Game Update - 5/23/2011 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

24 May 2011 at 10:22 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

triple dervish still won the AT comfortably. Dervishes still too good, so lets expect another nerf next month then. This is becoming quite a waste of dev time, nerfing dervishes every single month a bit more, just delete them from the game and be done with it, they dont add anything positive or fun in PvP at least...

That's exactly what i was trying to argue... Buffing a class and then slowly nerfing it every month is a too easy substitute for real PvP content , whereas not changing anything in PvE....

On the update itself , heart of fury is just not doing anything ( Coward , which was an elite skill , lost all it's power of perma-kding , whereas you can still chain heart of fury quite easily.....) and i don't think other updates will do much ( Onslaught eventually , but considering it's an enchantment + an elite skill , people weren't using it that much....)

miriforst

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

Avalons Wraiths

R/Rt

24 May 2011 at 11:07 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Smite monks are already hugely powerful but PvE players are just so incredibly stupid, they don't know what they already have. Strength of Honor in PvE is absurd. Couple that with RoJ, Smite Hex, Smite Condition, Judge's Insight, Smiter's Boon, Castigation Signet for e-management and Reversal of Damage and you have a ridiculously powerful bar that offers tons of party support that most fire and forget builds don't.

Smite monks have also been super-powered in the past and it was terrible for the game. Does anybody remember Air of Enchantment smiters with Zealots Fire? Apparently not. I don't want to go back to that kind of brainless damage dealing build.

I agree, to make smiting monks more efficient is highly dangerous and theres a reason why coupling damage with ultra high support is a line dance. The monk isn't a primary damage profession. The smiting prayers line is useful as it is while packing hex removal, damage negotiation, condition removal and a small heal from divine favor (there was a reason smiters boon got... well booned) while dealing armor ignoring damage and sure as a monk everyone will laugh at you if you bring smiting prayers, but thats often as a monk you have some of the most important roles of the party that takes priority.

For lolpve remember how roj was the best nuke build before the serious ---- got buffed this very year? Its still great, its only not the king anymore but then it still tops elementalists while giving tons of offensive and defensive support.

If smiting monks are to get an update be afraid. Be very, very afraid...

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

24 May 2011 at 11:38 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

That's exactly what i was trying to argue... Buffing a class and then slowly nerfing it every month is a too easy substitute for real PvP content , whereas not changing anything in PvE....

On the update itself , heart of fury is just not doing anything ( Coward , which was an elite skill , lost all it's power of perma-kding , whereas you can still chain heart of fury quite easily.....) and i don't think other updates will do much ( Onslaught eventually , but considering it's an enchantment + an elite skill , people weren't using it that much....)

The fact that dervs cant perma cripple people anymore however, does a shitton imo. Been running around in toomz with hammer and axe warriors and I was having a blast. People are just sick of seeing dervishes so they take any excuse not to use them anymore.

Dot Rotten

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2009

UK

W/

24 May 2011 at 11:39 - 44

I've heard rumours of monks getting a buff for smiting. Will be funny to see them as spikers if it isn't just a rumour ^^

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

24 May 2011 at 11:53 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Dear Anet,

Define "other professions" please.

I second this.

They're talking about the Non-imba Paragon and Smiter update planned ages ago after last large update?

Or maybe......they finally understood HM Eles and PvE Rangers must be fixed? (ok, this is way too much optimistic).

Yay, next update then will be Wars and Sins......unexpected, unwanted, unneeded....

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

24 May 2011 at 12:20 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

I have no idea why they even created Dervs. Dervs are a cool concept yet they were not made quite right and got even more screwed up after a rework. IMHO that child should have been aborted and Anet should have released 1 profession per campaign. Assassin for factions and Ritualist for NF. Screw paragons to.

I don't agree with that.
They shouldn't have released any new professions.

And offensive Smiters aren't awesome in PvE (unless lol-undead); they're not even particularly good. Neither are the defensive ones really, but they have some use.
I would rather not see a change here. The only thing you could sanely do is give Monks a viable offensive AP build.

