Assassin PvE skill rework

First of I know that Assassins don't have the highest priority for a skill rework. But still I thought to give it a shot.

Second please give supportive criticism, not flame. Some skills might be to powerful in certain combinations. And if you think they are just say so and suggest changes.

Also these changes are for PvE only, because in PvP this would be to powerful.



The Assassin in general
The Assassin was supposed to be a hard striking, hit and run kind of profession. They came, they quickly killed and after that they had to run for their lives or be killed.

One of the first problems Assassins have is that currently most dagger skills have a too long recharge time (for fast chains I think recharges higher than 6 seconds is to much). That’s why most Assassin dagger builds use Jagged Strike (1 sec recharge) -> Fox Fangs (3 sec recharge) -> Death Blossom (2 sec recharge).

An other problem Assassins have is that they die too easy. Mostly because players (including me) hate it to attack, kill and then run. But also because there are very view skills that allow hit and run tactics.

And last but especially not least Assassins are quite powerful in PvP when played properly. Their attack skills have high damage and powerful side effects that allow to kill an opponent in seconds when the right chain is used. This is one of the reasons many skills took a hit from the nerfbat. And became pretty much useless in PvE, where killing things fast is much more important than battle field control.

So I’ve spent some time to look at the Assassins skills and tried to find ways to improve them. Because the most played Assassin skills right now are Shadow Form *sight* and Assassin's Promise.



Dagger attacks
As I mentioned before a lot of dagger attacks have a too long recharge to be really useful in PvE and that’s why only a few are played. That has to be changed.

Assault Enchantments [E]
5e - 3r
Elite Lead Attack. If this attack hits strike for +10…20 damage. If target foe is enchanted strike for an additional +15…30 damage.
(in PvE mass enchantment removal isn't really that useful. Additional damage is.)

Black Lotus Strike
5e - 4r
Lead Attack. If it hits, Black Lotus Strike strikes for +10...20 damage. If target foe is suffering from a hex, you gain 5…8 Energy.

Critical Strike
5e - 4r
Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10…20 damage, If you land a critical hit, inflict Deep Wound for 5…10 seconds.

Malicious Strike
5e - 4r
Off-hand Attack. Must follow a Lead Attack. If this attack hits a foe suffering from a condition, you steal 15…30 Health and this attack results in a critical hit.

Shattering Assault [E]
10e - 4r
Elite Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, you deal +5...40 damage and target foe loses one enchantment any stance being used by your target ends. This attack cannot be blocked.

Twisting Fangs10e - 4r
Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, Twisting Fangs strikes for +5...15 damage and struck foe suffers from Bleeding and Deep Wound for 5…15 seconds.

Black Spider Strike
5e - 4r
Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If this attack hits strike for +5…15 damage. If this attack hits a hexed foe, target foe is Poisoned for 5…20 seconds.
(As a fast usable off-hand attack this skill was pretty good. But it think this way the skill will see more play. With a shorter recharge and without a hit condition.)

Blades of Steel
5e - 5r
Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5…20 damage (maximum bonus 50) for each recharging dagger attack.
(This skill was able to do a lot of damage. To bad most Assassin builds don't use more than 3 dagger attacks. So increased damage per recharging skill, reduced recharge and lowered maximum hit bonus to compensate.)

Disrupting Stab
10e - 1/2sec - 5r
Melee Attack. If this attack hits, it interrupts target foe's action. If that action was a spell, it is disabled for 3...9 seconds.
(Made this skill more in line with salvage shot so it is easier to use. Also made it a Melee skill so that it won't effect your dagger chain.)

Exhausting Assault
10e - 6r
Dual Attack. Must follow a off-hand attack. If this attack hits target foe loses 2…6 energy and your strike for +3…8 damage for each point of energy lost.

Falling Lotus Strike
5e - 8r
Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +15...30 damage. If this attack hits a knocked down foe you gain 5...15 Energy.
(Made damage unconditional and lowered recharge)

Falling Spider
5e - 3r
Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +15...30 damage. If this attack hits a knocked down foe that foe is Poisoned for 5…20 seconds.

Golden Lotus Strike
5e - 5r
Off-hand Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5…25 damage. If you are under the effects of an enchantment, you gain 5...7 Energy.

Golden Phoenix Strike
5e - 3r
Off-Hand Attack. If you are not under the effects of an enchantment, this skill misses. If it hits, target foe and all adjacent foes take 10…25 damage.
(Lowered damage and recharge.)

Golden Skull Strike [E]
10e - 5r
Elite Lead Attack. If this attack hits you strike for +5…15 damage. If you are under the effect of an enchantment target foe is knocked down

Horns of the Ox
10e - 10r
Melee attack. Must follow a dual attack. If it hits, Horns of the Ox strikes for +10…20 damage. If target foe has less than 50…75% health, that foe is knocked down.
(Made it a melee attack and lowered recharge a little bit.)

Jungle Strike
5e - 4r
Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...22 damage. If it hits a foe that was suffering from a condition, that foe and all adjacent foes take 1...25 damage.

Lotus Strike
5e - 6r
Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10…20 damage and you gain 5...10 Energy.

Nine Tail Strike
5e - 2r
Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. Nine Tail Strike cannot be blocked and strikes for +15...35 damage if it hits.
(Unblock able attack that can compete with Death Blossom.)

Repeating Strike
5e - 2r
Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...25 damage and all your non-elite lead attacks are recharged.

