We need an incentive for PvP teams to take in low ranked (or rankless) players. I suggest:
1. If a very high total ranking team beats a very low total ranking team which is expected, they get zero or very low rewards.
2. If a low total ranking team beats a high ranking team which is unexpected, they get much better rewards.
3. The system would try to make the best possible matchup based on total rank level of the team.
If not, then what is the incentive for all these high ranked players to help out low ranked players? Right now we have none. Low ranked players are now risk baggages that most groups avoid because every group wants to win (of course).
What do you think?
HA matches need to take the total rank levels in the team into account
Daesu
Del
And turn a near dead format into a dead format?
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Del
And turn a near dead format into a dead format?
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Even if somehow a team consisting of new comers join, they usually get beaten at the first match and feel discouraged because they are inexperienced.
What incentive do we have for high ranking players to even help out rankless players right now?
Second, is it even a fair match when a team of rank 11+s beats a team of rankless players?
This results in the intense GROUPING of high ranked players among themselves instead of helping out rankless players to enjoy the format.
lemming
1. It's already dead.
2. This has been suggested a dozen times already.
2. This has been suggested a dozen times already.
melissa b
There are ways that might help new players join ha that are fair to the veteran player.
/1 Star This isn't one of them
/1 Star This isn't one of them
Daesu
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Originally Posted by melissa b
There are ways that might help new players join ha that are fair to the veteran player.
/1 Star This isn't one of them |
Comon, if you have a rank 11 player and a rankless player with the same profession, which one would you pick in HA?
This cause the formation of overpowered teams in terms of experience relative to a rankless team of newbies and remember if either side wins, the rewards are the SAME. How is this even a fair match? And yet the current format actually encourages people to just form teams of high ranking players while making it hard for the low ranking players to get a foothold into the game.
I say if the rankless team somehow manages to beat a team of level 11+s veterans, the rankless team should be rewarded MORE because they accomplished something totally unexpected of them. And the reward should be less the other way round.
lemming
So... you think that it's bad to want to play with better players in an organized team format?
(And before someone tries to quote me out of context: no, rank isn't any absolute determinant of skill, but a rank 11 player is more likely to know what to do than a rank 0 player.)
(And before someone tries to quote me out of context: no, rank isn't any absolute determinant of skill, but a rank 11 player is more likely to know what to do than a rank 0 player.)
Daesu
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Originally Posted by lemming
So... you think that it's bad to want to play with better players in an organized team format?
(And before someone tries to quote me out of context: no, rank isn't any absolute determinant of skill, but a rank 11 player is more likely to know what to do than a rank 0 player.) |
Right now, the high ranking player can just sit back relax and win with his other high ranking buddies.
The former should be given higher rewards than the latter. If the rewards for the 2 situations are the same as they are now, most high ranking players are just going to choose the latter because it is the less risky way to win.
Del
Low ranked players want to play with low ranked players about as much as high ranked players want to play with low ranked players. I don't see how there's any fairness to forcing high ranked players to play with low ranked players.
AndrewSX
As said above, this:
-prolly will not happen.
-prolly will not solve anything.
-prolly will prolly give the final hit to this format.
I see your points tho (cause i'm one of the nearly r0 you consider).
Imo the "rank level" of a group could be used to split teams.
I mean, full r11 team going vs half r11 + half r10, r3 team vs half r4+half r2 and so on.
Aka, use the total rank level to have teams of similar experience face each other, instead of having a exp one stomp any (rare) newbs team, and maybe scale rewards with the total rank medium of teams involved in match, dunno.
Create some "tier" of HA in other words, newbs vs. newbs, exp vs. exp, mid vs. mid, uber-pvp-player vs. uber-pvp-player, u get the idea.
P.S:The lack of teams would makes something like this kinda pointless tho.
-prolly will not happen.
-prolly will not solve anything.
-prolly will prolly give the final hit to this format.
I see your points tho (cause i'm one of the nearly r0 you consider).
Imo the "rank level" of a group could be used to split teams.
I mean, full r11 team going vs half r11 + half r10, r3 team vs half r4+half r2 and so on.
Aka, use the total rank level to have teams of similar experience face each other, instead of having a exp one stomp any (rare) newbs team, and maybe scale rewards with the total rank medium of teams involved in match, dunno.
