a change to underworld - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Bright Star Shine

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2009

Belgium

Club of a Thousand Pandas [LOD???]

E/

16 May 2011 at 14:44 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

I would love it if UW quest completion was persistent, even if Chamber was required each run. Speed clearing is already so much more efficient (and less expensive) than rezoning in order to use specialized builds for different quests that I don't really believe the area will become much more farmable, just less of a pain to complete the whole thing. It is somewhat telling that you don't hear anyone calling for DoA or Slaver's to be switched to the UW's pita format.

Yes, but the thing they did with DoA is encourage people to do it in one go. You get a bigger reward if you do so, so doing it one area at a time is actually less productive. Also, each area in DoA is tough enough on itself and has a big enough variety of mobs. In UW, doing plains would be: "Bring nothing but caster hate" whilst Wrathful Spirits would be "bring heavy ench removal" and Mountains would be "bring heavy interrupts and melee hate" etc etc. Even if you have to repeat chamber every time, it would still be too abusive.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

16 May 2011 at 16:12 - 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arm

why split uw up to make it easier?

People want to split up UW to make the time investment more sane. Making it easier is a side effect.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

16 May 2011 at 16:27 - 163

I understand it takes a lot of time and skill to expedite runs through elite content, and I respect the dedication and effort of players willing to invest time and effort. However, the problem I have with UW as an elite area is that it's not really about the technical challenge, it's the stress of either being forced to stretch your builds to work everywhere (and lose hours of your life) or being forced into splitting (the opposite of what a team game should be about).

That's not elite IMO, that's cruelly using the game to our disadvantage. The skill/AI of the enemies can only go so far; team tactics/power creep runs it over every time. What we end up with is a cheap way to give the illusion of difficulty, similar to the old NES games that give limited lives, no continues and force you to play through content you've already beaten to death just to make it to the harder levels, only to die and have to start all over.

The more I read, the more tiring it is to look for a solution. It's just sad that end-game isn't about the content, but the drops. If elite means self-torture and sinking more time than any gamer should be reasonably expected to invest in one sitting, I don't want to be elite. You guys have at it.

I just want to see Dhuum.

Godess Charmaine

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2010

Deth

Mo/

16 May 2011 at 16:55 - 164

Thank you for getting this thread back on track.

As I have stated dont care about the sf or sc argument.

Uw was nerfed to slow done obvious abuse of scing we all know this.NEWS FLASH who cares, they revampted things and are still scing it without much diffculty.

So keep the content the way it is cept if you decide to go in alone for agument you have the opton of chosing a differnt path to the end.

You would get the opton of save progress so after you have cleared an area and restored the keeper you can save your progress, but not reset the area if you leave. you the renter at that locaton with everything the same.

That way there would be no results from farming an area once you have killed something its dead untill you have completed the entire thing.

lets face it the elete guys dont want normal ppl farming there uw so they get to keep all the goddies to show off, and thats what half the arguments are about, If everyone could farm ectos like they use to farm plains ecto prices would drop again ONO.and heaven help if we could all farm dhurm easly.

so take the farm opton completely out of the equation untill the entire quest chain is done everything that is killed stayes killedIE NO FARMING.ohh but that might bugger the elete guys farming plains again silly me

OHH AND NEWS FLASH GW2 is coming out so when it does do you really think ectos will be worth anything.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

16 May 2011 at 17:13 - 165

TBH, I have a hard time believing that any group capable of 4 horsemen would be at all fazed by anything else in UW. If you beat 4H, you have beaten UW, everything else is a formality (including Dhuum, who is an absolute laughing stock of a boss). I don't think overall difficulty is going to go down much by letting quests persist, Pubs will simply lose less progress when they fail at 4H because they are stupid and not doing it first.

Still, you could allay the concerns of making it "too easy" and pub group forming problems by combining it into different areas. e.g., 4 horsemen, imprisoned spirits and terrorweb queen get thrown into a "quest group" together. You only get credit for the 3 if you complete them all at once. Make 2 more groups, UW is effectively split into 3 parts which means even a fairly slow player need not spend more than 30-45 mins per section. And if someone wants to group together, you don't need to do an exhaustive quest list questioning, just say "Need part 1/3 of UW + Dhuum" or w/e.

Saldonus Darkholme

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2009

Helping Hand of Ascalon (HAND)

N/Mo

16 May 2011 at 17:52 - 166

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Yes, but the thing they did with DoA is encourage people to do it in one go. You get a bigger reward if you do so, so doing it one area at a time is actually less productive. Also, each area in DoA is tough enough on itself and has a big enough variety of mobs. In UW, doing plains would be: "Bring nothing but caster hate" whilst Wrathful Spirits would be "bring heavy ench removal" and Mountains would be "bring heavy interrupts and melee hate" etc etc. Even if you have to repeat chamber every time, it would still be too abusive.

As opposed to, "Bring SF, done"?

You're arguing, "This area is being abused like crazy. If you change it it'll be abused like crazy."

