Shelter and run at least two healers, both stacked with party heals. There is no way 1 PWK can keep up with judgement. Life tends to get blown up by judgement so that will proc the heal when needed. Everything else that is hard in UW tends to be AoE party damage anyway (skeletons, dryders) so that will probably help your failure rate too.
Pain Inverter on judgement will also make the dhuum fight go dramatically faster, but you will need to spiritize some heroes to take advantage of it.
[HM] The Underworld & Dhuum discussion
FoxBat
Chthon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
None of your heroes become spirits? You really need Reversal of Death or Asuran Scan. One copy would do... Pick a hero, any hero. Asuran Scan would work vs the skeletons, so if you can fit it on your bar- do it.
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All in all, I'm tempted to say: I make an exception to the "real pros don't need cons" rule for Dhuum. He was designed with an utterly ridiculous mechanic that doesn't exist anywhere else in the game and does not have any real counters in the normal skillset. If someone wants to use DP-removers to counteract Dhuum's touch, otherwise use no cons, and call it a "no cons" accomplishment, I'm fine with that.
North Devon Dog
I agree with the above. Whats a honeycomb between friends?
I have been trying to hero all the Elite missions in NM without cons and have had no problem except with Dhuum, who completely nailed me (camped and healed the reaper in FH if your interested, still failed loads even in NM) Whats clear, the healing and therefore the builds you can use in NM would be useless in HM but the opposite is not true so there could well be a definitive build for doing this. Respect to you guys doing this in HM (particularly the four horsemen tactics).
I would say that if you have done all 10 missions without cons before, then using cons to get to Dhuum makes sense, that's what I will do, it will significantly reduce the time to get to him. As long as you defeat the swingy fool without cons then fair enough.
I really hope you guys succeed and post a nice post of the way you did it so us minnons can follow your lead :-)
Until you do I'll keep trying
I have been trying to hero all the Elite missions in NM without cons and have had no problem except with Dhuum, who completely nailed me (camped and healed the reaper in FH if your interested, still failed loads even in NM) Whats clear, the healing and therefore the builds you can use in NM would be useless in HM but the opposite is not true so there could well be a definitive build for doing this. Respect to you guys doing this in HM (particularly the four horsemen tactics).
I would say that if you have done all 10 missions without cons before, then using cons to get to Dhuum makes sense, that's what I will do, it will significantly reduce the time to get to him. As long as you defeat the swingy fool without cons then fair enough.
I really hope you guys succeed and post a nice post of the way you did it so us minnons can follow your lead :-)
Until you do I'll keep trying
EFGJack
I'm doing UW HM purely for the challenge it offers and so I can rub my e-schlong on my guildies' faces (and by guildies I mean the bunch who haven't logged on in 2-4 years) and say how I beat UW without drugs, etc etc.
...
......Right. I personally will not touch any sort of consumables until I've done all 10 quests & killed Dhuum in the same run - without using those. And I'm pretty sure I can accomplish this soonER than I had expected, I've tweaked the setup I posted in this thread to be more Dhuum-friendly. It doesn't involve Asuran Scan, though. What I'm going to do is I'll sacrifice one of the mesmers at the start for Reversal of Death. After that it shouldn't be too hard - ST rit with Earthbind will prevent most of D's damage.
Which leads to my final question: What happens if Dhuum gets to 20% before rest bar is full? Do I still have to wait for the bar to get filled by reapers?
...
......Right. I personally will not touch any sort of consumables until I've done all 10 quests & killed Dhuum in the same run - without using those. And I'm pretty sure I can accomplish this soonER than I had expected, I've tweaked the setup I posted in this thread to be more Dhuum-friendly. It doesn't involve Asuran Scan, though. What I'm going to do is I'll sacrifice one of the mesmers at the start for Reversal of Death. After that it shouldn't be too hard - ST rit with Earthbind will prevent most of D's damage.
Which leads to my final question: What happens if Dhuum gets to 20% before rest bar is full? Do I still have to wait for the bar to get filled by reapers?