And yeah, Rangers could do with some tuning* in PvE, but don't touch them for PvP; that'd just be bloody stupid.
*Not much reason to alter more than 5-10 skills.

Brian the Gladiator

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Michigan, USA

Us Are Not [leet]

E/

24 May 2011 at 12:29 - 47

Hopefully the next major skill update will be to Aegis... yep.... one skill that solves about half the problems we are seeing in PvP today and will probably be the most drastic skill balance of the past year.

Removing Aegis PvP split = guilds can no longer run stupid shit. Doing this will move all builds towards the center. No more Triple Melee. No more Dervish trains and brainless C-spacing. It forces people to communicate. It forces people to bring shutdown. Having additional shutdown Makes A/P spike and true spike less strong. It makes builds more diverse and splittable thus making Cake split less strong. It forces people to actually play the game.

Also, increase recharge on B-flash... kk

floor

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2008

England

Activity Can Be An Issue [afk] / Queen And Country [QC]

Mo/W

24 May 2011 at 12:57 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Hopefully the next major skill update will be to Aegis... yep.... one skill that solves about half the problems we are seeing in PvP today and will probably be the most drastic skill balance of the past year.

Removing Aegis PvP split = guilds can no longer run stupid shit. Doing this will move all builds towards the center. No more Triple Melee. No more Dervish trains and brainless C-spacing. It forces people to communicate. It forces people to bring shutdown. Having additional shutdown Makes A/P spike and true spike less strong. It makes builds more diverse and splittable thus making Cake split less strong. It forces people to actually play the game.

Also, increase recharge on B-flash... kk

Smart post, however unlikely it is to happen. I simply cannot see anet giving in and reverting aegis as much as i'd like to see it make a return. As you rightly said, it basically forces you to bring shutdown which then turns guild wars into ping based euro balance where its impossible to win off server - something im sure anet are not keen to implement.

On a side note, if something providing passive defence, on a similar scale to aegis was introduced, it would have to be one hell of a big update to accommodate it, when u consider that as a result of no aegis, guardian got an increased duration, twinned with buffs to party heals in the form of healing burst, and a now insanely powerful blinding flash, (im sure there are other obvious ones i've missed) the potential for unbreakable defenceballs stalling for 28 is significant.

As a minimum, any passive defence skill introduced for monks, MUST BE IN DIVINE FAVOUR. Oddly enough, if aegis style defence was introduced, i can actually see america abusing it horrifically, even though it was a very "european" skill in the past. America over the last 2 years seems to have abandoned frontliners a bit and shutdown completely in favour of lots of eles, able to spike/split/defenceball. If all these eles had access to some chainable passive defence skill, then gg its a flawless american gold cape every month as the euros simply would never be able to shut down all the defence. The argument then would be dont run shutdown and just split urselves, but everyone knows that would never happen...

ErrantVenture

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2010

Social Darwinism [SaD]

A/W

24 May 2011 at 13:06 - 49

Reverting aegis makes for slow. stale matches. It slows down the pace of the game far more than other blocking skills because it hampers utility. Unlike guardian, aegis chains slow adrenaline flow, prevent bulls from landing, make ranger interrupts much less effective, and make poison spread much more difficult. With the continual powercreep in monk skills since aegis was changed (healing burst, patient, shielding hands) and aegis revert would be a death sentence on GvG. It'd force almost every game to go to 28 and would change the game from a frustrating one to a boring one.

Reverting aegis in PvP is one of the WORST moves the design team could make, there was a reason why passive defense skills have been systematically removed from the game since NF.

