I do believe his point was that he's wanted the debate to end a long time ago and for you two to just agree to run your own choices. Hence why he's annoyed that it was brought back up in another thread.
Also, @ the Fury, I pull the mob back into the cave leading into city. Wrap them around the corner and spike them, and flee to the gate if needed. At least in HM when I did it, they lost aggro at just before the gate.
Dwaynaway - A HM build with minimal skill needed.
Plutoman
LexTalionis
I've been playing around with the Dwayna main healer that I used for my Tombs run and I'm quite taken with it. Arenanet seems to have given us a completely viable alternative to monks and ritualists, but I wonder how long it will take for the general public to accept it (It took them 3 years to accept Ritualists as healers, and even nowadays people still prefer Monks)
This seems to work particularly well - it still has a few AI issues, the AI keeps running into range for Dust Cloak (I've tested with spears, she still moves), but it's just very very solid.
Disadvantages of a Dwayna Healer:
Your main heals are on long cooldowns or conditional, the best one (Signet of Pious Light) is about equivalent to a Holy Burst, but can only be used every 5 seconds.
Not particularly flexible. It's not easy to fit other class skills on a Dwayna healer bar because of space and attribute constraints.
No non-self Hex nor condition removal. Dwayna healers are incapable of removing hexes nor conditions from other party members with Dervish skills alone (excepting Avatar of Melandru, which defeats the point). No Dervish resurrection skills either. (Heroes can't use Eternal Aura)
Thanks to Hero AI quirks, putting on Dust Cloak or other PBAoE effects will make the Dervish run into close proximity of enemies. Dwayna healers are very resilient, but not invincible. This being said, she tanked every single Grawl next to Fozzy for a good 2 minutes with the aid of an ER Prot hero, so it's something you can work around.
You may need to micro on the run. There's only one enchantment I know of that Dervishes will autocast out of combat - Faithful Intervention (20 second cooldown). If you need to speed up the rate of healing, it might be necessary to click every single flash enchantment you can on her bar.
Advantages of the Dwayna Healer
Can do minor AoE damage and effects - Dust Cloak does small amounts of Earth damage, but ends up practically blinding everything around you for 4 out of 6 seconds if you tear it down fast enough. This is very good damage prevention.
Has 85+ base armor (Thanks to Mysticism). Monks have 60. Incredibly survivable thanks to very very strong self-healing.
Extremely interrupt resilient. Flash Enchantments can't be interrupted. If using Pious Concentration, not only can't you be interrupted, trying to will trigger an AoE heal and a teardown effect as long as you have enchantments up. Heck, she's even partially resistant to knockdown.
-Extremely- hex resilient. Thanks to Avatar of Dwayna, Hexes are by and large completely irrelevant. Scourge Healing, Scourge Enchantment, Backfire, Arcane Conundrum/Frustration, Migraine, etc etc. I'm not quite sure when the hex is removed, but it *seems* to me that they get removed before the enchantment is even cast, meaning it counters Arcane Languor, Backfire, and Diversion (I may be wrong on this).
Very strong Energy Management: Especially if you use Meditation.
Heals all allies in earshot. Super Minion support. Nuff said.
Very very few counters. It's difficult to think of things that will directly counter Avatar of Dwayna healers. Signet of Humility, Well of the Profane perhaps, and huge single target spike damage. Enchantment stripping is nearly pointless, if you get hit by Rend Enchantments, you just get healed for a ridiculous amount and put up a few more enchantments within seconds.
Even if you don't plan to go full Dwaynaway with the Soul Twisting, it's worth trying an AoD pure healer if you haven't before. I can guarantee that it will be interesting. (watch out for her aggro though!)
This seems to work particularly well - it still has a few AI issues, the AI keeps running into range for Dust Cloak (I've tested with spears, she still moves), but it's just very very solid.
Disadvantages of a Dwayna Healer:
Your main heals are on long cooldowns or conditional, the best one (Signet of Pious Light) is about equivalent to a Holy Burst, but can only be used every 5 seconds.
Not particularly flexible. It's not easy to fit other class skills on a Dwayna healer bar because of space and attribute constraints.
No non-self Hex nor condition removal. Dwayna healers are incapable of removing hexes nor conditions from other party members with Dervish skills alone (excepting Avatar of Melandru, which defeats the point). No Dervish resurrection skills either. (Heroes can't use Eternal Aura)
Thanks to Hero AI quirks, putting on Dust Cloak or other PBAoE effects will make the Dervish run into close proximity of enemies. Dwayna healers are very resilient, but not invincible. This being said, she tanked every single Grawl next to Fozzy for a good 2 minutes with the aid of an ER Prot hero, so it's something you can work around.
You may need to micro on the run. There's only one enchantment I know of that Dervishes will autocast out of combat - Faithful Intervention (20 second cooldown). If you need to speed up the rate of healing, it might be necessary to click every single flash enchantment you can on her bar.
Advantages of the Dwayna Healer
Can do minor AoE damage and effects - Dust Cloak does small amounts of Earth damage, but ends up practically blinding everything around you for 4 out of 6 seconds if you tear it down fast enough. This is very good damage prevention.
Has 85+ base armor (Thanks to Mysticism). Monks have 60. Incredibly survivable thanks to very very strong self-healing.
-Extremely- hex resilient. Thanks to Avatar of Dwayna, Hexes are by and large completely irrelevant. Scourge Healing, Scourge Enchantment, Backfire, Arcane Conundrum/Frustration, Migraine, etc etc. I'm not quite sure when the hex is removed, but it *seems* to me that they get removed before the enchantment is even cast, meaning it counters Arcane Languor, Backfire, and Diversion (I may be wrong on this).
Very strong Energy Management: Especially if you use Meditation.
Heals all allies in earshot. Super Minion support. Nuff said.
