Hero Meta: A Guide
Lanier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
In other words, you can ask for them to deal more damage ...
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I roll with empty skillbars pretty often, and I never have problems with their targeting
Overaggroing isn't a problem if you aggro the mob correctly. Once again, it isn't the hero's job to ball or to aggro a mob. It is the player's job to ball mobs, take the initial aggro, and hold that aggro, regardless of profession. Then, the melee hero is there to provide copius amounts of damage.
Jeydra
See, that's the problem. If you want to ball mobs up (which is not necessarily for a spike btw - balled mobs simply take more damage from AoE) then you do it yourself. What are your melee heroes going to do then? Unless you micro hard, like putting them on avoid combat or something, they are going to join you in the frontlines and ruin your aggro control. If you don't put them on avoid combat, you have to flag them even further away than the rest of your heroes who need to stay close enough to heal you, which means you must put them as #1, #2 and #3, and then flag them individually. This kind of intensive work for less than good return is not attractive. What's more, if you are balling mobs, taking aggro and holding that aggro, why don't you fill out the rest of your team with RoJ Smiters and ARage Rits etc?
There is little doubt as well that using melee heroes makes your team inflexible. If you trigger an unexpected popup, your melee heroes cannot disengage as fast as the rest of your team can. If a patrol aggros onto you while you are killing a mob, you cannot switch targets as well as a team of full casters can. Especially obvious in a quest like 4H. If you have to switch targets - because a target is low, because a healer has run forward to wand your party, etc - then you cannot do it nearly as well with melee heroes. Overaggro is a problem because there are places where mobs will patrol close to each other. Off the top of my head the easiest examples are in Selvetarm, for the first mixed mob just behind the corner, and further up near all the Chained Souls. Another example would be near Falaharn's mob in Morostav Trail. I know you can overaggro because I've intentionally overaggroed a few times with EBVAS. Overaggro is only to be done when you know what you're doing, however, and melee AI does not know what it's doing. It will overaggro when it should not, and because they are so far ahead of the rest of your heroes you can't disengage easily either.
As for that quote, I was quoting you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier
There is little doubt as well that using melee heroes makes your team inflexible. If you trigger an unexpected popup, your melee heroes cannot disengage as fast as the rest of your team can. If a patrol aggros onto you while you are killing a mob, you cannot switch targets as well as a team of full casters can. Especially obvious in a quest like 4H. If you have to switch targets - because a target is low, because a healer has run forward to wand your party, etc - then you cannot do it nearly as well with melee heroes. Overaggro is a problem because there are places where mobs will patrol close to each other. Off the top of my head the easiest examples are in Selvetarm, for the first mixed mob just behind the corner, and further up near all the Chained Souls. Another example would be near Falaharn's mob in Morostav Trail. I know you can overaggro because I've intentionally overaggroed a few times with EBVAS. Overaggro is only to be done when you know what you're doing, however, and melee AI does not know what it's doing. It will overaggro when it should not, and because they are so far ahead of the rest of your heroes you can't disengage easily either.
As for that quote, I was quoting you:
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First, hero AI is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. I roll with dervs in my party pretty often, and I never have problems with their targeting, skill use, etc.
The problem with melee hero AI runs deeper than targeting.
Lanier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
snip
Oh, I see. Maybe I should have specified more clearly. I'll admit that I don't micromanage much, but nearly every time I pull, I do set a flag for my heroes back behind me so that I can grab the aggro before my heroes run in. Set the flag for the entire party back far enough, and then micro a prot spirit + SoA onto the main character before grabbing the aggro. With this method, Iv never had any problems with my melee heroes running in until I'm ready for them to do so. Do they grab some of the aggro from me? Yea. My previous quote, that it is the player character's job to grab aggro, was in reference to grabbing a mob's attention prior to the fight. After the fight has commenced, I see no problem with splitting the enemies aggro between myself, the melee heroes, and the minions (I always use a mm in my party, no matter what the team).
Btw, I do use arage in my party. I guess I could use RoJ too, but I typically slot in tease on my smiter for extra energy management. Still, a physical MoP/splinter spike with VoS scythes buffed by orders and SoH will do more damage than an RoJ spike.
Overaggro has never, ever been an issue with my melee heroes, and I use them all the time. I don't know what kind of experience you have had with yours (if you have even used yours recently), but flagging and pulling is more than enough to make sure that your minions don't overaggro, and they are far more likely to do so than the melee heroes (this is all under the assumtion, of course, that the melee heroes are on guard and not attack mode).
As for inflexibility, I admitted that this is true, but I also don't think it is a big deal. I would far rather have the large damage that my VoS dervs pump out than have a little more flexibility in the party.
