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go cubs

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2007

Chicago

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04 Mar 2011 at 20:08 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

Seems to me I can replicate it - I party up with my friend who is also an elementalist, and we each drag along our three elementalist heroes. Now we've got a party of 8 elementalists, and I didn't have to pay a dime.

So if the argument is that the end effect cannot be duplicated without spending money... then the argument is a fail.

It takes additional effort to cap a skill or unlock it via faction from that which is required to obtain it via a skill pack - but the skill is obtainable either way. It takes additional effort to form an 8-custom profession party by partying up with an additional player(s) - but it is still obtainable either way.

This, it is not an advantage. This thread no longer has a valid argument.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

04 Mar 2011 at 20:13 - 82

That requires... another person.

Lasai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2009

R/

04 Mar 2011 at 20:13 - 83

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

Seems to me I can replicate it - I party up with my friend who is also an elementalist, and we each drag along our three elementalist heroes. Now we've got a party of 8 elementalists, and I didn't have to pay a dime.

So if the argument is that the end effect cannot be duplicated without spending money... then the argument is a fail.

It takes additional effort to cap a skill or unlock it via faction from that which is required to obtain it via a skill pack - but the skill is obtainable either way. It takes additional effort to form an 8-custom profession party by partying up with an additional player(s) - but it is still obtainable either way.

This is the part I don't get.. the ability to compose these so called advantaged groups has been in the game since NF.. and none seem to exist in PvE. Perhaps now that heros can be prettier they will assume godlike powers that were unsuspected up to now.

Seems an incredible reach to find fault where there is none.

TheGizzy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2010

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04 Mar 2011 at 20:17 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

That requires... another person.

And the lack of skill packs requires an exceptional amount of effort, skill and luck getting far enough along in the campaigns to be able to cap the skills to begin with... or an exceptional amount of patience and/or skill to be able to earn enough faction to unlock them that way.

So it isn't really that the end effect of a fully customized party is unobtainable, it's that the methods of obtaining that customized party are not to your liking.

And that's perfectly ok... but it still doesn't demonstrate a concrete or tangible reward available to those who buy the merc pack which is unobtainable by those who don't.

Lasai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2009

R/

04 Mar 2011 at 20:18 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

That requires... another person.

But you are talking theory, and in theory a supergroup of the composition you are all ranting over could have, and would have been done long ago and the supposed OP of that makeup ranted about long ago. "OMG nerf full necro groups because I am an [insert prof] and can't get a group"

Still not seeing a legitimate issue. Care should be taken not to make it an issue, since the mechanic to create the groups you label as advantaged are ingame now. How many want a popup saying "You cannot invite X because you have max number of X prof in your party"? That would be the fix, they are not going to undo the already purchased Merc slots.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

04 Mar 2011 at 20:24 - 86

Not this again, the OP couldnt be any more wrong.

I have said this a few times already, with using extra mercenary slots, there is absolutely NO SINGLE BUILD that you can make that is anymore powerful than taking Olias, Livia, MoW, Norgu, Gwen, Xandra, and Razah.

3x Discord, 1x Panic, 1x Ineptitude, 1x SoS, 1x Soul Twisting or Signet of Ghostly Might.

If you think that adding more of the same profession such as 4+ necros is going to make the game any easier than the above setup, you have absolutely no clue how to play GW.

With 7 heroes for free, and all the ones you already have, the game is now so easy that it feels moronic playing it with such a powerful hero setup. Adding your alts as heroes DOESNT DO ANYTHING to give you any ingame advantage, you already have so much unbelievable advantage as it is.

If you feel disadvantaged in anyway without paying for mercenary slots, seriously learn how to play the game instead of whining.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

04 Mar 2011 at 20:36 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

1. And an SC team can do it faster/easier than I can. Better nerf those, then, since it's unfair that those players are getting more ectos than I am... that means they can buy a polar bear and I can't! Ohnoes!! Because it certainly isn't allowing them to buy better weapons than me...

Not a good comparison. You can join an SC team, while I cannot make the same hero parties as someone with mercs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I have said this a few times already, with using extra mercenary slots, there is absolutely NO SINGLE BUILD that you can make that is anymore powerful than taking Olias, Livia, MoW, Norgu, Gwen, Xandra, and Razah.

3x Discord, 1x Panic, 1x Ineptitude, 1x SoS, 1x Soul Twisting or Signet of Ghostly Might.

I don't need mercs to make a better team than that, but there might be even better teams with mercs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

If you feel disadvantaged in anyway without paying for mercenary slots, seriously learn how to play the game instead of whining.