Very very few counters. It's difficult to think of things that will directly counter Avatar of Dwayna healers. Signet of Humility, Well of the Profane perhaps, and huge single target spike damage. Enchantment stripping is nearly pointless, if you get hit by Rend Enchantments, you just get healed for a ridiculous amount and put up a few more enchantments within seconds.
Even if you don't plan to go full Dwaynaway with the Soul Twisting, it's worth trying an AoD pure healer if you haven't before. I can guarantee that it will be interesting. (watch out for her aggro though!)
Lodar Aric
Thinking of trying this myself, but on my necro primary running either OOU or AOTL. I haven't used a AOD healer before though I have seen groups using them more (but still rare).
Do you think a Necro MM will work ok with this setup? And if So do you think it could be worthwhile running curses on the BIP or another character? For Barbs, Mark of Pain etc? Especially with 20 minions.
Do you think a Necro MM will work ok with this setup? And if So do you think it could be worthwhile running curses on the BIP or another character? For Barbs, Mark of Pain etc? Especially with 20 minions.
LexTalionis
@Lodar:
I see no reason why it wouldn't work, Dwayna healers almost seem built for Minion Masters as damage will be spread out amongst your minions and Dwayna healers will heal of them simultaneously.
Frankly, if you have good Energy management, you don't need Blood is Power at all. It'll help if you have energy issues, but it's viable to just have someone use Blood Ritual and go with Order of Undeath instead. I use Blood is Power because I'm a Mesmer that runs 0 Inspiration Magic and I use it to fuel the other mesmers in Dwaynaway, otherwise I'd use OOU all the time.
I wouldn't recommend Aura of the Lich, it doesn't have any synergy with Dwayna healers. Order of Undeath with Bone Fiends (they attack faster) is far superior.
I haven't tried it with Mark of Pain but there's no reason why it wouldn't work, I generally avoid Mark of Pain only because I hate the recast and scatter, but it's really strong in its own right. Go take a look at Kunder's build, I think he posted it earlier in this thread - it's a pretty good example of OOU+Dwayna abuse.
edit: Energy might be a problem since OOU is expensive, so you might try this on your main:
Necromancer:
12+1+3 Death Magic
12+1 Soul Reaping
3+1 Blood (optional)
Order of Undeath|Animate Bone Fiend|Masochism|Blood of the Master| Ebon Standard of Honor| 2 more slots
2 slots could be GOLE+other skill (I really like Dark Bond!) or Signet of Agony + Angorodon's Gaze. It's just what I'd use if I played my necromancer (poor guy, never touch him these days)
I see no reason why it wouldn't work, Dwayna healers almost seem built for Minion Masters as damage will be spread out amongst your minions and Dwayna healers will heal of them simultaneously.
Frankly, if you have good Energy management, you don't need Blood is Power at all. It'll help if you have energy issues, but it's viable to just have someone use Blood Ritual and go with Order of Undeath instead. I use Blood is Power because I'm a Mesmer that runs 0 Inspiration Magic and I use it to fuel the other mesmers in Dwaynaway, otherwise I'd use OOU all the time.
I wouldn't recommend Aura of the Lich, it doesn't have any synergy with Dwayna healers. Order of Undeath with Bone Fiends (they attack faster) is far superior.
I haven't tried it with Mark of Pain but there's no reason why it wouldn't work, I generally avoid Mark of Pain only because I hate the recast and scatter, but it's really strong in its own right. Go take a look at Kunder's build, I think he posted it earlier in this thread - it's a pretty good example of OOU+Dwayna abuse.
edit: Energy might be a problem since OOU is expensive, so you might try this on your main:
Necromancer:
12+1+3 Death Magic
12+1 Soul Reaping
3+1 Blood (optional)
Order of Undeath|Animate Bone Fiend|Masochism|Blood of the Master| Ebon Standard of Honor| 2 more slots
2 slots could be GOLE+other skill (I really like Dark Bond!) or Signet of Agony + Angorodon's Gaze. It's just what I'd use if I played my necromancer (poor guy, never touch him these days)
heavenlight
@Lex, I'm just theory-crafting here but in terms of defense, the obvious synergy I see in your build is the fact that Dwayna heals spirits that loses health and so make your defensive rit spirits more durable. Going along the same line, have you tried exploiting Agony and Rejuvenation with Dwayna? Agony in particular can deal sick dps to large group of foes.
Lodar Aric
My Necro is a newish char, just made 20 but still early in the campaigns so don't have full access to all the heroes yet but it seems to be working well so far. Currrently running OOU on both myself and the necro hero, which seems to be working fine and doesn't seem to have any probs in raising a large army.
Seems to be working well so far, I really like the synergy between the fiends and the Dwayna healers, means I don't really need to use BOTM much or use Vamp horrors to cover the OOU health loss.
Looking forward to getting more heroes which should make it even better.
Seems to be working well so far, I really like the synergy between the fiends and the Dwayna healers, means I don't really need to use BOTM much or use Vamp horrors to cover the OOU health loss.
Looking forward to getting more heroes which should make it even better.
LexTalionis
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlight
@Lex, I'm just theory-crafting here but in terms of defense, the obvious synergy I see in your build is the fact that Dwayna heals spirits that loses health and so make your defensive rit spirits more durable. Going along the same line, have you tried exploiting Agony and Rejuvenation with Dwayna? Agony in particular can deal sick dps to large group of foes.
Actually, I don't believe Dwaynaway heals spirits, I'm afraid. Would be absolutely freaking retarded if it did. 
Rejuvenation and Recovery aren't too bad though, because they're passive healing that happen even if you get knocked down and stuff (although latent Dwayna Healing would also sort of fall into this category - you can heal with Avatar of Dwayna and enchantment expiry even if you're KDed)
Agony isn't generally worth it in my experience, it does about 10 DPS per enemy, which is equal to the DoT degen from Cry of Pain. Destruction is a bit more charming if I wanted to use that.
