Hero Meta: A Guide

When a Flowstone elemental is about to drop a Savannah's Heat on your party, no amount of targeted prots will work better than WaH. Heroes will cast their wards as soon as combat begins, whereas they cast targeted prots only AFTER you start taking damage. Now maybe you will answer that you can flag heroes apart, micro-precast prots, etc. Well for people who don't want to have to do everything themselves, WaH is a very good defensive spell.

Quote: You don't have to flag your heroes, although it is always advised if facing several Flowstones. No; all you need for lazyway is one copy of Prot Spirit, SoA and one or two party-heals. Rarely will all 7 heroes be hit, or for long.

Wards are slow, clunky and promote bad play. However, that isn't always what Meta builds try to avoid, but on this occasion Wards are still ignored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
Taking two spirits on one bar is pointless when you're probably using a SoS rit too. You can give them Rt/Me for rupt e-management, etc. Taking two spirits on one bar is pointless? Well, if both spirits have interesting effect, and you have the energy to cast them, why not use them /Me e-manaagement is all good, but what happens when you face W/R/P mobs?

Also, if you're gonna discuss why bars shouldn't be included in meta because there are others that work better, then you can remove 90% of what is in the main post.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navis View Post
When a Flowstone elemental is about to drop a Savannah's Heat on your party, no amount of targeted prots will work better than WaH. Heroes will cast their wards as soon as combat begins, whereas they cast targeted prots only AFTER you start taking damage. Now maybe you will answer that you can flag heroes apart, micro-precast prots, etc. Well for people who don't want to have to do everything themselves, WaH is a very good defensive spell.
Taking two spirits on one bar is pointless? Well, if both spirits have interesting effect, and you have the energy to cast them, why not use them /Me e-manaagement is all good, but what happens when you face W/R/P mobs?

Also, if you're gonna discuss why bars shouldn't be included in meta because there are others that work better, then you can remove 90% of what is in the main post. Life is good, but you can't really depend on it unless your fights take 15~ seconds or so. Generally not the case unless you pre-cast it. It's an unreliable source of heal, generally for the end of a fight where it doesn't matter. The other spirit's effect is pretty bad.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

I only bring life for minion healing :/ otherwise rejuv all the way. If you aren't running offensive spirits for some reson though, you do need a reliable spirit light powerer, which life/recovery do.

Anyone watch heroes actually use flail? I hear they won't even try unless target is KD'd. And phys heroes tend to waste alot of time running between targets, so the movement reduction can be a real liability. Seems like dervish heroes with HoF and an enchant boost would be better "warriors" half the time...

Water elites are pretty meh specially for heroes, so WaH is ok, so is MoI. Might just go with Elemental Attunement and let them spam deep freeze and maelstrom.

Edit: don't get the ward hate. Yeah, they aren't often used reliably, their effects are sometimes questionable, but people used to bring the earth ele hench just for the wards. As mentioned the questionable part is you're using an ele at all, but if you are, might as well get some milage out of it. Ward vs melee is worth a single slot on an earth ele, and the water elites are bad enough that ward vs harm is an OK choice vs fire. A pretty good one actually before we had panic to deal with places like sacnoth and hell's.

AndrewSX

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

Apart that ward are quite useless and plenty of drawbacks, a hero will never use it worthy(like happens to spirits anyway:but they so OP that u can ignore that...).

1-The problem ins't "Heroes balls toghether, let's put a ward on them" is that if u put a ward, they will try to stay in as much as possible. Which means that you'll surely be protected against Sh and SF, but your heroes will take it for amolst the full duration (and almost all heroes will do).
2-Why use wards when u can:-use imbagon or meele to keep up as much as u can SY!(+100AR)?I know that is viable for a little part of prof combinations(and played by human), but still...-As said, if u can't use SY!, prots>wards(shelter is an example, but if most of team is protted Spirit bond and Prot spirit are awesome).
3-As for spirits, is matter of field placement, cause wards are (atm) static. If they are dinamic(centered around caster, for example), they could be a little more desiderable. Generally heroes will cast wards(like spirits) quite random, compared to the human behaviour(4 spirits summoned all times you face a mob, even if alone, and then not ready when you'll face a large group).
4-Apart all this....how many times you'll face so much fire dmg to justify taking an elite slot for a ward? Kath, the burning forest in sacnot valley, and myba some place in nf with ruby djiins.

