a change to underworld

I agree with you Robin. They would have to come up with a solution if they were to break up the UW and structure it like DoA. I like how the UW is now. breaks inbetween is no big deal. 5 minute potty break is not a time breaker. you don't take a potty break when you go to a 2 hour movie you wait until it's over so you don't miss the action scenes. I see the pros and cons in both situations, breaking it up causes the issue of build changes being implemented which will face roll just like speedclears do. Not changing it up CAN cause the run to take longer then 2.5 hours, in a case that we had when we took people through for their first time, someone sent me a PM asking if it was alright to go because they had a health condition that required them to take frequent breaks. To us it didn't matter, we were there to enjoy ourselves not becoming epeen elitests. It's my favorite elite area. I actually think they should make it a bit more difficult whether they were to split it up or not. I like the challenge.

....
Dammit, you got me.

I'm really not enjoying the discussion anymore, and going on about the money is boring, but I have to say it..
So, if I'm getting you right, because I got you wrong at first, your argument was at the start that a player doing it in 8 parts would be paying roughly 7k more than someone doing it in one go, yet you still want to keep the end chest there. Just a reminder, the end chest drops: 1 ecto, 2 Ghastly's, a UW scroll and a Phantom Key (those are 100% certain) and some other crap, which occasionally isn't crap. That's about 15-20k worth of crap every time you open the silly thing. Occasionally it's more like 20-200e depending on what other thing you get.. Also, you'll probably get ecto's drop in UW itself. So, the argument of having to pay 7k more is pretty redundant, especially since we're arguing about 7k here...

Yes, you would still have to do the "hard" quests, but you could tweak builds in between. If I would do UW with hero's -implying I could ever be arsed- and I had the choice of going out there in between fights and be able to tweak my builds, I could abuse the crap out of it..
Djee, 4h is the next quest? Well, I guess I'll bring 5 copies of Mistrust, that should teach em.
Gosj, I have to do the Bone Pits now? Why yes Dunkoro, of course you can come with. What's that, you want to take your Ion Canon/Jezus Beam? Of course you can! That should blow up those silly Bone Collectors!

The extra challenge of doing UW in one go is that you have to take you builds as such that you must be able to complete all quests, that's where the challenge lies. Remove this aspect and all challenge is completely gone...

This one made me lol actually, especially the highlighted sentences.
For the first one: another person who tries to tell us how this game should be played. It's pretty cute I have to admit, how some players think they're better than some because they play the game how they think it should be played...
For the second one: Ok, yes, for UW this might be true, but I love the irony of that post. "I don't play SC's, because you don't play in a team!" combined with "I want to be able to do shit with my heroes, but it's to tough for me!"
Also, SC's aren't working in a team? Then you sir, have never attended a DoASC before in your life..
Third one: first you tell us that you want to play as a team, when we say there are plenty of people who run as a team, you condescend to them and tell us that solution is not viable and that we're sidestepping the problem...

Ok, yes, the changes to UW were unfair towards the casual player (something I stated a couple pages back already) but there are plenty of "super duper cool" balanced way groups that "play the game as you're supposed to play it" who can clear UW in a reasonable time. That's not sidestepping, that's stating the truth. Some players keep saying balanced way groups can't clear it anymore, and as such it's unfair, but we gave you the counter example. And don't tell me that they can do it because they're experienced. Because (and no offense meant to anyone personal in the YUM ally) some people I saw do those balanced ways were some of the biggest "hurr durr" players I have ever met.. And experienced is not the correct word..

EDIT: rereading my post gave me an idea all of a sudden. If we actually do cut up UW, another fairly easy abuse would be: "hey, how about I clear all this crap with my heroes in NM, and then go do silly little Dhuum in HM, I'll get nice rewards for not doing a bloody thing!"
You know, that thing they do with Duncan all the time?

In regurds to your last edit there Bright star shine, would it not be the case if it broken in the way I said where you take the quest you have the choice either nm or hm, have to complete it all before you can then decide to change it to hm would stop that effect like duncan has.

