Lone Wolf: "If you are not within earshot of an ally, you deal 10% additional damage and take 10% more damage."
Discuss.
Flux -- Lone Wolf
Ailina
So, it appears that this may be the first "Flux" effect.
Lone Wolf: "If you are not within earshot of an ally, you deal 10% additional damage and take 10% more damage."
Discuss.
Lone Wolf: "If you are not within earshot of an ally, you deal 10% additional damage and take 10% more damage."
Discuss.
ErrantVenture
Pointless. Makes splits in GvG a little more fragile and is useless in every other PvP format.
Space
bad news for flaggers.
owait now it doesnt matter as you cant pick them up anyway, wheeee!
owait now it doesnt matter as you cant pick them up anyway, wheeee!
FoxBat
Degen isn't damage, so those mindblasters and assassins are getting buffed more than the necs and IoPs. (albeit, likely not enough to matter vs. blood opness...) Still it's a 20% buff if you and your target are alone, the front-loaded spike guy will have a huge advantage there.
Solo-capping or carrier assassination happens alot in JQ, and vs the low HP NPCs there, I can see this making a difference.
Would not be surprised if we see more "lone wolf" behavior in RA even though it's generally a bad idea.
Solo-capping or carrier assassination happens alot in JQ, and vs the low HP NPCs there, I can see this making a difference.
Would not be surprised if we see more "lone wolf" behavior in RA even though it's generally a bad idea.
lemming
I had written four pages about how fluxes were going to be ruinous for the game, but I'm glad to see that they took the Test Krewe's input about how mutations should seek to promote different styles of play, instead of specific builds.
This one's isn't amazing - it'll probably exacerbate the extant problem of flag pushing in addition to making instagib assassins instagibbier. Still, though, it's a lot better than some of the proposed ideas.
This one's isn't amazing - it'll probably exacerbate the extant problem of flag pushing in addition to making instagib assassins instagibbier. Still, though, it's a lot better than some of the proposed ideas.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by lemming
I had written four pages about how fluxes were going to be ruinous for the game, but I'm glad to see that they took the Test Krewe's input about how mutations should seek to promote different styles of play, instead of specific builds.
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And will they stay in for MATs?
lemming
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
I'm still pretty dubious; I'm not convinced the game will be better off with them.
And will they stay in for MATs? |
Ideally, when the Live Team stops working on PvP for good, the game would be left in a state of balance like that of Starcraft: Brood War, where there's enough robustness and depth in the skills that the metagame will be able to evolve for years without outside input to promote variation. Unfortunately, it seems like they aren't planning on taking that path.
Changing anything two days before the MAT is usually a bad idea; we can only hope that the monthly cycle will begin in the first week or so starting next month.
Eramon
I like the idea of change. I'll have to test it out myself to figure out whether I like it or not. For the moment, I welcome this mechanic.
WhiteAsIce
Feels like a Berserker effect - you give and take more damage.
FoxBat
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Originally Posted by lemming
Changing anything two days before the MAT is usually a bad idea; we can only hope that the monthly cycle will begin in the first week or so starting next month.
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The effect when playing a collapsesin in JQ is very apparent.
Edit: seems NPCs don't have the effect on themselves.
SongOf
Flux is good in my opinion, because it weakens the meta for those who take advantage of it.
Maybe one day Flux will cause enchantments to expire 30% faster, and you'll see 3 rit backline in GvG, you never know.
It keeps things interesting and potentially allows for exotic builds without the risk of tweaking skills.
Maybe one day Flux will cause enchantments to expire 30% faster, and you'll see 3 rit backline in GvG, you never know.
It keeps things interesting and potentially allows for exotic builds without the risk of tweaking skills.
cantalus
i really wish anet would sort out their utterly shit dervdates before they add rubbish like this, my will to play gws is seeping away
Malchior Devenholm
Hehehe, Flux is fun in FA.
