Flux -- Lone Wolf
cantalus
please stop putting these threads outside gladiators pls, pvers do not add to them in anyway that is useful and distort the thread to make it look like some pvpers are positve about flux etc
Artisan Archer
The only thing worth shutting down atm is monks, which makes for pretty one dimensional play.
For balance to occur, midline defense has to be required and buffed, monks need to be nerfed and dervishes have to be nerfed. This way people will bring shutdown to get down midline defense and can actually kill monks without ridicilous amounts of damage (dervishes)
For balance to occur, midline defense has to be required and buffed, monks need to be nerfed and dervishes have to be nerfed. This way people will bring shutdown to get down midline defense and can actually kill monks without ridicilous amounts of damage (dervishes)
lemming
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Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
I'm curious as to this lack of hatred of the metagame that seems to emanate from people named lemming. Also, citing that those who hate the meta are the ones that are "low end" or "PvE" only stands to reiterate that the people who once loved GvG are now either driven out of Guild Wars entirely, or have left to PvE and those who have entered in the wake of those who were driven away from GvG are simply HA kids who have now found a new format of PvP that executes in basically the exact same way HA did about 3 years ago.
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AndrewSX
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Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
Guild Wars used to be about disruption, shutdown, positioning, and adaptability. Now it's about positioning.... and going boom on your opponent's face. It is intellectually vapid.
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urania
its no longer about positioning either.
Dehumanizzer
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Originally Posted by thedukesd
So anet actually think that this will revive codex arena? Will eradicate rank discrimination in HA? Will fix the waiting times in FA/JQ? Will fix the sync teams in RA (stumme admited they can but provided some nonsense arguments why they don't do it cause well it's in his hand to bring back team arena)? Will revive pvp? Will make paragons viable in pvp? Will bring more people in AB to be actually able to play a game? Will this fix the report abuse issue (when you refuse to resign and the other team fails big time to kill you; and you don't have running skills on your bar)?
For me the answers to above questions are all NO. So this will not really improve pvp cause actually not the meta is causing the curent pvp problems. (...). |
distilledwill
I'm just going to come out and say it, balance is boring. Change is exciting.
lemming
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
I'm just going to come out and say it, balance is boring. Change is exciting.
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Well, it might be boring if you don't understand what's going on, I suppose. I hate watching baseball.
AndrewSX
Find 2 Dervs on 4 people is more boring than balance imo.
And yes, proper balance makes (ideally) fights harder to win, so more exciting.
And yes, proper balance makes (ideally) fights harder to win, so more exciting.
Coast
Wow man, balanced is so much more fun than anything else.
At least u used to have to think instead of nowadays blowing shit up w/o much thought into it. Also i hope they once revert everything to prophecies scale again, or add old skool versions of gvg/ha/ta so people can pick what they want to play.(but this will never happen since they are retarded/haven't got the funds or willpower)
At least u used to have to think instead of nowadays blowing shit up w/o much thought into it. Also i hope they once revert everything to prophecies scale again, or add old skool versions of gvg/ha/ta so people can pick what they want to play.(but this will never happen since they are retarded/haven't got the funds or willpower)
distilledwill
I totally see where you guys come from. And "proper" balance would be the best state for the game (whereby every single skill is viable, and each encounter is based upon player ability). But considering the 10 professions, numerous primary/secondary combinations, hundreds of skills, and thousands upon thousands of skill combinations - obtaining pure balance is impossible (especially considering the size of the live team).
In addition, the live team know they cannot release skill updates every month - they simply don't have the time. Whatever is OP once a skill update is released, will probably stay OP for quite a while before being nerfed again about 6 months down the line.
So, what can ANet do to keep the meta fresh if they cannot obtain pure balance? They can't keep sticking fingers in the holes in their bucket, as when you stem one stream another appears.
Embrace the chaos. Recognise that there will ALWAYS be OP crap out there, but introduce a structure to mix it up fairly regularly.
I know balance would be the ultimate goal, but with a team comprised of John Stumme, the intern who makes the coffee and Randy the office cat, I can't see it ever happening. In general, stuff is imbalanced because of a combination of skills working for and against each other. If the Flux changes how the game works for one month, adds in a new variable, at least it keeps the meta changing.
In addition, the live team know they cannot release skill updates every month - they simply don't have the time. Whatever is OP once a skill update is released, will probably stay OP for quite a while before being nerfed again about 6 months down the line.