This is the Ursan argument all over again! I can't believe I'm saying this, but SF DOES need a nerfing. If for no other reason, just to fit into the lore/story mechanic: Assassins weren't originally designed to be able to willingly aggro the entire map and stand there like a practice dummy, not taking any damage. They were supposed to rely on stealth, thus the shadowstepping.

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

16 May 2011 at 17:56 - 167

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Yes, but the thing they did with DoA is encourage people to do it in one go. You get a bigger reward if you do so, so doing it one area at a time is actually less productive. Also, each area in DoA is tough enough on itself and has a big enough variety of mobs. In UW, doing plains would be: "Bring nothing but caster hate" whilst Wrathful Spirits would be "bring heavy ench removal" and Mountains would be "bring heavy interrupts and melee hate" etc etc. Even if you have to repeat chamber every time, it would still be too abusive.

You still would get a bigger reward if you did it all in one go, because you pay a fee every time you want to go in. The guy who does UW all in one go has paid 7k less than the guy who goes in 8 different times to finish it. Furthermore, in the situation you describe, where the player just farms one area over and over again, they're never going to get the end chest, which is where the real money is made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Still, you could allay the concerns of making it "too easy" and pub group forming problems by combining it into different areas. e.g., 4 horsemen, imprisoned spirits and terrorweb queen get thrown into a "quest group" together. You only get credit for the 3 if you complete them all at once. Make 2 more groups, UW is effectively split into 3 parts which means even a fairly slow player need not spend more than 30-45 mins per section. And if someone wants to group together, you don't need to do an exhaustive quest list questioning, just say "Need part 1/3 of UW + Dhuum" or w/e.

I would love this.

Bright Star Shine

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2009

Belgium

Club of a Thousand Pandas [LOD???]

E/

16 May 2011 at 18:20 - 168

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

You still would get a bigger reward if you did it all in one go, because you pay a fee every time you want to go in. The guy who does UW all in one go has paid 7k less than the guy who goes in 8 different times to finish it. Furthermore, in the situation you describe, where the player just farms one area over and over again, they're never going to get the end chest, which is where the real money is made.

Omg! I have to pay 7,000 more gold to get this done! Are you kidding me? 7k? That's the big difference?

I'm really getting fed up with people saying "SF makes you a god, and you'll never die." Whilst I'm pretty sure a lot of those people would die quite fast when trying to do some of the SCs. If SF makes you so godlike, why do so many people still fail when using it? hurrdurr. In the right hands, yes, it's a god skill, in the hands of casual players (you know, those people that make up the biggest part of this game) it usually results in failure.

Saldonus Darkholme

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2009

Helping Hand of Ascalon (HAND)

N/Mo

16 May 2011 at 18:25 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

In the right hands, yes, it's a god skill, in the hands of casual players (you know, those people that make up the biggest part of this game) it usually results in failure.

Then why should ANEt cater to YOU, as opposed to, "those people that make up the biggest part of the game"?

Bright Star Shine

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2009

Belgium

Club of a Thousand Pandas [LOD???]

E/

16 May 2011 at 18:31 - 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saldonus Darkholme

Then why should ANEt cater to YOU, as opposed to, "those people that make up the biggest part of the game"?

I don't say they should. Anet can do whatever the hell they like if you ask me. If you reread my post, you'll see that I was ranting at players that bitch about the skill. I don't care which side Anet picks, because, on the end of the day, us, the SC'ers will still have found a way to clear an area as fast as we can.

Voodoo Rage

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sacramento, CA

Geezers

R/

16 May 2011 at 18:46 - 171

The general mobs in the Underworld seem massively easier than DoA. I'm able to take a solo rit and pretty much clear the place. I took a full team into the Foundry yesterday and got my ass blown out of the water. Again, I'm not really experienced with the quests themselves but it seems like the difficulty must be the nature of the quests and not clearing the mobs to get to the quests. From people who do Underworld runs, what really makes this place "elite"? From just looking at the quest descriptions it looks like a whole bunch of running around and facing gimmicky quest instances where you need to know exactly what to do or some NPC is going to get killed and you get booted out of the whole thing. That doesn't seem "elite" to me, just tedious. DoA seems elite.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

16 May 2011 at 18:49 - 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I'm really getting fed up with people saying "SF makes you a god, and you'll never die." Whilst I'm pretty sure a lot of those people would die quite fast when trying to do some of the SCs. If SF makes you so godlike, why do so many people still fail when using it? hurrdurr. In the right hands, yes, it's a god skill, in the hands of casual players (you know, those people that make up the biggest part of this game) it usually results in failure.

Pff, bullshit. Here is a timeline of my UW SCing as an assassin:

1. Checked pvx wiki. Took 5 mins.
2. Watched youtube. Took 15 mins.
3. Went to ToA, found a group. BSed them that the reason I didn't have their stupid stones was because my account was hacked (lulz). Took 30 mins.
4. Group fails first time because E/Mo fell asleep I think. Player kicked (obviously).
5. Group finishes second time attempt flawlessly. 3rd attempt too. Not a single word in chat about me being inexperienced.