Create some "tier" of HA in other words, newbs vs. newbs, exp vs. exp, mid vs. mid, uber-pvp-player vs. uber-pvp-player, u get the idea.
P.S:The lack of teams would makes something like this kinda pointless tho.
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Del
Low ranked players want to play with low ranked players about as much as high ranked players want to play with low ranked players. I don't see how there's any fairness to forcing high ranked players to play with low ranked players.
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gremlin
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Originally Posted by lemming
So... you think that it's bad to want to play with better players in an organized team format?
(And before someone tries to quote me out of context: no, rank isn't any absolute determinant of skill, but a rank 11 player is more likely to know what to do than a rank 0 player.) |
Del
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
For the most part low ranked players dont mind playing with other low ranked player as long as they are not facing significantly higher ranked(exp) players
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Swingline
/notsigned
the maps need changing along with skill nerfs to make HA more attractive. the title system of HA shouldn't be touched in any way.
the maps need changing along with skill nerfs to make HA more attractive. the title system of HA shouldn't be touched in any way.
lemming
Del
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Originally Posted by lemming
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Reverend Dr
So how does it work when there are only 5 teams in HA? How could this possibly make anything better?
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Del
lolwhat? that's why they constantly whine about high ranked players not taking them, and refuse to start their own groups of low ranked players, then whine on forums about how they can't do HA since elitists don't let them on their teams? Yeah, right. Makes perfect since.
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Del
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
That is simply b/c they more or less likely will be facing higher ranked (exp) teams. Notice how easy it was to find groups for the 0 ranked players for the new pvp quests. Since there were so many "newbies" they really didnt care about rank..they just wanted to get in and fullfill their quests. In doing so there were lots of the groups having little to no rank (exp) fighting eachother...and it was actually fun....and if there were a way to promote this, it would remain fun..but as the quests run out it'll just go back to the same old same old
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Daesu
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Originally Posted by Del
Low ranked players want to play with low ranked players about as much as high ranked players want to play with low ranked players. I don't see how there's any fairness to forcing high ranked players to play with low ranked players.
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If nobody wants to play with low ranked player, then guess what would happen to the game?
Dead. As more high ranked players get bored and leave, there would not be any new blood into pvp because we all hate to party with low ranked player.
We should give an incentive to high ranked players to "show the ropes" by joining low ranked teams. Currently this incentive is missing, which is the point I am trying to make.
Without this incentive, if I am high ranked player, why should I help out the unwanted low ranked newbies? I can easily find a group with my high rank and take a lower risk to victory, using a team of all high ranked players.
So you end up with teams after teams that are formed with very high ranking players which completely obliterated rankless teams. This makes new players discouraged because nobody wants to help them and they just dont enjoy a game where they get defeated within 30s against a spike team everytime. Many PvEers unfortunately do not know PvP 101.
lemming
Simply put, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Technically, there already exists some incentive in cultivating new players - expanding your contact list, which is genuinely important in a format that is as reliant on pugging as HA. I can guarantee that it would be more popular if, well, most new players weren't like what Elektra Lucia describes: arrogant, presumptuous, and mostly unwilling to learn.
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Originally Posted by Daesu
Guess what? No account is created with already a high ranking inserted in.
If nobody wants to play with low ranked player, then guess what would happen to the game? Dead. As more high ranked players get bored and leave, there would not be any new blood into pvp because we all hate to party with low ranked player. We should give an incentive to high ranked players to "show the ropes" by joining low ranked teams. Currently this incentive is missing, which is the point I am trying to make. Without this incentive, if I am high ranked player, why should I help out the unwanted low ranked newbies? I can easily find a group with my high rank and take a lower risk to victory, using a team of all high ranked players. |
Daesu
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Originally Posted by lemming
Technically, there already exists some incentive in cultivating new players - expanding your contact list, which is genuinely important in a format that is as reliant on pugging as HA. I can guarantee that it would be more popular if, well, most new players weren't like what Elektra Lucia describes: arrogant, presumptuous, and mostly unwilling to learn.
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Most high ranking PvPer do not think that a contact list of rankless PvE players is that big a deal really. Otherwise, we wouldn't have this problem of rankless players not able to find a team in the first place.
