Paragon needs a redesign
Swingline
There needs to be a prominent way of stripping chants either by skills on the opposite team or within the para skills themselves before a paragon buff. Shouts should be left alone, don't want the poor warrior to suffer because of another class. 
AndrewSX
I'm not a huge para expert, but about possible changes i'm on the same line with Swingline (pun not intended :P), and i said it in another thread too:
as long as there isn't any way to seriously counter/punish/strip all chants/echoes/shouts like you can with spells/enchs/attacks, there won't be room for revert/revamp pvp paras (for their support role).
Let's look at facts: what are the actual counter to shouts? 3 nec spells (one inflict degeneration for shouting, another is a well..), and some rupts for chants.
Afaik, the main issue that leaded to para (expecially pvp) nerf was this: lack of natural counters(expecially for the stacking).
Unless are introduced ways to punish (empathy/scourge/mistrust-whatever hex you'd like to apply to shouts), condition able to influence them (Daze is the most probable) and a way to strip them, we won't see changes about those. Is inevitable.
For pve...well, the main problem is that pve became just a (armor-ignoring) AoE dmg spamfest. Paras aren't the only ones suffering for this.
[Is the same issue of rangers....they have 3 skills -2elites- and splinter to tackle it, but isn't a solution at all, no?]
Just my ideas about this balance issue, for the few things i know, so i may be wrong.
P.S: about the "shout" word: was just too lazy to write down the other definition. War shouts ARE balanced. (take out SY! for equation thought).
as long as there isn't any way to seriously counter/punish/strip all chants/echoes/shouts like you can with spells/enchs/attacks, there won't be room for revert/revamp pvp paras (for their support role).
Let's look at facts: what are the actual counter to shouts? 3 nec spells (one inflict degeneration for shouting, another is a well..), and some rupts for chants.
Afaik, the main issue that leaded to para (expecially pvp) nerf was this: lack of natural counters(expecially for the stacking).
Unless are introduced ways to punish (empathy/scourge/mistrust-whatever hex you'd like to apply to shouts), condition able to influence them (Daze is the most probable) and a way to strip them, we won't see changes about those. Is inevitable.
For pve...well, the main problem is that pve became just a (armor-ignoring) AoE dmg spamfest. Paras aren't the only ones suffering for this.
[Is the same issue of rangers....they have 3 skills -2elites- and splinter to tackle it, but isn't a solution at all, no?]
Just my ideas about this balance issue, for the few things i know, so i may be wrong.
P.S: about the "shout" word: was just too lazy to write down the other definition. War shouts ARE balanced. (take out SY! for equation thought).
Khomet Si Netjer
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewSX
as long as there isn't any way to seriously counter/punish/strip all chants/echoes/shouts like you can with spells/enchs/attacks, there won't be room for revert/revamp pvp paras (for their support role).
Let's look at facts: what are the actual counter to shouts? 3 nec spells (one inflict degeneration for shouting, another is a well..), and some rupts for chants.
Afaik, the main issue that leaded to para (expecially pvp) nerf was this: lack of natural counters(expecially for the stacking).
Unless are introduced ways to punish (empathy/scourge/mistrust-whatever hex you'd like to apply to shouts), condition able to influence them (Daze is the most probable) and a way to strip them, we won't see changes about those. Is inevitable.
For pve...well, the main problem is that pve became just a (armor-ignoring) AoE dmg spamfest. Paras aren't the only ones suffering for this.
[Is the same issue of rangers....they have 3 skills -2elites- and splinter to tackle it, but isn't a solution at all, no?]
Just my ideas about this balance issue, for the few things i know, so i may be wrong.
P.S: about the "shout" word: was just too lazy to write down the other definition. War shouts ARE balanced. (take out SY! for equation thought). I have already suggested Daze as a shutdown mechanism for shouts and chants, and plenty of counters for shout spamming already exist, please see Visions of Regret and Spiteful Spirit among others. Soothing, Soothing Images, Empathy, blind, etc. are also very effective, since no adrenaline means no energy and no shouts.
Instead of embarking on an effort to drastically change game mechanics, I would instead ask you which anthems or shouts are even worth stripping, and then ask yourself whether stripping shouts off of a paragon that refreshes them every few seconds is even feasible. What you are suggesting is the same as trying to strip enchantments off of a dervish... technically, it is possible, but only for a few seconds. He can refresh flash enchantments much faster than you can strip them. If you could somehow strip shouts and chants it would be even worse since many shouts and chants affect all within earshot. There is already a class of skills in the game with this kind of short-duration short-recharge party-affecting behavior... they are called Orders. Technically you can strip Orders off of someone but it is futile since the Orders are refreshed a few seconds later. The paragon works the same way. Therefore I would suggest that the concept of stripping shouts and chants is not only futile, but doesn't even make sense, and the developers are unlikely to make changes to a huge number of skills to make it happen. Instead we should look at other ways to moderate the power of shouts and chants so that they can be negated in other ways. For example, having them end after 1..x..y hits like Watch Yourself, or having them end if target is hexed or enchanted or attacks. There are already skills with such end conditions in the game. The dangerous shouts and chants would be those with long duration, strong effect, and no end condition... e.g. a shout version of Protective Spirit. Since the shout can't be stripped it needs have some other negation or end condition to make it balanced. You'll notice that the ritualist weapon spells and spirits usually have such an end condition... Shelter takes damage for each bit of protection it gives, until it dies and Shelter goes away. Xinrae's Weapon, Vengeful Weapon, Weapon of Remedy, Brutal Weapon and Splinter Weapon are good examples of this behavior, they end after a certain number of hits or under some other condition. Resilient Weapon and Vengeful was Khanhei are BAD examples... they can't be stripped and their effects don't end until the duration runs out.