Temple Strike [E]
10e - 10r
Elite Skill. Must follow a dual attack. Target touched foe takes 20…80 damage and is knocked down for 2…4 seconds.

Trampling Ox
10e - 8r
Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, you deal +5...10 damage. If you hit a foe suffering from a condition, that foe is knocked down.


Mobility
The Assassin was designed to be a very mobile profession mainly because of Shadow Steps. To bad Shadow Steps proofed to powerful in PvP so Anet added a aftercast. Great for PvP not so great for PvE. Now I'm not saying to remove the aftercast in PvE but having shorter recharges on the Shadow Steps and the ability to retreat quickly would be nice. So I reworked some skills to do just that.

Black Mantis Thrust
5e - 10r
Lead Attack. Shadow Step to target foe. If this attack hits a hexed foe, you strike for +10…20 damage.

Desperate Strike
10e - 6r
Melee Attack. If you have less than 75% Health, you strike for +15…50 damage and Shadow Step to a nearby location directly away from your target.
(If your losing health quickly you need to get out of battle. So here you have a powerful hit with a quick way out. Also it is a Melee Attack so you can use it any time you find necessary.)

Leaping Mantis Sting
10e - 8r
Lead Attack. Shadow Step to target foe. If this attack hits a moving foe, you strike for +10…20 damage and that foe is knocked down

Deadly Arts are almost never used (except for Assassin's Promise and Deadly Paradox) so I think most skills could use some work.

Augury of Death
5e - 1/2sec - 8r
Hex Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. For 5…30 seconds, whenever damage would drop target foe's Health below 50%, you inflict a Deep Wound for 0…8 seconds. When this hex ends you return to your original location.
(This now is a true hit and run spell. Cast this spell to get to your target quickly and even infliced Deep Wound whenever target foe gets bellow 50% health. But the best thing is if the target dies the hex ends. And your able to retreat.)

Crippling Dagger
5e - 3/4sec - 5r
Spell. Send out a Crippling Dagger at target foe that strikes 15…40 damage and Cripples for 5…10 seconds if it hits, If Crippling Dagger hits Shadow Step to target foe. This skill counts as a lead attack.

Dancing Daggers
5e - 3/4sec - 10r
Spell. Send out a Dancing Dagger at target foe that strikes 15…40 damage if it hits. If Dancing Dagger hits Shadow Step to target foe. Your next 0…4 attacks deal 10…25 damage to up to 3 nearby foes. This skill counts as a lead attack.

Dark Prison
5e - 1/2sec - 3r
Hex Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. For 1…10 seconds, that foe moves 50% slower. When this hex ends you return to your original location.

Mantis Touch
5e - 1/2sec - 5r
Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. Target foe takes 10…40 damage and becomes Crippled for 5…15 seconds. This skill counts as an lead attack.

Mark of Death
5e - 3/4sec - 8r
Hex Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. For 30 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 30...120 health. When this hex ends you return to your original location.

Scorpion Wire
5e - 1sec- 15r
Hex Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. For 5…15 seconds the next time target foe moves that foe is knocked down.

Shadow Fang
5e - 1/2sec - 8r
Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. The next time you hit with an attack target foe suffers from Deep Wound for 5…15 seconds.

Shadow Prison [E]
10e - 1/2sec - 5r
Elite Hex Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. For 5…15 seconds your dagger attacks strike for 5…15 more damage if foe is not moving. When this hex ends you return to your original location

Beguiling Haze [E]
5e - 1/2sec - 5r
Elite Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. That foe becomes Dazed for 2…10 seconds.

Dark Escape
5e - 20r
Stance. Shadow Step to a nearby location directly away from your target. For 5...15 seconds, you move 25% faster and take half damage. Dark Escape ends if you successfully hit with an attack.

Death's Charge
10e - 3/4sec - 8r
Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. If that foe has more Health than you, you are healed for 70…150.
(reduced recharge, but increased energy cost.)

Death's Retreat
10e - 3/4sec - 8r
Spell. Shadow Step to a nearby location directly away from your target. All your skills are disabled for 10…2 seconds and you gain 70…180 health.

Heart of Shadow
10e - 3/4sec - 15r
Enchantment Spell. Shadow Step to a nearby location directly away from your target. You are healed for 30…80 and have +4…8 Health regeneration for 10 seconds.
(Skill is mostly used in farming and that’s a shame.)

Return
5e - 1/2sec - 8r
Spell. Shadow Step to target other ally's location. You are both healed for 70…140 health.

Recall
5e - 1sec - 10r - maintained
Enchantment Spell. While you maintain Recall, nothing happens. When Recall ends, you Shadow Step to the ally you targeted when you activated this skill, and both of you are healed for 70 health.

Shadow Walk
5e - 1r
Stance. Shadow Step to target foe. Shadow Walk ends when you use an attack skill. When this stance ends, you return to your original location.
(Just annoy your opponents.)

Swap
10e - 1sec - 15r
Spell. You and target foe Shadow Step to each other's location.
(Could be used in some tactical ways.)

Wastrel's Collapse [E]
10e - 1/2sec - 8r
Elite Skill. Shadow Step to target foe. If that foe is not using a skill, that foe is knocked down for 3 seconds. (50% fail chance with Critical Strikes 7 or less.)

Blinding Powder
10e - 1/2sec - 10r
Spell. All nearby foes are blinded for 4…9 seconds. Shadow Step to a nearby location directly away from your target.