I've never seen the Kurzicks lose so fast. One guy gets behind the line and goes crazy on the Green Gate
I've never seen the Kurzicks lose so fast. One guy gets behind the line and goes crazy on the Green Gate
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by lemming
Ideally, when the Live Team stops working on PvP for good, the game would be left in a state of balance like that of Starcraft: Brood War, where there's enough robustness and depth in the skills that the metagame will be able to evolve for years without outside input to promote variation. Unfortunately, it seems like they aren't planning on taking that path.
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Units like the defiler, science vessel and bw psystorm would be very overpowered in Starcraft 2 with its smarter AI, intelligent casting, etc.
Additionally you have tons of different maps.
I'm not sure GW work like that.
lemming
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Originally Posted by SongOf
Flux is good in my opinion, because it weakens the meta for those who take advantage of it.
Maybe one day Flux will cause enchantments to expire 30% faster, and you'll see 3 rit backline in GvG, you never know. It keeps things interesting and potentially allows for exotic builds without the risk of tweaking skills. |
Anyway, I'm curious as to this hatred of a metagame that seems to emanate from the PvE/low end PvP demographic. What's the reasoning behind it, and is this dislike backed by sufficient understanding of what brings it about?
lemming
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
Broodwar balance comes more from the mechanics requirement, micro requirement to fight the game engine shortcomings (like path finding, lack of workers waypoint into mineral line, etc) and UI shortcomings than balance of units and/or abilities.
Units like the defiler, science vessel and bw psystorm would be very overpowered in Starcraft 2 with its smarter AI, intelligent casting, etc. Additionally you have tons of different maps. I'm not sure GW work like that. |
In principle, something like the last pre-derv update metagame functioned something like that. You had around ten or so builds that were more than viable divided between the three major build archetypes, none of which were incredibly overpowered relative to the others. Unfortunately, the introduction of dervishes has brought genuine format-warping bars to the metagame, bars that you're basically forced to run against opponents of similar skill, just because they're so grossly overpowered that there exist no real counters to them.
Jeydra
I'm very much against this change - balance should be achieved by balance updates, not global environmental effects. Flux will change the meta, but it does so in a brute-force fashion I simply don't like.
Oh and Lemming, Monks have been Mo/W with RC + WoH since forever - something "you're basically forced to run against opponents of similar skill". Although I do agree that Dervishes are bad for build variety, see also [RETRACT forgot in Guru cup you could only run one Dervish max].
But see also ... um ... I don't remember which mAT it was, but I think it was the one immediately after the Dervish update when mass hexes won gold.
Oh and Lemming, Monks have been Mo/W with RC + WoH since forever - something "you're basically forced to run against opponents of similar skill". Although I do agree that Dervishes are bad for build variety, see also [RETRACT forgot in Guru cup you could only run one Dervish max].
But see also ... um ... I don't remember which mAT it was, but I think it was the one immediately after the Dervish update when mass hexes won gold.
Frozen Ele
Lone Wolf works in Ascalon Academy
SpecialOpsNox
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
... see also [og] vs. [cent] ...
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Ethiops
The difference between starcraft builds "correcting" themselves and whats possible in guild wars, is that you can go over to the person's base in starcraft, look at what they're doing, and make educated guesses. You can feasibly change your build on the go and make changes based on what you've scouted of the enemy.
In guild wars you can't exactly scout out your enemy before the fight, see their build, then change your build to compensate for theirs.
So comparing the guild wars metagame, and striving for something similar to the starcraft metagame doesn't exactly work out.
In guild wars you can't exactly scout out your enemy before the fight, see their build, then change your build to compensate for theirs.
So comparing the guild wars metagame, and striving for something similar to the starcraft metagame doesn't exactly work out.
Krill
I'm just guessing that this was another random idea anet had that wasn't vetted at all. Happy birthday, more random shit toot toot.
SongOf
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Originally Posted by lemming
A flux that reduces enchantment duration by 30% would be equivalent to a skill balance that reduces the duration of all enchantments by 30% with a guarantee that it'll be gone next month. There's not any difference there.
