Let's buff the Warrior to Dervish levels!

There's a drawback of using stuff wrong. Its called not scoring kills, which is what you'll end up doing if you're hitting the buttons wrong. But that's just how things work with every class. Its just less obvious with Dervishes since their DPS output is slightly higher than warriors. Its certainly more active than pretty much everything else, and its certainly more fun to hear people whining about it, too.

That goes with any build except the penalty is much smaller on a dervish and we assume people fit within the normal realms of the human mind not the extremes that are required to consistently mash their buttons incorrectly.

What you just admitted is that you like being a shitter. This is why we can't have good things.

You are totally right of course. I failed to think like a dervish... when one cannot die from misusing a skill i suppose activating a skill and your foe rudely neglecting to bow at your feet is quite the "drawback"

I have been blind, and you have shown me the light! Its right up your alley.

You should totally sign up:

*shrug*

Warriors have been the best melee class in the game since the game released, and no one else has ever really had much of a chance. If dervs are better than wars (of course, no derv can fill a hammer war's role, but ignoring that for a second), so be it; I want some evidence that they're actually OP-ed beyond "they're better than sword/axe now!" Oh no, some other class is actually not laughably bad, kill it with fire!

You can /faceroll adrenaline skills with even less of a drawback than energy skills, if you're so inclined; that doesn't mean that's a good way to play the class.

Dervishes a broken, only an idiot can argue otherwise.

To compare a few dervish skills to war skills.

Frenzy - take double damage and attack faster. (Requires intelligent usage)
Heart of Fury - Attack faster for free. (Requires spam usage)

Rush - IMS skill, cancels frenzy. (Requires intelligent usage)
Fleeting Stability - IMS, doesn't cancel HoF, Prevents KD. (Requires Spam usage)

Evicerate - Non Spammable deepwound and plus damage.
Wounding Strike - Spammable deepwound and plus damage.

Crippling Sweep - 5 energy 6 recharge cripple.
Hamstring - 15 enegy 15 recharge cripple.

I could continue to list more including the awful design of the avatar skills but its somewhat pointless.

And thats just the skills warriors have small energy pools, using frenzy alone is pretty taxing on the energy pool whereas dervs can spam spam all day long without problems. On top of this warriors are punished heavily for using skills incorrectly... bulls strike, dchop etc, dervishes get rewarded for spamming harder....

I read the reasoning in this post and proceded to ignore all of your other posts...

He has a point, most people consider feeling overpowered and not requiring thinking to be advantages. Fine enough in PvE. I played a bit of the dervish, and it is fun, not having to think, doing massive damage, etc. Fair change from my ele where most of my builds require focus.

The issue is, well, the game suffers when that delves into the aspect of PvP, where someone being overpowered leaves one of them feeling underpowered... and that's not a balanced situation, and the core of any PvP (in any game) is skill of player > class/skills of build. Skill of player includes all of the aspects of builds, knowing who you can face well, but a good player should always beat a bad or mediocre one. The issue found here (though I'm not the best judge because I don't PvP) is that a good warrior may not always be able to beat a mediocre dervish.

They say they wont do serious nerfs to the Dervish because they don't want to undo the months they spent making the Dervish better. But they have no problem completely undoing 6 years of trying to make the game more balanced. Makes sense.

The average Dervish bar is on par with a warrior bar made up of solely warrior elites. Hey, there's an idea: For every 2 ranks in Strength, you may have 1 additional elite skill equipped.

For every kill you make with a dervish you gain one point towards the new Shitter rank. Now proud dervishes can proceed to display their fine skill. With the way things are I'm sure you'll acquire ranks very quickly.

Also, new effect. While playing as a dervish if you proceed to /fame or /zrank anyone your account is perma-banned.

Buff Warriors / Nerf Dervishes after 3 years when GW3 comes out.