@Lodar: Well, get Ebon Vanguard Standard of Honor ASAP. Combined with bone fiends and Order of Undeath, bosses will die -ridiculously- quickly.
Rejuvenation and Recovery aren't too bad though, because they're passive healing that happen even if you get knocked down and stuff (although latent Dwayna Healing would also sort of fall into this category - you can heal with Avatar of Dwayna and enchantment expiry even if you're KDed)
Agony isn't generally worth it in my experience, it does about 10 DPS per enemy, which is equal to the DoT degen from Cry of Pain. Destruction is a bit more charming if I wanted to use that.
@Lodar: Well, get Ebon Vanguard Standard of Honor ASAP. Combined with bone fiends and Order of Undeath, bosses will die -ridiculously- quickly.
heavenlight
Dang, I got misled since spirits count as allies and the description says heal allies instead of heal non-spirit allies.
If it can be kept alive, Agony deals much more dps than Bloodsong as long as there are at least two foes. But yea, since spirits don't get healed, agony is crappy because it dies way too quickly.
If it can be kept alive, Agony deals much more dps than Bloodsong as long as there are at least two foes. But yea, since spirits don't get healed, agony is crappy because it dies way too quickly.
LexTalionis
Small comparision for the interested:
Dwayna healer can easily sustain the Fiends and the Necromancer through Order of Undeath.
Necromancer with 10 Bone Fiends at 15 Death Magic + 2 from Masochism, 10 Curses for Barbs. Maxed Vanguard Title (Energy assisted by Blood is Power from second Necro). Damage would be higher with Mark of Pain and Splinter Weapon.
Spirits = Every single nonelite communing spirit + SoS + SoGM + Bloodsong + Painful Bond.
Note that Bone Fiend damage is slightly armor dependant. Of course, you could just bring both.
Brought Order of Undeath out for a jog in Twin Serpent Lakes HM, laughed at the White Mantle healers trying to outheal 300+ DPS.
Dwayna healer can easily sustain the Fiends and the Necromancer through Order of Undeath.
Necromancer with 10 Bone Fiends at 15 Death Magic + 2 from Masochism, 10 Curses for Barbs. Maxed Vanguard Title (Energy assisted by Blood is Power from second Necro). Damage would be higher with Mark of Pain and Splinter Weapon.
Spirits = Every single nonelite communing spirit + SoS + SoGM + Bloodsong + Painful Bond.
Note that Bone Fiend damage is slightly armor dependant. Of course, you could just bring both.
Brought Order of Undeath out for a jog in Twin Serpent Lakes HM, laughed at the White Mantle healers trying to outheal 300+ DPS.
hunter
I have played with it myself.
IT does good dmg, until you face mob AoEs, and its a pain trying to get it rolling, ie having enough minions to do considerable dmg.
And of course it slows you down quite a bit. Its strong, but kinda boring having to wait for minions to catch up
IT does good dmg, until you face mob AoEs, and its a pain trying to get it rolling, ie having enough minions to do considerable dmg.
And of course it slows you down quite a bit. Its strong, but kinda boring having to wait for minions to catch up
LexTalionis
Spent a few hours gathering data, didn't want to start a new thread for this, so I'll post it here.
Having heroes run into point blank range of the enemy is entirely preventable if you use Passive mode on Dwayna healers. The tradeoff is that they won't use AoEs offensively (they will still use some defensively) and will prefer to kite. They will also not prioritise interruption with Lyssa's Aura, but this may be a small tradeoff.
Caveats:
Hex removal applies AFTER effects like Backfire, so effects like Visions of Regret, Backfire and Arcane Languor are semi-effective.
Dervish Passive AI Behaviour List
(?) indicates skills that have no useful effect in Passive Mode whatsoever.
Will maintain out of combat:
Faithful Intervention
Will cast as long as in combat, and not enchanted with it:
Meditation (highest priority)
Veil of Thorns
Shield of Force
Whirling Charge
Fleeting Stability
Conviction (self condition removal)
Sand Shards (?)
Mystic Corruption (Useful in areas with Disease)
Intimidating Aura
Attacker's Insight
Harrier's Grasp (self condition removal)
Lyssa's Haste (low priority)
Pious Concentration (stance)
Pious Fury (stance)
Pious Haste (stance)
Will cast when damaged:
Vital Boon
Will cast if foe is in range of AoE:
Balthazar's Rage
Grenth's Aura
Aura of Thorns
Grenth's Fingers
Will NOT specifically cast if affected by a condition:
Grenth's Fingers
Will cast if foe is nearby and self is low on Energy:
Eremite's Zeal
Will cast only when attacked:
Dust Cloak
Mirage Cloak
Staggering Force (?)
Will not autocast at all in passive:
Mystic Vigor
Watchful Intervention
Rending Aura
Zealous Renewal
Based on these data, I've updated my default Dwayna pure healer and minion support build:
It's still modifiable, but the rate of healing is respectable and 85 Armor rating with over 30% extra damage reduction from magic is quite nice. If you don't require Pious Concentration, you may sub in Infuse Health or Dwayna's Touch (warning, this spell is about as reliable as Healing touch is on Alesia) or any other utility skill of choice.
Having heroes run into point blank range of the enemy is entirely preventable if you use Passive mode on Dwayna healers. The tradeoff is that they won't use AoEs offensively (they will still use some defensively) and will prefer to kite. They will also not prioritise interruption with Lyssa's Aura, but this may be a small tradeoff.
Caveats:
Hex removal applies AFTER effects like Backfire, so effects like Visions of Regret, Backfire and Arcane Languor are semi-effective.
Dervish Passive AI Behaviour List
(?) indicates skills that have no useful effect in Passive Mode whatsoever.
Will maintain out of combat:
Faithful Intervention
Will cast as long as in combat, and not enchanted with it:
Meditation (highest priority)
Veil of Thorns
Shield of Force
Whirling Charge
Fleeting Stability
Conviction (self condition removal)
Sand Shards (?)
