Summoning stones and gold other gold sinks in GW

In the recent update, the summoning sickness effect has been significantly reduced in lenght, allowing players to "maintain" summons (30 minutes limit vs. 10 minute resummon limit) and replace lost ones more quickly.

In the update thread I pointed out that Anet need to realize that GW needs more actual gold sinks and pointed out that the summoning stones are a good gold sink. A debate started at that point about whether there are enough gold sinks in the game and especially whether gold the Hall of Monuments and GWAMM titles are a gold sink. Since the discussion got a bit complicated and is rather tangential to the update discussion, I started a new theme.

Reposts of messages:

(I hope I got all the posts, if I missed any, tell me and I'll add them)


In a game, players constantly earn gold or whatever the game uses as currency. The concept of a gold sink is a mechanism designed to remove excess currency from the game. In other words, unless money can be spent on something meaningful, people just acquire more and more money, have no need for it and the money grows useless (usually resulting in inflation (actually useful items beginning to cost more and more) and alternate currencies (ectos, SoJs or whatever) or even basic bartering.

At this point I would argue that in GW, there are actually rather few uses for money. Our equipment does not degrade, and we only spend money on items we'll keep forever. Therefore, once you gain the amount of money needed to buy what you want "to gear up", you have very few meaningful ways to spend additional money, and the actual value, usefulness, of money becomes rather low afterwards.

While it may not appear to be so, since many things cost money, they are not acquired by actually removing the money from the game (ie, paying an NPC or something) but rather by transferring that money to other players in exchange for items that those players acquire.

This money stays in the system. It only changed hands, but is still stored and still loses value as there are few things to actually spend it on.


Now, I'll try to offer a list of actual gold sinks in the game:
-summoning stones and craftable consumables. Although most of the cost comes from the cost of materials, the materials are bought for money and that money is gone with the use of the consumable. Plus, they actually cost some money.
-material traders (only for their commission price - the difference in buy and sell prices, the core price stays with the players)
-blue XP scrolls used by title hunters (golds are acquired by players and therefore do not count)
-salvage kits, both via their own cost and item destruction (ID kits actually aren't one, since they increase the value of the drops you ID)
-rune traders, dye traders (only for their commission price, same as material trader)
-FoW and UW entry fees
-9 rings festival game, which DOES actually remove a lot of money, seeing all the AFK guys there.
(I'll add any I miss if you point out any)
-keys and lockpicks

Most others are actually only a one time sink - armor crafters, weapon crafters and so on. While they slow down the problem of currency accumulation, they do only do so temporarily.

OK, wall of text over. At least try to read the bolded points.

Armor crafters are a valid gold sink. The money you pay for your armor (1k or 15k) actually disappears and it goes away. Same goes for Destroyer weapons and any crafted weapon you pay actual money for.

Crafting the armors and weapons also requires materials that disappear.. So if you bought those materials from a mat trader, you actually make the money disappear as well..

Also, consets: 250g and a lot of materials disappear by crafting consets.

You forgot to take into your account that materials you buy and are used disappear, so material traders are a valid gold sink, because more often than not the materials that are bought from said traders are used for various crafted items, be it weapons, armor, consumables etc..

Edit: probably one of the biggest scale gold sinks in the game is currently still running: 9 rings. The tickets you buy and lost disappear and you should end up with a net loss, making money disappear...

Adding 9 rings to list of long term gold sink.

Armors, while indeed a sink, are a one-time sink, since the armor stays put once you get it. So, it acts like a buffer for the first 100-200k, but not beyond that point.

I don't mind gold-sinks I just prefer ones that don't affect game-play, I would personally rather see that summons, consumables and such didn't exist in the game.

This is true, once an armor is purchased, one will not be inclined to spent more money on the same armor. Therefore, if a player has purchased all armors (desired), they will not spend anymore money on armors, and gold will pile up.

I would like to point out that material traders are in fact a gold sink. While redistrubiting the materials amongst players, they take a small amount of gold for themselves. While they are not a very significant gold sink, they are in fact, a gold sink. Aside from that, no one has mentioned Guild Hall NPC, which is are fair gold sink, but also a buffer sink. Then there is Guild Invitations and Guest Invitations, which actually add up, particulary in PvP. But since Guild Wars PvP is rather dead, these amounts are also neglible.