Alathin

Alathin

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2011

R/A

Looks amazing so far. Keep up the great work.

LexTalionis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewSX
View Post
Apart that ward are quite useless and plenty of drawbacks, a hero will never use it worthy(like happens to spirits anyway:but they so OP that u can ignore that...).

1-The problem ins't "Heroes balls toghether, let's put a ward on them" is that if u put a ward, they will try to stay in as much as possible. Which means that you'll surely be protected against Sh and SF, but your heroes will take it for amolst the full duration (and almost all heroes will do).
2-Why use wards when u can:-use imbagon or meele to keep up as much as u can SY!(+100AR)?I know that is viable for a little part of prof combinations(and played by human), but still...-As said, if u can't use SY!, prots>wards(shelter is an example, but if most of team is protted Spirit bond and Prot spirit are awesome).
3-As for spirits, is matter of field placement, cause wards are (atm) static. If they are dinamic(centered around caster, for example), they could be a little more desiderable. Generally heroes will cast wards(like spirits) quite random, compared to the human behaviour(4 spirits summoned all times you face a mob, even if alone, and then not ready when you'll face a large group).
4-Apart all this....how many times you'll face so much fire dmg to justify taking an elite slot for a ward? Kath, the burning forest in sacnot valley, and myba some place in nf with ruby djiins. Ward of Stability is okay. Wards work best with EBSoH/EBSoW anyway. Ward Against Foes can be occasionally useful in PvE. The main thing is that they're unremovable and have no counters, so they're good versus metagame enemy builds like Mallyx.

That being said, in nearly any situation where you'd use Ward Against Harm, I think you'd prevent more damage if you just used Technobabble and Complicate. I don't even know why people still complain about Ruby djinns, the only times they're seriously annoying is when they're with Roaring Ethers and that's definitely more because of the Ethers than the Djinns.

@the OP: Don't leave out Banishing Strike. It should be part of the Dervish Meta.

AndrewSX

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

@ Lex:
Yes, i'm not against wards by themselves, but what their use product: you and all your team will most likelly ball nicely in it. And i'm not sure that a similar exposure to -GOREDENGINE- AoE dmg from HM mobs is really worth using those. I mean, if you use ward against elements when facing eles you're more resilient to their dmg, but they can hit the whole team toghether (and for ares like vabbi, if there are some roaring ether-Esurge- around, armor vs ele is useless, and balling the team will most likely have bad results for your hp).
Is just a "what you gain in ward" vs. "what you lose for stay all in ward".
And generally i think the latter wins.

LexTalionis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2011

But I already said - I generally don't have that problem because prevention is a lot better than mitigation or cure:

If it's one target with huge AoE damage, lock a mesmer on it or hit it with PI.

If it's a small group with some things that do huge AoE damage in it, lock a mesmer on each troublesome spellcaster and open with Technobabble into mistrusts.

If it's a large group of whatever, Open with EVAS, hit the entire thing with Technobabble and follow up with panic.

If it's a large group of spread out elementalists doing huge damage AoEs, please learn how to pull properly.

In any situation where I'd even consider bringing ward against harm just because it could protect my party against fire (I assume you want the anti-fire properties because if I just wanted 24 armour, it'd be inferior to EBSoC and if my party is going to sit still inside a ward getting hit by wards, I already run "Stand your ground!" and armour bonuses don't stack beyond 25.), I'd have to quantify running an entire ele with heavy water magic investment over using a shutdown mesmer or soul twister or FD mesmer or pretty much any other class that can shut down, cripple or deal with entire packs of casters. Heck, if it HAD to be an elementalist, I'd even prefer Thunderclap over Ward against Harm.

Wards in general can be okay, but I believe Ward against Harm is a very silly skill.

moenbase

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

I have to say, if these builds on the first page are actually working like they intended to. Then I find it very nicely putted together actually. I wonder why some people are negative about it.