Xenomortis
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EFGJack
Which leads to my final question: What happens if Dhuum gets to 20% before rest bar is full? Do I still have to wait for the bar to get filled by reapers?
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There are reports of people disconnecting if you drop Dhuum's health to zero before filling the rest meter, but I've never experienced that.
Chthon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
Yes, the rest bar must fill. Your sacrificed hero can help with Dhuum's Rest too.
There are reports of people disconnecting if you drop Dhuum's health to zero before filling the rest meter, but I've never experienced that. |
D H U U M
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chthon
It was fixed within the first week after Dhuum was added. At that time, there was also a related bug where he'd go underground and sometimes not return if he was at 0hp. I had that once.
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It is certainly not a fun bug to encounter as you just wasted all that time to get screwed over at the end.
EFGJack
Well, shit. I got to Dhuum while running Backbreaker & Earthbind and I died in less than 15 seconds, Judgment destroyed Shelter & displacement and Dhuum killed me swiftly afterwards. I did get surprisingly far even while running around in Ghost form for like 40 something minutes, the encounters' certainly not made while keeping heroes in mind. Ohwellz, at least I learned Dhuums' summons do indeed count as "Summoned" monsters, Spiritual Brain and Holy Spear seemed to kill the adds rather quickly.
Next time I'll make sure to survive through the first Judgment so I can keep D H double U under control.
And yes, there are mercs but you can run the same setup without 'em.
Next time I'll make sure to survive through the first Judgment so I can keep D H double U under control.
And yes, there are mercs but you can run the same setup without 'em.
FoxBat
I was screwed over by the empty life bar thing as well. It doesn't bug every time but it still happens sometimes. There's no advantage in knocking him below 25% anyway so just avoid it.
D H U U M
Ah that really sucks EFGJack about the last run to get a 15sec wipe. As I have been playing around in UW NM though I have noticed great mes work can completely shutdown Dhuum. If there is anyway for you to toss on any more fast interrupt skills on their bar it can really help reduce the rate you have to deal with Judgment, especially if you are able to at least neutralize his first one. From there you could get the spirits up and start to KD him.
It is a little tough to tell the exact placement of your heros on the picture. For me though I have put my mes in 1 and 2 slot to make them mobile from the group. I place them just in front of the center pedestal where they are in reach of Dhuum's start location. Then once you move the last into the room and he becomes hostile, the mes quickly pounce on Dhuums casting.
I don't know how important VOR and Backfire is on your mes for the UW run, if doable though I would look to replace those for interrupting. Ultimately those two are pretty worthless at Dhuum.
It is a little tough to tell the exact placement of your heros on the picture. For me though I have put my mes in 1 and 2 slot to make them mobile from the group. I place them just in front of the center pedestal where they are in reach of Dhuum's start location. Then once you move the last into the room and he becomes hostile, the mes quickly pounce on Dhuums casting.
I don't know how important VOR and Backfire is on your mes for the UW run, if doable though I would look to replace those for interrupting. Ultimately those two are pretty worthless at Dhuum.
EFGJack
I have not been running vor/bf since the very first post. Qnd it wasn't a 15s wipe but just my own death. :-P
Aaaand heroes don't keep dhuums spells under control as he instantly recasts the skill if it gets rupted. I dont know if he does this on NM but he certainly does it on HM.
Aaaand heroes don't keep dhuums spells under control as he instantly recasts the skill if it gets rupted. I dont know if he does this on NM but he certainly does it on HM.
Koning
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EFGJack
Aaaand heroes don't keep dhuums spells under control as he instantly recasts the skill if it gets rupted. I dont know if he does this on NM but he certainly does it on HM.
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This thread looks interesting btw
Makes me want to try it too 
Killed u man
Euhm, EFGJack, I myself, too, am looking for ways to beat UW HM with Heroes without the use of consets.
I find your Muddy Terrain idea brilliant, and I've decided to try it myself aswell.
As for Dhuum:
He becomes a walk in the park with SY.