Deadly Love
As most of you will properly know most Deadly Art skills remain unused. I think this is a real shame. The reason why Deadly Arts remain almost untouched imo is because of the needed attribute split. Most skills are just not worth the split. So time for a power up.

Disrupting Dagger
10e - 1/2sec -5r
Spell. Send out a Disrupting Dagger at target foe that strikes for 10…20 damage. If that foe was activating a skill, that skill is interrupted and that foe takes 10…20 damage.

Enduring Toxin
5e - 1sec - 10r
Hex Spell. For 5 seconds, target foe suffers -2…8 Health degeneration. If target foe dies, All foes in the area are hexed with Enduring Toxin.
(Most of the time degen sucks. But when this skill is used properly is effect could be pretty powerful.)

Entangling Asp
5e - 10r
Skill. Entangling Asp must follow a lead attack. Target touched foe takes 10…30 damage and is knocked down.
(Good skill, but 20 sec recharge is to mutch.)

Expose Defenses
10e - 1sec - 10r
Enchantment Spell. For 5…20 seconds, the next time your attack is blocked all nearby foes take 50…120 damage.

Expunge Enchantments
10e - 1sec - 8r
Spell. Target foe loses 1 enchantment. For each remaining enchantment on target foe that foe takes 20...40 damage.

Impale
5e - 1/2sec - 5r
Skill. Must follow a dual attack. Target foe is struck for 25...85 damage and suffers from a Deep Wound for 5…20 seconds.
(Good looking skill, tried for a long time to get this skill to work on my bar. Didn't work. Made the damage armor ignoring because we all hate the HM foes with way to much armor vs elements.)

Iron Palm
5e - 3/4sec - 6r
Skill. Must follow a lead attack. Target touched foe suffers 5...40 damage, and if that foe is suffering from a hex that foe is knocked down. Iron Palm counts as an off-hand attack.

Lift Enchantment
5e - 1/2sec - 8r
Skill. If target touched foe is knocked down, that foe loses all enchantments.

Mark of Insecurity [E]
10e - 1/2sec - 20r
Elite Hex Spell. For 5…20 seconds, target foe suffers from -1..4 Health degeneration, and is interrupted whenever you strike critical. If target foe dies Mark of Insecurity is recharged.
(Useful in PvP, not in PvE)

Sadist's Signet
1sec - 10r
Signet. You steal 10...34 Health the next 0…4 times you hit a foe suffering from a condition.

Shameful Fear
5e - 1sec - 15r
Hex Spell. For 5…15 seconds, while suffering from a condition target foe attacks and cast spells 10…50% slower.

Shroud of Silence [E]
10e - 3/4sec - 10r
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5…30 Whenever you strike critical target foe and all Adjacent foes are Dazed for 1...3 seconds.

Signet of Deadly Corruption
1sec - 10r
Signet. Your next 2…8 attack skills strike for +0…5 additional damage for each condition on target foe.

Signet of Shadows
1sec - 10r
Signet. The next 0…3 times you land a critical hit, target foe and all nearby foes are blinded for 5…10 seconds.

Signet of Toxic Shock
1sec - 10r
Signet. The next time you hit a foe suffering from Poison you strike for an additional +20…40 damage.

Siphon Speed
5e - 3/4sec - 8r
Hex Spell. For 5…15 seconds, target touched foe attacks 25% slower and you attack 25% faster.

Siphon Strength [E]
5e - 3/4sec - 7r
Elite Hex Spell. For 5...17 seconds, target touched foe deals -10...40 damage with attacks and all of your attacks deal +5…20 damage against that foe.

Vampiric Assault
5e - 1/2sec - 6r
Melee Attack. Must follow an dual attack. If this attack hits, you steal 10…60 Health.

Way of the Empty Palm [E]
5e - 1sec - 10r
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5…15 seconds, you attack 25…33% faster and your attack skills recharge 25...50% faster
(Properly will need to rework this one seeing people will abuse it to KD lock opponents. Suggestions are welcome!)




Survivability
Something a lot of Assassins miss. Even though the Assassin is an hit and run profession they should still be able to survive to a certain extent.

Assassin's Remedy
5e - 1/4sec - 15r
Enchantment Spell. For 10…20 seconds you lose 1 condition whenever you score a critical hit.

Flashing Blades [E]
10e - 10r
Elite Stance. For 5…15 seconds, each time you make a critical hit all nearby foes become blinded for 0…4 seconds and take 5…15 damage.

Feigned Neutrality
5e - 1sec - 15r
Enchantment Spell. For 5…10 seconds, you have 5…10 Health regeneration and take half damage. This enchantment ends if you successfully hit with an attack or use a skill.

Mirrored Stance
5e - 1/2sec - 5r
Hex Spell. For 10...30 seconds, you have a 50% change to block target foes attacks

Shadow Refuge
5e - 3/4sec - 10r
Enchantment Spell. For 6 seconds, you gain 5…10 Health regeneration. If your health drops bellow 50%, you Shadow Step to a nearby location directly away from your target and Shadow Refuge ends. You gain 30…80 health when Shadow Refuge ends.

Shadow Shroud [E]
10e - 1sec - 30r
Elite Skill. The next 0…3 times you would take fatal damage that damage is negated and you are healed for 50…180 health.
(Even though it will cost an elite slot in hard areas this skill might be worth it.)