Mystic Corruption (Useful in areas with Disease)
Intimidating Aura
Attacker's Insight
Harrier's Grasp (self condition removal)
Lyssa's Haste (low priority)
Pious Concentration (stance)
Pious Fury (stance)
Pious Haste (stance)
Will cast when damaged:
Vital Boon
Will cast if foe is in range of AoE:
Balthazar's Rage
Grenth's Aura
Aura of Thorns
Grenth's Fingers
Will NOT specifically cast if affected by a condition:
Grenth's Fingers
Will cast if foe is nearby and self is low on Energy:
Eremite's Zeal
Will cast only when attacked:
Dust Cloak
Mirage Cloak
Staggering Force (?)
Will not autocast at all in passive:
Mystic Vigor
Watchful Intervention
Rending Aura
Zealous Renewal
Based on these data, I've updated my default Dwayna pure healer and minion support build:
It's still modifiable, but the rate of healing is respectable and 85 Armor rating with over 30% extra damage reduction from magic is quite nice. If you don't require Pious Concentration, you may sub in Infuse Health or Dwayna's Touch (warning, this spell is about as reliable as Healing touch is on Alesia) or any other utility skill of choice.
LexTalionis
I have to apologise - I realise that I'm pretty much talking to myself recently. Unfortunately, thanks to some intensive AI configuring, it is my great displeasure to announce that I frankly believe I've come up with a build that is going to get Dwayna healing nerfed into the ground.
Usage: Set hero to Passive.
I can't really explain why it's so ridiculous, it's something that more or less has to be experienced to be believed, but to be perfectly honest, I don't believe it's anywhere -near- fair nor balanced. I estimate it's on a scale of broken of about 0.6 Imbagons (I don't even want to imagine what it'll do with an Imbagon) and my only consolation is that perhaps ArenaNet doesn't read these forums, PvXWiki seems to hate any form of defensive innovation, people around here think I'm bonkers with my obsession with Dwayna healing, and that this isn't going to be so hot in Elite areas with Exhaustion environmental effects or against Mallyx/Dhuum.
Edit: Thankfully, it's not as broken as I thought: Note that I currently run 3 Aegis Chains, which may be one reason why the AI is using this so well. For the AI to use Release properly, the AoD healer requires a Monk Enchantment or the AI won't use Release (You'll have to Micro it). Dwayna's Sorrow works very well though.
Usage: Set hero to Passive.
I can't really explain why it's so ridiculous, it's something that more or less has to be experienced to be believed, but to be perfectly honest, I don't believe it's anywhere -near- fair nor balanced. I estimate it's on a scale of broken of about 0.6 Imbagons (I don't even want to imagine what it'll do with an Imbagon) and my only consolation is that perhaps ArenaNet doesn't read these forums, PvXWiki seems to hate any form of defensive innovation, people around here think I'm bonkers with my obsession with Dwayna healing, and that this isn't going to be so hot in Elite areas with Exhaustion environmental effects or against Mallyx/Dhuum.
Edit: Thankfully, it's not as broken as I thought: Note that I currently run 3 Aegis Chains, which may be one reason why the AI is using this so well. For the AI to use Release properly, the AoD healer requires a Monk Enchantment or the AI won't use Release (You'll have to Micro it). Dwayna's Sorrow works very well though.
EFGJack
Release enchantments only works on Monk Enchantments. Unless it's glitched. You may want to double check that
Edit: brainfart, ignore this message. :> As it heals for 250 something per release even without the bonus from the spell itself. Nice thinking.
Edit: brainfart, ignore this message. :> As it heals for 250 something per release even without the bonus from the spell itself. Nice thinking.
Fierabras
With a 20% ench mod or w/o?
LexTalionis
@EFGJack: Nah, you're partially right, but for the wrong reasons. (AI)
Enchanting mod doesn't matter. Use any weapon you want (I recommend staff or wand and shield) Just make sure you have 1-3 copies of Aegis in your party and it's like activating demigod mode. Melonni is nearly indestructible.
Edit: I've just rebound Release Enchantments to an "emergency" hotkey.
Any time I think things are going badly, hit it.
Enchanting mod doesn't matter. Use any weapon you want (I recommend staff or wand and shield) Just make sure you have 1-3 copies of Aegis in your party and it's like activating demigod mode. Melonni is nearly indestructible.
Edit: I've just rebound Release Enchantments to an "emergency" hotkey.
Any time I think things are going badly, hit it.
distilledwill
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
I love a bit of innovation and so will totally be trying this once my internet connection is back up. I commend you on your imagination.
LexTalionis
Re: Release Enchantments
It's actually more than that - it's largely an AI build that mostly exploits only the enchantments that Hero Dervishes autocast as long as any foe is engaged, meaning they'll never be lazy with them (unlike Cloak of Dust, which is fantastic in theory and less great in practice because she won't cast it unless she's being attacked). The healing output is extremely ridiculous, making my UA monk green with envy, it has zero energy issues even without BiP and it can AoE heal on command, unlike the normal Dwayna healer (which has to wait anywhere from 3-10 seconds to actually heal, by which time people are sometimes dead).
I've been running this for half the day and the AI uses it -excellently- exactly when the heal is needed - as long as she has a Monk Enchantment on her. The Flash Enchantments are mostly short duration, but they don't often expire when you need them to (there should almost always be one off recharge anyway), so the main issue is getting the rate of healing up. It's viable to run without it, but your anti-pressure has to be strong. Like I said, it's more or less something you actually have to run to understand how strong it is (preferably with minions). Imbue Health is completely unnecessary.
edit: If you don't run multiple copies of Aegis and don't want to micro or use Release, it's viable too - the AI list is on one of the above posts, but you can use one of the following enchantments to substitute for Release: Sand Shards (not recommended) Shield of Force (good, I recommend this) and Mystic Corruption (somewhat good, but long duration). Using other Flash Enchantments will work, but they usually have pretty long durations or are AI conditional, which harms the heal rate. I've tried both and I'm pretty taken with Release though. There's times when you -really- need an active heal as opposed to one 3 seconds in the future.