Essentially, what you'll want to be doing is build your SY for 45 seconds, then wait for his judgement and the second it hits the floor, hit SY. (Which should last about 5 seconds aswell) In HM, it gets reduced to about +- 20 damage per pulse. (Less than a flurry of splinters)
Other than that, throw up a Shelter the second JoD ends, and you should be fine. I managed to stay alive in HM (WITH consets at 4H, but not as dhuum, before I knew about this muddy terrain trick) for 20 minutes against Dhuum this way no problem whatsoever. I died because I forgot to use SY :P
Do make sure you have some clovers for the unavoidable Dhuum DP skill.
I find your Muddy Terrain idea brilliant, and I've decided to try it myself aswell.
As for Dhuum:
He becomes a walk in the park with SY.
Essentially, what you'll want to be doing is build your SY for 45 seconds, then wait for his judgement and the second it hits the floor, hit SY. (Which should last about 5 seconds aswell) In HM, it gets reduced to about +- 20 damage per pulse. (Less than a flurry of splinters)
Other than that, throw up a Shelter the second JoD ends, and you should be fine. I managed to stay alive in HM (WITH consets at 4H, but not as dhuum, before I knew about this muddy terrain trick) for 20 minutes against Dhuum this way no problem whatsoever. I died because I forgot to use SY :P
Do make sure you have some clovers for the unavoidable Dhuum DP skill.
EFGJack
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
Euhm, EFGJack, I myself, too, am looking for ways to beat UW HM with Heroes without the use of consets.
I find your Muddy Terrain idea brilliant, and I've decided to try it myself aswell. As for Dhuum: He becomes a walk in the park with SY. Essentially, what you'll want to be doing is build your SY for 45 seconds, then wait for his judgement and the second it hits the floor, hit SY. (Which should last about 5 seconds aswell) In HM, it gets reduced to about +- 20 damage per pulse. (Less than a flurry of splinters) Other than that, throw up a Shelter the second JoD ends, and you should be fine. I managed to stay alive in HM (WITH consets at 4H, but not as dhuum, before I knew about this muddy terrain trick) for 20 minutes against Dhuum this way no problem whatsoever. I died because I forgot to use SY :P Do make sure you have some clovers for the unavoidable Dhuum DP skill. |
And @Koning - It's better to build up against Dhuum while assuming he gets to cast his spells instead of trying to be clever with spells such as PD. ;>
Jeydra
I'm making progress, I just feel like I'm completely reinventing the wheel. Still haven't gotten past 4H with a (at least theoretically) Dhuum viable build, but each time I try I get closer. Reminds me of the time when I first tried: each run tells me a little more about the tactics that I need to apply, and all that's left is simply to use them. If 4H is doable with this setup, the rest shouldn't be too difficult.
I'd love to run more defense just to deal with Dhuum, but the way 4H goes that's simply not possible: you need the offense. When I tried switching out one offensive hero for a mostly defensive one, I lost about 10 seconds of time wiping one wave. That's absolutely critical in 4H, however, and it was the difference between success and failure. Shucks.
I believe UW HM is doable H/H without consumables (including Clovers), it's just a matter of time until someone pulls together a run. For now though I'm carrying Res Scrolls into UW, cut out some of the absurdly long times it takes to clear quests.
If you interrupt Judgment, does it go on 45s cooldown?
I'd love to run more defense just to deal with Dhuum, but the way 4H goes that's simply not possible: you need the offense. When I tried switching out one offensive hero for a mostly defensive one, I lost about 10 seconds of time wiping one wave. That's absolutely critical in 4H, however, and it was the difference between success and failure. Shucks.
I believe UW HM is doable H/H without consumables (including Clovers), it's just a matter of time until someone pulls together a run. For now though I'm carrying Res Scrolls into UW, cut out some of the absurdly long times it takes to clear quests.
If you interrupt Judgment, does it go on 45s cooldown?
EFGJack
If you rupt Dhuum he will simply re-cast it in a matter of seconds. It's pretty funky.
Life Bringing
No, if your rupt judgment it goes on cooldown. It's the primary reason that SC groups never use a dream rider at Dhuum. The interruption slows down the killing dramatically because the damage comes from PI.