Shadow of Haste
5e - 15r
Stance. For 10…20 seconds you move 25% faster than normal. If damage drops your Health below 50…25%, Shadow of Haste ends. When Shadow of Haste ends, you Shadow Step to your original location.
(A better Assassins dares to take more risks)

Smoke Powder Defense
10e - 15r
Stance. For 5…15 seconds, whenever you take more than 10% max Health due to damage from a single attack or Spell. All Nearby foes are Blinded for 2...5 seconds.

Signet of Malice
1sec - 5r
Signet. For each condition suffered by target foe, you gain 20 health




Support
Most support Assassins can offer now is as tank or by killing stuff fast. But I think Assassins should be capable of much more.

Aura of Displacement [E]
5e - 1sec - 30r - maintained
Elite Enchantment Spell. The next time your health drops bellow 50% you Shadow Step to the closest party member in the area. Summon a level 20 Shadow Clone that has Golden Fox Strike, Fox Fangs, and Nine Tail Strike. (50% fail chance with Critical Strikes 7 or less.)
(Getting close to dying -> run away -> summon someone else to do the fighting for you -> recover -> get back into the action with your new friend. And only 1 Shadow Clone possible since it is a maintained enchantment.)

Shadow Meld [E]
5e - 1sec - 30r - maintained
Elite Enchantment Spell. The next time target other ally health drops bellow 50%, summon a level 20 Shadow Clone that has Blinding Powder, Shameful Fear, and Signet of Shadows (50% fail chance with Critical Strikes 7 or less.)
(Some powerful defences for your weaker party members. Just a note you'll need a other party member for this skill to activate. But the enchantment is maintained on yourself.)

Spirit Walk
5e - 1/2sec - 10r
Spell. You and target summoned creature Shadow Step to each other's location. After 1 second target summoned creature is destroyed and allies nearby that creature gain 50 health.



Utility
I still had some skills remaining so here they are.

Dark Apostasy [E]
5e - 1/2sec - 10r
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 3...14 seconds, every time you successfully land a critical hit, you steal 15…30 Health.

Deadly Haste
5e - 15r
Stance. Next time you hit with an Dual Attack you take 80…30 damage and all your attack skills are recharged.

Locust's Fury [E]
10e - 1sec - 30r
Elite Skill. For 10...30 seconds, you strike for +20…30 damage and have an additional 50% chance to double strike while using daggers. This skill ends when you use an Attack Skill.
(Think this skills has the possibility to become a great skill, but not when you need to sacrifice damage from attack skills for double strikes.)

Palm Strike [E]
5e - 1/2sec - 6r
Elite Skill. Target touched foe takes 20…80 damage and suffers from Cracked Armor for 1…6 seconds.
(Activate before chain to do extra damage with cracked armor. Activate after for a nice spike.)

Seeping Wound [E]
5e - 1/2sec - 6r
Elite Hex Spell. For 5…10 seconds, target foe takes 1…10 damage each second for each condition target foe is suffering. This spell has half the normal range.

Fox's Promise [E]
10e - 20r
Elite Skill. For 5…20 seconds, your dagger attacks cannot be blocked and strike for +5…10 damage each time you land a critical hit.

Shadowy Burden
5e - 1sec - 10r
Hex Spell. For 0…5 seconds, target foe has 20 less armor against your attacks. This hex is reapplied whenever you strike target foe with an critical attack.

Unseen Fury
5e - 1sec - 20r
Skill. For 10…20 seconds your attacks have a additional 30…70% to strike critical against blinded foes. Your attacks cannot miss Blinded foes.

Way of Perfection
5e - 15r
Stance. For 15...30 seconds, whenever you successfully land a critical hit, you gain 20…40 Health.

Way of the Fox
5e - 15r
Stance. For 15...30 seconds, whenever you successfully land a critical hit, your next attack can not be blocked.

Way of the Lotus
5e - 15r
Stance. For 15...30 seconds, whenever you successfully land a critical hit, you gain 0…2 Energy

Caltrops
10e - 1sec - 15r
Spell. For 10…20 seconds, all foes in the area take 5…15 damage each second they are moving.

Hidden Caltrops [E]
10e - 1sec - 10r
Elite Hex Spell. For 5…20 seconds all foes in the area become hexed with Hidden Caltrops.All suffer from -0…4 health degeneration and take 10…30 damage whenever they use a skill.

Mark of Instability
10e - 1/2sec - 15r
Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, the next time you hit target foe with a dual attack skill that foe is knocked down.

Signet of Twilight
1sec - 12r
Signet. For each condition on you deal 20 damage to target foe. (maximum 80)


That’s it folks.

And as for Shadow Form.
Just make it that you can't cast any other spells while under it. Problem solved.

Didn't bother to read through it, only this I immediately noticed, then scrolled through everything and saw your suggestions:
No offense, no flame, but do me a favor: go play ele, then come back and complain about recharges.

I see you put a lot of work into this and I did try to read most of it but it's late. Will need more looking at but something I noticed was your Locusts Strike. It's a bit too overpowered. A potentially perma-unstrippable-except-in-death-skill that grants +30 perma damage and 50% double strikes? Even though you popped the "ends on use of an attack skill" clause, I can't see who would mind when they can be doing so much damage and double hit kills especially when combined with things like soh.

true.