Not the point. The fact remains that they can make teams that I cannot without paying.

TheGizzy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2010

A giant mitten

TeAe

E/R

04 Mar 2011 at 20:43 - 88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Not a good comparison. You can join an SC team, while I cannot make the same hero parties as someone with mercs.

As demonstrated already, yes you can. What you are objecting to isn't that you can't have a fully customizable team, it is that the methods available to you for that customization are not to your liking. A fully custom party IS available to you, you just aren't happy with the method. But you are no less able to put together a team of 8 "whatevers" than anyone else.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

04 Mar 2011 at 20:47 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

And the lack of skill packs requires an exceptional amount of effort, skill and luck getting far enough along in the campaigns to be able to cap the skills to begin with... or an exceptional amount of patience and/or skill to be able to earn enough faction to unlock them that way.

I think involving a second person is something fundamentally different from playing by yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I have said this a few times already, with using extra mercenary slots, there is absolutely NO SINGLE BUILD that you can make that is anymore powerful than taking Olias, Livia, MoW, Norgu, Gwen, Xandra, and Razah.

3x Discord, 1x Panic, 1x Ineptitude, 1x SoS, 1x Soul Twisting or Signet of Ghostly Might.

If you think that adding more of the same profession such as 4+ necros is going to make the game any easier than the above setup, you have absolutely no clue how to play GW.

Why are you so convinced that this build is the end-all of hero builds? I'm reasonably confident in assuming that not a lot of people have been testing 7 hero builds using a second person as a guinea pig.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

04 Mar 2011 at 20:50 - 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

I don't need mercs to make a better team than that, but there might be even better teams with mercs.

Not the point. The fact remains that they can make teams that I cannot without paying.

1) Trust me there arent any better than that. Instead of assuming, how about you actually think of what could be better? Nothing is, I've already tried 6 discord heroes with 2 people well before this update, and its actually a lot worse than running with H/H was. Filling a team up with discord heroes is crap, you need dome AoE, pressure, and even sprits too.

2) So what? You can already make plenty enough teams with the heroes you already have. If its that big a problem to you, stop being a cheapskate and buy the mercenary pack. I've already done it, and its hardly as good or as powerful as people who havnt bought it are whining about. Its simply a fun and visual thing only to be able to use your alts as heroes, and a minor convenience such as sdding more hero builds so you dont need to keep on re runing (I have my 3 ingame necros set up as Discord way, and have added another 2 nero mercenaries for Sabway so I dont need to keep on changing runes and builds when I want to swap between discordway and SS / SV).

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

04 Mar 2011 at 20:50 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

As demonstrated already, yes you can. What you are objecting to isn't that you can't have a fully customizable team, it is that the methods available to you for that customization are not to your liking. A fully custom party IS available to you, you just aren't happy with the method. But you are no less able to put together a team of 8 "whatevers" than anyone else.

Tell me, how can I get 7 customisable heroes of any profession without buying merc slots?

2 accounts: you get 6 heroes, not 7, and you lose them when you zone.

2 people: you get 6 heroes and another person. This is a pug.

Even with 2 accounts/people I wouldn't be able to make a 7 rit team if I wanted to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

1) Trust me there arent any better than that. Instead of assuming, how about you actually think of what could be better? Nothing is, I've already tried 6 discord heroes with 2 people well before this update, and its actually a lot worse than running with H/H was. Filling a team up with discord heroes is crap, you need dome AoE, pressure, and even sprits too.

I wasn't thinking more discord, I was thinking less...

And yes, I have 2 accounts so I have already played pretty much any available build combo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

stop being a cheapskate and buy the mercenary pack

Exactly the point of the thread: pay to get an advantage.

And I won't buy it at this price.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

04 Mar 2011 at 20:52 - 92

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Tell me, how can I get 7 customisable heroes of any profession without buying merc slots?

Tell me, why do you want everything for free in an MMO? If you want mercs that badly, then buy some slots and contribute towards keeping this game alive like some of the rest of us are doing, rather than whining about being able to play for free of other peoples purchases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

And yes, I have 2 accounts so I have already played pretty much any available build combo.

So you paid for two accounts to use 6 heroes, and you now have 7 heroes entirely for free but complain about having the option to pay for your own custom heroes?

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

04 Mar 2011 at 20:53 - 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Tell me, why do you want everything for free in an MMO? If you want mercs that badly, then buy some slots and contribute towards keeping this game alive like some of the rest of us are doing, rather than whining about being able to play for free of other peoples purchases.

One of the biggest mantras of GW was that everyone has the same benefits without paying. That is exactly what was ruined with this update and what the thread is about.