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

24 May 2011 at 13:32 - 50

Bring back guild thief +vod (make npc not ball anymore)
Make shield guardian the 'old' aegis(15e/cast/30recharge/earhshot)
And then nerf stuff;

pious fury/rending aura/avatars/onslaught/etc...

e surge/m wrack/shatter delusions

defile defenses/soul bind/opressive gaze/corrupt enchant

dev hammer (8adr)/magehunter smash(9adr)/flail/coward: strength restriction/ balanced stance/ disciplined stance/shield stance

magebane shot:unblockable if foe not enchanted

blinding flash(15e)/invoke lighting(2sec cast)/mind blast(extra sec recharge)

healing burst/word of healing/patient spirit:more dmg reduction and give less heal, get healed again when it end 2soon/shielding hands: 0.75sec cast and make same duration +recharge as soa

wastrels collapse/falling spider:loose all adrealine/falling lotus: loose all adrealine/way of the assasin:remove crit hit benefit/fox fangs: unblockable if foe is not enchanted

And Remove Tiebreaker.

TheRakeman

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2011

W/P

24 May 2011 at 15:39 - 51

I think monks as a whole should get a PvE update. With the lack of human players, smiting should be a bit more versatile for people playing with heroes (although I agree with others, it is not bad now like some people say, I typically always run with a smiting hero - just give more options, maybe some different elites than RoJ). I think the real problem, though, is that in elite areas, ritualist has more or less completely replaced the monk. If all monk can do is heal and it can't even do that very well compared to other options, then monk needs something in PvE. 100% fine in PvP, obviously, so hopefully anet doesn't touch that at all.

Eles and Rangers need the update more, though, I agree. At least monks are always at least workable.

NerfHerder

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2010

24 May 2011 at 17:01 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRakeman

I think monks as a whole should get a PvE update. With the lack of human players, smiting should be a bit more versatile for people playing with heroes (although I agree with others, it is not bad now like some people say, I typically always run with a smiting hero - just give more options, maybe some different elites than RoJ). I think the real problem, though, is that in elite areas, ritualist has more or less completely replaced the monk. If all monk can do is heal and it can't even do that very well compared to other options, then monk needs something in PvE. 100% fine in PvP, obviously, so hopefully anet doesn't touch that at all.

Eles and Rangers need the update more, though, I agree. At least monks are always at least workable.

^this

I do want PvE smiters to get abuff, not PvP smiters. In PvE the utility is good. And reactive damage skills like Smite Hex and Reversal of Damage are good, but they still turn you into red bar watchers. RoJ is good, but not nearly as good as some would want you to believe, at least not in PVE. I would like to see the kind of offensive capabilities you find in Channeling, Air Magic, and Domination.

Although Eles, Rangers, and Paras need the skill updates more in PvE.

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

24 May 2011 at 19:06 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

No more Triple Melee.

Triple Melee back during the worst of the triple aegis, dual defensive anthem, ward against melee, hyper-defense web meta was the most fun I've had since 2006.

Not that I'm against an aegis revert. I think it's one of the better ideas being tossed around.

Still Number One

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2008

W/

24 May 2011 at 19:19 - 54

I think an Aegis revert is an interesting idea, but it won't be enough all by itself. Mesmers with disruption ability already exist and they can just drop a skill for mirror of disenchantment to deal with multiple copies of Aegis. I really don't see it eliminating triple melee. When Aegis was most effective was when it was coupled with Ward against melee and defensive anthem paragons as well as weapon of warding being usable on frontlines. It only seemed so powerful because it was the main focus in builds that had layer after layer of team defense. And as lame as this meta may be, defense balls were really not that much better.

Ghull Ka

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Seattle, WA

Grenths Helpdesk

N/

24 May 2011 at 20:41 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

I have no idea why they even created Dervs.

Pretty girl in hood with sparkly eyes on cover.

It sells boxes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Reverting aegis makes for slow. stale matches. It slows down the pace of the game far more than other blocking skills because it hampers utility. Unlike guardian, aegis chains slow adrenaline flow, prevent bulls from landing, make ranger interrupts much less effective, and make poison spread much more difficult. With the continual powercreep in monk skills since aegis was changed (healing burst, patient, shielding hands) and aegis revert would be a death sentence on GvG. It'd force almost every game to go to 28 and would change the game from a frustrating one to a boring one.