For the un-initiated bad player above: Lets assume i'm a terrible warrior which really isn't far off the mark to be honest. It doesn't take much work to be bad at it... Dervishes have to try to fail. Back to your blanket statement...
HAHAHAHA! faceroll warrior adrenal skills yeah thats safe alright. You sir are an idiot. Dervish adrenaline users -- have you seen balth avatar? once again no downsides... plenty of adrenaline infinitely maintainable extra armor plus burning spam... Warrior adrenaline user... (elevator music) FOR GREAT JUSTICE! apparently justice is on a tight schedule she only sticks around for 8 seconds and comes back around every 45...
Dervish spammable cripple, auto attack cripple, automatic condition loss, automatic healing...
Warrior"even less drawbacks" because its wonderful in pvp to faceroll between two adrenaline skills such as oh... Defy and Flail and either magically commit suicide, or find myself at half health moving 33 percent slower. Use decapitate but no big deal right as a lead attack and lose all adrenaline and all energy two pips of energy regen will have me able to do a mending touch / sight beyond sight or endure pain in no time flat... while waiting on justice to pay me a visit or while i'm rolling my face through my "safe" adrenaline skills locking out my res signet for 12 seconds to give myself a 100 hit point heal, or using healing signet and reducing my total armor by 40% effectively taking double damage while trying to heal the damage i have taken. It's okay though, I'll safely use sun and moon slash to hit one target twice for no additional damage and 8 adrenaline, while the dervish safely hits twin moon sweep hitting 3 targets twice, setting them on fire, and healing himself for up to 110 in one skill for 7 adrenaline.

Yeah, its not your fault that I may suck as a warrior... what is your fault is that you sit in ignorance waiting for someone to show you how to think a problem through.

Edison threw you out as a failed experiment... on your bin was written: "not too bright"

Sadly half of them are stances in PVP, so no real benefit unless for every rank in Strength we gain two extra legs to stand on and the ability to magically stand in the same place multiple times at once without cancelling lol.

Twin moon sweep (PvP) will only heal for 48 health if the condition is met, but small issue for the "I can tank insane amounts of damage" dervish.

I laughed when I read your last statement.

ive played war from the start and tried all the other classes and by far my favorite classes are rit and war with war being first for general solo with my ai team play. its a very easy class. target foe and smash the crap out of it. no making sure enchantments are up, making sure avatars are up, prepping or chaining skills for the most part you just run in and smash away. high armor and strength for a damage boost means you can piss off casters and keep people knocked down while the rest of your team does the real damage. simple.

i always thought dervishes should have been buffed more and i like where they are now. i can come up with some awesome builds if i need to use a derv hero now.

saying all that, the one thing i always wished the warrior had was something huge that no other class has similar to the ele and his massive energy pool. every class has some kind of passive energy management except for the warrior. warrior's endurance kind of fills this gap. what i think should be done is first off buff tactics somehow i have never ever seen a useful tactics skill to bring in pve that made any huge difference. but what i would like to see is a different use for strength. i think the armor penetration is nice but there should be more to it. like maybe add 10hp per rank of strength so like the ele has tons of energy the war could have loads of health. to me this isnt huge because at 14 strength that equates to 140 more health which isnt much if you think about it. a crappy war will still die just last 2-3 more seconds. and a good war wont be vastly more powerful he would just be able to withstand a spike but then die right after. i think more health would be cool because it would offer more rune adjustments. with an extra 140 health you can use a superior strength+sword for example and still be at the same health as before but be able to deal a little more damage at the same time. its an easy buff which doesn't really change anything. or you can have more attribute spreading so you can have nice values for spear+axe+strength instead of just strength+axe. which would allow for more diversity in your builds in pve and pvp.

wow i rambled. to be honest even if strength was buffed to offer some kind of base damage reduction in addition to armor penetration even if it was small that would be nice too. like maybe 1 point for every 2 ranks so at 14 you would have 7 base dmg reduction. not much its like a permanent shielding hands at 0 protection prayers pretty much but would allow the war to tank a little better. even passive energy/adrenaline management would be cool and not be too overpowered but offer more to the player. like ranks in strength allowing % faster adrenaline buildup or knockdowns granting energy or something.

Sorry but the discussion is in regards to PvP. If you are talking about PvP then from reading what you've written you must be a terrible warrior. "Target foe and smash the crap out of it", any human with a brain will just kite and relieve pressure. A warrior cannot just train one character it must allocate pressure accordingly because it cannot use skills willy-nilly. Also, they require smart play with penalties like double dmg through Frenzy and learning when to use skills to maximize pressure given.