It's been a long time since I played GW. About 3-4 years ago. From what I remember is that most missions and areas require different team setups. And some skills are highly recommended for certain areas/missions. Especially the end-game ones.
I mean, I guess the team setups isn't just a cookie cutter build for every situation. Please, do tell me if i'm wrong though.

Anyway. It has usefull information for me. When I quited GW, there wasn't much info available yet on what skills actually work on heroes.

thetwistedboy

thetwistedboy

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2009

I live right there, see?

Apostles of Oblivion

W/Mo

I don't think Ward Against harm is too bad, it was very nice when I decided to test it out. I just think I needs to get moved to Earth Magic. All the other wards are there and there aren't many useful skills in Water Magic beyond Maelstrom(Panic is better imo) and Deep Freeze(not necessary very often).
Quote: get moved to Earth Magic Quote:
All the other wards are there
Quote:
Wards = Earth Magic Can't agree more.

This is one of the things i'd really like to see if (hopefully anytime before gw2 comes out...) ele gets a overhaul. And Mind blast to Estorage too.

/End OT.

my pink phone

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2011

Uk

~

rly good job but its possible to update that awesome hero meta thread?

Warrior Of The Toon

Warrior Of The Toon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

Returning after a 50 month break. Hi.

None

R/

Great guide, although I've not tried any of it yet it's been very informative. Have there been any updates breaking these builds since it was last edited in March?

Jette Antral

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2007

This is helpful. I'll be directing my drug-addled friends with no game experience here when they need help. You've saved me a lot of time.

Showtime

Showtime

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

WTB Q9+5e Bows/Q8 14^50 Weapons

R/P

Anyone have a guide for weapon combos to use with each type in hm? Mostly want to see if anyone tested shield and spears on caster heros before I invest time into it. Was using 40/40 for smite monks and mesmers, and staffs on rits, but want to try something else if feasible.

Kaida the Heartless

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

Shield and spear works fine for just about any Hero other than a Minion Master because they need a large energy pool. A 40/40 set is still generally better though.

hunter

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Physway meta build is complete trash. Especially with a war primary which everyone and their mother seem to have. It works equally well with melee sin, dervish, and any other caster willing to equip a melee weapon and get dirty for a change of pace.

Start off with 2 RoJ, 1 for SoH and other for balthazar
1 AoL necro with prots
1 UA healer or another RoJ if you feeling ballsy
1 Dom mesmer with panic mistrust and unnatural signet (though mistrust is being hit hard next patch)
1 ST rit with shelter and union. Add in frozen soil in here when needed
1 SoS resto rit with splinter and ancestors

You can probably figure out and post the full builds on your own since time is something you don't seem to lack

WarcryOfTruth

WarcryOfTruth

Site Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2009

Atlanta

[LIFE]

P/

Ya! My main hero team is 3 Paragons, but I don't use necromancers, I use eles

Kaida the Heartless

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

Physway is centered around Orders/Mark of Pain and applying as many procs of them as possible in a short period of time. It usually contains 3-4 physical damage dealers and 3-4 support, however depending on the area, you can crank it to 6phys/2supp (Where the supports are AP Caller and Orders/MoP) and if you are a Necro, 7phys/1supp (Where you are the AP Caller and the Orders/MoP). (Technically, the AP Caller is a DPS, but it's there supplementing the Physical Damage in the party, so I just label it as support in this build.)

Hunter is referring to a build that took a large hit during the scythe changes, where before you could run around as a scythe wielding sin smacking targets for 300+ damage in AoE. It still works, albeit not as effectively. I would consider it more of a "buffway" than a "physway" if you want to name it. It involved Asuran Scan (changed, doesn't work any more), +Crit Chance, Orders, Mark of Pain, Strength of Honor, Judge's Insight, and Aura of Holy Might (changed, doesn't work any more).

Warcry is probably using an Orders Ele instead of a Cultist's Fervor Necro.

hunter

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

not necessarily. Its not a baller set up, its a "roll your face on your keyboard and win" set up. hence why the extra protection, and the UA hero. RoJs are the only thing you can prolly micro in there and even those i let them on autocast. The build is that effective.