About the rework, it is indeed very good but do you think ANET will do that changes? I'm just afraid that all that good work was just pure waste of time (at least you've had a good time doing it right?)

The moment assassins get "nearby" range crap, without nerfs to Shadow Form AND Death Blossom spam (adjacent) the game will be even more broken. I was already ticked when they started putting nearby range on mesmer stuff. Nearby range at the start was an Ele only property, except for Cry of frustration which has in the area at a cost of 15e and 20 recharge (now it's completely broken in comparison to 10 recharge ele damage).

Blinding Surge, an elite is adjacent, and you're proposing NEARBY blind, for 0 energy and non elite status.

Consume soul is an elite version of your Spirit walk more or less.

The amount of bar compression mechanisms you're proposing is horrendous. Attack skills with shadow steps?

I worry about Motivation (Paragons), traps, ranger spirits, pet AI, ele damage in HM. Assassins? lol. About 70+% of sin damage is armor ignoring when using attack skills, Daggers give at most 24 (33 on crit). SoH, conjures, GDW, etc. are all armor ignoring.

If anything sins need a nerf:
Shadow Form
Death Blossom to 4 recharge or reduced AOE damage (see cyclone axe/crude swing/triple chop/whirlwind attack/eremite's attack/etc.)
* See other AoEs: Jungle Strike (why does this even have AoE?...it's 10 recharge though) ; Golden Phoenix Strike (AoE on 8r)
* sins were supposed to be in-and-out not "spam death blossom on recharge for 45 adjacent PBAOE"

I know your very keen on this and hope someone takes notice.

I would comment thus, its the underused classes that tend to get a rework.

Assassins have already been reworked to reduce some of their power why would they reverse that.

Lets face it assassins are one of the most popular classes, even with the nerf of shadow-form they continue to be used solo and en mass to farm areas of the game.
I would also say they are probably one of the most overused and successful pve classes for general play.

What is the justification to reworking them with a view to making them stronger.

Maybe some of their skills need a rework so do all the classes I would guess that Assassins are low on the priority list for a rework since on the whole they work very well.
Paragon is next on their list with hopefully Ele and Ranger fighting to be next up.

/notsigned

other classes need to be reworked way before the sin.

I agreed with Swingline. Other classes need a rework and sin can still manage lots of damages without rework yet. Even though the class was nerfed, It still is one of the most powerful to run even for a casual player like me.

First line of the post....


I know Assassins are already powerful players when it comes down to farming. But these changes are ment for casual PvE. No farming involved.


And yes Shadow Form should be nerfed. But there are already a load of other treads about it so why should I bother.

To be absolutely honest, most of the skills you are suggesting are ridiculously overpowered.

I like the concepts of certain skills, but I dont believe daggers are an issue. Jagged - Fox - Death Blossom is an amazing combo, and even with the buffs uve suggested I doubt would change much (with the possible excception of assault enchantments being used as a lead if it recieved 1/2 attack speed). The elite people use with it (wota) is in reality pretty crap. People run it because theres no better option for a build like that.

This. We have a caster voted to damage that do NOT do damage and have ridicolous e-management/cast tima/recharge(Ele) and a bow physical attacker FULL of stupid skill/mechanics like traps/pets/preps(Ranger). Just to name the two most important profs that should be reworked.

If as physical you need/want a buff, you're doing ti wrong. Meele profs are already no-brain-playing(with all respect to player that use mostly meele profs). Use heroes to buff yourself to death(spliter-soh-orders says hi), run in a mob and make it explode. Even if talking of Hm Dg like Fmaw or Exile.

As Ele i HAD to run ER prot, as Ranger you'll probably run a R/Rt Sos to do HM Dg(talking of 3hero+4henc party).

About pvp, Anet has already decided how to balance sins (see latest skills rework like mantis and coward...)

QFT

Other classes need to be reworked, while the Sin doesn't

They are already very powerful players in PvE too. I am probably getting my second GWAMM on my ssin, but I'm not entirely sure yet, but I am already doing little things, like some missions getting master etc, I experiment with builds, and it's pretty hard to take a lead - offhand- dual combo that doesn't do shittons of damage.

Assassins are powerful, strong, reliable etc. They need no rework.

If you're going to update the assassin, revert it to what it was. A shadowstepping wannabe warrior. The cowardly one. Remove aftercast on shadowsteps or make them Stances/skills like Shadow of Haste.

Kill Shadowform and bring back shadowsteps, and I'd say good game.

....No suggestions for assassin's promise rework? Shame.

i think you put way too much effort in theory crafting as far as changing the assassin class, without doing your homework first.

you know, it would've been best if you had took the time to understand the state of the game, and how balance and class design works in this game, and just a general concept of guild wars, because from what i've read, it seems you entirely miss out on all of those crucial concepts.

what i'm saying is, how the hell you gonna try to change something you don't even understand?

the dev team do it quite well

after looking at this i feel the same way

Good suggestions and valid points. Much like the ranger, the sin is still overlooked in PvE when it's limited to a few good builds. Sure they have some good pve skills but the options are still limited. As people have said though, it is very unlikely for them to put effort on a class they've already paid attention to.

Whatever they do to assassins will be poor indeed compared to the gw2 thief class.
Would love to do some of the things they can.

Lol? Seriously? There are so many different possible combo's when playing assassin. People just don't experiment themselves. All they do it take pre-made builds off PvX and then complain there is no variety.