Anyway, I'm curious as to this hatred of a metagame that seems to emanate from the PvE/low end PvP demographic. What's the reasoning behind it, and is this dislike backed by sufficient understanding of what brings it about? |
Also it's pretty obvious that even PvE/low end PvP would have a hatred of the meta: if you refuse to run what's in meta, your chances of being dropped from party increases. it's not just about the current OP builds, but the ease of forming a balanced party. everybody hates building around the odd man of the group
lemming
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Originally Posted by Ethiops
The difference between starcraft builds "correcting" themselves and whats possible in guild wars, is that you can go over to the person's base in starcraft, look at what they're doing, and make educated guesses. You can feasibly change your build on the go and make changes based on what you've scouted of the enemy.
In guild wars you can't exactly scout out your enemy before the fight, see their build, then change your build to compensate for theirs. So comparing the guild wars metagame, and striving for something similar to the starcraft metagame doesn't exactly work out. |
As for BW, we're not talking about specific matches. Instead, we're talking about larger-scale trends - just this season, PvZ was something like 70/30 because of the build that Bisu debuted before Zerg players were able to correct it.
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Oh and Lemming, Monks have been Mo/W with RC + WoH since forever - something "you're basically forced to run against opponents of similar skill".
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lemming
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Originally Posted by SongOf
Except that Flux is NOT a skill balance, and that's the entire point. No need to change 30+ of the same type of skill, no need to go back and renerf skills individually, no need to worry about PvP/PvE split versions, etc. etc. The whole point is it introduces change with minimal effort on Anets part.
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"The introduction of Flux is a compelling tool to help us keep our competitive formats dynamic"
An example of some other updates that were introduced to "keep our competitive formats dynamic":
http://www.guildwiki.org/Game_updates/20080807
http://www.guildwiki.org/Game_updates/20081211
Change can be good. Blind change for the sake of change is bad.
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Originally Posted by SongOf
Also it's pretty obvious that even PvE/low end PvP would have a hatred of the meta: if you refuse to run what's in meta, your chances of being dropped from party increases. it's not just about the current OP builds, but the ease of forming a balanced party. everybody hates building around the odd man of the group
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If you're running something weird, make sure it's for a good reason, and not just for the sake of being contrary. The latter represents the kind of poor attitude that's the biggest barrier to ascending to higher levels of play.
thedukesd
So anet actually think that this will revive codex arena? Will eradicate rank discrimination in HA? Will fix the waiting times in FA/JQ? Will fix the sync teams in RA (stumme admited they can but provided some nonsense arguments why they don't do it cause well it's in his hand to bring back team arena)? Will revive pvp? Will make paragons viable in pvp? Will bring more people in AB to be actually able to play a game? Will this fix the report abuse issue (when you refuse to resign and the other team fails big time to kill you; and you don't have running skills on your bar)?
For me the answers to above questions are all NO. So this will not really improve pvp cause actually not the meta is causing the curent pvp problems.
And I really doubt that lone wolves will actually do something else then die fast.
Also I really doubt that some classes meta (at least 2 but I actually think the number is higher) will actually change.
For me the answers to above questions are all NO. So this will not really improve pvp cause actually not the meta is causing the curent pvp problems.
And I really doubt that lone wolves will actually do something else then die fast.
Also I really doubt that some classes meta (at least 2 but I actually think the number is higher) will actually change.
DiogoSilva
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Originally Posted by thedukesd
So anet actually think that this will revive codex arena? Will eradicate rank discrimination in HA? Will fix the waiting times in FA/JQ? Will fix the sync teams in RA (stumme admited they can but provided some nonsense arguments why they don't do it cause well it's in his hand to bring back team arena)? Will revive pvp? Will make paragons viable in pvp? Will bring more people in AB to be actually able to play a game? Will this fix the report abuse issue (when you refuse to resign and the other team fails big time to kill you; and you don't have running skills on your bar)?
