Some people have posted variants of "I did all missions / VQs with this build and had no trouble", or "I don't care about how fast I do things, I care about no micro + finishing whatever I set out to do" in support of their builds.
Here is why this argument is completely meaningless.
I ran all the Animate spells I could find on the Necro, except I ran out of Animate spells and had to run Masochism and Malign Intervention for more / higher level minions ...
I ran all the Channeling spirits I could find, then ran out of them and just used three resses ...
I ran all the offensive Communing spirits I could find with some energy management and more resses (of course) ...
I ran 20 Fire Flare spam with Mark of Rodgort + Conjure Flame on myself and Vekk ...
I used the first eight alphabetical non-elite Healing Prayers spells for Tahlkora and the first eight Protection Prayers spells for Dunkoro ...
I used my never-before-used Jora, who still has default skills ...
... and I vanquished Mount Qinkai without problems! I did no micro, I ran up to mobs to cast Double Dragon, I found out that wanding with Conjure Flame does almost as much damage as Flare spam does, and I had no problems. Kill speed + run speed was atrociously slow compared to the builds I'm used to running, but I had no problems.
In short: being able to do vanquishes and missions is no indication of a build's strength. All good builds should be able to do VQs and missions with no problems, but the converse is not true.
Why vanquishing and missions are meaningless for comparison
Jeydra
Life Bringing
This should be a sticky
Outerworld
This should clearly be the new hero meta 
Olle
Okey?
12chars
12chars
Bristlebane
Good work,
your next challenge is to bring as little skills as possibly on your bars, maybe just 1-2 skills each
your next challenge is to bring as little skills as possibly on your bars, maybe just 1-2 skills each
Laylat
Lol, my eyes hurt initially when I saw your builds without reading what you intended to do. While what you say is true for some areas, other areas would pose problems with a similar build. It just so happens that most areas can be ran with almost any build. It also so happens that people want to say their particular build is the most efficient.
AndrewSX
Use it for all 100ish areas of gw.
I mean, all we know that VQing isn't THE way to rate a build, cause all non-mediocre build scaled for HM will do. Can't really see the point.
I mean, all we know that VQing isn't THE way to rate a build, cause all non-mediocre build scaled for HM will do. Can't really see the point.
Life Bringing
That's the whole point of the thread. A rather large number of people think their build is amazing because it can handle a few HM vanquishes/missions.
Gill Halendt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
In short: being able to do vanquishes and missions is no indication of a build's strength. All good builds should be able to do VQs and missions with no problems, but the converse is not true.
Mmmhkay.
To back this up, did you REALLY need to try it yourself, take screenshots and then report back?
To back this up, did you REALLY need to try it yourself, take screenshots and then report back?
Kojima
Sticky this, someone!
This is so true!
This is so true!
Gabs88
This build sucks... Lacks Echo Mending
aga
Using a shit team build on MQ, which is one of the easiest vanquishes in the game, doesn't prove anything. You could run much worse builds through MQ, with 2-3 skills per hero if you really wanted to. You were still using 3 pretty core heroes, 2x spirit spammers and a MM, you could probably do the vanquish with just those 3 heroes if you had heal area somewhere.
Markus Clouser
I did all missions, VQs, dungeons and elite areas with my build while playing with various people and sometimes heroes and had no trouble.
There, I fixed that.
+100 internet points for you Sir for this thread!
There, I fixed that.
+100 internet points for you Sir for this thread!
wilebill
Mount Qinkai is an easy Vanquish intended to provide quick Luxon faction. Though in general your idea is true.
If there are mobs with heavy hexes, Mesmer with Hex Eater Vortex and Shatter Hex can help a lot. Areas heavy with conditions, Dervish running Avatar of Melandru helps a lot. But often you can power your way through anyway I will admit.
Example Mamnoon Lagoon. Four characters VQ'd it. All started with identical heroes and identical general PvE builds for heroes.
1. Ranger: No problems, just another day. Pet Build with Haste and Otyugh's Cry.
2. Warrior: Chop nasty Wind Riders up with Axe auto attacks. No problems.
3. Paragon: Rough ride. Semi Imbagon build not the best idea. Not enough DPS. But finished.
4. Assassin: Caster mode. Got crushed like right away. Hopeless.
Switched to Daggers, threw on Shadow Form; overkill was Hex Eater Vortex on Mesmer with Shatter Hex. Easy run. So, it depends on a lot of things.
Jeydra, have you tried this in Majesty's Rest? Curious.
If there are mobs with heavy hexes, Mesmer with Hex Eater Vortex and Shatter Hex can help a lot. Areas heavy with conditions, Dervish running Avatar of Melandru helps a lot. But often you can power your way through anyway I will admit.
Example Mamnoon Lagoon. Four characters VQ'd it. All started with identical heroes and identical general PvE builds for heroes.