I agree with this. Besides, ArenaNet promotes Guild Wars as 'anti-grind', any grind for consumables, however small, would be against their ideas.
I would prefer a good gold sink that does effect gameplay directly. (i.d. cosmetics or such, or even nine rings)

Any ideas for a gold sink that doesn't affect gameplay?

It needs to be:
-temporary in nature (otherwise we only get a new buffer sink)
-attractive enought that people will be willing to pay for it

I mean, people obviously do buy consets, because they do affect gameplay. And they use them, so new consumables would at least be sure to get bought. I'm not sure they'd go for purely cosmetic ones, at least not enough that they'd be willing to spend a lot of money on them. (don't get me wrong, I just can't think of any cosmetic ones that people would go for, I'd love for them to exist).

could argue that you dont have to grind at all for consumables as the only time they are "needed" is on speed clears which is not really part of normal game play, if you put any spare materials/money into consumables then that would make it nulled.

Emotes that you had to pay for in game might be attractive to players but i dont think it would be possible to work that into the game.

I think a lot of the costumes should have been for ingame money not from the store but thats anet needing money

with a game like guild wars i could see a lot of people going for cosmetic ones. With a trader in game it could turn into a HUGE sink. you can tell people would go for it just by the amount of people that purchase the costumes.

they could always release a new set of gold weapons, that can only be bought through certain npcs. release some unique skins and make them non tradeable. have about 3 sets, one set for tyrian, canth and elona.

charge 10-20k per weapon. this would be a huge gold sink considering the 7 hero teams now. and you could easily go buy gold max weaps for your heroes this way. customize the weaps how you want etc. instead of just placing crappy greens on your heroes that you dont really want.

this means you dont have to spend mass amounts on gold weaps for your heroes, but 10k-20k for a gold weap your heroes might use is an easy way to create a gold sink.

of course the weaps would be max stats and you would have to add the mods.

What about dedicating mini's, doesn't this effectively remove money from the game?

I buy a mini ghostly hero for 1750e, dedicate it and resell it for 1000e.. that's 750e removed (or am I missing something here? :3)

Yeah but at the end of the day we already have weapon traders in EOTN that give max weapons with an inscription slot for 5k + some materials. Don't get me wrong I'd like some new skins but 5k for heros weapons > 10k for hero weapons.


you didnt buy the GH from a trader. It simply went to another player therefore it wasn't removed from the game. It simply removed an undedicated ghostly from the game.
When the original GH was obtained it didnt make 1750e appear in the economy. It just meant that someone would pay 1750e for it.

but they would be unique gold skins for each campaign. also, no mats involved. just pure cash.

if i could go and buy a gold weap, no hassle of clicking at the mat trader for 10 of something when i need 200 or whatever, i easily would over a blue skin that looks like some other peice of junk.

and again, with 7 hero teams, and merc heros and all that kind of stuff, i imagine many players would mind dropping around 10-20k for a weap if its easily accessible, gold and unique

It devalues the item, but doesn't remove the currency, only moves it around. Or, to flog the point -

Initial condition: You: 1750 e
Original Seller: Unded Mini
Guy you will Sell to : 1000e

After 1st trade and ded: You: ded mini
Original Seller: 1750 e
Guy you will sell to: 1000 e

After you resell the ded: You: 1000 e
Original seller: 1750 e
Guy you will sell to: Ded mini

That doesn't take any currency completely out of the game which is what gold sink means - what you are describing is a simple trade, the ectos are still in the game.

How about those shrines outside of every outpost? If you /kneel there, a random God will pop up; Dwayna/Balthazar/Me, and charge 200 gold for buffs? :O. IMO ANet should raise the costs of these buffs (since they can really help in hardmode), and should make these buffs more noticeable since 95% of the players that enters an area will just walk past the shrines lol.

ANet should make these God's auto pop-up since most players just walk towards a shrine to collect a bounty. Without realising that there is a little God hiding underneath that little platform, gladly willing to help you out!

When these God's will be auto pop-ed people will become more curious what that NPC is doing there. Whilst walking there and talking to them they will be offered a buff = goldsink = yay = ??? = profit!

New high end high res armours would be a nice gold sink imo.

Having a weapon mod trader that works similar to the material and rune traders would be nice. They could remove money in the same way that other traders do.

Please also consider the effort needed to implement a suggestion.

Summoning stone: just implement rule wise, since the model is already in the game, and the item icon just needs to be recoloured.