So, absolutely 0 experience running a shadow form assassin ANYWHERE + 20 mins of research = able to run a SF sin in SC. Its a really easy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing build to run, sorry. The difficulty is not being bored to death to the point where you forget to reactivate invincibility mode before it runs out. Thats the true reason people fail, because its so damn easy that they get overconfident and aren't paying attention. If I had to do a SC again I would probably be trying to find ways to multitask to alleviate the boredom and die every so often too.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

16 May 2011 at 19:02 - 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

...where the player just farms one area over and over again, they're never going to get the end chest, which is where the real money is made.

No. Ecto flirted with 3k once precisely because people were farming an area over and over again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

...it seems like the difficulty must be the nature of the quests and not clearing the mobs to get to the quests.

NPCs are easily overwhelmed and the way the mobs spawn during a couple of the more challenging quests you need to snare them or split to stand a chance. If they removed the pincer attack used down there during those I'm sure the success rate would go way up.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

16 May 2011 at 19:16 - 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

The general mobs in the Underworld seem massively easier than DoA. I'm able to take a solo rit and pretty much clear the place. I took a full team into the Foundry yesterday and got my ass blown out of the water. Again, I'm not really experienced with the quests themselves but it seems like the difficulty must be the nature of the quests and not clearing the mobs to get to the quests. From people who do Underworld runs, what really makes this place "elite"? From just looking at the quest descriptions it looks like a whole bunch of running around and facing gimmicky quest instances where you need to know exactly what to do or some NPC is going to get killed and you get booted out of the whole thing. That doesn't seem "elite" to me, just tedious. DoA seems elite.

4 Horsemen: 4 groups of AoE nukers (fire eles/PB mesmers) come at you simultaneously from two sides, and you have to protect a fairly vulnerable NPC from dieing or you lose. Doing it without gimmick tanks is essentially the hardest thing in PvE at the moment.

You are right though, everything else in UW is basically a tedious mess. The only things you need to know for the other quests is "don't take them if you aren't ready" and "have party stand at X location where enemies spawn to prevent them from killing NPCs" for a few. Then there are quests like Demon Assassin and Wrathful Spirits, which are an absolute joke that blind, deaf and dumb players with henchmen (not heroes) could easily finish. The whole area could use an overhaul, Anet doesn't care.

Bright Star Shine

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2009

Belgium

Club of a Thousand Pandas [LOD???]

E/

16 May 2011 at 19:34 - 175

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Pff, bullshit. Here is a timeline of my UW SCing as an assassin:

1. Checked pvx wiki. Took 5 mins.
2. Watched youtube. Took 15 mins.
3. Went to ToA, found a group. BSed them that the reason I didn't have their stupid stones was because my account was hacked (lulz). Took 30 mins.
4. Group fails first time because E/Mo fell asleep I think. Player kicked (obviously).
5. Group finishes second time attempt flawlessly. 3rd attempt too. Not a single word in chat about me being inexperienced.

So, absolutely 0 experience running a shadow form assassin ANYWHERE + 20 mins of research = able to run a SF sin in SC. Its a really easy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing build to run, sorry. The difficulty is not being bored to death to the point where you forget to reactivate invincibility mode before it runs out. Thats the true reason people fail, because its so damn easy that they get overconfident and aren't paying attention. If I had to do a SC again I would probably be trying to find ways to multitask to alleviate the boredom and die every so often too.

Ha! And you say that SC'ers have too much epeen? I don't believe you for one instant, for more than obvious reasons. I have to agree that it's easy, and if you have done it once or twice you should be able to do it again, but the way you describe it sound like more than a load of BS to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Doing it without gimmick tanks is essentially the hardest thing in PvE at the moment.

You do realize that back in the day, when "super cool and elite" balanced ways would do UW, you would have 2 obby tanks generally who would tank shit when the rest of the team spikes (this sounds somewhat familiar, don't you think?) The ONLY difference that is between UW now and in '06 is that now the teams would split and do quests on their own. Back then you would have OF tanks tanking stuff and a team spiking it, the team wouldn't split up, that's the ONLY difference. So your "gimmicky tanks" existed in the long gone days you keep bitching about that were so great.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

16 May 2011 at 19:48 - 176

Quote:

Ha! And you say that SC'ers have too much epeen? I don't believe you for one instant, for more than obvious reasons. I have to agree that it's easy, and if you have done it once or twice you should be able to do it again, but the way you describe it sound like more than a load of BS to me.

Keep telling yourself what you like. I'll line you up right next to person who today assured me that their pro discord team was an advanced and complex build that took a lot of skill to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

You do realize that back in the day, when "super cool and elite" balanced ways would do UW, you would have 2 obby tanks generally who would tank shit when the rest of the team spikes (this sounds somewhat familiar, don't you think?) The ONLY difference that is between UW now and in '06 is that now the teams would split and do quests on their own. Back then you would have OF tanks tanking stuff and a team spiking it, the team wouldn't split up, that's the ONLY difference. So your "gimmicky tanks" existed in the long gone days you keep bitching about that were so great.