Killed u man
Hey, I dind't know you were counting clovers as consumables.
Dealing with Judgement is easy, SY takes care of it. A single hero with prot spirit or a ST should take care of Dhuum's regular output.
So it's only a question of: How can we deal with his DP?
I think someone said you simply can not stop his touch DP skill, so you're only bet is snaring dhuum, trying to get to attack you, and asuran scan your DP off.
There simply is not other way to get rid of DP. But even then, last time I faced Dhuum, even his DP wasn't that big of a deal. (It was a really ez fight untill I decided to fall asleep and not use SY)
I don't know why you have so much troubles with him.
Dealing with Judgement is easy, SY takes care of it. A single hero with prot spirit or a ST should take care of Dhuum's regular output.
So it's only a question of: How can we deal with his DP?
I think someone said you simply can not stop his touch DP skill, so you're only bet is snaring dhuum, trying to get to attack you, and asuran scan your DP off.
There simply is not other way to get rid of DP. But even then, last time I faced Dhuum, even his DP wasn't that big of a deal. (It was a really ez fight untill I decided to fall asleep and not use SY)
I don't know why you have so much troubles with him.
Xenomortis
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
There simply is not other way to get rid of DP. But even then, last time I faced Dhuum, even his DP wasn't that big of a deal. (It was a really ez fight untill I decided to fall asleep and not use SY)
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It's probably advisable to let a hero die just for that skill.
Save Yourselves isn't really an option for casters and may be hard to fit into a player bar depending on setup.
EFGJack
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
I don't know why you have so much troubles with him. |
Quote:
| No, if your rupt judgment it goes on cooldown. It's the primary reason that SC groups never use a dream rider at Dhuum. The interruption slows down the killing dramatically because the damage comes from PI. |
Carboplatin
I gave the muddy terrain tactic a try like the video and just couldn't pull it off, they killed the reaper as I was running back. Maybe with a few more tries.
I can't seem to kill as fast as you did in the video, even with the same heros.
I can't seem to kill as fast as you did in the video, even with the same heros.
Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EFGJack
I have not been using SY because a certain elementalist is jealous he can't take advantage of it.
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Honestly, use SY, or you'll have to say you can't use Asuran Scan because a certain Elementalist is jealous he can't take advantage of it either. Besides, right now I'm using ER, so no complaints there.
Plutoman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
I'm having trouble motivating myself to spend another 2+ hours in UW just to kill Dhuum, but EFGJack's trying hard so perhaps I should try again ...
I have been considering E/Mo Protective Bond, which would abuse the one and only standout build available to Elementalists, but I'm debating whether I should try that or go for the standard E/A Air that'd be able to chain some KDs on Dhuum. With E/Mo Protective Bond, keeping the entire team alive is going to be difficult, considering one successful Judgement will destroy my energy in an instant. I could bond less people, but that would mean they have a good chance of dying quickly. And there's the matter of how to get DP off whoever Dhuum Touches. I could let someone die I guess ... Earthbind + mass KDs seems like the best answer to Dhuum. With a dedicated build it should be possible for a Warrior to permanently KD someone. Much more difficult for a caster like me. Will Ward Against Ham help against Dhuum? It would reduce damage from Judgement ... A video of someone killing Dhuum with 7H (or something similar), regardless of NM or HM, would be very helpful. It doesn't have to be successful - a failed attempt is just as good. Anyone have one? Which of the following is more likely to trigger against Dhuum: Bane Signet, or "Coward!"? |
I've been through the UW only once, so my experience is limited, but I'm going to hazard a guess that that is one of the few (not only, but few - SY is a definite other option, ST rit can't hold on it's own though, and you need party wide coverage that a hero e/mo can't provide) ways to beat him. Energy should be manageable, but difficult - the main thing is to keep him off you. The E/mo will stand in the door and have everyone go slightly ahead of him, but the group will stay close too - if I remember correctly.