Note that if you're going to micro the heal, you can use Contemplation of Purity instead for a faster spike heal that isn't a spell.
I'm using the following team build:
Which includes 3 copies of Aegis, this might be why I feel invincible at times. (Though not invincible enough to handle 4 groups and two bosses at once without deaths, haha. Didn't wipe, though.)
It's actually more than that - it's largely an AI build that mostly exploits only the enchantments that Hero Dervishes autocast as long as any foe is engaged, meaning they'll never be lazy with them (unlike Cloak of Dust, which is fantastic in theory and less great in practice because she won't cast it unless she's being attacked). The healing output is extremely ridiculous, making my UA monk green with envy, it has zero energy issues even without BiP and it can AoE heal on command, unlike the normal Dwayna healer (which has to wait anywhere from 3-10 seconds to actually heal, by which time people are sometimes dead).
I've been running this for half the day and the AI uses it -excellently- exactly when the heal is needed - as long as she has a Monk Enchantment on her. The Flash Enchantments are mostly short duration, but they don't often expire when you need them to (there should almost always be one off recharge anyway), so the main issue is getting the rate of healing up. It's viable to run without it, but your anti-pressure has to be strong. Like I said, it's more or less something you actually have to run to understand how strong it is (preferably with minions). Imbue Health is completely unnecessary.
edit: If you don't run multiple copies of Aegis and don't want to micro or use Release, it's viable too - the AI list is on one of the above posts, but you can use one of the following enchantments to substitute for Release: Sand Shards (not recommended) Shield of Force (good, I recommend this) and Mystic Corruption (somewhat good, but long duration). Using other Flash Enchantments will work, but they usually have pretty long durations or are AI conditional, which harms the heal rate. I've tried both and I'm pretty taken with Release though. There's times when you -really- need an active heal as opposed to one 3 seconds in the future.
Note that if you're going to micro the heal, you can use Contemplation of Purity instead for a faster spike heal that isn't a spell.
I'm using the following team build:
Which includes 3 copies of Aegis, this might be why I feel invincible at times. (Though not invincible enough to handle 4 groups and two bosses at once without deaths, haha. Didn't wipe, though.)
The Josip
In all honestly, you use a LOT of defense which is why you're so invincible. I'm not sure whether your offense suffers or not. You use: minions, spirits, PI, ST-Shelter/Union, Dwayna healer, 3x Aegis, 2x Shield of Absorption, 2x Convert Hexes, two sets of interrupts on mesmers, few paragon shouts, rt heal. Plus your own Panic bar.
Btw you kinda micro Release and OoU?
Make sure you watch that PI mesmer a bit. With so many interrupts, practical usefulness might be much lower than theoretical.
Btw you kinda micro Release and OoU?
Make sure you watch that PI mesmer a bit. With so many interrupts, practical usefulness might be much lower than theoretical.
LexTalionis
Simply put: I usually run two AoD melee splinters. This version of AoD does more and more efficient healing than both combined, largely due to AI issues and a higher enchantment overturn rate. I play highly defensive builds and if I'm not impressed by a build variation, I generally don't post about it (which would be over 95% of them - if you've ever seen my screenshots, you'd probably notice I never quite use the same build twice except ironically, on my main bar and possibly the SoS ritualist). Like I said, if you're skeptical, just try it. I don't ever do theory without practical experimentation.
I don't usually micro at all because I'm lazy. This being said, Release is pretty easy to micro if I just treat it like another hotkey as it requires no target selection. But it's completely unnecessary to micro with 2-3 Aegis copies
PI isn't particularly practical, I just occasionally forget to swap it out when I'm changing between builds to test the AI.
I don't usually micro at all because I'm lazy. This being said, Release is pretty easy to micro if I just treat it like another hotkey as it requires no target selection. But it's completely unnecessary to micro with 2-3 Aegis copies
PI isn't particularly practical, I just occasionally forget to swap it out when I'm changing between builds to test the AI.
Takumi Tan
Possible to show the heroes build template?
LexTalionis
Oh - sorry, went to take an early night's nap. Builds are easy enough:
Dervish template: OgOjoarLLPvX9Lwb+SuJwqXEMA
Mesmers using: OQhjAwCc4MnAS30z0hTzBI/LGA
(switch elite as needed. Stacked Complicate is very strong)
SoS Rit: OAmkEeiM5Yqz10bixmcMTfcNeHD
Attributes 12+1+4 Channeling, 7+1 Resto 3+1 Spawning 10 Command (a bit schizophrenic. Possible to drop spirit light, was just testing if additional support was needed for AoD (it wasn't)
OOU Necro: OANFQRxW2znESFVQAxLhRTV1WoiA
Death Major, SR Major
ST Rit: OAOk8YgcoQuD20694ObBk7ay1ZC
Blood Necro: OANEQqtH+GdHMDRDVGEQ8SUV1IC
13 Blood, 12 SR, 10 Curses, 6 Prot prayers
As TheJosip mentioned, it's perhaps a bit too defensive; you can scale some of it down (it still kills very quickly as long as you wait for the MM or if you take Ebon Vanguard Standard of Honor, but this might also be due to my contribution as a Wastrel Mesmer). The basic idea behind the new build though is that I'm finding 3 copies of Aegis chained are superior to 1 copy of Displacement. I'm thinking of dropping Union and getting more offense, perhaps attack spirits using FoxBat's AI tips on Shelter.