So reaper dude gives you 2 quest otions in toa

1- Uw full run(nm or hm) as is now

2-SOLO +heros saved progress run(nm-hm) noting that if u select this run you cannot repeate an area once completed, saved progress is team saved noting no changes can be made to builds, every progress would be saved data. that way there would be no farming, no abusing it. all it would mean if I completed an area and didnt have time to finish I could come back at any time and continue.

was just an idea I thought would be a good option.
seams i more stired the debate iof SC and sf which wasnt my attetion, but everyone still carries on about it.

anyways not reallly going anywhere is it

cheers

If you want to debate potential abuse you may as well just ask ANET to stop adding any content or updates.

No matter what is changed or added.. within a very short period of time you will have posts/vids/walkthroughs with detailed instructions on how to abuse anything remotely abuse-able.

It seems to be the very nature of this community.. The first question is generally not "is it good" but instead "how can I farm it". Balance changes.. no one cares if needed or not.. its "omg they nerfed x-farm". Doesn't matter is something is mindless repetitive dreck either.. Farmable content=good content no matter how poorly implemented.

It is quite pathetic and paints everyone as some sort of OCD junky unwilling to consider any other aspect of gaming beyond mindlessly repeating some singular aspect of this game in pursuit of profit, points, titles or whatever.

Done with this. Every debate devolves to Farming and Farmers. Yes, farming is an aspect of every MMO.. but I have never seen it glorified to the extent it is by this community nor have I seen it permeate nearly all aspects of the game like it does here.

Grats. In most games I have played it comes down to staying around because of the community. Here? I'm staying here for the gameplay alone. Praise ANET.. I can solo it my way without buying into the culture.

Your ideas would indeed solve everything, but they seem like a hell of a lot of work for the development team, just because someone can't complete their elite content, which is meant to be hard... No offense to you, and I understand you fully, but it kind of goes in to the aspect of being elite, imo...

There were some ideas being thrown around that would help to address this, such as better rewards for doing it all in one go as you mentioned, as well as requiring clear the chamber every time you entered. It really isn't that big of an issue anyways since the number of people completing the area in multiple parts will still be peanuts next to the number of completions made by SC teams.

Don't forget that completing everything in 1 go is harder than being seperate. If you fail at 9/10 you must start over, not go back to 8/10. You must also concentrate for the whole time, it would be a lot easier if you start each quest with a fresh mind.

That's what happens when you don't have a major content release in 3+ years to keep the playerbase preoccupied. Once you've done everything you either do it again, farm, or quit. There should be absolutely no surprise content is constantly probed for weakness at this point in the game's life especially places with valuable drops. Anet did this to themselves by assuming EotN would be enough boring repetition to hold their customers over until they eventually release the sequel. It's not the community's fault and regardless of how people play they do still play which is a good thing is it not?

Here's one of the problems... By experience i had with pug teams a few months ago , most players had no idea how to beat dhuum , which is quite hard for people who never got it...
Even though , i managed to complete UW HM several times with heroes now and i got to say dhuum is the most tricky...

Just to say that it's quite a pain to finish those 10 quests , especially with pug groups, to just fail at that boss that was supposed to stop sc's....
That's why maybe , separating dhuum and other 10 quests like in DoA could be done , reverting back a chest at end of 10 quests , and adding an extra one popping 1 green item after beating dhuum could be quite fun too....

But really , there's no way they could split quests otherwise , not considering abuses , but simply concerning the way UW was implemented

>implying that every SC team is successful


Even in the most experienced of SC guilds, run still fail. For pugs, the failrate is much higher, generally due to lack of experience of the area, lack of knowledge of the other players, lack of Ventrilo/TS to communicate with others. Someone even mentioned to me that tway has a certain 33% failure rate due to various spawns (although I can't say how accurate that information is because I quite simply don't tway). Fact of the matter is that the number of successful SC teams that complete UW daily are a drop in the ocean that is the economy compared to what would happen if UW was changed to completion in sections as it is now.

If you can devise a feasible way to split it up, to not let people change builds, fine. But I really can't see it being changed this late in the game. I'd rather see Menzies added to FoW tbh. I also agree with impulsion that if you failed one of the quests you'd have to start over, not just start from the last quest you successfully completed.