Reverting aegis in PvP is one of the WORST moves the design team could make, there was a reason why passive defense skills have been systematically removed from the game since NF.

They could always add a "this enchantment ends after 1..3 blocks" onto Aegis. :P Or put some of that crazy "and ends on other players" like Angelic Bond has?

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

24 May 2011 at 21:39 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

On the update itself , heart of fury is just not doing anything ( Coward , which was an elite skill , lost all it's power of perma-kding , whereas you can still chain heart of fury quite easily.....)

Heart of fury is trash now. It has slightly better uptime than a 10 mysticism pious fury (which is only 80%), if you are hitting an immobile dummy that never blocks, kites, or has its teammates blind you. This skill has dropped off the face of the planet for good reason.

Pious fury however brings its own issues, inflexibily tearing down an enchant every 10s, making it harder to bring TMS and providing a significant energy drain, and by the way not even maintainable without 14 myst. It may not be "enough" but it's a substantial hit.

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

24 May 2011 at 22:07 - 57

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Yay, next update then will be Wars and Sins......unexpected, unwanted, unneeded....

No, the next update will be changes to Blood Magic.

Shadar

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2006

Croatia

[ACID]

Me/

25 May 2011 at 00:15 - 58

Well my guild managed to play 7 ladder matches tonight facing no more then 2-3 dervishes combined total, so this update seems like a success.
However, for some reason guildies insisted on playing euro balanced, which is painfuly obsolete at this point. Or we just failed

Now only if they could fix bflash, mind wrack combo and all stuff that should add elemental dmg but instead for some reason adds armor ignoring dmg (Conjure X, MoI - I'm looking at you)

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

25 May 2011 at 04:26 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadar

Now only if they could fix bflash, mind wrack combo and all stuff that should add elemental dmg but instead for some reason adds armor ignoring dmg (Conjure X, MoI - I'm looking at you)

Uh, I thought the conjures added elemental damage. Am I mistaken?

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

25 May 2011 at 04:51 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Smite monks are already hugely powerful but PvE players are just so incredibly stupid, they don't know what they already have. Strength of Honor in PvE is absurd. Couple that with RoJ, Smite Hex, Smite Condition, Judge's Insight, Smiter's Boon, Castigation Signet for e-management and Reversal of Damage and you have a ridiculously powerful bar that offers tons of party support that most fire and forget builds don't.

For PvE I reckon you might be forgetting a few points.....

RoJ~small aoe and causes scatter (hm)
Smiter's Boon is not worth the skill slot when u have PvE skills
Dependant on team settup physical buffs may or may not be advisable.

Besides those points yeah we all know about roj nuking....vsf for example...soo for another and that human melee chars benefit greatly from soh on a hero

Saying that pve players are "incredibly stupid" for only using smite monks dependant on situation is the pot calling the kettle black to say the least.

BladeDVD

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Hawaii

Clan Of Elders

N/

25 May 2011 at 05:07 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Uh, I thought the conjures added elemental damage. Am I mistaken?

They do, but the wiki says the extra damage is also armor ignoring.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conjure_Lightning

miriforst

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

Avalons Wraiths

R/Rt

25 May 2011 at 05:18 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Hopefully the next major skill update will be to Aegis... yep.... one skill that solves about half the problems we are seeing in PvP today and will probably be the most drastic skill balance of the past year.

Removing Aegis PvP split = guilds can no longer run stupid shit. Doing this will move all builds towards the center. No more Triple Melee. No more Dervish trains and brainless C-spacing. It forces people to communicate. It forces people to bring shutdown. Having additional shutdown Makes A/P spike and true spike less strong. It makes builds more diverse and splittable thus making Cake split less strong. It forces people to actually play the game.

Also, increase recharge on B-flash... kk

Only thing i'm slightly worried about that is the potential of signet of mystic speed. But otherwise i would think it would be a good idea as it helps builds focusing on shutdown. And shutdown without simultanious brainless mega damage should be encouraged imho.

Strong effects shall have big drawbacks or be vulnerable in general.