Dervish template: OgOjoarLLPvX9Lwb+SuJwqXEMA
Mesmers using: OQhjAwCc4MnAS30z0hTzBI/LGA
(switch elite as needed. Stacked Complicate is very strong)
SoS Rit: OAmkEeiM5Yqz10bixmcMTfcNeHD
Attributes 12+1+4 Channeling, 7+1 Resto 3+1 Spawning 10 Command (a bit schizophrenic. Possible to drop spirit light, was just testing if additional support was needed for AoD (it wasn't)
OOU Necro: OANFQRxW2znESFVQAxLhRTV1WoiA
Death Major, SR Major
ST Rit: OAOk8YgcoQuD20694ObBk7ay1ZC
Blood Necro: OANEQqtH+GdHMDRDVGEQ8SUV1IC
13 Blood, 12 SR, 10 Curses, 6 Prot prayers
As TheJosip mentioned, it's perhaps a bit too defensive; you can scale some of it down (it still kills very quickly as long as you wait for the MM or if you take Ebon Vanguard Standard of Honor, but this might also be due to my contribution as a Wastrel Mesmer). The basic idea behind the new build though is that I'm finding 3 copies of Aegis chained are superior to 1 copy of Displacement. I'm thinking of dropping Union and getting more offense, perhaps attack spirits using FoxBat's AI tips on Shelter.
Carboplatin
So your dervishes have 2 points in scythe mastery. Is that intentional?
Kraviec
they mostly kill with splinter weapon anyways ;p
LexTalionis
They don't use scythes when you're using the pure Dwayna healer (should be set on passive so she doesn't pull everything in 3 aggro bubbles), so it doesn't matter. The version of Dwaynaway that uses scythes uses banishing strike, splinter, sand shards and grenth's fingers, none of which care about your scythe actually doing damage.
Just looked at my build after waking up and realised that the SoS Ritualist and MM's secondaries should be swapped. Fall Back! is best on a MM, for obvious reasons.
Going to test it out in a few HM runs and make the build better, will update the post with template codes if needed.
Just looked at my build after waking up and realised that the SoS Ritualist and MM's secondaries should be swapped. Fall Back! is best on a MM, for obvious reasons.
Going to test it out in a few HM runs and make the build better, will update the post with template codes if needed.
mugen
finally full doa (3 runs)
time are irrevelant many pauses
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/2994/gw161.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6190/gw164y.jpg
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5803/gw184p.jpg
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/6269/gw171v.jpg
~3h30 if i add times
except mallyx
http://imageshack.us/m/717/1207/gw186e.jpg
wondering how i can kill him with 3 * full enchants char & 2 * full hex
well i dont care, just happy i ve cleaned doa with 3 Dervish & 1 paragon !
ps : i ve tried your "super healer" version but it didnt impress When i deserve failing, i failed, even with 2 or 3 of them
time are irrevelant many pauses
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/2994/gw161.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6190/gw164y.jpg
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5803/gw184p.jpg
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/6269/gw171v.jpg
~3h30 if i add times
except mallyx
http://imageshack.us/m/717/1207/gw186e.jpg
wondering how i can kill him with 3 * full enchants char & 2 * full hex
well i dont care, just happy i ve cleaned doa with 3 Dervish & 1 paragon !
ps : i ve tried your "super healer" version but it didnt impress
When i deserve failing, i failed, even with 2 or 3 of them
LexTalionis
Er, don't use enchantments on Mallyx, very very bad idea and Dwayna can't handle that. Good job with the DOA though! Congratulations!
The straight up healer was mainly designed to be used with OOU + Bone Fiends. Like I said, it requires monk enchantments for the AI to function properly, but it's quite possible I'm getting skewed results (I average a 100-250 life heal every 5-7 seconds with signets inbetween though).
Temporarily dumped the ST for an ER Prot and made an interesting discovery - rather than bind Release Enchantments, it's quite possible just to bind Dwayna's Sorrow and cast it every time it gets consumed. Forcing Dwayna's Sorrow without specifying a target will make your hero cast it on himself (and usually hit the Dervish) - it's unable to auto target minions. Much less micro involved, but it's less reliable than triggering Release directly, (Hero Flee AI can take precedence when being hit by AoEs).
edit: Even easier solution, use a macro keyboard and make a 2 sequence keybind to target the Dervish directly and hit her with it. Live Vicariously works too. Of course, still completely unnecessary if you use Aegis chains.
The straight up healer was mainly designed to be used with OOU + Bone Fiends. Like I said, it requires monk enchantments for the AI to function properly, but it's quite possible I'm getting skewed results (I average a 100-250 life heal every 5-7 seconds with signets inbetween though).
Temporarily dumped the ST for an ER Prot and made an interesting discovery - rather than bind Release Enchantments, it's quite possible just to bind Dwayna's Sorrow and cast it every time it gets consumed. Forcing Dwayna's Sorrow without specifying a target will make your hero cast it on himself (and usually hit the Dervish) - it's unable to auto target minions. Much less micro involved, but it's less reliable than triggering Release directly, (Hero Flee AI can take precedence when being hit by AoEs).
edit: Even easier solution, use a macro keyboard and make a 2 sequence keybind to target the Dervish directly and hit her with it. Live Vicariously works too. Of course, still completely unnecessary if you use Aegis chains.
Julia Gg
No problems with The Dragon's Lair in HM
Arctica
Been testing this team build for a while now.
Managed to do BLA with my dervish with only one party wipe, which is great taking into consideration that I had never been able to do it without 5 or 6 party wipes or a few failures before. And I did not use an MM for it
Then did some Wanted HM stuff with my mesmer. I did some minor changes to the build of the necro and spec'd in curses instead of death magic, using MoP and barbs. Worked like charm. The good thing is that the dervishes can keep ebon sin alive for a relatively long time.
Thank you for the build suggestion. Something totally new and very flexible. I just love it.
Managed to do BLA with my dervish with only one party wipe, which is great taking into consideration that I had never been able to do it without 5 or 6 party wipes or a few failures before. And I did not use an MM for it
Then did some Wanted HM stuff with my mesmer. I did some minor changes to the build of the necro and spec'd in curses instead of death magic, using MoP and barbs. Worked like charm.