Did anyone ever imply that UW was a well balanced area in the past? No? Doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

Bright Star Shine

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2009

Belgium

Club of a Thousand Pandas [LOD???]

E/

17 May 2011 at 02:48 - 177

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Did anyone ever imply that UW was a well balanced area in the past? No? Doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

Well, I keep hearing people say that UW and all this game for that matter should be done balanced way, and that SCs have raped the game in its nostrils and whatnot. But some seem to fail to grasp that back in the day, what was done, was the fastest way to do it, hence why they did it. It was semi balanced in such a way that you would always have 2 tanks making a solid wall and a spiker team. Also a monk bonder with Life Barrier and Life Bond usually. That was the old SC, nothing more, nothing less. Just because skills now allow us to do it about 4 times faster doesn't mean that it's bad, it's the natural way of things..

Godess Charmaine

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2010

Deth

Mo/

17 May 2011 at 03:47 - 178

I will back Bright star shine, he, she has not said uw shouldnt be nerfed to allow finishing and the concept in this tread isnt about sc its about the time normal casuall players take to finish uw.

Stop going on about sc it isnt the problem now and has never been, its been around since day one that argument with either one build or another.its about making an area acessabel to all players now. some of us dont have massive time to spend 3 hrs clearing uw.NOTE we are the ones who are not interested in ecto farming or raping end boss for high treasure, we simply wantto finish the area buy doing every little bit of it.

Kill All Leave noone standing, thats more of a fun challenge to some of us then running thru an area in 30 mins to rape a boss and go woho look at me your all crap players.The game and areas where designed to be explored and its fun to do so.

All of you are on a sf /sc bash and if you cant crasp my point that most of us dont care about your liitle GOD complexes and we just enjoy the Game and would like to finish the one area you all have abused for 6 years with one gimic build or another and have made it harder then it was designed because of that. ITS A GAME you have changed it thru abuse now lets change it thru logical anayasis then worying about all your ego bs.

ps srry mods if its a little aggro pleas feel free to edit, cant belive some of these kidds

cheers

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

17 May 2011 at 03:54 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

4 Horsemen: 4 groups of AoE nukers (fire eles/PB mesmers) come at you simultaneously from two sides, and you have to protect a fairly vulnerable NPC from dieing or you lose. Doing it without gimmick tanks is essentially the hardest thing in PvE at the moment.

You are right though, everything else in UW is basically a tedious mess. The only things you need to know for the other quests is "don't take them if you aren't ready" and "have party stand at X location where enemies spawn to prevent them from killing NPCs" for a few. Then there are quests like Demon Assassin and Wrathful Spirits, which are an absolute joke that blind, deaf and dumb players with henchmen (not heroes) could easily finish. The whole area could use an overhaul, Anet doesn't care.

Servants of Grenth can be quite nasty for us non-invinci types -- if you can't kill fast enough, you end up with a thousand dryders on your head. Imprisoned Spirits is hard if you don't know the split or have to rely on heroes. Unwanted Guests is a lot harder when the Attaxe can actually hurt you. Dhuum hits really hard against non-gimmick groups. 4H is 4H. The rest are pretty easy.

Oh, and Wrathful Spirits used to be harder when the goal was to protect the friendly spirits. It was changed to respawning bunches of enemy spirits just to make it take longer for SC groups to finish the quest.

Elnino

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2008

In a house

Proof Of A Nets Laziness[HB]

A/W

17 May 2011 at 04:35 - 180

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

but the way you describe it sound like more than a load of BS to me

Please tell us what is so hard about wathcing a skill recharging and using it when it runs out? To me, it's no different to maintaining an attunement, or is there a few more layers of depth required? Like, using it before you engage a mob(duh)? Cast SF on an enchant set(duh)?

Quote:

Well, I keep hearing people say that UW and all this game for that matter should be done balanced way

No. People are saying that UW should be completable with balanced way and that there should be a healthy mix of efficient builds that can complete UW. There should never only be one build (and it's variants) that is significantly more effective than all other possibilities (including balanced way). All builds should be equal in overall strength and weakness.

Quote:

SCs have raped the game in its nostrils

Well, they have definately killed the balance (not balanced builds) that was supposed to be present in this game.

Quote:

Just because skills now allow us to do it about 4 times faster doesn't mean that it's bad, it's the natural way of things..

Nothing is natural about the unnecessary and regretable buffs to certain skills in this game.

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

17 May 2011 at 07:40 - 181

Are people doing to understand it's conset + bonus items that makes you " godlike" or ..??
SF alone is a joke really , it just becomes OP when you have a few items such as essence of celerity on you....

Some players who don't get it should just really try the following :
- try UW/DoA HM with random heroes + 1-2 healer heroes... You probably either get rolled fast either take an hour to do an area
- try the same with using a conset... Surprisingly, noone from your team is dying whereas you can aggro whole map.....

Also pretty sure that a team of 8 paragons( with correct builds) using consets should be able to finish UW in an hour or so....