As far as your physway requiring 2+ physicals, keep in mind that melee hero AI is horrendous, and that para dmg is about just as worse. Sure you can abuse splinter weapon or what not but splinter on a warrior spamming WW on cooldown is far superior to any group of paras pretending to do dmg. as it is right now, a caster hero, namely a smiter monk and a mesmer will bring much more to the table compared to a physical hero, while still helping buff up your main.

Unless paras are changed/buffed in next patch, my variant of physway is better.

Kaida the Heartless

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

Physway is less about the effectiveness of a single character and more about the effectiveness of a group of Heroes hitting a MoP'ed target. Paragons may not have massive damage output, but they can fill a support role very effectively while still adding a lot of DPS from both Mark of Pain and Barbs. There are also Rangers and their pets who can also put out respectable DPS in both Bow, Beast Master, and /P setups while also contributing to Mark of Pain and Barbs procs. The /P setup can also synergize with any Paragons in the Party. Getting the most procs in a short period of time is key, and that is what Physway is all about.

It is true, Melee works better in any "Buffway" setup. May as well take advantage of Strength of Honor on as many targets as possible. The AI is slower to react (making it worse with MoP), but there isn't much in the game that can withstand 3 buffed Melee DPS wailing on them.

Honestly, your "Physway" is more of a Casterway modified to suit a Melee primary. Nothing wrong with that. It's equally as effective as any MoP based Physway build, albeit in a slightly different way.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless View Post
Physway is less about the effectiveness of a single character and more about the effectiveness of a group of Heroes hitting a MoP'ed target. Paragons may not have massive damage output, but they can fill a support role very effectively while still adding a lot of DPS from both Mark of Pain and Barbs. There are also Rangers and their pets who can also put out respectable DPS in both Bow, Beast Master, and /P setups while also contributing to Mark of Pain and Barbs procs. The /P setup can also synergize with any Paragons in the Party. Getting the most procs in a short period of time is key, and that is what Physway is all about.

It is true, Melee works better in any "Buffway" setup. May as well take advantage of Strength of Honor on as many targets as possible. The AI is slower to react (making it worse with MoP), but there isn't much in the game that can withstand 3 buffed Melee DPS wailing on them.

Honestly, your "Physway" is more of a Casterway modified to suit a Melee primary. Nothing wrong with that. It's equally as effective as any MoP based Physway build, albeit in a slightly different way. I showcased my hero physway build here. Probably needs updating soon due to ele update (change mesmers for eles) because snares and ele damage is cool. A UA smite hero is actually better in place of the OoV hybrid.
http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Markway

hunter

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quite squishy with no ST. How far can you get in DoA with it

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier View Post
First, hero AI is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. I roll with dervs in my party pretty often, and I never have problems with their targeting, skill use, etc. I roll with empty skillbars pretty often, and I never have problems with their targeting, skill use, etc. They still attack the targets I ask them to, and they don't use skills like they're supposed to.

This is such a bad argument for hero AI being "not nearly as bad as people make it out to be" -_-

That said, I can clear DoA HM with no ST prot, although it might be easier with one, I'm not sure.

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
I roll with empty skillbars pretty often, and I never have problems with their targeting, skill use, etc. They still attack the targets I ask them to, and they don't use skills like they're supposed to.

This is such a bad argument for hero AI being "not nearly as bad as people make it out to be" -_- I hear the "melee AI is bad at targeting" arguement far more often than the "they don't use their skills correctly" arguement, at least for warriors and dervs. Don't scold me on this "being a bad argument" when so many equate the pet AI to that of the melee heroes.

Regardless, my VoS dervs have no problems with their skillbars. They maintain their enchantments and they use their attack skills just as often as a caster would use offensive spells. What more could I ask for?

Kaida the Heartless

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

Melee heroes tend to spend more time running between targets and the player than they need to. It drops their DPS by a large amount. It'd be nice if their aggro was a bit stickier so they would transition between targets better.