I'm not whining about paying. I have all costumes. I would welcome mercs as replacements for heroes with our own chars.

What I am against is the advantage of mercs over non-mercs...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

So you paid for two accounts to use 6 heroes, and you now have 7 heroes entirely for free but complain about having the option to pay for your own custom heroes?

See above.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

04 Mar 2011 at 20:54 - 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

One of the biggest mantras of GW was that everyone has the same benefits without paying. That is exactly what was ruined with this update and what the thread is about.

Everyone does still have the same benefits, mercenaries dont give anyone an unfair advantage over what you can already do with the ingame heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

What I am against is the advantage of mercs over non-mercs...
See above.

There is absolutely not a single advantage to mercs over normal heroes. You should know that if you know how powerful your heroes can already get. Theres nothing more better that a team full of necro heroes can do over the free heroes.

TheGizzy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2010

A giant mitten

TeAe

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04 Mar 2011 at 20:55 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I think involving a second person is something fundamentally different from playing by yourself.

I actually agree with you, especially since I prefer solo'ing, which is why other than for work, I generally avoid MMOs.

But that comes down to exercising a personal choice... and whether or not the game is required to accommodate every choice you would LIKE to make.

It is not necessary to gameplay to have a party include mercs. It is not necessary to the successful completion of any part of the game. It is not necessary to obtain any rewards.

It's a choice based on convenience - being able to have the custom party without partying up with someone else. That's convenience, not advantage. It is a convenience you can choose to obtain by paying for it, or one you can decide is not worth the money. It will not stop you from playing the game content 100%.

You can pay for the convenience or not. Some people will, most probably won't. It's not a convenience to me or how I like to play, so I won't be paying for it.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

04 Mar 2011 at 20:55 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Everyone does still have the same benefits, mercenaries dont give anyone an unfair advantage over what you can already do with the ingame heroes.

For the last time, you cannot make the same teams as someone with mercs if you don't have them.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

04 Mar 2011 at 20:57 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

For the last time, you cannot make the same teams as someone with mercs if you don't have them.

And for the last time, thats not a disadvantage.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

04 Mar 2011 at 20:59 - 98

Not if you think that the build you posted above is the supreme end-all hero team build of GW.

But it isn't.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

04 Mar 2011 at 21:03 - 99

Next up, Anet adds a duplicate version of mending to the guild wars store. 15 page thread full of rage because a 2nd mending is totally unbalanced in some obscenely obscure build that only a moron would be using.

Lasai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2009

R/

04 Mar 2011 at 21:06 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

One of the biggest mantras of GW was that everyone has the same benefits without paying. That is exactly what was ruined with this update and what the thread is about.

I'm not whining about paying. I have all costumes. I would welcome mercs as replacements for heroes with our own chars.

What I am against is the advantage of mercs over non-mercs...
See above.

No, you are ranting against the so called advantage people would have using Mercs to create some so far.. unknown.. supergroup. If you all somehow manage to prove this point, what do you think is going to happen? Everyone is going to get free mercs? Or.. group makeup caps per prof.

Honestly, if you somehow prove that more than x prof per group is seriously unbalancing to the point you claim that IS what will be nerfed regardless of Heros or Player composition.

You people seriously need to be careful what you wish for.

TheGizzy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2010

A giant mitten

TeAe

E/R

04 Mar 2011 at 21:07 - 101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

For the last time, you cannot make the same teams as someone with mercs if you don't have them.

You're right - you'd have another human in place of one of the mercs. Which means more loot between the two of you, rather than by disappearing into the ether as it does with H/M/H. It means more adaptability... more options for flagging (positioning all 8 party members separately instead of 1, 1, 1, 1, & 4), less micro-managing.

Seems those two humans and their heroes are the ones with the advantages, actually.

Again - this boils down to the mercs providing no tangible benefits and being nothing more than, at best, a convenience. One some are willing to pay for and some are not.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

04 Mar 2011 at 21:10 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Not if you think that the build you posted above is the supreme end-all hero team build of GW.

But it isn't.

Unfortunately it is. You havnt yet explained or told us how 7 mercenaries can be any better. Really, it cant, I have them, and theres no better build I can think of.

Necros, Mesmers and Rits are the most powerful classes atm, Discord, Panic, Ineptitude, and Spiritway with an SoS + Communing rit are the current metas and most powerful builds.

If you really want to be taken seriously, then how about you actually come up with a new meta that is anymore powerful than what we already know to be the current most powerful classes and builds?