Shadar

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2006

Croatia

[ACID]

Me/

25 May 2011 at 09:58 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Uh, I thought the conjures added elemental damage. Am I mistaken?

From the way the skill descriptions are written it seems that way. But it is in fact armor ignoring dmg, which is (for a long time) an unfixed bug.

As such it adds 2 * 33 armor ignoring dmg to a spike team (MoI ele) which already has plenty armor ignoring dmg from the mind wrack combo Mesmer.
Also for the popular A/E with conjure it adds 7 * 15 additional packages of dmg when he does his full combo.

Fixing this bugged dmg would promote mindful usage of the correct shieldset.

Mashiyu

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2010

E/

25 May 2011 at 12:15 - 64

I can't see a reason why every +xx dmg on attack skills should be armor-ignoring but the conjures not. And MoI without dealing armor ignoring damage wouldn't be worth its elite state imo.

BTW: The damage from conjures is BOTH elemental AND armor-ignoring - it can be tested via Mantra of <Element>. The only bugfix needed is a update to the skill description.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

25 May 2011 at 13:38 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadar

From the way the skill descriptions are written it seems that way. But it is in fact armor ignoring dmg, which is (for a long time) an unfixed bug.

This is not necessarily a bug; it is probably intentional.
Note that elemental damage is not inherently armour sensitive, or at least it's possible for what are typically armour sensitive sources to provide armour ignoring damage (see Splinter Weapon which most definitely provides armour ignoring physical damage.).

Shadar

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2006

Croatia

[ACID]

Me/

25 May 2011 at 14:53 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashiyu

I can't see a reason why every +xx dmg on attack skills should be armor-ignoring but the conjures not. And MoI without dealing armor ignoring damage wouldn't be worth its elite state imo.

Well my reasoning would be that combining those +dmg armor ignoring attacks skills with +dmg armor ignoring Conjure gives OP offensive output to a single character.
Examples: A/E with Conjure, W/A bbway warriors with Brutal weapon that used to plague HA.

Regarding MoI, it has been a badly designed elite since it's initial buff/rework. It makes the water ele, which is already powerful enough with blurred and snares, an efficient spike character while loosing none of the snaring power.
I'd like to see it phased out of meta and replaced by interesting water elites such as Water Trident, Shatterstone or even the mega-annoying snares like Icy Shakles or Mind Freeze.

If the armor ignoring dmg on MoI is intentional and not a bug, then that is just bad design and should be changed.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

25 May 2011 at 21:10 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

And yeah, Rangers could do with some tuning* in PvE, but don't touch them for PvP; that'd just be bloody stupid.
*Not much reason to alter more than 5-10 skills.

You don't play ranger in PvE, do you?

Agree on no PvP changes, though, that's my guess as to why Anet doesn't take action.

And if they rework Smiting in PvE the dart board analogy starts to sound pretty plausible.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

25 May 2011 at 21:24 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadar

If the armor ignoring dmg on MoI is intentional and not a bug, then that is just bad design and should be changed.

Another skill like that is Ancestors Rage. All direct damage skills in the channeling line do lightning damage but ancestors rage is armor ignoring yet the skills says it does lightning damage. I'm sorry but that makes zero sense. I know its only used for pve except for AB maybe but skills that make no sense annoy me.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

25 May 2011 at 21:30 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

You don't play ranger in PvE, do you?

Agree on no PvP changes, though, that's my guess as to why Anet doesn't take action.

No, and for good reason.
But I am serious; a complete rework is not necessary to make rangers useful in PvE and it could be done with only a few skill changes; they'd be limited to one, at most two builds, but then Assassins are too (outside of SF).

Brian the Gladiator

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Michigan, USA

Us Are Not [leet]

E/

26 May 2011 at 11:18 - 70

EDIT: My response to all of you was massive and it was a complete hijack of the entire thread... so I moved it to the game discussion section titled, "Skill Balance: Aegis Revert".

Please comment there. I really want to know your opinions.