It is not hard to spam enchantments and keep avatars up nor do you need to chain. The dervish is all about spamming. The answer to dervishes is not to buff warriors so that they are in line with dervishes but the other way round; you realize this is a troll thread, right?

PvE: you can bring anything and you will win because AI takes care of itself.

Example:
Warrior = 1,000 dmg to 1 target
Derv= 333 dmg to 3 targets

While it would be nice if they buffed up the warrior just a tad.... I don't think it's absolutely needed.

Want to kill a derv? Empathy + Blindness. Done, end of story.

-On top of that, if you face a guy IRL with a 7~ foot Scythe and you have a 3~ foot sword... you're screwed unless you know how to handle it.

Try cutting down wheat with a sword.... you get a few sliced. Do it with a scythe, you'll get a ton more. Do you see where I'm going?

It just isnt logical for a sword to hit 3 people at once.

100 Blades + WW attack. Oh wait... D/W's can still do that... -_-

i was kind of referring to both pve and pvp. i do fine in pvp when i use my war. pve heroes do everything for the most part but in pvp its all you. i dont use my war in pvp much because i dont like shoehorning myself into a certain role and casters can be a little more self reliant if needed. and i know its not ahrd to upkeep stuff but i find it irritating soemtimes. i would rather be constantly doing damage then ahve to stop and get somethign back up. stances and skills are great for the war. you cna continue to attack while having some other benefits. also "smack the crap out of it" is a broad statement you dont know what im doing to the foe i could be keeping a monk knocked down or pissing off the monk in some other manner forcing him to heal himself instead of healing his buddies who my team is blasting.

also face it you know you would love extra hp on a war its a buff that just offers more fun without being overpowered in anyway at all.

and by the way aren't all the whining threads on this forum troll threads?...

/claps
You made me smile with everything you said in this thread. Thanks!

Dervishes are faceroll characters. Warriors are not. Even back in the days of Warrior's Endurance (which I fully admit, I LOVED), you only really facerolled those two skills, and you did have to be careful with Frenzy. You couldn't spam your Dash, because you didn't want to get locked in Frenzy. That is the easiest warrior has ever been, and it still requires more brainpower than an AoB derv. Plus, it doesnt have the conditions AND does less base DPS.

Primal Rage was more fun than a barrel of monkeys. Zipping about the map, you still had to be careful with the double damage, and your attack skills required skillful use in order to score kills. Again, less damage than a derv and no conditions.

I am just waiting for someone to theorycraft an Onslaught build, so we can see a maintainable IAS, IMS, + Increased adrenaline gain, that is a FLASH ENCHANTMENT.

Break these damn things so I can stop facerolling and have fun playing warrior again.

for all of the people complaining about my psots and quoting me(LOL) i was only saying random things at the top of my head that prove u can have an IMS and IAS at the same time. thats it....

all-in-all logic behind a sword hitting more than one foe same as the scythe i just cant see happening,m even samurai only got to like 2 foes, the blade curves on a scythe because it harvests wheat in bulks.... a sword is meant to take down one foe at a time.

not only that if warriors did have the ability to hit multiple foes with a sword wouldnt that be kind of OP in itself, Dervish cant use a shield along with their scythe yet warriors can and warriors have the most armor now right?

multiple foes + sword = 100b

If you are comparing swords/axe to scythe, I imagine it would be more like:

Warrior = 500 dmg to 1 target
Derv = 500 dmg to 3 targets plus spammable cripple, deep wound, blind, interrupts, etc. There's no comparison.

As opposed to a warrior shrugging off Empathy + Blindness?


If you face a guy IRL with the ability to strike you with lightning bolts, you are screwed no matter what piece of metal you happen to be holding. Guild Wars isn't exactly IRL... Plus, there is a reason why no (or practically no) armies historically employed scythes as an effective combat weapon. It isn't one.

Buffing a class to make it viable does absolutely nothing to promote variety if the class being buffed is so painfully overpowered that it relegates other classes filling the same role to extinction.

The numbers don't lie. Before the dervish update, there was a healthy mix between warriors, assassins, and builds with no frontline. In the first month after the update, we saw a lot of dervishes. But for those claiming that dervishes are just a flash in the pan until people learn to counter them, take a look at the fun facts and statistics of the March monthly, which was after the first dervish nerf.