1. Ranger: No problems, just another day. Pet Build with Haste and Otyugh's Cry.
2. Warrior: Chop nasty Wind Riders up with Axe auto attacks. No problems.
3. Paragon: Rough ride. Semi Imbagon build not the best idea. Not enough DPS. But finished.
4. Assassin: Caster mode. Got crushed like right away. Hopeless.
Switched to Daggers, threw on Shadow Form; overkill was Hex Eater Vortex on Mesmer with Shatter Hex. Easy run. So, it depends on a lot of things.
Jeydra, have you tried this in Majesty's Rest? Curious.
jensyea
GOGOGO Jokos domain / majesty's rest and then qq
Spiritz
Mount qinkai is one bad example of a place to vq - and its mainly down to the case of any build can be used in the team and still do it - its one of the easiest places going.
Ive vq mq with builds that not even a noob would run - eg ursin ( ursan , aos and any dagger fillers ) in a team with 2 monks and the last 5 in team used what they wanted - no team synergy or build synergy and we still vq in 20 mins with very little probs.
It can even be done same time using hench , heros , mercs with no set team builds.
Hell i dont even micro my heros - i tend to let them get on with things themselves.
Remember gw and its campaigns have been around for a few years now so players have that much more exp of zones , little exploits like using terrain and which bosses can be pulled away from groups and this info gets passed along.
Some Dungeons can be done with as little as 3 players , some places can be vq with just 1 or 2 players which when gw was released and hm + vq was thought of - they thought of full party rather than us players evolving gameplay and being ahead of the challenge and using smaller parties.
I think in gw history probably the best example of us beating anet would be the old 55 monk who has been around for ages in form or another - and even a few years ago the nerf to mystic regen only made the 55 mo/d revert bk to old school 55.
Ive vq mq with builds that not even a noob would run - eg ursin ( ursan , aos and any dagger fillers ) in a team with 2 monks and the last 5 in team used what they wanted - no team synergy or build synergy and we still vq in 20 mins with very little probs.
It can even be done same time using hench , heros , mercs with no set team builds.
Hell i dont even micro my heros - i tend to let them get on with things themselves.
Remember gw and its campaigns have been around for a few years now so players have that much more exp of zones , little exploits like using terrain and which bosses can be pulled away from groups and this info gets passed along.
Some Dungeons can be done with as little as 3 players , some places can be vq with just 1 or 2 players which when gw was released and hm + vq was thought of - they thought of full party rather than us players evolving gameplay and being ahead of the challenge and using smaller parties.
I think in gw history probably the best example of us beating anet would be the old 55 monk who has been around for ages in form or another - and even a few years ago the nerf to mystic regen only made the 55 mo/d revert bk to old school 55.
Reformed
I had a different interpretation of this. Heroes are going to run a bad build better than the average GW player would. Some of those builds are easily PuG worthy.
Xenomortis
A testament to the power of skills like Signet of Spirits?
Or is Flare OP?
Or is Flare OP?
Yinsang
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabs88
This build sucks... Lacks Echo Mending
You did not read his post, did you?
REDdelver
I love this kind of stuff. I love the fact that people will run "what most think is crap" and get away with it.
Like the other day when I went to Depths of Destruction with a human team. We already had an SoS, and 3 melee/ranged characters.....Plus during the quest you get the 3 golems that we can set to melee.
I got ripped into about wanting to run Echo, Gdw, splinter...then a bunch of fill in skills. No one could see the point of echo. Echo gdw...fill in with spinter, but i digress
The only thing I see about your build is... You still have a MM and 2 spirit spammers. Yes, you can more or less build anything around this combination, because it takes so much pressure off your party.
In my mind, if you want to further validate your thoughts.....take out at least 2 of the 3 or all of them and then let us know how things go.
Like the other day when I went to Depths of Destruction with a human team. We already had an SoS, and 3 melee/ranged characters.....Plus during the quest you get the 3 golems that we can set to melee.
I got ripped into about wanting to run Echo, Gdw, splinter...then a bunch of fill in skills. No one could see the point of echo. Echo gdw...fill in with spinter, but i digress
The only thing I see about your build is... You still have a MM and 2 spirit spammers. Yes, you can more or less build anything around this combination, because it takes so much pressure off your party.
In my mind, if you want to further validate your thoughts.....take out at least 2 of the 3 or all of them and then let us know how things go.
Wyndy
I think the moral of the story is that GW is a lot more forgiving than some people think. Some spots are tricky and need some strategy, but for the most part, loosey goosey can get away with a lot.
Daesu
The issue is VQ-ing is easy. Most 7H builds should be able to VQ successfully. But VQ within a certain time, both with and without micro, is what is interesting.
jackinthe
so basically, minions and spirits are good?
wow. i did not know this!
wow. i did not know this!
majoho
I agree on the missions, on VQ's I agree to some degree but a few areas can't be done with just any random build (a couple if the nightfall ones).
Dungeons/Elite Areas are the only places where your build will be really challenged.