Btw, I do use arage in my party. I guess I could use RoJ too, but I typically slot in tease on my smiter for extra energy management. Still, a physical MoP/splinter spike with VoS scythes buffed by orders and SoH will do more damage than an RoJ spike.
Overaggro has never, ever been an issue with my melee heroes, and I use them all the time. I don't know what kind of experience you have had with yours (if you have even used yours recently), but flagging and pulling is more than enough to make sure that your minions don't overaggro, and they are far more likely to do so than the melee heroes (this is all under the assumtion, of course, that the melee heroes are on guard and not attack mode).
As for inflexibility, I admitted that this is true, but I also don't think it is a big deal. I would far rather have the large damage that my VoS dervs pump out than have a little more flexibility in the party.
Malganis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
Melee heroes tend to spend more time running between targets and the player than they need to. It drops their DPS by a large amount. It'd be nice if their aggro was a bit stickier so they would transition between targets better.
Putting your melee heroes on "attack" mode instead of "guard" mode helps with this issue, but it is still a problem.
kazi_saki
Hey I'm a vet player who's back in the game after 1.5 years. Thanks for reorienting me with the better hero team builds.
I was already getting a tad lost from all the new skill updates hahaha.
Awesome work!
I was already getting a tad lost from all the new skill updates hahaha.
Awesome work!
WowThatsMe
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazi_saki
Hey I'm a vet player who's back in the game after 1.5 years. Thanks for reorienting me with the better hero team builds.
I was already getting a tad lost from all the new skill updates hahaha.
Awesome work! This thread is over a year old. Some skill functionalities may have changed since then. Just thought I would let you know.
I was already getting a tad lost from all the new skill updates hahaha.
Awesome work! This thread is over a year old. Some skill functionalities may have changed since then. Just thought I would let you know.
Darigaaz87
Is this guide still valid? I'm looking for good builds for my heroes.
Marty Silverblade
Yep. I'm not sure it's taken the Ele update into account, but that's not a huge deal. Basically Invoke Lightning bars are less useful and Elemental Attunement bars (generally used with fire) are better.
Zahr Dalsk
Honestly, I've found that for HM PvE, elementalist is still trash. Kind of a shame because I want to play it but feel so weak compared to playing, say, spirit Ritualist, or Mesmer, or Warrior.
What the HM armour/health changes & elementalist changes really did was to make elementalist enemies more dangerous, especially in Factions. And in that regard I suppose it's been a good thing, by creating more challenge.
But by and large if you weren't using elementalists before you probably won't be using them now. On the other hand if you were already using elementalists, then you'll probably find them more effective, but you'll still be running an inferior team to just grabbing a bunch of mesmers and ritualists.
What the HM armour/health changes & elementalist changes really did was to make elementalist enemies more dangerous, especially in Factions. And in that regard I suppose it's been a good thing, by creating more challenge.
But by and large if you weren't using elementalists before you probably won't be using them now. On the other hand if you were already using elementalists, then you'll probably find them more effective, but you'll still be running an inferior team to just grabbing a bunch of mesmers and ritualists.
Marty Silverblade
I generally only run physicals in HM so I can't give much personal experience on the matter but calling them trash seems unfair. With many foes down to 60AL, Rodgort's @18 is going to hurt. According to Jeydra (who, appropriately or otherwise, seems to have a reputation for being the go-to person for this stuff) Eles outdamaged Mesmers before the update and since then the gap will have widened. Whether that makes up for whatever alternative you have in mind depends on a number of factors, notably what else you're running. I mean, Jeydra's general HM team (as an Ele himself) included a pair of Rits and Mesmers alongside a pair of Eles. Spirits don't stack and eventually crowd control is going to take a back seat to actually killing things. Whatever works for you. Also, their primary purpose only requires two attributes instead of three so they're better able to slot miscellaneous skills. At the end of the day it's going to depend on the team build as a whole. I do agree though that if you weren't using them before you won't find much to get excited about now.
Mouse at Large
I run an earth ele in HM (earth attune, elemental lord, obs flame, stone daggers, unsteady ground, eruption, evas and either ether nightmare, stoning or a summons) with a 2 rit, 2 mes, 2 necro and single smite/hybrid monk. The builds are out there if you care to look. Basically it pretty much rolls through any HM vanquish.
Your mileage may vary though
Your mileage may vary though
Zahr Dalsk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade
calling them trash seems unfair
It is, I just like hyperbole. When I say trash I mean marginally inferior 
tsug303
I think the Casterway is the best. I tried the Physway as described and it's way less efficient, especially in HM.