All indications are that the April monthly will be exactly the same, that the second dervish nerf will have been completely worthless in terms of promoting frontline variety.

Some of ur post really made me laugh, like a lot. So you actually expect people to have their inventory open and take weapons off etc, in order to cancel attack skills, in about 0.25s total, in order to not eat a diversion. dam man u got some super fast reflexes there.

Also in pve, i can imagine that doing huge amounts of damage to massive balls of enemies is fun. After all, pve is basically run up to a mob, kill it, run to the next mob, so the less time it takes to kill the mob the better. Unfortunately when u have such a character in pvp, you are unable to play any other profession because dervish pumps more damage, has equal speed buffs, interupts, huge armour etc. You name it the dervish has it. This has reduced build diversity (ie- fun) to zero.

I should also point out that when people post here and they say something is ok in pvp, yet their idea of pvp is RA and AB, i should point out you really have no idea what you are saying. These arenas are in no way tactical, and they are full of people with bad armour, and bad bars. This is not "serious business" pvp. It is entirely random and non structured.

Dervishes have ruined GvG and HA completely <-- The only pvp that used to require a brain and some skill no longer does.

He's referring to the fact that using attack skills out of order eats the diversion.

OK, we get it: Dervs are overpowered in PvP. What I'm not seeing are any specific thoughts on how to fix dervs without turning them back into a garbage class.

Here is my feeble attempt at doing so. Changes appear in bold.

Aura of Thorns
Crippling Sweep
Crippling Victory
Fleeting Stability
Featherfoot Grace
Harrier's Haste
Wearying Strike
Grenth's Aura
Heart of Fury
Avatar of Balthazar

i agree with u lem, but that was a separate point he made. Actually cancelling an attack skill to not eat diversion is just not practical and in reality u wont do it.

theory crafting
OgGjMtqI7ShagFWgLFiboblbCAA

OgejkuqJrOnb3M6mcXuF3pXBAA

might be terribad, but ive tried to copy/emulate this build http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/an..._Smash_Warrior, but with a dervish primary.

13mystisim would give you +13al, +10 from blessed or windwalkers on average
93al +25hp(chest piece)

hammer warrior would have 80/100, + 30ishhp from surivor insigs, 3 damage absorbtion, and + 1 sec on knockdown

just realised rending aura is kinda useless on 2nd build xD, oops

Why is it that there are still people that don't understand the game enough to know how obvious it is that Dervishes are broken badly posting here?

Then don't quote me lol. Your analogies were terribly flawed and people picked up on how you were ultimately clasping at straws. Should I really explain to you the drawbacks of all the examples you gave?

Not to mention how those skills are being used on 60AL professions. Storm Djinn's is also mainly used for kiting. Offensively for a sin it's terrible if you're trying to spend energy on a combo and also forced to lose -1 energy per second of running (which will be around -2/3 between attacks). WotA is an elite. Need I also mention that Assassins prove their worth unloading their chains as spike damage, whilst the all-powerful Derv will casually auto attack. It means a Sin needs bar compression skills like WotA to seem even slightly viable because if they want to be deadly little assassins, they need 5/6 combo skills or other utility skills.

Soothing and Natures Renewal revolve around your team build and those two skills usually make up a 4-man backline or hexway. They're not viable in 4v4 nor in GvG unless you're planning to play a heavily territorial game, which is silly when trip-melee derv teams with brains can just collapse on their split and just play away from your spirits. even more yawn.
Soothing images can only work on a bar that can maintain the energy as well and provide enough pressure against the rest of the team. Seriously, to counter such physical/conditional pressure (someone has already mentioned) those skills have been casually nerfed throughout the years and mean there's less to choose from.

My friend's AoB build for Random arenas has 2 attack skills, Wearying Strike and Twin Moon Sweep, the rest are to aid him in auto attacking (Lyssa's, Aura of thorns bla bla).... yawnfest.

In HA, you've got players asking what's the best way to counter it, shutdown the Dervs (but sacrifice killing power) or manage the dervs and attack the backline. The problem is the 123 migraine mesmers who on most occasions set up 1 migraine on healer and 1 on your midline, such as your bsurge ele. It's very negative gameplay but hey-ho - welcome to GW 2011.