You can practically clear almost everything in the game with discordway + mesmers + spiritway. If you think mercenaries can do anything better, then go ahead and demonstrate how by coming up with a new meta than what everyone is already running in the 7 hero builds threads.

Triple discord + panic + spiritway, plus ineptitude and an ER elly based on what role your character can fit in IS the new meta. Come up with a new meta using mercenaries that you cant do with heroes, and then people will take what you say a lot more seriously.

Chasing Squirrels

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

04 Mar 2011 at 21:13 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinta_himura

So it's finally happened. It was only a matter of time, right?

Purchasing a mercenary hero now gives players a gameplay advantage over other players who did not purchase it. You may have an additional hero of the same profession, or in fact, you can fill your entire team with the same profession (3 heroes, four characters of the same profession).

If you don't make this purchase, your gameplay is now limited until you do.

Soon they will be selling weapons and armor that have extra bonuses:S

Lasai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2009

R/

04 Mar 2011 at 21:14 - 104

Perhaps the synergy wave of 7 Olias clones casting Death Nova on each other will disrupt the fiber of the universe, creating a vortex that rains Ectos.

Srs Bisns

Lasai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2009

R/

04 Mar 2011 at 21:15 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasing Squirrels

Soon they will be selling weapons and armor that have extra bonuses:S

go go slippery slope. Knew that was coming.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

04 Mar 2011 at 21:16 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

No, you are ranting against the so called advantage people would have using Mercs to create some so far.. unknown.. supergroup. If you all somehow manage to prove this point, what do you think is going to happen? Everyone is going to get free mercs? Or.. group makeup caps per prof.

No, what I'd be happy with is some sort of generic hero, for example a Zaishen Hero, that you can add to the party to make any combination of heroes.

Leave the Merc slots for hero makeovers, I'm perfectly willing to pay for such a thing, as I was with costumes.

This way, everyone can make any party they want and payers don't get benefits over non-payers, stuff you pay for should be cosmetic only.

How is this unreasonable?

Again, I'm not against microtransactions, I'm against advantages you need to pay for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Unfortunately it is. You havnt yet explained or told us how 7 mercenaries can be any better. Really, it cant, I have them, and theres no better build I can think of.

A third mesmer might be great. Maybe 1 panic, 1 ineptitude and 1 Esurge or something. I don't have 3 mesmers to test though

.

I'm not saying I know the best possible merc build. I'm just saying that your build is not the best build even without mercs.

P.S. drop your discords and you will already improve your team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

You're right - you'd have another human in place of one of the mercs. Which means more loot between the two of you, rather than by disappearing into the ether as it does with H/M/H. It means more adaptability... more options for flagging (positioning all 8 party members separately instead of 1, 1, 1, 1, & 4), less micro-managing.

What it means is: the need for another player, exactly the opposite of what 7 heroes is supposed to mean...

BrettM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

04 Mar 2011 at 21:16 - 107

There are more than 3 billion ways to combine 26 heroes to form a party of 7 of them. I find it hard to believe that not one of those 3 billion ways is the equal of any party you can form by throwing merc heroes into the mix.

Ghull Ka

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Seattle, WA

Grenths Helpdesk

N/

04 Mar 2011 at 21:21 - 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Not if you think that the build you posted above is the supreme end-all hero team build of GW.

But it isn't.

So where's the build that's the supreme end-all hero team build that requires mercs?

And what can it do that a non-merc team can't do?

I dig the theory, but would like to see some examples. If there's muder afoot, surely there's a body, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Perhaps the synergy wave of 7 Olias clones casting Death Nova on each other will disrupt the fiber of the universe, creating a vortex that rains Ectos.

Srs Bisns

Where's the typical "Like" thumbs-up button where you need it?

Lasai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2009

R/

04 Mar 2011 at 21:22 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Again, I'm not against microtransactions, I'm against advantages you need to pay for.
.

simple. prove the advantage. So far, no one is presenting a shred of evidence beyond supposition.

Faer

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

Join Date: Feb 2006

04 Mar 2011 at 21:23 - 110

Using your characters as Heroes has been a topic of discussion since Nightfall was released, albeit less of one in the years since. Now that it has finally happened, everybody has their opinions on how good of a choice selling the feature is, and you're all more than welcome to express them on Guru in a while, after everyone has settled down and taken time to formulate constructive posts about their thoughts so that threads about the subject don't devolved so quickly into arguments about who has the best build or how horrible the next update will be.

We understand that some of you are upset, but we really do not need... this... on Guru. Collect your thoughts and let's have a discussion when we're all willing to put a little more effort and civility into it.