Dungeons/Elite Areas are the only places where your build will be really challenged.
Plutoman
And this is why claiming discordway is best because it does VQ's and etc easy.. is a fallacy!
Honestly, I think discordway is widely considered best because people can use two skills, and then see direct results from a target dying from discord. If someone plays another way, it's harder to see the direct benefits of heroes killing mobs and doing other work. So people think that where they can see the results (even on only one enemy) is best - well, at least, the general population goes with that.
Otherwise speaking, VQ's and missions are rather easy with few exceptions.
Honestly, I think discordway is widely considered best because people can use two skills, and then see direct results from a target dying from discord. If someone plays another way, it's harder to see the direct benefits of heroes killing mobs and doing other work. So people think that where they can see the results (even on only one enemy) is best - well, at least, the general population goes with that.
Otherwise speaking, VQ's and missions are rather easy with few exceptions.
Wenspire
That's why I've always said that you could run almost any kind of healing class (rit, necro, etc) successfully in a group a long a there's an MM on board. Meaning it doesn't prove the effectiveness of that healing build because of all the damage mitigation.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethal Primate
Ah look here, the ranting on discordway! I don't understand why ppl always go ranting on discordway even if it has little to do with the topic.
It has everything to do with the topic.
Discordway (and now BDSM) is frequently advertised as "the best build ever" on the basis that "it can complete anything." Aside from the fact that this claim is false (there are things it cannot complete), Jeydra's point is that merely being able to complete content does not equate with being "the best build ever," or even being a good build. As Jeydra demonstrates, an awful build can often complete content. "Ability to complete content" is a very low bar that separates the amazingly awful from the great, good, mediocre, bad, and awful. (Boy, do I have a feeling that I'm about to get flamed by a lot of people who struggle to complete content...) There's a lot of disagreement about what criteria further divide those builds that can complete content into great/good/mediocre/bad/awful. There seems to be a general agreement that speed and robustness both matter, but very different opinions on how much weight should go to each. There's also a pro-BDSM contingent who push for foolproof-ness as a criterion of a good build, which is met by a lot of criticism from non-fools.
Discordway (and now BDSM) is frequently advertised as "the best build ever" on the basis that "it can complete anything." Aside from the fact that this claim is false (there are things it cannot complete), Jeydra's point is that merely being able to complete content does not equate with being "the best build ever," or even being a good build. As Jeydra demonstrates, an awful build can often complete content. "Ability to complete content" is a very low bar that separates the amazingly awful from the great, good, mediocre, bad, and awful. (Boy, do I have a feeling that I'm about to get flamed by a lot of people who struggle to complete content...) There's a lot of disagreement about what criteria further divide those builds that can complete content into great/good/mediocre/bad/awful. There seems to be a general agreement that speed and robustness both matter, but very different opinions on how much weight should go to each. There's also a pro-BDSM contingent who push for foolproof-ness as a criterion of a good build, which is met by a lot of criticism from non-fools.
Introverted Dimensions
It varies for certain zones.
Xiaquin
Minions, spirits and a non-threatening, small zone with inefficient if effective builds. We all know necros and rits are OP in PvE, please try again (for real) so this won't look pointless.
AlsPals
Spirit Spammers and an MM on one of the easiest vanquishes...The point is understood, but the method behind it screams "This will win post of the year award cause im so smert."
FoxBat
Factoring in good vs bad bars, this isn't all that different from a solid hero/hench team.
mage767
Mount Quinkie is one of the easiest vqes in factions. Plus, you took 2 monk healers. Regardless of how poorly your other heroes do damage, enemies will die, and the monks will heal them just fine. The 2 rits will do majority of the damage.
The OP's post is semi-pointless. Yes, people will argue their builds are good. Don't listen to them unless they can backup with proof in the most difficult dungeons HM.
The OP's post is semi-pointless. Yes, people will argue their builds are good. Don't listen to them unless they can backup with proof in the most difficult dungeons HM.
aga
Well, I was getting bored of RA last night, so went to do a MQ vanq with all RA builds, 1 monk, no MM, no rits, just melee. All the builds are pretty standard RA builds from pvx including the bar I was running. 0 flagging, micro-ing, just left my heroes to fail in their own way. Easily the hardest vanquish I've ever done, took 29mins, most of the time was spent dead.
The builds All work nicely in RA, but I can assure they do not function very well in PvE.
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw110.jpg
The builds All work nicely in RA, but I can assure they do not function very well in PvE
.http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw110.jpg
majoho
^ well you are lacking a bit in healing/protection, as far as I can tell you only have the WoH monk so it would be hard to keep stuff alive.
Whirl E Vic
One healer and two hero warriors with frenzy, what could go wrong
wotah
I get a trophy now?
Dzjudz
How about all empty bars and winning with autoattacks? 
wotah
Might add I went afk for 15 minutes to eat chicken.^ My screenshot of 3 skilling VQ mq