Stop being bad and start playing the game, you'll notice soon enough how powerful they are.

I can't believe this is still an issue. Everyone who wants a sin rework seriously needs to play an ele, ranger and para before looking at the sin.

Ranger has had a rework. The only thing that needs fixing is the Pet AI.
Fix that and you're laughing.

Paragon are just long-ranged warriors with party-wide tactics. Tactics are weak=party-wide tactics are weak, see?

Elementalist skills aren't the problem, it's Hard Mode's scaling of what's considered "hard". Funny how making all foes have +1337 armour when the majority of player damage being armour ignoring makes the game much harder. Owait.

What you did to Aura of Displacement and Shadow Meld should be reason for life imprisonment. Shadow Clones...wtf is this Naruto?

/not signed.

I'm amazed people tell other to "look at the state of the game" and then spit on the idea of a Sin re-work.

Do any of you even understand how the game works? Look at the PvE meta, and the prevalence of Sin TANKS. That right there should make it glaringly obvious that its a big problem.

Perhaps if Sin TANKS weren't so easy to pull off and readily available, it would require more teamwork and bring in less used professions to high end PvE.

A Sin rework to make them more.. well Assassin like and less flying brick like, would be better for the overall health of the game, and might open up newer and better playstyles for multiple classes that are now marginalized.

I would certainly like to see the Sin re-worked to be more of a teleporting glass cannon that relies on mobility and quick reflexes to survive, and less on skills like Shadow Form or Save Yourselves! to be of a value to the party.

What ANet could do would be to take away any method of doling out AoE damage on the Sin class, since its supposed to Assassinate not wtfpwn entire zones. Then as the OP suggested make recharges less and shadowstepping more prevalent, and I think that would fix the Sin class pretty much.

Sure, people say the Sin is already powerful, but I would say its powerful in the WRONG way, as in its not doing what the class concept claims. I would prefer Sins able to wtfpwn in seconds single targets like healers and elementalists, WITHOUT being able to decimate the area around them, and relying on compressed shadowsteps to enter and exit battle.

AoE should be the province of Elementalists.

Yep, and where did I make a reference to tanking? This thing isn't about making ssins better or worse tanks. This is about ssins in general PvE, you know, the guys with the daggers? And they are more than enough powerful combo's around to be viable. Still don't see use for it.

Just because you want to bury your head in the sand doesn't mean others do.

While its not the end all be all, the PvX meta builds are a good "health" indicator for the general state of the game.

The Sin has WoTA for one PvP build, a generic Dagger chain composed of JS-FF-DB, and then EVERY other build is a SF tank more or less.

Have you even been to DoA, UW, FoW, Deep/Urgoz, etc.? Find a Sin there who's critscythe, or uses a DA throwing dagger build, or a 5 attack skill chain, or pretty much anything not based on SF-tanking. If you do, I can guarantee they won't find a group, unless of course they go DwG, but that's not really a prof build is it?

Again, PvX isn't the end word, but its a place where a large portion of the playerbase gets its ideas as well as showing what the current meta is doing, which IS powerful, optimized and used, regardless of any elitist nay-sayers turning their noses up. Its a good litmus test, and shows how pigeonholed the Sin is, much like the Derv and Mez were prior to their updates.

It doesn't matter if Elementalist, Ranger Paragons, Warriors or if every other profession in the game is in dire need of an update and the Assassin isn't.
This suggestion is not about priortizing the Assassin over the Elementalist, it's plain and simple just the OP putting out his idea's of what would be in the best interest of the Assassin profession.

Agreeing or disagreeing with a suggestion should happen on the basis that the suggestion or the way it was worded are good or bad, not that someone else needs it more. If we went by that mentality then what is the point of having a suggestion forum. It would all just degrade to "No offense, no flame, but there shouldn't be a suggestion for titles,lag, account theft, new content because Elementalist aren't good in hard Mode".

To the actual suggestions themselves. If I go deeper than my first post.
OP reduced the recharge of a bunch of skills, and those skills are still sub-optimal looking at them then Jagged-Fox fangs- Death blossom.
The OP then goes further in taking away from the feel of the profession and concept by adding mechanics that have no business being there like Shadow clones from AoD and Shadow meld.
There were interesting idea's in there like Dark Prison that at the same time come off as ridiculous. Beguiling Haze being so potent we might as well delete Bronze Head arrow from the game.
Swap being able to screw up the PvE game by straight swapping out priority targets, which would also make the current Shadow Form even more powerful. Unseen Fury is crap except oh wait we have that Ebon vanguard blind attack, so it's what just giving Hammer Warriors and others substantial critical rate possibilities and doing what for the Assassin?

Outside of a few interesting idea's I would note I don't see much purpose in most of these suggestion.

How are all these dagger skills comparing to JFD? When they are not available on demand in the same way JFD is. Is the purpose then to put Moebius Strike with all of these new skills?

To be more constructive.
Spirit Walk means an Assassin can go and destroy his team mates Spirit for what purpose, an insignificant heal. Again with the AoD and Shadow Meld skills, that is not the Assassin. Assassins are not a support profession, they are not meant to support the team. The type of support they provide is setting up conditions or hexes that may synergize with what the rest of the team is doing, but they do not heal the team in addition the healing support from spirit walk is meh except if some team went and organized themself. Even on that note a ritualist can already destroy their own spirits to heal the party. It's creeping into territory they do not need to be in.