For me the answers to above questions are all NO. So this will not really improve pvp cause actually not the meta is causing the curent pvp problems. And I really doubt that lone wolves will actually do something else then die fast. Also I really doubt that some classes meta (at least 2 but I actually think the number is higher) will actually change. |
What John Stumme had said about RA was that the main problem of sync is the gladiator title, and that's what should be "changed". It will probably be so in the future pvp build, but we don't know how yet.
urania
the main problem of RA synch is they removed TA. the main reason they removed TA is [insert random bad excuse] (been broken for a long time, so why suddenly just kill it off?). the main reason it was broken was because of lack of interest to fix the few skills that were most rampant and abused in it and relatively late decision to divert the format itself (instead, they diverted CA).
so hands off the glad title. lock it and implement a split title for RA alone. or just lock it and dont implement any titles for ra, which would be best, really.
and yet many prefer to be something "special".
^should be a sticky serving as an introduction to RA thread, to be honest.
this flux global effect addition gives off a somewhat gloomy aura. wonder what kind of pleasant surprises anet has in stock this time. not that it matters that much in particular, that is.
so hands off the glad title. lock it and implement a split title for RA alone. or just lock it and dont implement any titles for ra, which would be best, really.
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Originally Posted by lemming
If you're running something weird, make sure it's for a good reason, and not just for the sake of being contrary. The latter represents the kind of poor attitude that's the biggest barrier to ascending to higher levels of play.
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^should be a sticky serving as an introduction to RA thread, to be honest.
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Originally Posted by DiogoSilva
If you have read the developers update, you would know this Flux is just a precursor to a future PvP build that will change rewards, pvp titles and the incentive to play some of the formats.
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Jeydra
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Originally Posted by urania
the main problem of RA synch is they removed TA. the main reason they removed TA is [insert random bad excuse] (been broken for a long time, so why suddenly just kill it off?). the main reason it was broken was because of lack of interest to fix the few skills that were most rampant and abused in it and relatively late decision to divert the format itself (instead, they diverted CA).
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@lemming - so many skills have been completely standard for so long. When Warriors were last viable, how many did not have Bull's Strike? How many Monks do not have Patient Spirit or Guardian or Cure Hex? How many Rangers did not have Apply Poison or Natural Stride or Distracting Shot etc? Before there was Healing Burst, there was only WoH (for a long time), too.
Still Number One
This flux thing is interesting, and not at all surprising to me. I seem to remember back when Izzy was doing skill balance that there was a quote essentially saying his job as a skill balancer wasn't to balance the game but instead shake up the meta so that it changes and doesn't become stagnant.
So I've always felt/known that A.Net's intention when it comes to skill changes was never to remove power creep, or promote balance, but instead to introduce new ways of playing. It is why the majority of PvPers cite those 40 elite skill buff updates to be two of the worst in the history of Guild Wars and A.Net constantly looks at them like they are some holy icon on what a successful skill balance looks like.
My opinion is that of lemmings, change for the sake of change is a terrible thing. Unfortunately that has never been and never will be A.Net's stance on things. Change for the sake of change is their number one priority when it comes to game updates.
So I've always felt/known that A.Net's intention when it comes to skill changes was never to remove power creep, or promote balance, but instead to introduce new ways of playing. It is why the majority of PvPers cite those 40 elite skill buff updates to be two of the worst in the history of Guild Wars and A.Net constantly looks at them like they are some holy icon on what a successful skill balance looks like.
My opinion is that of lemmings, change for the sake of change is a terrible thing. Unfortunately that has never been and never will be A.Net's stance on things. Change for the sake of change is their number one priority when it comes to game updates.
ErrantVenture
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
I'm using Diversion on Competitive Arena!