Consumable: implement rule wise, but needs an additional inventory and effect icon

New weapon: needs new concept art and a new 3D model, plus it's rather limited by the profession (has no one thought a bit about why Kerrsh's staff and hourglass staff are programmed as they are?). And it's again a "buffer" sink - once you get the weapon, you're done spending money.

New costume: there's a reason why Anet haven't made any free costumes, you know. There's a lot of work making even a single skin fit all professions, what with all the clipping and stuff. Plus, buffer sink only.


EDIT:
Got a few ideas...

Avatar summoning stone - a permanent item that summons avatars of all the 5 deities to wherever you are. These then offer the standard shrine-summoned blessings, but at a higher price. reasoning: minimum work needed, since the avatars and all interfaces are already in the game, and the effects are already preprogrammed and balanced. All you get is convenient access to them.

Bless weapon - essentially a new weapon skin - take a few popular weapon skins, and apply the chaos effect to them (ie, the white glow - seems EVERYBODY likes it, considering the number of people running around with chaos gloves...). Then, make a consumable that essentially remakes your weapon as a chaos weapon, possibly adding a minor consumable effect. The weapon skin replacement mechanic already exists in the game - the weapon spells replace weapon appearance and apply an effect.

Transformation tonic: a tonic that not only changes appearance but also grants a new skill bar. Like entering a siege devourer or similar. The replaced skill bar can be pre-balanced and avoid too troublesome balance issues. Of course, one use, as ever.

An idea I had was "Instant watch tower". Take a nice watch tower model from the game, I'm sure there's some around, and make a consumable that changes you into one. You are made stationary (100% movement reduction rate should work) granting you powerful defensive bonuses and maybe a strong offensive skill (siege attack, maybe? we got those already), until you use a "leave tower" skill (or until the timer runs out). It could be powerful, but also not render PvE too easy as the ability to deal with an enemy group would be balanced by the forced delay.

(and of course - make all those bloody things available for GOLD. NOTHING that Anet has added in a looong time costs any gold...)

Sell title points for gold. The ratio of points to gold spent can differ between the titles but you get the drift. Even if you make kurzick/luxon 1g/pt, you would still need to sink 10 MILLION gold to max ONE title. Most of the Eye of the North titles are 160,000 points to max times 4 titles times 8 characters equals 5.12 MILLION points. Thats a lot for one account.

I scanned through here and didn't see one mentioned: Chest running!

I know I can blow through 100k in one day easily. Obviously the gold sink = cost of keys/picks - junk item sell price to merch. Obtaining quality items that sell to players does not factor into it because that is simply redistribution. As all runners know, it's gambling, but when you win you are getting money from other players and not the house.

Personally, I'd like to see the creation of an 'instance' with random enemy spawns (placement and type), environmental effects (remove enchants, cripple, etc ) and chests, where the chests had small chances to drop some of the items since 'lost' to the good ol' days...thinking r7/8s, inherent crys, swamp clubs, etc. While it should be able to be accessed by parties, I would suggest players could not do any dmg to NPCs, making it a true chest-running environment.

A year-long boardwalk-type place with an entrance fee would be a good gold sink. 1k to get in for an hour (or however long), giving access to solo or small team mini games (not necessarily dragon arena, costume brawl and rings, to keep these ones special) that cost xyz gold to play and reward a few gamer points or kurz/lux points or whatever (but not gold or items). This would obviously take programming time and resources, but I'd be interested in this and maybe it could be a tester for the mingames in GW2.

Keys and locks added to the list.

elite skills removed a lot of my money out of the game

Maybe they could consider adding more gift boxes similar to the boardwalk prize boxes in that you can get them with gold, but designed a little more like Nick's gifts and the royal gifts, in that they have a really small chance of giving you various rare things.

Add title for having ALL skills unlocked on single character. 1mil per title hunter would be sunk pretty much overnight.

I don't quite understand how anyone can think there's not enough in the way of gold sinks when there's actually been deflation over the past while.

There also seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding with material and other traders, who actually have their own stock that slowly recharges.

No. There has been a market saturation, which left only the rarest items marketable at all.

Why, would when I start talking about apples, you jump in and go: "but we need to know this about oranges!".

You'll note that I did not speculate on a reason for deflation, only noted the fact that deflation is happening. That is because the reason it is happening does not matter, only the fact that it is happening. And why, if deflation is already happening, would you be insistent about implementing some new things that would make deflation happen even faster?