The good thing is that the dervishes can keep ebon sin alive for a relatively long time.Thank you for the build suggestion. Something totally new and very flexible. I just love it.
North Devon Dog
I was a bit sceptical but am sold I really like the Dervs.
Didn't really see the point of the rest of the build on my ranger so tried a sword SY spammer with spirit spam and one mesmer. I did some quick testing in the foundry HM and used 3 dervs, dunno why, guess I wasn't expecting much and just went in for fun.
Rooms 1 and 2 running in no strategy- cleared no problem.
Room 3, started to take it seriously, reasonably careful pulls - cleared at least as quick as my normal build. Logged out because of time.
Thanks for the build, I am already trying to think how best to run this. I will say the near constant SY you can get with LB sig makes for great defence but need to test further outside DoA.
Anyway my question. What sort of damage does do the Dervs do. One skill says Holy and one says Earth. Which one wins? I was thinking about what would be the best support character for them. I am assuming things that buff physical won't work on the Dervs due to the change in damage type.
Thanks
EDIT: Just spent the last half hour testing again. Got wiped in both Foundary and City HM. Was actually trying this time. Think I got lucky first time. Even so am gonna change build and test some more, would still like to know about damage type
Didn't really see the point of the rest of the build on my ranger so tried a sword SY spammer with spirit spam and one mesmer. I did some quick testing in the foundry HM and used 3 dervs, dunno why, guess I wasn't expecting much and just went in for fun.
Rooms 1 and 2 running in no strategy- cleared no problem.
Room 3, started to take it seriously, reasonably careful pulls - cleared at least as quick as my normal build. Logged out because of time.
Thanks for the build, I am already trying to think how best to run this. I will say the near constant SY you can get with LB sig makes for great defence but need to test further outside DoA.
Anyway my question. What sort of damage does do the Dervs do. One skill says Holy and one says Earth. Which one wins? I was thinking about what would be the best support character for them. I am assuming things that buff physical won't work on the Dervs due to the change in damage type.
Thanks
EDIT: Just spent the last half hour testing again. Got wiped in both Foundary and City HM. Was actually trying this time. Think I got lucky first time. Even so am gonna change build and test some more, would still like to know about damage type
shaygo
time are irrevelant many pauses
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/2994/gw161.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6190/gw164y.jpg
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5803/gw184p.jpg
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/6269/gw171v.jpg
~3h30 if i add times
well i dont care, just happy i ve cleaned doa with 3 Dervish & 1 paragon !
ps : i ve tried your "super healer" version but it didnt impress
When i deserve failing, i failed, even with 2 or 3 of them
That's really nice ! I guess using SY! helps... I'm playing with my necro so cant use SY!
my main problem is foundry, I've managed to clear all other areas with 7 heros.
it would help if you post the templates, I'll try it tomorrow.
LexTalionis
Foundry is more an issue of careful pulling and target preparation. Other than bad pulling (learn how to use a longbow!) wipes are generally caused by two things: Rage titans and Rage Titans. Rage Titans spawn from Misery Titans, which are much less scary, so I tend to focus fire them down one by one. Complicate is pretty good here.
I mix a pure Dwayna healer with half a single target one for the Foundry, but I think other builds can definitely work, it needs testing. I wouldn't recommend scythes unless you're willing to do a lot of micro to avoid linked pulls, but when I've tried it, Splinter + Earth Shards takes care of huge groups pretty quickly.
@North Devon Dog: It should follow normal stacking rules. First in; First out. AoD + Staggering force in that order would make you do Holy damage > converted> Earth damage in the end.
I'm really glad people are having success with the build (and their own personal variations), and it's definitely improvable. Remember - you don't have to use 2 Dwayna dervishes, sometimes I find 1 is quite enough if you have the strong need for a different elite (like UA). I'd try improving on it more, but lately I've been off on a few other GW testing projects, sorry. Keep it up!
I mix a pure Dwayna healer with half a single target one for the Foundry, but I think other builds can definitely work, it needs testing. I wouldn't recommend scythes unless you're willing to do a lot of micro to avoid linked pulls, but when I've tried it, Splinter + Earth Shards takes care of huge groups pretty quickly.
@North Devon Dog: It should follow normal stacking rules. First in; First out. AoD + Staggering force in that order would make you do Holy damage > converted> Earth damage in the end.
I'm really glad people are having success with the build (and their own personal variations), and it's definitely improvable. Remember - you don't have to use 2 Dwayna dervishes, sometimes I find 1 is quite enough if you have the strong need for a different elite (like UA). I'd try improving on it more, but lately I've been off on a few other GW testing projects, sorry. Keep it up!
North Devon Dog
Thanks for the reply, although I still have some mixed info on what actually buffs certain skills in terms of damage type, for instance Ebon Honour discription is very mis-leading (works really well with 4 physical).
Also with max respect to your comments, I know how to play and pull in Foundary which was why I was amazed when I ran in with a sword thinking the build would fold, and it made room 3 no probs. Lets be clear- when I test I am talking pulling 2 mobs which is why I always test in City and Foundry. First time this build caned foundry like you said, no micro, running in like fool. ( to be fair 1.5 mobs, we had already killed a few when i pulled the 2nd)
Anyway did foundry with 3 derv 1 ranger using an extra splinter on the ST and a necro SoS healer. Took me a bit longer with very careful pulling and spirit placement. Only death was me but then I don't have an extra 100 armour. Had to use 3 clovers.
Also with max respect to your comments, I know how to play and pull in Foundary which was why I was amazed when I ran in with a sword thinking the build would fold, and it made room 3 no probs. Lets be clear- when I test I am talking pulling 2 mobs which is why I always test in City and Foundry. First time this build caned foundry like you said, no micro, running in like fool. ( to be fair 1.5 mobs, we had already killed a few when i pulled the 2nd)
Anyway did foundry with 3 derv 1 ranger using an extra splinter on the ST and a necro SoS healer. Took me a bit longer with very careful pulling and spirit placement. Only death was me but then I don't have an extra 100 armour. Had to use 3 clovers.