AndrewSX
I see your reasoning, but the point (imo) is that there were issues that forced to nerf those skills to the ground. Till those issues aren't solved, talking of a paragon reverting to prenerf isn't even remotely possible, unless changing radically the way each skill touched works.
And the only issue that i can imagine stands is the shout unstrippability and stackability, expecially in the organized PvP enviroment.
-Yeah, stripping enchs off a derv doesn't make sense. But that is due to the fact that the power of derv's enchs explode only on the end: for example, staggering force hit for a little dmg and turn attacks in earth, but you do not strip it not cause you fear the earth dmg, but because stripping it trigger the AoE cracked armor(and have a 6sec CD, but dervs aren't really so balanced in numbers atm sometimes) or avatar effect.
-Orders have a very narrow utility, focused on physical attacks, and their duration is always under 5 sec. The recharge here is nearly absent because orders are intended to be maintenaible, but only with sacrifice (saccing every 5 secs isn't really healty).
-As you said, most of Rits weapons/items/buffing spirits have in fact some terms of ending that ensure the balancing. Only specializing can exploit those, like a Rit using ST for perma Shelther-and in fact this exploiting is in meta for a reason. Splinter have attack limit, resto weapons trigger on incoming dmg, etc. This is why Rit's unstrippability isn't a huge issue (but remember that they're very powerful anyway).
-Para's shouts instead, were able to protect the whole team (as long as in range) with armor (SYG) buffing, healing or even blocking. All toghether with enough paras around stacking those effects. But still unstrippable or difficult to stop. Ah, and they have 80+ armor while staying in the mid-backline.
The point is that, for what i know, paras were able to pump out a "Aegis-like effect" (shout stacking in order to reduce dmg/buff/etc) while spearing (and if in pve spear aren't good, in pvp they're just fine to dmg stuff). The problem was that there weren't any way to strip/punish that kind "Aegis".
So, or you turn shouts/echoes/chants in earshot-range enchantements, or you punish the stacking (like putting the clause "Ends prematurely w/o end effect if target becomes affected from x other blablabla"), or you give a overhelming ability to stop a para to shout to other profs.
Your suggestions are great and well-thought, don't get me wrong, but i'm not sure that they touch the aspect that needs to be fixed in order to negate the issues seen in the past, and thus giving possibility to revert nerfs.
That said, i'm the first to say that i'm not even remotely a para or pvp expert, but mine are just ideas and criticism (hoping is welcome) based on what i know.
And the only issue that i can imagine stands is the shout unstrippability and stackability, expecially in the organized PvP enviroment.
-Yeah, stripping enchs off a derv doesn't make sense. But that is due to the fact that the power of derv's enchs explode only on the end: for example, staggering force hit for a little dmg and turn attacks in earth, but you do not strip it not cause you fear the earth dmg, but because stripping it trigger the AoE cracked armor(and have a 6sec CD, but dervs aren't really so balanced in numbers atm sometimes) or avatar effect.
-Orders have a very narrow utility, focused on physical attacks, and their duration is always under 5 sec. The recharge here is nearly absent because orders are intended to be maintenaible, but only with sacrifice (saccing every 5 secs isn't really healty).
-As you said, most of Rits weapons/items/buffing spirits have in fact some terms of ending that ensure the balancing. Only specializing can exploit those, like a Rit using ST for perma Shelther-and in fact this exploiting is in meta for a reason. Splinter have attack limit, resto weapons trigger on incoming dmg, etc. This is why Rit's unstrippability isn't a huge issue (but remember that they're very powerful anyway).
-Para's shouts instead, were able to protect the whole team (as long as in range) with armor (SYG) buffing, healing or even blocking. All toghether with enough paras around stacking those effects. But still unstrippable or difficult to stop. Ah, and they have 80+ armor while staying in the mid-backline.
The point is that, for what i know, paras were able to pump out a "Aegis-like effect" (shout stacking in order to reduce dmg/buff/etc) while spearing (and if in pve spear aren't good, in pvp they're just fine to dmg stuff). The problem was that there weren't any way to strip/punish that kind "Aegis".
So, or you turn shouts/echoes/chants in earshot-range enchantements, or you punish the stacking (like putting the clause "Ends prematurely w/o end effect if target becomes affected from x other blablabla"), or you give a overhelming ability to stop a para to shout to other profs.
Your suggestions are great and well-thought, don't get me wrong, but i'm not sure that they touch the aspect that needs to be fixed in order to negate the issues seen in the past, and thus giving possibility to revert nerfs.
That said, i'm the first to say that i'm not even remotely a para or pvp expert, but mine are just ideas and criticism (hoping is welcome) based on what i know.
Khomet Si Netjer
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewSX
And the only issue that i can imagine stands is the shout unstrippability and stackability, expecially in the organized PvP enviroment.
I am not sure what you mean by 'stackability', or if that is even a problem. There is no limit to the amount of enchantments you can have or the amount of spirits that can affect you...
re: stripping shouts and chants, if you think about it you'll realize that it is impossible to do since even the mass enchant stripping skills like Mirror of Disenchantment and Chilblains would be unable to keep up with the shouts from even one paragon, much less several of them. Even a skill that stripped every shout and chant from a target would be nearly useless because they get refreshed so quickly.
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The people who are sick of the design are not needless whiners who see no point to the profession, they're the people who see what amazingly FUN potential the paragon has, and wish it was executed better.
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