@lemming - so many skills have been completely standard for so long. When Warriors were last viable, how many did not have Bull's Strike? How many Monks do not have Patient Spirit or Guardian or Cure Hex? How many Rangers did not have Apply Poison or Natural Stride or Distracting Shot etc? Before there was Healing Burst, there was only WoH (for a long time), too. |
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by thedukesd
So anet actually think that this will revive codex arena? Will eradicate rank discrimination in HA? Will fix the waiting times in FA/JQ? Will fix the sync teams in RA (stumme admited they can but provided some nonsense arguments why they don't do it cause well it's in his hand to bring back team arena)? Will revive pvp? Will make paragons viable in pvp? Will bring more people in AB to be actually able to play a game? Will this fix the report abuse issue (when you refuse to resign and the other team fails big time to kill you; and you don't have running skills on your bar)?
For me the answers to above questions are all NO. So this will not really improve pvp cause actually not the meta is causing the curent pvp problems. |
Jeydra
Lemming quote, relevant part highlighted:
They've been around for quite a while ...
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Originally Posted by lemming
Every BW metagame which was imbalanced eventually corrected itself, sometimes through the introduction of new maps, but more often through the incorporation of builds which directly or indirectly counter them.
In principle, something like the last pre-derv update metagame functioned something like that. You had around ten or so builds that were more than viable divided between the three major build archetypes, none of which were incredibly overpowered relative to the others. Unfortunately, the introduction of dervishes has brought genuine format-warping bars to the metagame, bars that you're basically forced to run against opponents of similar skill, just because they're so grossly overpowered that there exist no real counters to them. |
jazilla
This update looks good. I like that it mixes up play without destroying builds people find fun. I would like to see the changes happen every three days though, but oh well. I like it.
AndrewSX
Yes, isn't THAT impressive change for playstiles, but still a interesting one. Done RA before..good monks try to stay in earshot range of allies, meeles are more vulnerable to direct damage(e.g: Invoke) and little things like this. A little of variation at least.
Bars T
Would of tought they would of fixed the turtles a nd jugs getting stuck bug first before they added new things to it 
ItsJustMe
I kind of like the idea of a 'global' change, but this seems like it's a bit overpowered. I'dve liked to seen a 5% swing on both sides, personally.
These changes should add flavor and should not be something to be Build-Wars'd.
I have a feeling these fluxes will mostly just make monks either work much harder or feel more frustrated.
-i
PS anyone think this is a prelude to GW2 'world bonuses'? I still think ANet is using GW1 as a guinea pig.
These changes should add flavor and should not be something to be Build-Wars'd.
I have a feeling these fluxes will mostly just make monks either work much harder or feel more frustrated.
-i
PS anyone think this is a prelude to GW2 'world bonuses'? I still think ANet is using GW1 as a guinea pig.
Vazze
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Originally Posted by ErrantVenture
Why is that a bad thing?
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This effect is way to small to change anything other than high end builds. Dynamic balance is nice but it has to penetrate the entire player base to matter.
Stormz
Well i put it to test in RA, im not against it, its a fresh breeze after that most awfull derv update.
mr monk rupsie
I have to say, the "lone wolf" have kind of a katalyst effect towards 4vs4 encounters in AB. Once 1 of the team breaks and start running around in different directions they get 10% more dmg (the warriors then get a big smile on their face).
On the other hand solocappers are now slightly more powerfull.
On the other hand solocappers are now slightly more powerfull.
Brian the Gladiator
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Originally Posted by lemming
Anyway, I'm curious as to this hatred of a metagame that seems to emanate from the PvE/low end PvP demographic. What's the reasoning behind it, and is this dislike backed by sufficient understanding of what brings it about?
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I'm curious as to this lack of hatred of the metagame that seems to emanate from people named lemming. Also, citing that those who hate the meta are the ones that are "low end" or "PvE" only stands to reiterate that the people who once loved GvG are now either driven out of Guild Wars entirely, or have left to PvE and those who have entered in the wake of those who were driven away from GvG are simply HA kids who have now found a new format of PvP that executes in basically the exact same way HA did about 3 years ago.