Unless you're a masochist like Jeydra or Jack, just throw cons at him. +10AL, +100hp, +more hp from morale boost, and Shelter from a ST hero is enough to survive Judgment. Popping powerstones like candy can counteract Touch. GDW+Earthbind is nice, but not mandatory. He does kinda force you into packing more party heals than you'd otherwise want in order to recover from Judgment though...

Unfortunately true.. but... Income is derived from new game sales, new players, I have not even played three years.

This is one of those unfathomable decisions by Anet. Just because older, more experienced players have trivialized endgame content and put it on farm status does NOT mean you tweak and ramp that content up to compensate and by that process increase the difficulty for people just getting to that content. If EQ2 or WoW did that to raid instances people would burn their offices. New players have not trivialized content yet.. You don't tweak normal old content up to placate or attempt to control old players.. you add variations like they did with HM.

If farming endgame content needs to be controlled.. you control repeatability, period. A simple timed lockout on success would have done far more to control dungeon chest farming than anything they have attempted. It is nothing new.. and not rocket science.

Well, you talked about burning down offices, I see offices being burned down if this would be implemented. I know it would force people to try different stuff in the game, but when you're so far in that you done/seen most of it, it's not gonna help anyone. Let people that like to SC do what they like to do, it's a game, meant for fun and doing what you like after all.. Forcing people into doing stuff they don't wanna do is not gonna help sales, or keep the already dieing playerbase playing..

But.. it's ok to make MY game less fun by implementing changes solely to address farming issues? um. right. Mobs spewing unmitigatable damage meant to somehow counter SF effects every person that ever zones in to UW, regardless of intention, profession or build. It makes an unreasonable time commitment even more unreasonable to the non SC specialists. It is like using a shotgun to control mosquitos, and effects everyone. THAT is forcing an issue on the entire playerbase..

If people are doing SCs to beat a clock a lockout timer of say..even 4 hours would not effect what they do. It would not stop people from speed clearing. What it would do would make speed clearing as a farming tool undesirable. It would be a far better method than screwing around nerfing skills and tailormaking spawns to try and deal with skills. It would not even effect chamber clearing unless you popped the end chest. It is a successful, widely implemented mechanic to counter elite instance farming.

If you would read some of my previous posts, you would've seen I already stated that the changes made to UW were unfair towards non-SC'ers.. But I don't care that much about UW, and I only very rarely do it, unless friends convince me to come..

I'm still a bit doubting on what statement I have to pick though. Because ye it's unfair towards casual players, yet nay it's supposed to be a hard area after all..

I don't get the shotgun reference though..

I suppose he means that the method used, negatively affects more people than the intended targets.

Kinda like nuking a whole country to kill one person I guess.

Last night with my woman on the lash and the boy finally asleep, No Match of the Day, I sit down for another 2 hour stab at the UW.

Although I have completed every other elite area in HM I haven't ever completed UW in normal. Always due to some NPC taking a beating or getting logged out or whatever. Last time a reaper took a hammering even though he was greyed out.

I know exactly where to go, how to do each mission. I run a build based on advice from some of the posters on this forum (thanks Jack Jeydra and Lex). Bit defensive so took me two hours to get to Dhuum. The chap himself wondered around a bit looking confused, didn't kill or DP us once so I took a smug screenie in preperation for finishing.




Only to be told seconds later that Guild Wars can't complete this operation. The bug that I read on these forums had been fixed - isn't. When Dhuum gets to zero health you get kicked out.

So not only do I have to run a build totally geared around broken quests I also have to bring some heals for the end boss to make sure he doesn't die. Maybe I should run heal area on all my heroes.

I don't get 2 1/2 hours to do this too often these days. To fail due to this is really rather annoying.

But UW doesn't need fixing right?

the wiki still has this bug listed:

Bug: If you kill Dhuum before Dhuum's Rest is full, your entire party might be disconnected without the possibility of reconnecting.

Was that your situation?

Just wanna say the only problem with this(side from the work that needs to be put into it) is that UW scrolls become null and void. It also doesn't help 'Balanced teams'.