LexTalionis
@North Devon Dog: Oh, well, pardon me for assuming. I have all of 2 weeks of experience with the Foundry, to be honest; so you actually have the advantage on me there! (Never stepped into the DoA for 3 years) :P
manddras
Hi guys, i saw that there's a lot of "SY" for dwaynaway but, even if this build is very very effective against everything, i've a big issue with DoA HM (especially foundry, even in nm)
I've an elementalist with some wards but i fail again and again and again. Have you any solutions for primarly casters professions ? Or do i need cons ? (dunno want use cons'...but well...)
I've an elementalist with some wards but i fail again and again and again. Have you any solutions for primarly casters professions ? Or do i need cons ? (dunno want use cons'...but well...)
LexTalionis
It's not very very effective against everything, I never claimed that - just effective on about 95% of the stuff in the game.
There's quite a few things it's weak to, like nasty environmental effects, huge spike damage, AoD being interrupted (Bring Pious Concentration or precast it) and Mallyx. I personally wouldn't use the scythe version of AoD Dervishes in the DoA HM because of the City of Torc'qua and Ravenheart Gloom, for example (though the staff version is still viable).
Save Yourselves users are lucky because Dwaynaway is fantastic when combined with Save Yourselves to completely negate any non armor-ignoring damage on the rest of your team very easily. They can probably largely ignore Rage Titans and other Elementalists. For casters, you'll probably have to pull really really carefully in the DoA HM and rely on careful flagging, good use of Panic and caster disruption. The DoA HM really isn't a place where I can afk through.
I've managed to complete the Foundry, Stygian Veil and Ravenheart Gloom in HM with a Dwayna healer as a primary mesmer, so it's definitely possible, but it might frankly be more trouble than it's worth. If you intend to farm the DoA HM, it'd probably save a lot more time just to reroll a paragon or assassin.
edit: Or maybe you could just try perma Obsidian Flesh tanking? It can't be too different from perma ShadowForm.
There's quite a few things it's weak to, like nasty environmental effects, huge spike damage, AoD being interrupted (Bring Pious Concentration or precast it) and Mallyx. I personally wouldn't use the scythe version of AoD Dervishes in the DoA HM because of the City of Torc'qua and Ravenheart Gloom, for example (though the staff version is still viable).
Save Yourselves users are lucky because Dwaynaway is fantastic when combined with Save Yourselves to completely negate any non armor-ignoring damage on the rest of your team very easily. They can probably largely ignore Rage Titans and other Elementalists. For casters, you'll probably have to pull really really carefully in the DoA HM and rely on careful flagging, good use of Panic and caster disruption. The DoA HM really isn't a place where I can afk through.
I've managed to complete the Foundry, Stygian Veil and Ravenheart Gloom in HM with a Dwayna healer as a primary mesmer, so it's definitely possible, but it might frankly be more trouble than it's worth. If you intend to farm the DoA HM, it'd probably save a lot more time just to reroll a paragon or assassin.
edit: Or maybe you could just try perma Obsidian Flesh tanking? It can't be too different from perma ShadowForm.
Plutoman
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
edit: Or maybe you could just try perma Obsidian Flesh tanking? It can't be too different from perma ShadowForm.
It is, it's not as mobile with all the extra casting times. It can work, but moving the heroes around is most definitely a pain because you have to coordinate heroes while tanking and balling at the same time. It can work, but it takes more effort to be sure.
AcousticMeanie
I've had success running the above along side a very similar Dwayna Orders D/N. Between the two they provide all the healing and protection needed for basic encounters. If Orders aren't necessary a second one of these is an excellent options as is or with slight variations (i.e. Conviction with Draw Conditions).
That combination with a basic dual Mes mid-line allows the player to plug in just about any other 3 hero setup and still be free to bring whatever they want. Similar to your build, I bring a spirit spam setup with my Rit but also have great success running an imba + 3 paragon setup as well.
aspi
time are irrevelant many pauses
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/2994/gw161.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6190/gw164y.jpg
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5803/gw184p.jpg
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/6269/gw171v.jpg
~3h30 if i add times
except mallyx
http://imageshack.us/m/717/1207/gw186e.jpg
wondering how i can kill him with 3 * full enchants char & 2 * full hex
well i dont care, just happy i ve cleaned doa with 3 Dervish & 1 paragon !
ps : i ve tried your "super healer" version but it didnt impress
When i deserve failing, i failed, even with 2 or 3 of them
Nice job, do you mind posting the first ss a bit bigger? My eyes are not so good anymore. thanks.
majoho
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
Just looked at my build after waking up and realised that the SoS Ritualist and MM's secondaries should be swapped. Fall Back! is best on a MM, for obvious reasons.
You mean so your MM can slow you entire group down instead of lagging behind
Personally I was in love with ST at some point but recently I found it not so good, most of the time having two chars with secondary prot skills works just as good (Aegis, Prot. Spirit) in cases where you don't micro Prots works better (which means what you made this build for).
Also this build really needs a char with Dwaynas Kiss and Dwaynas Sorrow especially the last one.
Finally, IF you are using a variant with scythes you'd be better off actually putting points in them, I totally get that the damage isn't supposed to come from the weapon but it's simply stupid NOT to put points in it (and drop wind-prayers).
Personally I was in love with ST at some point but recently I found it not so good, most of the time having two chars with secondary prot skills works just as good (Aegis, Prot. Spirit) in cases where you don't micro Prots works better (which means what you made this build for).
Also this build really needs a char with Dwaynas Kiss and Dwaynas Sorrow especially the last one.
Finally, IF you are using a variant with scythes you'd be better off actually putting points in them, I totally get that the damage isn't supposed to come from the weapon but it's simply stupid NOT to put points in it (and drop wind-prayers).