In NM, it should be much easier. Dhuum's like a monster elementalist with judgement - in NM, it's fine, no problem at all. In HM, it hits like a truck. Not to mention an auto-attack of 200+ from a scythe that hits multiple targets, and adding dp onto targets -.-
Let me know how it goes!
aga
Not using SY is just pure arrogance and ignorance, not to mention stupidity. I understand not using cons, but refusing to use a pretty standard skill is pathetic. It's exactly the same as refusing to use a certain build, the arrogance in pretty skill-less GW PvE is truely outstanding.
People often say that PvP'ers have the biggest ego's, but man is that wrong, sure there are some pvp'ers with big ego's, but none that even come close to the ones I've seen around GW PvE. The worst thing is PvE'ers don't realise how arrogant and egotistical they actually are.
People often say that PvP'ers have the biggest ego's, but man is that wrong, sure there are some pvp'ers with big ego's, but none that even come close to the ones I've seen around GW PvE. The worst thing is PvE'ers don't realise how arrogant and egotistical they actually are.
byteme!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aga
Not using SY is just pure arrogance and ignorance, not to mention stupidity. I understand not using cons, but refusing to use a pretty standard skill is pathetic. It's exactly the same as refusing to use a certain build, the arrogance in pretty skill-less GW PvE is truely outstanding.
People often say that PvP'ers have the biggest ego's, but man is that wrong, sure there are some pvp'ers with big ego's, but none that even come close to the ones I've seen around GW PvE. The worst thing is PvE'ers don't realise how arrogant and egotistical they actually are. |
That sound about right or did I miss something?
Jeydra
OK this is ridiculous. Heroes don't use Reversal of Death just to remove DP, they use it like Reversal of Fortune. I had like 3 heroes in spirit form and I still got Touched out. Absolutely ridiculous. I really don't think I'm going to micro every Reversal of Death cast, that's just bull****.
I think I'm done with UW until ANet updates hero AI to use Reversal of Death. At this point I can probably kill him with a stack of Clovers, but that won't be without consumables.
I think I'm done with UW until ANet updates hero AI to use Reversal of Death. At this point I can probably kill him with a stack of Clovers, but that won't be without consumables.
FoxBat
People keep saying that "can't touch this" doesn't actually stop dhuum. But I've never had issues with DP when using it in normal mode at least. I don't chow consumables to fight his effect, nor micro heroes to remove DP, it just doesn't really hit anyone. I spent a summer away and the guildies I run UW on and off with said they failed on dhuum every time without me, despite running basically the same builds, except for no "can't touch this." Maybe it's masses of spirits combined with permasnare from shared burden that were doing all the work, but I'm not so certain.
Reformed
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
People keep saying that "can't touch this" doesn't actually stop dhuum.
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Plutoman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
People keep saying that "can't touch this" doesn't actually stop dhuum. But I've never had issues with DP when using it in normal mode at least. I don't chow consumables to fight his effect, nor micro heroes to remove DP, it just doesn't really hit anyone. I spent a summer away and the guildies I run UW on and off with said they failed on dhuum every time without me, despite running basically the same builds, except for no "can't touch this." Maybe it's masses of spirits combined with permasnare from shared burden that were doing all the work, but I'm not so certain.
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EFGJack
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carboplatin
I gave the muddy terrain tactic a try like the video and just couldn't pull it off, they killed the reaper as I was running back. Maybe with a few more tries.
I can't seem to kill as fast as you did in the video, even with the same heros. |
Feel free to ask for tips and pointers though.
FoxBat
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Plutoman
Key words; normal mode.
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Plutoman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
It's nearly unheard of for monster abilities to be qualitatively different in different modes. If it's confirmed to work like that, wiki ought to be updated.
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It's a big difference, though it may not seem that way at first glance. The skeletons are also harder to kill, move, and attack faster, making them more of an issue than before.
Chthon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EFGJack
I now have a build capable of clearing all 10 quests with little to no chance of failure but I won't publish it until I'm confident it can put Lilla D back in his place.
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---
Random note on ST: Remember that Judgment is spirit range and Shelter is (obviously) spirit range. Insane micro people might be able to keep Shelter out of Judgment range but inside spirit range of the party, except maybe one person adjacent to Dhuum.