Bright Star Shine

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2009

Belgium

Club of a Thousand Pandas [LOD???]

E/

17 May 2011 at 10:23 - 182

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

No. People are saying that UW should be completable with balanced way and that there should be a healthy mix of efficient builds that can complete UW. There should never only be one build (and it's variants) that is significantly more effective than all other possibilities (including balanced way). All builds should be equal in overall strength and weakness. Well, they have definately killed the balance (not balanced builds) that was supposed to be present in this game.

There are, and plenty. Back when our guild was in the YUM alliance, they used to run a build called YUMway, which only used like 2 terras to do mnts and pools I think and some other stuff, and the rest was done by the main team, which consisted out of dervishes and whatnot to scythe down stuff. They did regular runs of 55mins-1h10. They still do and their build is pretty effective I hear..

darktyco

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2006

17 May 2011 at 13:31 - 183

Again, the issue isn't sc or having totally balanced team builds. It is about giving people without such a huge chunk of time the ability to actually clear the area. I have completed DoA several times, with people and with 7 heroes, but rarely ever in a full run because of time constraints. I actually wouldn't care if the mobs were made more difficult to balance this out, difficulty isn't the issue in the first place (other than the gimmick quest difficulty others have noted).

Bellatrixa

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2010

Under a blanket drinking tea and being British n_n

Brothers of Other Mother [BoOM]

N/

17 May 2011 at 13:59 - 184

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

There are, and plenty. Back when our guild was in the YUM alliance, they used to run a build called YUMway, which only used like 2 terras to do mnts and pools I think and some other stuff, and the rest was done by the main team, which consisted out of dervishes and whatnot to scythe down stuff. They did regular runs of 55mins-1h10. They still do and their build is pretty effective I hear..

Correct. The builds have changed slightly and are constantly being worked on and improved but yes. The builds are not mine to share however therefore I don't go against wishes and post em on PvX. I believe ToA also have their own version of UWSC as well.

It's not all terraway, that's just what all the pugs will run.

An hour of my time to clear an elite area is reasonable to me. Before I started doing YUMways in my ally, I found 2.5-3 hours reasonable for UW considering the value of the items therein.

I really don't understand why this is suddenly a huge issue. Did people run out of other things to complain about?

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

17 May 2011 at 16:21 - 185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellatrixa

/snip

See the post below (again, if applicable).

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

Again, the issue isn't sc or having totally balanced team builds. It is about giving people without such a huge chunk of time the ability to actually clear the area.

I actually wouldn't care if the mobs were made more difficult to balance this out, difficulty isn't the issue in the first place (other than the gimmick quest difficulty others have noted).

This is the raw deal you get with UW: tedious challenges that have slim margin for error, for a small chance at moderately valuable items and a very tiny chance at rare items with a very real threat of failure, triggered by more than your own deaths.

Two to three hours is not only a significant portion of the day to play in one area, it's damn downright unhealthy (evidenced by the convenient break reminders). All for loot opportunity? Astoundingly bad game design. No area should require multiple breaks without so much as your Internet connection dropping, and that's before adding in the complexity and stress of trying to hold together your group of fellow zombies at their own computers for the entire period of time. With respect, that is what's unreasonable.

Bellatrixa

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2010

Under a blanket drinking tea and being British n_n

Brothers of Other Mother [BoOM]

N/

17 May 2011 at 16:57 - 186

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Two to three hours is not only a significant portion of the day to play in one area, it's damn downright unhealthy (evidenced by the convenient break reminders). All for loot opportunity? Astoundingly bad game design. No area should require multiple breaks without so much as your Internet connection dropping, and that's before adding in the complexity and stress of trying to hold together your group of fellow zombies at their own computers for the entire period of time. With respect, that is what's unreasonable.

Ok, the way I see it is like this:

There are methods for clearing UW in HM in a small amount of time (1 hour for an elite area being perfectly reasonable to me). It's up to people whether they use those methods or something that takes considerably longer. I could decide to vanquish Morostav Trail via MTSC and take 20 mins OR take a group of heroes with bar bars and take the best part of an hour.

There is nothing forcing you to do UW in HM for HoM. There is nothing forcing you to do it in HM full stop. There's nothing stopping you from joining a SC or devising your own balancedway builds to take ~1hr.

I honestly see no feasible way of splitting up UW into sections or saving progress without making the area more exploitable than it already is and ruining the economy more than you claim SCers are. The only real problem comes when EVERYONE is raping an area then yes, items will become valueless. I wouldn't say that any drop from UW turns into merch fodder unless it's an end chest item with an undesirable skin/stats or a drop that will ofc be non-inscribable with the same deal. I know people who have done UWSC after UWSC with no super-massive expensive reward other than ectos that they could have earned in less time by farming on a rit. When you factor in them popping a conset, they've made even less. On the other hand, I know people who have had multiple DSRs/mini smites. Had two people in the alliance get mini Dhuums in 2 days. It's all a matter of luck from that end chest and you stand just as much chance in a SC team of getting double scroll and onyx as you do something decent.

