail) come with disadvantages that require other skills to compensate for.
In my opinion, this tradeoff works very much in the Dervish's favor, especially considering that the 8% IAS difference has less effect on a faster weapon, which the Scythe now is.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
You're arguing that the marginal utility of 8% extra IAS is worth a second skill, or even third skill in your example, given the other benefits of said skills.
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Originally Posted by lemming
And no, the 8% difference in IAS is hardly noticable.
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Whatever, VoS looks too easily usable by secondaries to me, with little to nothing to loose in the process.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
Yup, I am, since a popular matching with VoS is Whirlwind Attack. A boost in adrenaline and a faster IAS (ready on hit, which is not the case with HoF) are all useful in this case.
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| Debatable. It's as hardly noticeable as its downside is significant. |
Lets not forget that Flail is in Strength, and doing a VoS build on a Warrior means your e-management will be pretty terrible, not to mention that Strength's AP doesn't apply to VoS's bonus damage. Or that one of those tertiary skills a Dervish could take is Extend Enchantments, making VoS maintainable.
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| Whatever, VoS looks too easily usable by secondaries to me, with little to nothing to loose in the process. |
LifeInfusion
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
I've been reading that Derv heroes don't utilize flash chants very well and that their AI seems to still work off old build styles.
Are you having better success with new builds? |
They tend to try to maintain things and recast when they go down.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
To make it useful you have to spec into Earth Prayers, which for a warrior begins to spread points pretty thin between Strength, EP and Scythe.
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Three attributes are sustainable, and playing VoS like a longer lasting, scythe-requiring 100b works perfectly fine. If anything, it works better than 100b itself thanks to the inherent ability of the Scythe to hit multiple targets at once, and its near-mantainability with just an enchantment mod.
I never, ever said secondaries are better at VoS, like you seem to imply. I just observed that VoS is so powerful that it works wonderfully even on secondaries. Even when it comes to the Warrior, it's easily better than 100b, which is paradoxical.
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
With the Derv's Mysticism line, rather than having to spec heavily into Scythe Mastery, one can instead take PBAoE skills to complement VoS due to superior energy management now.
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Avatar Exico
Dervish seems to be more viabile than a Warrior now in all forms from damage aspect to tanking. Dervish has now became Guild Wars Paladin class.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
So will a Dervish, who will have to spread points between Earth Prayers, Scythe Mastery and Mysticism.
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| Three attributes are sustainable, and playing VoS like a longer lasting, scythe-requiring 100b works perfectly fine. If anything, it works better than 100b itself thanks to the inherent ability of the Scythe to hit multiple targets at once, and its near-mantainability with just an enchantment mod. |
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| I never, ever said secondaries are better at VoS, like you seem to imply. I just observed that VoS is so powerful that it works wonderfully even on secondaries. Even when it comes to the Warrior, it's easily better than 100b, which is paradoxical. |
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| I don't see how PBAoE skills complement VoS that well. |