ANet needs to step in and fix their own game! Face it, without incentive rankless players are just more risky to take in HA than high rank players. They are not dumb, if you know that then so do most people in HA. So why would they want to take that risk when they (being high ranked), do NOT need to?
This is why high ranking players tend to group with other high ranking players. The present format actually ENCOURAGES this.
Del
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Originally Posted by Daesu
Guess what? No account is created with already a high ranking inserted in.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daesu
If nobody wants to play with low ranked player, then guess what would happen to the game?
Dead. As more high ranked players get bored and leave, there would not be any new blood into pvp because we all hate to party with low ranked player. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daesu
We should give an incentive to high ranked players to "show the ropes" by joining low ranked teams. Currently this incentive is missing, which is the point I am trying to make.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daesu
Without this incentive, if I am high ranked player, why should I help out the unwanted low ranked newbies? I can easily find a group with my high rank and take a lower risk to victory, using a team of all high ranked players.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daesu
So you end up with teams after teams that are formed with very high ranking players which completely obliterated rankless teams. This makes new players discouraged because nobody wants to help them and they just dont enjoy a game where they get defeated within 30s against a spike team everytime. Many PvEers unfortunately do not know PvP 101.
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lemming
Everything Del said.
It's a team game. Rookies in professional sports see playing time because they have a vested interest in helping them improve as players. Why would you expect anyone with experience to help a random PvEer get better at HA or GvG? Altruism?
After all those complaints in the GvG in Crisis thread about there being a lack of instruction for what's indeed a rather complex format, I did my best to offer some introductory-level instruction. What came of that? People just weren't very interested, even when resources were proffered.
It's a team game. Rookies in professional sports see playing time because they have a vested interest in helping them improve as players. Why would you expect anyone with experience to help a random PvEer get better at HA or GvG? Altruism?
After all those complaints in the GvG in Crisis thread about there being a lack of instruction for what's indeed a rather complex format, I did my best to offer some introductory-level instruction. What came of that? People just weren't very interested, even when resources were proffered.
Reverend Dr
Used to take new people into HA. About 2 years ago we could bring 2-3 fresh players and do pretty well. Currently bringing one experienced player that just hasn't played with us enough to gel with our team is far more of a handicap.
Fate Crusher
Sorry that I haven't read any of the thread apart from OP, this topic has come up too often that I've most likely read everyone's comments countless times already in different threads.
High ranked teams don't form with PUGs in the first place. Your friends list is so important in HA, because you keep track of certain players who you know are good and will play for you. Even if a random PUG is r11, if no one on the team knows that person, they're seen just as low and any other low ranked player.
I did go through a phase of helping low-ranked PUGs by carrying them as backline. I quickly gave up when a team flamed me for, after 20 minutes vs rspike in UW i decided to stop infusing because we hadn't even gotten a kill. They all went on DnD and whispered me on several accounts. Epic. There have been many uproars throughout the years of players complaining that they don't get the chance. Problem is, these PvE converts are so stuck into their ways, they don't even understand Guild Wars gameplay. Just like how people want to solo PvE areas... This game is unique and some players are too ignorant to see it. I've found the better PvP players, and players in general, are those who had Guild Wars as their first online game. It made them more open to the format and competitive nature.
Sorry to rant on, but I'm basically explaining that the lowbobs of today are mostly terrible. No offence to those who possess some skill. For example, quite a lot of players will LFG as a specific build. Really? Lingering Curses Necro LFG? This will be the very same person who will QQ on forums and to his friends that HA is elitest. Really?
The incentive you suggest is only to create merged teams with high and low ranked players. This doesn't solve the problem in general. The format needs to attract entire teams of new players that believe there is some sort of gain. You need low ranked players forming with low ranked. And then to subsequently enter and fight versus other low ranked teams. As the format stands now, there are just so few teams that you're always playing against die hard HAers who need to learn to quit, or fame farming wannabes (BBway guilds LOL).
The simple solution is for teams to be fighting teams of similar strengths, which is ultimately what Heroes Ascent (Tournament style progression) is supposed to do, slowly weed out teams until the best hold halls. But you need more teams to accomplish this.
It's dead. It's like GvG, only worse because of map skips and lack of build balancing from Anet.