For me, this whole thread just seems to be about laziness. I COULD take 3 hours to clear UW every time if I wanted to, however I don't want to and I have the same options open to me as everyone else out there. Just sayin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

Again, the issue isn't sc or having totally balanced team builds. It is about giving people without such a huge chunk of time the ability to actually clear the area.

Again, the builds that Bright and I are referring to take an hour for that team and don't require huge amounts of skill. If you think 1 hour is too much, then gtfo elite areas. You'd do more damage making UW clearable in 20 mins than leaving as it is now.

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

17 May 2011 at 17:03 - 187

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Two to three hours is not only a significant portion of the day to play in one area, it's damn downright unhealthy (evidenced by the convenient break reminders). All for loot opportunity? Astoundingly bad game design. No area should require multiple breaks without so much as your Internet connection dropping, and that's before adding in the complexity and stress of trying to hold together your group of fellow zombies at their own computers for the entire period of time. With respect, that is what's unreasonable.

Well sure , but if everything that takes more than 1 hour is bad , shall i argue about Heroes Ascent full runs ?? ( not even mentionning restarts , long fights , case of several hall wins , that can take 3 hours or more...)
Let's be honest , how many ( pugs 80% of time though) people join a team in HA or DoA whereas they only have 30mn free??

But once again , that's the huge difference any " old player " will say... Almost anything from long time required a big amount of time : TopK, UW, FoW , HA , etc....( even droks runs required long time lol..)
That's not especially bad to be able to clear areas faster , but it just shouldn't lead to 90% people abusing it

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

17 May 2011 at 17:27 - 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Well sure , but if everything that takes more than 1 hour is bad , shall i argue about Heroes Ascent full runs ?? ( not even mentionning restarts , long fights , case of several hall wins , that can take 3 hours or more...)
Let's be honest , how many ( pugs 80% of time though) people join a team in HA or DoA whereas they only have 30mn free??

That may be part of the reason HA is basically dead...and why there are threads like "HA in crisis" "GvG in crisis"...etc...

30mins is a long shot away from 2-3 hours in a sitting..at least make the time comparable plz

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

17 May 2011 at 18:50 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Omg! I have to pay 7,000 more gold to get this done! Are you kidding me? 7k? That's the big difference?

No, that was only part of what I said. What about this part:

Quote:

Furthermore, in the situation you describe, where the player just farms one area over and over again, they're never going to get the end chest, which is where the real money is made.

7k is enough of a cut into the profits of a single run that people would be incentivized to do as many areas as possible without leaving. Maybe they could change the prices up a bit, who knows, point is that the system that you want is there in the game already. The end chest profits will take care of people who just zone in to clear one particular zone over and over again (as if that's not what people do already...). Just make it so that every time you go in you have to clear the Chamber, then you can proceed to whatever area you want and complete it, boom, done. How is that any more exploitable for farming than what we have now? The only advantage gained is that you can complete a quest, leave, come back, and pick up where you left off.

Bright Star Shine

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2009

Belgium

Club of a Thousand Pandas [LOD???]

E/

17 May 2011 at 20:46 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

No, that was only part of what I said. What about this part:

7k is enough of a cut into the profits of a single run that people would be incentivized to do as many areas as possible without leaving. Maybe they could change the prices up a bit, who knows, point is that the system that you want is there in the game already. The end chest profits will take care of people who just zone in to clear one particular zone over and over again (as if that's not what people do already...). Just make it so that every time you go in you have to clear the Chamber, then you can proceed to whatever area you want and complete it, boom, done. How is that any more exploitable for farming than what we have now? The only advantage gained is that you can complete a quest, leave, come back, and pick up where you left off.

So you would like to add end chests to each area, with rewards that increase once you complete more areas? So you want to cut up UW in parts, not only, but also you're gonna rewards SC'ers even MORE? Sounds like a jolly plan to me...

chuckles79

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2009

FILA

P/

17 May 2011 at 21:16 - 191

You know what would end this pointless thread?
People going to ToA, highest dist. available and "LFG UW full clear". Just PUG the SOB.

UW with heroes suck and there are a lot of people who are incensed at the idea that we HAVE to roll a sin in order to enjoy the UW (with stones you can't even do that anymore).

The ONLY thing that is going to fix this, is people PUGing the UW, learning how it works and what to bring and not to bring.
The only reason people don't PUG it because you have FAILway groups going without a real tank for 4H and idiots taking quests that they should not.

First time I got to Dhuum (after he was added) was with a PuG and we did pretty good. Someone dusted off their ancient Obby Tank warrior and we rolled it.

So forget SCs and bring your your necros, paras, and dervs. Work with your team to make sure you are all on the same page and pick one person to lead, call, and take quests.

It isn't that hard of an area, you just have to take your time.

impulsion

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2008

Terra Noise [Zraw]

N/A

17 May 2011 at 21:42 - 192

Revert UW to how it used to be before Dhuum (so its easy to do) and remove the end chest (so nobody makes any money). Problem?