I don't know what your aiming for changing Caltrops when PvE mobs do not move much and at least Caltrops grants a condition which helps to synergize with team skills based on conditions and slow down any melee foes from chasing after your backline. Why did Hidden caltrops become Vision of Regret?

OP has changed a lot of skills that were already good and made them..wierd to say the least.

This one almost made me shit my pants lol. Uhuh, I have been. A couple times. I'm not that familiar with it though. The best I could do is 24 minutes though, but that's because the Gloom team was meh-ish that run.
Only been there a couple times, but never stayed long. Last time I was there we were there for about 8 minutes, but then we had to stop, cause he was already dead.

Also, the reason you don't see any critscythes running around, is because critscythes got nerfed. Also, last time I looked, OP meant changes to assassin, not dervishes. I seem to remember something about dervishes being buffed a while ago, it's vague though, so probably nothing..

Anyway, gotta stop the elitism.. Let's get back to the point. If the most creative you can come up with is WoTA with JS, FF and DB, you're sad and you should stop playing ssin tbh. When I play my ssin, I always take different combo's. Some might have some high recharge, but who cares? I still get everything to die.
The dagger attacks have been designed in such a way that there are all sorts of cool combo's you can do, a lot with KD's and such too.

@ Above, I know that this was just a suggestion, and I did read the OP (I had first post) but my point was, no matter how you put it, Assassins do not need a rework in PvE, except for Deadly Arts maybe. The rest is pretty ok, with the exception of some very useless skills though. But nothing compared to the other professions.

Really? And as a Sin yourself or the Sins in the team you were on, what build did they run? And in which difficulty?

And what build did he use?

I have to believe you're joking about having no idea of the Derv update recently, because if you're not, well... that's just sort of unbelievable. Critscythe IS still viable by the way, its just not as OP as before with the reduction in crit damage on the scythe.

Reading is your friend. I never said that's all I could come up with, in fact my post said nothing of the sort. What I said was that PvX and meta builds are a good way to gauge the health of a profession overall within the game. The more build variation that's accepted as powerful or useful, the better for the individual class. If the overall playerbase accepts that a profession only has one or two useful builds, such as Imbagon for Paras, then such a class needs to be looked at, period. And right now, apart from SF builds for Sins, there's only a small handful of accepted meta builds. Regardless of what builds you personally come up with, you are just one person, its the community at large that matters.

That is your opinion. Assassins as they are NOW are nowhere near their original class concept of sneaky, agile hit and run guerilla types, instead banking on their ability to TANK elite end game areas.

Its the same concept as E/Mo Prot/Infuse being better than monks in some ways, but that is the Ele's only useful end game HM build. According to your logic, Eles don't need a revamp either. I would say that your logic is pretty terrible...

I never tanked a 24min lol, my fastest is like 37min. Also, you totally missed my sarcasm in the first part of this post.

I think you missed my point here, the assassin wasn't dead in 8 minutes, Urgoz was. http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1289/gw330.jpg


Uhuh, and my point was that this thread has nothing to do with critscythes, so bringing them up was kind of redundant. Also, I was sarcastic.


The fact that you are using PvX to make/compare your builds is kind of sad, because PvX is in NO WAY a way to depict a profession and it's competence. If you can't make the builds yourself, you're playing the game wrong.


That is not my opinion, that is my observation. If I hit 80-90 with dagger skills in HM PvE, I think my assassin is still pretty strong.

Where did I say Eles don't need a revamp? They need, and quickly! They suck ass and need to be completely reworked.

False.
Moving on, PvX still isn't a good way to measure the health of the profession.
JFD isn't the only build in PvX because it's the only dagger build that works in General PvE it's there because they don't feel like including any other dagger builds. Plenty of builds work "great" or "good" in PvE.

Okay, you're totally missing what I'm getting at here. What build do you suppose the two Sins in your pic were running? Critscythe? MS+DB? CritBarrage? DA Thrower? Or are they in fact dual tanking with SF?

Again, you're missing the point. PvX may not be the repository of the secret uber builds, but its a site with aggregated build info that has been vetted by MANY MANY people and they work well. And the point is that PvX acts as a gauge of a professions build variety, and consequently how well it is designed and whether it fulfills a even and balanced role in the game. Which is why the Paragon needs a revamp pretty badly, as does the Ele in PvE at least.

Think of it as national polling data. Not every family has 2.3 kids (having 0.3 of a child isn't even physically possible) but its a good indication of the average.

Any Sin can do that with auto-attacks and enough buffs. In fact most melee classes can do that easily, my Derv and War can too. Does that mean that the Sin and War/Derv have the exact same build variety? No of course not, which is the whole point of the thread.

Because they have one build that is generally over-used to the exclusion of all others. As does the Assassin, although being melee is still more capable.

Btw, I found your build in your quick uber Urgoz run:

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_Urgoz_Caster_Spike

This is silly at the end of the day Assassins do not efficiently play as they are described but instead efficiently play as linear warriors that spit out aoe.
To use Brights logic in that case my Elementalist may not deal 80-90 damage per hit, but they protect anyone in the party for practically no energy. I think my Elementalist is pretty strong.

If your profession isn't playing as it "should" be playing you can voice your opinion, hell even if it isn't people don't die from suggesting anything.