High ranked teams don't form with PUGs in the first place. Your friends list is so important in HA, because you keep track of certain players who you know are good and will play for you. Even if a random PUG is r11, if no one on the team knows that person, they're seen just as low and any other low ranked player.
I did go through a phase of helping low-ranked PUGs by carrying them as backline. I quickly gave up when a team flamed me for, after 20 minutes vs rspike in UW i decided to stop infusing because we hadn't even gotten a kill. They all went on DnD and whispered me on several accounts. Epic. There have been many uproars throughout the years of players complaining that they don't get the chance. Problem is, these PvE converts are so stuck into their ways, they don't even understand Guild Wars gameplay. Just like how people want to solo PvE areas... This game is unique and some players are too ignorant to see it. I've found the better PvP players, and players in general, are those who had Guild Wars as their first online game. It made them more open to the format and competitive nature.
Sorry to rant on, but I'm basically explaining that the lowbobs of today are mostly terrible. No offence to those who possess some skill. For example, quite a lot of players will LFG as a specific build. Really? Lingering Curses Necro LFG? This will be the very same person who will QQ on forums and to his friends that HA is elitest. Really?
The incentive you suggest is only to create merged teams with high and low ranked players. This doesn't solve the problem in general. The format needs to attract entire teams of new players that believe there is some sort of gain. You need low ranked players forming with low ranked. And then to subsequently enter and fight versus other low ranked teams. As the format stands now, there are just so few teams that you're always playing against die hard HAers who need to learn to quit, or fame farming wannabes (BBway guilds LOL).
The simple solution is for teams to be fighting teams of similar strengths, which is ultimately what Heroes Ascent (Tournament style progression) is supposed to do, slowly weed out teams until the best hold halls. But you need more teams to accomplish this.
It's dead. It's like GvG, only worse because of map skips and lack of build balancing from Anet.
Our Virus
Incentive for high ranked to teach/play with low ranks - more people to play with when your core team isn't online.
Daesu
Not all newbies are people who are unwilling to learn and assuming that ALL newbies are like that is probably an exaggeration. All I have to do to prove you wrong, is to find just ONE newbie that is willing to learn right?
However, newbies don't wear hats that they says who is willing to learn and who is not. When looking for high rank players to party with, they would all say that they are willing to learn. It is up to you if you want to give them a chance.
What my suggestion is trying to do is to stir the "soup" of pvp players a little rather than having a large concentration of high ranking players who only parties with one another. This makes it more difficult for inexperienced new comers to gain a foothold.
Anyway, I don't expect people with higher ranks to like my suggestion. Why? Because they lose their edge. Why change when they can continue to group with their other high ranking buddies and beat the crap out of rankless teams for equal rewards right now? Let other people climb the slopes rather than make it more level.
That is why I think the decision has to finally rest on ANet's shoulders. Do they want a change that would make the distribution of ranked players more uniform among teams and make HA more conducive for new comers? Or do they want the new comers to really stick it out for a long time trying to find people to party with them or give up pvp after feeling frustrated that no experienced people are willing to party them?
However, newbies don't wear hats that they says who is willing to learn and who is not. When looking for high rank players to party with, they would all say that they are willing to learn. It is up to you if you want to give them a chance.
What my suggestion is trying to do is to stir the "soup" of pvp players a little rather than having a large concentration of high ranking players who only parties with one another. This makes it more difficult for inexperienced new comers to gain a foothold.
Anyway, I don't expect people with higher ranks to like my suggestion. Why? Because they lose their edge. Why change when they can continue to group with their other high ranking buddies and beat the crap out of rankless teams for equal rewards right now? Let other people climb the slopes rather than make it more level.
That is why I think the decision has to finally rest on ANet's shoulders. Do they want a change that would make the distribution of ranked players more uniform among teams and make HA more conducive for new comers? Or do they want the new comers to really stick it out for a long time trying to find people to party with them or give up pvp after feeling frustrated that no experienced people are willing to party them?
Essence Snow
just a question...Why do the alot of ppl immediately shoot down every idea anyone has to "help" pvp? I don't really see any other ideas comming from those who are so quick to say "thats stupid" or "feel entitled much". If you don't have any other options or any constructive input on the matter....you're not helping the situation.