Net The Nabi

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2008

USA/NJ/EST

[LoD] IGN: The Netnabi

A/

17 May 2011 at 21:55 - 193

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Revert UW to how it used to be before Dhuum (so its easy to do) and remove the end chest (so nobody makes any money). Problem?

Increase ecto droprate and I love this.

Bellatrixa

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2010

Under a blanket drinking tea and being British n_n

Brothers of Other Mother [BoOM]

N/

17 May 2011 at 22:27 - 194

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

The ONLY thing that is going to fix this, is people PUGing the UW, learning how it works and what to bring and not to bring....It isn't that hard of an area, you just have to take your time.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying, but if you've read this thread, the impression I'm getting is that people don't want to invest any time, they just want a push button to win solution. Even us ohsomean SCers have given people viable solutions to their issues without the need to change UW and it's just "BAWWWWW IT TAEKS TOO MUCH TIEM!!!1!".

At the end of the day, sometimes you just have to accept that if you don't have the time to do something, you don't have the time. It will not be end of world if you can't do something due to time constraints. Where will it end? If you don't have a free hour, should UW be fully completable in 20 mins? Hey, why doesn't Anet just give you the statue for scrolling in there instead!

Time management. Learn it. I know people who DO work full time, have kids and can still bloody spare a few hours to game as well. Heck, my alliance leader is amazing in that respect. Works, has a family, trains people for SCs as well as working on characters. If you want to prioritise your RL commitments (as well you should) and not make time for the more challenging content, don't be QQing that the game is too long/hard and cause nerfs for those of us who enjoy somewhat of a challenge.

As Bright and others have said, no matter what changes are made, SCers will find a way to do it faster. Even if there isn't a set SC, some people will always be able to clear the area faster. Not everyone is of the same ability level, therefore the skilled will always be able to out perform others. Take Jeydra and EFG there. To me they are the most skilled players that I have come across with heroes and yet they are simply using what everyone has available to them. SCers (be they tways, balancedways or others) are simply using what everyone else has available to them. I really don't see the need for a huge QQ-fest every time someone does something faster/more effectively than someone else.

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

17 May 2011 at 22:59 - 195

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

So you would like to add end chests to each area, with rewards that increase once you complete more areas? So you want to cut up UW in parts, not only, but also you're gonna rewards SC'ers even MORE? Sounds like a jolly plan to me...

No! God, how did you get that from my post? I was referring to the end chest that was already there; it's existence almost ensures that the most profitable way to play UW is to clear it and open the chest, which should discourage anyone from using any of these ideas to simply solo farm one region. Although, again, I'm really unclear how exactly any of these ideas accomplish that, since you can already go anywhere you want in UW after doing the Chamber.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellatrixa

I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying, but if you've read this thread, the impression I'm getting is that people don't want to invest any time, they just want a push button to win solution.

Spending more time on something in one sitting doesn't make it any harder. DoA's difficulty is unchanged whether you do it all at once or piecemeal, it just means you can spread it out over a few days when you have the time. Comparing this to "push button to win" is asinine; every single player would still have to beat 4H, UWG, etc to beat UW, they just wouldn't have to do them back to back. Barring DP (which, considering how prevalent DP removers are, is completely irrelevant at this point), what extra challenge does one have to overcome to complete UW in one go with a balanced party compared to 8 runs, besides possible eyestrain and ass fatigue?

"Join a speedclear like everyone else" IS NOT A F***ING SOLUTION! I, unlike you, haven't given up on playing GW how it was meant to be played. I like playing in a party, working together, not gathering 8 solo builds into one group and having a time of it. Furthermore, your solution doesn't work for anyone who plays with heroes, or duos, or basically does anything else except play with a SC team or an organized group of 8 who can run "YUMway". Stop pretending like you're presenting us with an obvious solution, because you've just side-stepped the problem entirely. UW became more difficult and time consuming because ANet was trying to stop SCs; they failed at that, SCs are still prevalent, and the only groups that got hurt were the balanced groups. It's time for a little love to be thrown back at the balanced groups, and this would do it.

I don't care if SCs do it faster. Of course they will, that's the point. I just want to be able to do it in a balanced PUG in less than 2 hours. This will in no way affect the economy or SCs, because you'll still be doing it an order of magnitude or so faster than any balanced team, so the rate at which UW is cleared will not appreciably increase. It won't decrease the difficulty of the area, it'll just bring the time commitment back to reasonable levels.

Bellatrixa

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2010

Under a blanket drinking tea and being British n_n

Brothers of Other Mother [BoOM]

N/

17 May 2011 at 23:33 - 196

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

"Join a speedclear like everyone else" IS NOT A F***ING SOLUTION! I, unlike you, haven't given up on playing GW how it was meant to be played. I like playing in a party, working together, not gathering 8 solo builds into one group and having a time of it. Furthermore, your solution doesn't work for anyone who plays with heroes, or duos, or basically does anything else except play with a SC team or an organized group of 8 who can run "YUMway".