If you think market saturation is a problem, find a solution that addresses that problem. Don't try to apply a fix to an unrelated (or at least uncausative) issue and expect it to make the problem you just stated go away.

Since we like font tags.

There is no over-inflation.
Thus, GW has ENOUGH gold sinks.

Irrelevant is the fact thatALL NPC traders/merchants are gold sinks.

Sorry, I disagree. I have had over 500K (Usually float between 700-800K) for at least 2 years now. Whenever I get to around 800-900K, I buy 100 lockpicks, a new armor set, or give it to my wife for HER titles. Once I max my TH title, I won't buy near as many lockpicks.

Now, you COULD say, "Then buy minis or rare weapons from players". However, those are not gold sinks: that is moving gold from one account to another.

Also, merchants are only gold sinks when you buy something from them. However, they generate much more gold than they remove from the game.

As the game gets older, there is going to be a need to do something about the gold floating in the economy. Otherwise, it becomes as worthless as exp. points!

Only, right now, we're in deflation. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist!

Deflation of what?

Of things that aren't traded in gold/platinum? Of items that can keep being produced and there are more available with each day?

Sorry, I'm not trying to solve ANYTHING. What the market is or isn't in is immaterial: Those are prices for items that players are buying/selling. The developers do not NEED to get involved in THAT market: it is entirely player-generated. Gold sinks are things the delelopers place in the game to REMOVE gold from the game. I'm not saying lack of gold sinks is a problem, per se. I AM saying it would be nice to have other things to spend the money ON.

A broken Lockpick disappears from the game yes, but most or all Lockpicks that r sold by players r dropped ones.
If i buy Lockpicks, gold changes player, doesnt disappear.
That u may break a lockpick is not relevant to that.
So, i am thinking buying lockpicks is NOT a gold sick.
(Unless u buy them in large quantities from the merchant....)

Wanted to mention, that i doubt (but correct me if wrong) that craftable summoning stones is really a gold sink.
Technically yes, BUT they cost 1k, 1 skill point and craft mats.
To me that does NOT look appealing, even after the summoning sickness decrease.
To make them more appealing and a gold sink, they should only have a gold requirement.
Obviously, the price should be high enough to be a usefull money sink, but also low enough to be appealing.

An idea for a money sink; not free costumes, but (other) ones that u can buy with ingame gold.

Um, nope. Sorry, but that's simply not true. Their stock comes from, and ONLY from, things that players sell to them. It does not "slowly recharge".

No. Ever seen people selling 100 lockpicks for 80k in Kamadan? Those are bought from these guys and sold for a tiny profit by the people who were able to buy them for 1,2k each.
Which is exactly what is happening.

YES they are.

Just because you buy them from other players doesn't mean that everyone does.

For the most part Lockpicks ARE a goldsink.

Aah, those merchants, forgot about them.

Yes, gold payed to those vanishes from the game.
Yep, good gold sink then.

I use a basket of ectoplasm, armbraces, alcohol, sweets, and a few other items to track inflation.

Yes, the whole point of a gold sink is to remove money from the game. What's the point of removing money from the game? If it isn't to provide downward pressure on prices, I don't see what the point is.

If you're just looking for more content (that's what I seem to be gathering), there are ways to do that that don't involve gold sinks.

I guarantee you that more superior vigor runes get bought from the rune trader then get sold to it by players.

Do you actually have any calculations to support that thesis?

From my experience, prices do not go down so much as people simply see that what they have would be more of a hassle to sell to a player than to merchant and the result is that people simply don't sell things any more. Fewer and fewer items, or rather types of items, are offered for sale.

Also, we must remember to keep the relative value of gold in mind. We earn gold much more quickly these days due to the Zaishen, WiK bounties, Keiran missions and similar.

I didn't keep track of specifics in an Excel spreadsheet if that's what your asking, but I do notice the mean.

4 months ago: armbrace ask attempts at 23e
Now: Attempts between 21e and 20e

4 months ago: Ecto sales hovering around 7.5k for one (easy to both buy and sell that), 13/100k.
1 month ago: Easy to buy 14/100k.
Now: Easy to buy down below 7k.
(Don't expect the < 7k price to stick, this is probably due to a sudden flood of ecto supply thanks to the past two weeks of events).

Alcohol/Sweets: No appreciable change as far as I can tell.

This has to do with liquidity, not inflation or deflation, and is not really related to the supply of gold.