Side note:

Logically a scythe was a farming tool made only into a weapon in Feudal lands such as China when farmers and peasants weren't allowed weapons and so resorted to their farming tools. Idealistically, it's a pointless weapon that was only stylised by artists because of it's unique shape. The most effective weapon was a Roman Gladius that was short enough to provide terrible penetrative power.

Also, they fixed the "swap weapon in inventory to cancel" a while ago. Not sure their reason why but I wouldn't be surprised if it was being abused by macro users (crippling shot springs to mind)

Dervishin' is Charlie Sheen's anti-drug.

To be honest I have yet to really have too many issues with dervs. It isn't that they are OP'ed but the fact that 90% of the teams tend to ball and or kite into there monks. Had this dervish update been brought out 2 years ago I am pretty sure 90% of the people would have turned there backs on it.....

To get straight to the point it isn't that they are Oped it is just the lack of talent on most teams in Ha nowadays. Over the past 4 years the brain power of the pvp community(mainly Ha) has gone from being somewhat smart to, let's sit here and turn the doorknob for fun dur!!!

As for the Op (LOL at the sarcasm, and LOL at prolly 50% of these posts taking it srsly)

As Charlie Sheen puts it. Dervishes are like total freakin rockstars from mars man.

That's why I posted in riverside, the replies from clueless pve players who take my OP serious are just priceless.

Darnit deluxe shush!

I still want to hear more about how easy it is to shut down these "rock stars from mars" who instant cast aoe's, automatically lose conditions and hexes, punish enchant removal, automatically out heal typical anti-melee, have permanently higher armor in a dress than someone wearing a Buick, can ignore most damage mitigation with non-targeted effect teardowns / holy damage, use both adrenaline and energy while needing less of either while passively generating as much or more of both than most other classes using them. And all without ever filling in the "/any" after the "D"

I'm popping corn and biting my pillow in anticipation of the wise words to follow. Oh teach me, masters of the inane!

For I am lost in a dark place with nothing but a pacifier and glue stick to sooth me and hold together my tenuous grasp on "reality". This surely is why I cannot fathom your words oh wise masses. Have patience with me. Take me under your sheltering wings, so warm and wise. I welcome the bliss of blind platitudes you offer.

Please start with exactly how I might skillfully play and defeat Darth Vader. I am so relieved that my skill set and gear doesn't matter.
I currently have a Dull grapefruit spoon (inscription. "Breakfast Surprise Citrus Squirt" Chance to inflict blindness, mild surprise and indignity 1% while using skills) in my mainhand slot and a ball of yarn (inscription: "Aww!" Chance to look cute while using non-attack skills 100%) offand. I am ready to learn.

You have no idea how much each post after yours hurts me.

The part in bold runs through my mind every time I participate in the broken PvP of Guild Wars and see a bunch of Dervishes.

Yes I would also like +1000 health on my monk but is that good for the game? No. Warriors are balanced as they are, and why would you want extra health in the first place? You have 100AL against everything except Holy, Dark, and Chaos damage.

I'm pretty sure monks have block stances and can kite away from you. What type of PvP do you play? I'm assuming casual just from the way you are speaking.

Dervishes can't emulate hammer warriors because they cannot get 3 seconds of knockdown nor can they knocklock people. However, they outshine axe and sword warriors. If you look at HA or GvG you'll see that the axe and sword warrior are all but dead.

By the way, warriors speccing into 14 [weapon type] and 13 Strength should run Sentinel's Insignias and I don't think many people take the -3 damage rune.

ele rework first

Twitch :: Twitch-Twitch :: want to have real discussion on meta impact of dervish skills... forced to be cynical and sarcastic due to thread... the pain... the conflict... I WILL SURVIVE! okay somehow that made me feel better! I think that skill only works well in the forums though. DAMN.

In that case, I retract my previous comment about this belonging in Gladiator's Arena.

It is quite funny to see all the people who don't realize how much the dervish is anally violating PvP with foreign objects right now.

I know but this thread is quite pointless.
Let's talk something useful instead of trolling.