Del
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
If you don't have any other options or any constructive input on the matter....you're not helping the situation.
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Reverend Dr
With the current state of powercreep a new player is such a huge liability. One player that doesn't gel with a team is enough to turn a great team into a terrible team. It was not always this way. If you want to blame someone blame Anet as every update is making mistakes less forgiving, which in turn makes less experienced players even less desirable.
The other assumption people keep making is that any attempt to "help" or "reach out" must be about grabbing PuG's from ID1. Despite this at best being terribly ineffective and at worst a complete waste of everyone's time.
The other assumption people keep making is that any attempt to "help" or "reach out" must be about grabbing PuG's from ID1. Despite this at best being terribly ineffective and at worst a complete waste of everyone's time.
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
With the current state of powercreep a new player is such a huge liability. One player that doesn't gel with a team is enough to turn a great team into a terrible team. It was not always this way. If you want to blame someone blame Anet as every update is making mistakes less forgiving, which in turn makes less experienced players even less desirable.
The other assumption people keep making is that any attempt to "help" or "reach out" must be about grabbing PuG's from ID1. Despite this at best being terribly ineffective and at worst a complete waste of everyone's time. |
Many new comers have told me that they cant even find a group in HA and it is just boring to stand there and LFG for longer than 30 minutes when they could just RA immediately, or party up with their heroes for some PvE.
All these are the result of rank discrimination in HA that ANet has a role in building. They ought to fix it. Not everyone is in a HA pvp guild with nice experienced guild members to help them.
Swingline
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
just a question...Why do the alot of ppl immediately shoot down every idea anyone has to "help" pvp?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
I don't really see any other ideas comming from those who are so quick to say "thats stupid" or "feel entitled much". If you don't have any other options or any constructive input on the matter....you're not helping the situation.
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Has it ever been suggested to make HA 2 random teams of 4 as a team of 8? Syncing wouldn't be a huge problem either as you could just shuffle teams as you change maps so a sync team of 8 would get shuffled after the first map.
Del
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Originally Posted by Daesu
I think this is a start to improving HA.
Many new comers have told me that they cant even find a group in HA and it is just boring to stand there and LFG for longer than 30 minutes when they could just RA immediately, or party up with their heroes for some PvE. All these are the result of rank discrimination in HA that ANet has a role in building. They ought to fix it. Not everyone is in a HA pvp guild with nice experienced guild members to help them. |
Reverend Dr
Nah man, don't you get it. The only problem is rank discrimination. So clearly the solution to rank discrimination is for the match selection process to rank discriminate.
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
Nah man, don't you get it. The only problem is rank discrimination. So clearly the solution to rank discrimination is for the match selection process to rank discriminate.
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Swingline
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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
Nah man, don't you get it. The only problem is rank discrimination. So clearly the solution to rank discrimination is for the match selection process to rank discriminate.
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Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Swingline
It seems logical but HA elites would be downright pissed to see all their hard work become deluded. There may also have to be adjustments to the title so it doesn't take a decade to reach r15. If this were implemented however the people whining in HA on the first day would be lulzy.
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Daesu
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Originally Posted by Swingline
It seems logical but HA elites would be downright pissed to see all their hard work become deluded. There may also have to be adjustments to the title so it doesn't take a decade to reach r15. If this were implemented however the people whining in HA on the first day would be lulzy.
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This will form an incentive for high ranking players to join low ranked teams so they can get more rewards should they beat a team that is higher ranked than theirs.
Of course, there would still be high rankers who prefer to continue to exploit an easy unfair match where experienced high ranking players group together (with their Vent and organized spikes) against newbie teams. They can still do that, but their rewards, if they win, should be lower than if the newbie team wins against them.
Fawxy Lawxy
So we're suggesting that high ranked teams be forced to put some low ranked people on their team to drop the team average and therefore obtain more rewards?
This could be ridiculously abused with alt accounts.
This isn't a playground and we're not all children. We can't be forced to play nice with the other kids by our Mom (Anet?). There will always be better players forming groups and excluding bad players. In every game.
This could be ridiculously abused with alt accounts.
This isn't a playground and we're not all children. We can't be forced to play nice with the other kids by our Mom (Anet?). There will always be better players forming groups and excluding bad players. In every game.