I did point out that YUMway isn't the only way to do a balancedway clear of UW and that other guilds/alliances also have their own methods. Heck, you'd know that by simply looking at the Team builds section on PvX! I mentioned that ToA have their ways (different to YUMway) and I'd put money on other guilds and alliances having their ways of clearing. Back in my very first guild we had tactics for UW which were by far from speedy but still utilised certain mechanics to get through. The runs would take 2-2.5 hours depending on how much experience people had with UW, which given that we were mostly inexperienced at elite areas barring one or two people, wasn't too shabby imo. That was a guild lead by anti-SC people, just fyi.

For those who want to SC there are multiple ways of getting in on them, all of which have been covered.

For those who don't:

- Find people who want to do UW balancedway.
- Use PvX to devise builds. Do your research. Pay someone to make your builds for you.
- Use these forums to find other people who want to do UW with you.
- Buy a run of UW or join runs that are posted on these forums.
- Get your guild together to come up with decent methods of clearing UW as a balancedway team.
- Use other people's builds.

All of these things have been suggested in this thread. Mind you, with the ridiculous length it's gotten to, the amount of off-topic arguing and back and forth, I'm not shocked that you haven't been bothering to digest every single post.

Also, who said I don't do anything balancedway anymore? I fully enjoy doing Slaver's Exile and actually advocate MTSC being open to any profession and help devise builds for it to be that way unlike those who are all "ZOMFG U NID 5 WOTAS OR U FAIL!!!11!!". I'm a huge fan of making up builds so that fast and efficient clears are available to all professions, hence my telling people to get off their butts and put some work into what they want. Why should you get the rewards for putting in no effort at all?

So, if you want to do balancedway PUG groups:

1. Make builds for every profession
2. Get builds out there
3. Make those builds popular
4. ???
5. Profit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Barring DP (which, considering how prevalent DP removers are, is completely irrelevant at this point),

If this is indeed true, how come so many pugs don't seem to use it?

Just askin ;D

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

17 May 2011 at 23:57 - 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellatrixa

For me, this whole thread just seems to be about laziness. I COULD take 3 hours to clear UW every time if I wanted to, however I don't want to and I have the same options open to me as everyone else out there. Just sayin.

I disagree (can't speak for everyone else). I see SC and similar methods as an answer to the problem of bad game design: tedious content that people don't really want to play. Yes it's successful, popular and in many cases requires skill, something end-game content should be, except it's for the wrong reasons.

When your players call your bosses "jokes" and hold the greatest challenge as overcoming your design rather than your foes, that's a problem you deserve to be taken to task over, it's not the cry of lazy players refusing to swallow it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

That's not especially bad to be able to clear areas faster , but it just shouldn't lead to 90% people abusing it

Well I can't comment on PvP, but I'd probably feel similarly frustrated if I'm limited not by skill, but needing a stretch of hours in one sitting to accomplish something there. Needless to say, it will be very interesting to see how structured PvP works in GW2.

Neith

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2008

Texas

One in Guild Wars

R/

18 May 2011 at 00:06 - 198

Some of you are missing the point of the OP. They aren't wanting UW to be easily done, there's nothing wrong with asking for the UW to be like slavers or DoA. If they do that then yes I do believe they should make the UW harder. I miss the UW that was before this most recent update of removing a few foes from 4h. I usually monk there and enjoy the challenge that quest and frozenwind give. But also if you can't dedicate 2.5 hours for a balanced party for 10 quests plus Dhuum why play? A HM run takes 3 hours. Im sure you've sat down for that long to watch a movie or TV, GW works the same way. If the UW were to be like DoA or slavers then they need to make it harder. Sorry but if they do that then they need to get rid of sc's also. I am from that anti speed clear guild bella was talking about.

Bellatrixa

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2010

Under a blanket drinking tea and being British n_n

Brothers of Other Mother [BoOM]

N/

18 May 2011 at 00:12 - 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

When your players call your bosses "jokes"

In all seriousness, Dhuum is a joke. It's only his stupidly high HP that makes beating him tedious. Pain Inverter makes the battle laughable as long as you're hitting Judgements with it. And that was the same deal before I did any form of UWSC. Lor, I'm sure you remember taking me into UW for my first time and you and Gary explaining to me how to beat Dhuum. I also remember you guys being such hardasses and never letting me do any elite area in NM! XD

Robin Hood Uk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2006

England

Masterminds Unite [MU]

R/W

18 May 2011 at 00:38 - 200

The main problem with the seemingly popular suggestion of breaking it up like DoA or slavers is pretty simple.

You can change builds inbetween parts. As stated before, UW is designed to be done all in one, if it's split up theres nothing stopping you from stomping all the easymode quests with rojway or whatever you fancy running, exiting, bringing in a tank and doing 4H without any problems.

If there was a way around that, meaning you couldn't change builds in between, then it would be happy days. Unfortunately there isn't, so changing it really would dumb down the entire area.

Could be mildly countered by adding some sort of incentive to do it all in one sitting (DoA gem stacking for full runs, for example), but for that to work the end chest would really need to be removed, as that is the main goal when entering UW if you want to earn good money, and that would just be going back a step.