So, what can ANet do to keep the meta fresh if they cannot obtain pure balance? They can't keep sticking fingers in the holes in their bucket, as when you stem one stream another appears.
Embrace the chaos. Recognise that there will ALWAYS be OP crap out there, but introduce a structure to mix it up fairly regularly.
I know balance would be the ultimate goal, but with a team comprised of John Stumme, the intern who makes the coffee and Randy the office cat, I can't see it ever happening. In general, stuff is imbalanced because of a combination of skills working for and against each other. If the Flux changes how the game works for one month, adds in a new variable, at least it keeps the meta changing.
ItsJustMe
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Originally Posted by lemming
Proper balance isn't boring.
Well, it might be boring if you don't understand what's going on, I suppose. I hate watching baseball. |
And yet, baseball is balanced.
Sorry, couldn't resist, but I do agree with you lemming. Balance is far more exciting because there are more ways to play and counter with it then any other style.
-i
ItsJustMe
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
...lots of stuff...
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The meta wasn't too far out of whack before the derv update, really. There were far more viable builds before the blood necro and then the derv.
Shake ups are fine. This game needs them. The issue is when the shake up defines the meta instead of enhancing it. And when it does, ok, but the nerfs must come sooner and swifter.
-i
tealspikes
Yay lets make splitting even more obsolete than it already was.
AndrewSX
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
Embrace the chaos. Recognise that there will ALWAYS be OP crap out there, but introduce a structure to mix it up fairly regularly.
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The whole point is the size of OPness.
Some months ago, playing PvP (take RA as example) you had to face always the same pattern of builds (or little variations of them). Normal, but this pool was quite large and vary, and the advantage wasn't so MASSIVE.
Now, all meele meta are Derv. And his power is really a LOT over the top of the other meta builds. Which in other words, means:
-1: High end PvP (GvG/HA, organized teams) will adapt (see the changes in Monk's bars), some faster, some slower (first days i've seen 6 PuG AoG Dervs+2 Monks beat an high ranked guild team. Now won't happen again), but will find his balance (and kick out wars and sins for dervs, lol).
-2: Low end PvP (RA, random composed teams, always as simple example) won't. Dervs are simply destroying any power balance there, regardless of player skill.
^This is important too. If the Derv could be powerful only in the right hands, i could even be happy....congrats to the player, it's rewarding and nice way to play.
Now is just focus on someone->active perma IAS+IMS+OP Avatar/Flashench-> spam skills till death.
bhavv
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Originally Posted by tealspikes
Yay lets make splitting even more obsolete than it already was.
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If GVG teams were simply to use two characters to split for the flag run, it wouldnt have any effect. However that would greatly reduce the capability of the main team, so a simple alternative to overcome to lone wolf could be for the runner to simply take a self armor boosting skill?
An old school classic Armor of Mist / Water Trident runner would be able to easily overcome the lone wolf thing. About to get ganked by a sin? Snare and trident spam him then run away.
lemming
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
So, what can ANet do to keep the meta fresh if they cannot obtain pure balance? They can't keep sticking fingers in the holes in their bucket, as when you stem one stream another appears.
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Edit: I'm not trying to suggest that the metagame was perfect - flag pushing is still too strong a tactic. However, the dervish update and the first flux did nothing to address that core issue either.
urania
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Originally Posted by bhavv
An old school classic Armor of Mist / Water Trident runner would be able to easily overcome the lone wolf thing. About to get ganked by a sin? Snare and trident spam him then run away.
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Skyy High
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Originally Posted by lemming
The meta was fresh before the dervish update. Ten different builds saw play in the fifteen matches of the elimination rounds of the January monthly, with the winning build being a flexible balanced split.
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I'm serious. No matter what the state of the game actually is, it will always be described as crappy and unbalanced on these forums....until something changes, and now it's unbalanced, and it used to be so perfect.
I agree that the meta has been thrown off-kilter from dervs, and that there was a distinct period of a month or two where it was probably the most balanced it had been for years.
lemming
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
And yet I got reamed out whenever I suggested that the meta was not shitty...
I'm serious. No matter what the state of the game actually is, it will always be described as crappy and unbalanced on these forums....until something changes, and now it's unbalanced, and it used to be so perfect. |
bhavv
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Originally Posted by urania
you'd be dead before you'd actually be able to run away.