Carboplatin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EFGJack
Are you microing any skills on your heroes? Using Ancestor's Rage & splinter weapon on every cd is highly recommended as the heroes are often lazy with those two spells, then there's Shatter Hex, etc that you can use to put out as much dmg as possible. And even with maximum micro skillz I can't repeat 4HM every single time with the setup posted, however I now have a build capable of clearing all 10 quests with little to no chance of failure but I won't publish it until I'm confident it can put Lilla D back in his place.
Feel free to ask for tips and pointers though. |
Koning
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carboplatin
I can't seem to kill as fast as you did in the video, even with the same heros.
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm also not succeeding every time yet
Killed u man
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chthon
I'm looking forward to seeing that.
--- Random note on ST: Remember that Judgment is spirit range and Shelter is (obviously) spirit range. Insane micro people might be able to keep Shelter out of Judgment range but inside spirit range of the party, except maybe one person adjacent to Dhuum. |
Edit, also how did you deal with the pits quest? It's seems that when I take out my ST rite for a SoGM one (defence for offence), the spirits that spawn in the Pits just die instant to the fire AoE without there being anything I can do. I even micro prot spirit and spirit bond on them like a motherf*cker, but they all decided to ball up AoE.
Is there any trick (read AI glitch) I can pull off to prevent these spirits from engaging?
Chthon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
Since your intire team takes damage from Judgement of Dhuum, shelter won't do much good. It'll die after 1 pulse.
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If you micro Armor of Unfeeling as well, it lasts 22 hits, or about 3 pulses.
I'm much more worried about the micro being hopelessly impractical than about Shelter not stopping enough damage.
EFGJack
@KUM - Kill the spawns from north before they engage the spirits.
And you're not factoring the reapers in Chthon, I'd ass-u-me at least 2 of them would be on range at all times. But yer, with proper micro that is indeed possible IN THEORY but in practice Dhuum keeps teleporting about and after he finishes doing it he's not likely to stand still and keep the range to ST rit the same it was prior to teleporting.
And you're not factoring the reapers in Chthon, I'd ass-u-me at least 2 of them would be on range at all times. But yer, with proper micro that is indeed possible IN THEORY but in practice Dhuum keeps teleporting about and after he finishes doing it he's not likely to stand still and keep the range to ST rit the same it was prior to teleporting.
Killed u man
Well, since EFJ is a warrior, he's got access to SY. (You do even bring it)
So I gues the issue still is, how can you prevent Dhuum from DP'ing you out without resorting to clovers, even tough they're cheap as shit, and can't even be concidered a con.
I do find that a minion master (I bring one, yes, I know) does miracles, as for some reason, Dhuum likes to aggro to bone minions. Better even, when you flag your heroes to the entrance gate of the hall (on a pile), Dhuum will barely every reach them, if at all.
He always teleports back to the center of the hall, and then runs/aggros to your team. If you block him, he seems to teleport, but from my personal experience, when minions block him (bone minions), he just sits there and eventually attacks the minnions.
So I gues the issue still is, how can you prevent Dhuum from DP'ing you out without resorting to clovers, even tough they're cheap as shit, and can't even be concidered a con.
I do find that a minion master (I bring one, yes, I know) does miracles, as for some reason, Dhuum likes to aggro to bone minions. Better even, when you flag your heroes to the entrance gate of the hall (on a pile), Dhuum will barely every reach them, if at all.
He always teleports back to the center of the hall, and then runs/aggros to your team. If you block him, he seems to teleport, but from my personal experience, when minions block him (bone minions), he just sits there and eventually attacks the minnions.
Chthon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EFGJack
@KUM - Kill the spawns from north before they engage the spirits.
And you're not factoring the reapers in Chthon, I'd ass-u-me at least 2 of them would be on range at all times. But yer, with proper micro that is indeed possible IN THEORY but in practice Dhuum keeps teleporting about and after he finishes doing it he's not likely to stand still and keep the range to ST rit the same it was prior to teleporting. |