Also seriously, PvX is not a good way to measure a class.
Assassins have other chains that work in PvE efficiently, but they are not listed because JFD is just in general better.
Golden Fox Strike, Wild Strike, Ninetails strike works fine too as an unblockable combo, but it's not going to be listed on PvX in general PvE.
Flourish and Assassin's Promise, Assassins work fine in PvE as well, but they are nowhere to be listed in PvE...actually I think the Flourish sin is in the PvP section or archived for being a pvp build.

Bottom line PvX is not a good standard as a build doesn't need to be bad to not be on PvX it just doesn't need to be voted on and if the whole community loves JFD, you may see no variety just because the community doesn't want anything else represented.

That's an extremely contradictory pair of statements.

I never said (man I get tired of typing that) PvX was a good way to measure a class's ability or efficiency.

What I've been typing is that PvX's compilation is a good way to measure the community and playerbase's accepted notion of a profession's overall usefulness. As in statistical averages.

Take Paras as an example. Other than Imbagon on the PvE side, there's nothing "meta." Now of course there are a multitude of builds, but none as effective or efficient. You can play a Mending Wammo too, but that doesn't mean its good.

If Paras were to get a skill re-work such that they had seven or eight "meta" builds, not just Imbagon then necessarily that would mean the class was "healthier" than before.

Its the same concept with Assassins. They have a couple "meta" builds, that are focused around TANKing or one type of Dagger build. With a re-work, you could see an enlargement of the meta to include DA and shadow-stepping.

And PvX IS a good metric to use, since ANet periodically adjusts skills from time to time, the meta is a good indication of what their changes accomplish.

To disavow or ignore these facts is simply turning your nose up at a wonderful tool that PvX represents, not to mention that 95% of the PvE game is in fact dominated by PvX meta builds, regardless of what Guru elitists wish to believe.

What was contradictory.
PvX is not showing you all the viable assassin builds, it is showing you one build that it feels is the most viable in "General". It's decided that JFD is so good, other things are not worth mention but that does not mean those other skills are not viable in PvE and that other skills do not have niches that they fill.

If you honestly think all builds are equal your off your rocker and for the Assassin in PvE they have decided that they prefer JFD to all else and as such have ommitted anything else.

To put an anology. If you come first place out of 1000 in a race you are great, if you come in second and third you are good, but PvX has ommited second and third place.
So that doesn't show the quality of the race/profession it just shows what comes in first for being general.

On that same note I could take off all but 1 build from every profession and say "In most general situations this will do best" and it's the same thing.

If I take of Psychic Instability bars from Mesmers and just leave Panic, are you going to think "well Mesmers can only use panic" if you do, your missing something. Panic has better use in general than Psychic Instability in PvE though.

PvX isn't a good way to measure the health of something it may support a claim but it does not prove a claim.
Now if you can prove that Assassins have a limited option through I dunno more... thorough discussion and then use PvX to support your claim well then how can i disagree. Just saying "Look they only have 1 meta build" is ridiculous however.

Profession 1: 5 Meta builds
-Subset 1: 15 Great builds

Profession 2: 1 Meta build
-Subset 2: 8 Great builds


Now out of those two professions which is more varied and useable in more situations?

I KNOW how PvX works. What you don't seem to understand is statistical averages.

The first profession has multiple builds, that does not mean that profession is usable in more situations at all.
If I have 1 build that makes me perform my role perfectly I don't need 15 great builds, period. If that one build of mine has say 3 optional slots, and I just change 3 out of 5 skills depending on the situation, why do I need 15 great or Meta builds? I don't.
Your number of builds shows that your class has a number of builds. If your think that every class should have 2 meta builds, 10 great, builds and 12 good builds, and any class that has less then that is not healthy, your pretending everyone has the same role in Guild Wars, which would not be true. I'd go even further that you'd be suggesting we all have the same amount of skills to make builds out of to begin with, also ignoring duplicate skills and the like, and the whole nature of PvX's optional slots.

If a profession is performing it's role efficiently, they do not need 10 different builds at all.

Are you telling me that because the Imbagon build performs damage reduction so well, that there is no need for any other build or playstyle?

Or that E/Mo Protters are so good at protection that they should be happy to have a role and not get a skill update?

Have you missed completely the Mesmer update making them damage viable in PvE (extremely so) or the Derv update making them competitive again?

Again, you've missed the point of PvXwiki and the argument in general.

Would you be happy with a Warrior Meta where WE Axe was the only good build, and all other weapons sucked?

Would you prefer Monks to suck at healing, but be able to tank n spank as 55s everywhere?

The point is, AGAIN, that the fewer meta or accepted power builds a profession has, the worse off the profession is. ESPECIALLY as you mentioned above if the profession's one awesome build isn't even what it was intended for in the first place, such as E/Mo Protting or SF Tanking.

You didn't understand what I said.
I said if a profession performs ITS role. As in the described role of their concept.
Not an elementalist playing E/Mo.

I'm pretty sure that if we adhered to your logic, then ANet and the playerbase as you claim would be happy if every primary profession just had one attribute out of Tank, DPS, Nuke, Heal and Prot.

Because as you say, if a class is performing its role, why is there a need for any variation? I'm sure that having 10 professions when 5 would be enough, or hundreds of skills that aren't all equivalent is just fluff and not meant to enable differentiated gameplay.

Nah, couldn't be.