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Hmmm, could maybe try and make a tanky earth elly flag runner with stoneflesh aura and a running skill. I actually would really love to go back to playing a flag runner elly in GVG, but I prefer to be in a PVE guild, and it takes too long setting up GVG teams.
Is ganking the flag runner a common tactic atm in GVG though?
Still Number One
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Oh yea, the shadow step thing .... Just delete sins from the game, no one likes them in either PVE or PVP
Hmmm, could maybe try and make a tanky earth elly flag runner with stoneflesh aura and a running skill. I actually would really love to go back to playing a flag runner elly in GVG, but I prefer to be in a PVE guild, and it takes too long setting up GVG teams. Is ganking the flag runner a common tactic atm in GVG though? |
Our Virus
Flux is a horrible idea. Soon the flux will have to do with something tht actually plays a part in pvp like the amount of healing. Then we all get mad
distilledwill
I understand that some metas will seem more stable than others, but the way I see it there are three ways that ANet can approach the PvP situation:
1) Continue to release skill updates every 3/4 months or so, sometimes hitting the nail on the head, sometimes overestimating/underestimating a problem.
2) Do nothing.
3) Create a system like Flux which, whilst not allowing the meta to relax between updates, at least asks players to rethink their strategy each month. And still get updates every 3/4 months.
Number 1) is insubstantial as there will always be unforseen problems created by skill updates, ones which cannot be corrected straight away and which will stay problems for months at a time.
Number 2) is insubstantial because... well, its a bit lazy isn't it? Plus I think we can agree that playing against nothing but Dervishes is getting a bit old.
Number 3) is insubstantial because it will force every player to take one single mechanic into account when building for a PvP match. I understand the problems with this. However, isn't it better (if we are going to be stuck in a meta where OP builds exist for a long time between skill updates) for the meta to change every month?
1) Continue to release skill updates every 3/4 months or so, sometimes hitting the nail on the head, sometimes overestimating/underestimating a problem.
2) Do nothing.
3) Create a system like Flux which, whilst not allowing the meta to relax between updates, at least asks players to rethink their strategy each month. And still get updates every 3/4 months.
Number 1) is insubstantial as there will always be unforseen problems created by skill updates, ones which cannot be corrected straight away and which will stay problems for months at a time.
Number 2) is insubstantial because... well, its a bit lazy isn't it? Plus I think we can agree that playing against nothing but Dervishes is getting a bit old.
Number 3) is insubstantial because it will force every player to take one single mechanic into account when building for a PvP match. I understand the problems with this. However, isn't it better (if we are going to be stuck in a meta where OP builds exist for a long time between skill updates) for the meta to change every month?
lemming
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
I understand that some metas will seem more stable than others, but the way I see it there are three ways that ANet can approach the PvP situation:
1) Continue to release skill updates every 3/4 months or so, sometimes hitting the nail on the head, sometimes overestimating/underestimating a problem. |
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
Number 3) is insubstantial because it will force every player to take one single mechanic into account when building for a PvP match. I understand the problems with this. However, isn't it better (if we are going to be stuck in a meta where OP builds exist for a long time between skill updates) for the meta to change every month?
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FoxBat
Whenever you acquire a new condition (from a foe?), gain X health. (10?)
Hits blood necs too, also sword wars and rangers somewhat but whatev, it's just for a month till something gets done about dervs...
Hits blood necs too, also sword wars and rangers somewhat but whatev, it's just for a month till something gets done about dervs...
Horus Moonlight
Flash enchantments cost an extra 50% energy for each additional flash enchantment equipped. ^O^
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by lemming
To be fair, that wouldn't be the case if it were getting better, would it?
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Reverend Dr
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
The most positive comment ANet seems to get from the "hardcore" community concerning balance changes is "About time!"
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HawkofStorms
6v6 HA anybody?
How long did it take them to realize that wasn't a good idea. "OMG, when we double faction rewards and put in 6v6, HA became extremely popular. Lets make 6v6 perminant."
Pretty much the exact opposite of iterative design process there. I would hope they'd have learned.
Anyway, all these big shapes up to the game at this point are kinda come out of right field. Flux just doesn't seem wanted in high end PvP. And low end PvP like AB/FA/JQ are also messed up because the NPCs were all balanced around players dealing less damage.