@North Devon Dog - Why would you even risk a bug that could end something that took you that long? It was NM and you had enough to keep you alive at Dhumm, why not sacrifice a hero or two to help DR go faster? If you're goal was completion why not use cons to speed everything up and make life easier?

The bug is stupid, but this comment is stupider. If you didn't know UW well enough to sac a few into spirits, pulling your heroes onto passive or disabling some attack skills is a pretty obvious solution.

And comments get even stupider!

ANet destroyed areas like UW by pampering soley to the elitist, wiki reading, self centred, selfish masses.

GW, if it is to be successful in the future (GW2) must never lose focus of the fact that with a customer base of (hopefully) millions, half of them will be below average.

Pretty stupid to abandon half your customer base.

It's a rare bug though probably a bit more common than when Shiro glitches. I've been down there dozens of times in teams that KD lock him as low as his hp can go long before his rest fills and it's never once happened to us. Good news is you are capable of making it that far so while it sucks that this happened you should be able to do it again.

I was aware of the bug but had read that it had been fixed. I don't read wiki much so maybe I should have. @net I don't use cons, just because I am too tight

Sorry to Foxbat for blighting these forums with my stupid comments, but the point was this bug exists, as do many others in GW. UW should be broken up in sections so that random disconnects etc, do not ruin peoples fun. I do think I should be able to rejoin UW at some point further on from the start and finish the job.

No I don't mind Speed Clears. No I don't want UW to be easier (FoW is a joke) just some common sense.

Sorry another stupid comment no doubt.

Abandoning your player base because you put in a dungeon which requires co-ordination? WTF? There should be some territories which are only completable with experience, corresponding builds and well coordinated teams (they are called elite areas for a reason).

And if you think a bit, elitists are right most of the time, they don't want to lose time with noobs in these 3 hours long dungeons just to get wiped at the end. Same as HA. This is why people should find guilds and play with them. This is how competitive play started, I guess.

Many have no problem learning to do something, we just don't like spending all day running around and doing easy quests we know, just to get to a new quest that screws us over, forcing an entire repeat and wasting time. I understand a lot of players endure it, even through the old days before a lot of power creep, but it's a terrible design for content that shouldn't be defended, more like the status quo that's really too late to change.

You say that like people aren't already in guilds with their friends, and wouldn't have to abandon them to do elite content. This problem isn't unique, either, it's another roadblock to enjoying content you want to play with people you like. It's why they fixed it in GW2.

I'm convinced a total redesign of the area would be needed to make it ideal, but that sounds as likely to happen as changes that fix PvP.

Here's a simple truth: They should have NEVER allowed anyone to solo endgame content, and made it a mission to keep it that way. That was an Anet priority in 2007. Then SF came and 600/smite, and so on.

Now, for the problem at hand. How can non-SF using toons, belonging to small guilds of friends, beat the UW or failing that; how can it be made more PuG friendly.

I have an idea, that people will harp on but is semi reasonable. Once 4 reapers are freed, allow the team to purchase a single second chance" from Mayor Allegheri. It should spare the team if one (and only one) reaper dies.
Make it expensive, maybe 10-20 platinum at least. It shouldn't count for Dhuum though.

Difficult to implement and the UW regulars will hate it, but it would solve the major complaint of many here (Take 2 hours getting to the 4H and SY get's diversion'd.)

Just throwing it out there.

Lets not forget that UW only got hard because ANet refused to deal with SF. The Difficulty and annoyance only came with repeated failed attempts by ANet to deal with the SF SC teams and solo SF plains farmers. Now everyone is suffering for that and ANet has abandond every normal player, the one way NOT to do UW is to play the content normally, that is failing your customer base hard.

This had a perfect solution once that did not impact normal teams but completely reversed course. No invinci build in the game could deal with this which simultaneously halved the number of farmable things in Plains. Signet based enchant removal has always been the answer. As for which group of people (SC vs. solo farmers) has caused more damage...that is a matter of debate. Solo farmers weren't clearing the entire Underworld in <10 minutes.