How long did it take them to realize that wasn't a good idea. "OMG, when we double faction rewards and put in 6v6, HA became extremely popular. Lets make 6v6 perminant."
Pretty much the exact opposite of iterative design process there. I would hope they'd have learned.
Anyway, all these big shapes up to the game at this point are kinda come out of right field. Flux just doesn't seem wanted in high end PvP. And low end PvP like AB/FA/JQ are also messed up because the NPCs were all balanced around players dealing less damage.
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by lemming
If you can come up with a good flux that makes warriors a viable option relative to dervishes again, I'm all ears.
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Maybe , dealing +15% damage when not under the effects of an enchantment, but i'm not sure then if sins would gets picked up instead of dervs....
bitchbar player
All characters have basic armor level, no armor buffs from attributes or skills, only armor insignias ,weapon mods and shield bonus is added
Artisan Archer
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Originally Posted by lemming
Anet gets a lot of good feedback from people on the Test Krewe who hit the nail on the head 100% of the time (Ensign, Hates, Jakal) but chooses not to act on it.
If you can come up with a good flux that makes warriors a viable option relative to dervishes again, I'm all ears. |
Cripple skills on the dervish should be nerfed, but I guess Flux is the new skill balancing so. Also promotes more spike oriented builds.
Or
Everyone moves 15% faster when in earshot of a partymember (doesn't stack with skills).
This way dervish IMS isn't as much better as everyone else's, aswell as promote more mobile playstyles. Again, it should be nerfed, but I guess Flux yadayada.
lemming
Targeting conditions is a huge nerf to pressure in general and doesn't stop dervishes from being better in spike builds.
Targeting something specific to dervishes such as flash enchants or mysticism, maybe, but if dervishes are that imbalanced, why not just nerf them in the first place?
Targeting something specific to dervishes such as flash enchants or mysticism, maybe, but if dervishes are that imbalanced, why not just nerf them in the first place?
Artisan Archer
I don't think anyone minds not playing pressure for a month, after about a year of triple melee... Anyway, I think warrior's still spike better than dervishes, if it wasn't for the rending aura and staggering force's cracked armor (maybe something to think about?).
fowlero
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
The most positive comment ANet seems to get from the "hardcore" community concerning balance changes is "About time!"
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FoxBat
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Originally Posted by Artisan Archer
I don't think anyone minds not playing pressure for a month, after about a year of triple melee... Anyway, I think warrior's still spike better than dervishes, if it wasn't for the rending aura and staggering force's cracked armor (maybe something to think about?).
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Which brings up the point... every derv spike build has at least 2 other conditions they inflict in addition to deep wound... something a "gain life with condition" flux would somewhat mitigate.
distilledwill
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Originally Posted by lemming
Anet gets a lot of good feedback from people on the Test Krewe who hit the nail on the head 100% of the time (Ensign, Hates, Jakal) but chooses not to act on it.
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Quote:
| If you can come up with a good flux that makes warriors a viable option relative to dervishes again, I'm all ears. |
AndrewSX
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
I think the point is (as I understand it) ANet will not be releasing Fluxes to combat specific problems. I don't think the point of the Flux is to patch up problems until the skill updates come along - from what I can tell the point is to encourage players to try builds outside of the meta created by the skill update to provide variety in the intervening month. If they start tailoring Fluxes towards combating specific problems then they might as well use that time to work on the skill updates. If ANet do start to target Fluxes towards the holes in their skill updates, then I would definately concede that they're a bad idea.
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If a skill update is stupid/pointless/wrong, the solution isn't a flux (also cause wear off in 1 month....), but a fix to that update (well, we had 2 fixes of debatable effectiveness, but this is another story).
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
I've no doubt that Ensign, Hates, Jakal and the rest of the Teste Krewe do a brilliant job. But I'm also sure that ANet aren't maliciously ignoring their suggestions, there must be some practical reason. Either way, I wasn't under the impression that ANet are using Fluxes as an alternative to skill updates, but something in addition to them. So them ignoring the Test Krewe is another matter altogether.
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Edit:
I find it hard to believe that the aforementioned people would have been quiet if the Derv update was run by them, not pointing out obvious problems, etc. And I find it even harder to believe that the Derv update was not run by the TK.
What good reason could ANet have had to release that on PvP?