Do you think Fort Aspenwood will ever be rebalanced?

It's pretty clear from the wait times alone that Fort Aspenwood has become a seriously one sided arena. There is a reason far more people play the Kurzick side than the Luxon side, and it's not because they love playing a monk.

Fort Aspenwood was probably never going to be a perfectly balanced arena - with random teams (which is one of the most balancing and unbalancing factors) and two unique win conditions for each side, it was going to be impossible to have both win conditions equally as challenging as the other, but a combination of bugs, AI exploits and the defensive nature of the map have all combined to result in a pretty heavy favour towards the Kurzick players. This is why wait times on that side of the map are so long.

Instead of requiring Kurzick players to take mines and run amber to Gunther win, they simply have to heal and protect gates and kill anyone who comes close to their green gate or Gunther. With a random team with varied experience, it is quite common to have only one or two people attacking the green gate, resulting in them being easy to shut down.

On top of this, the Luxon requirements to win are much harder. You actually need to do something - you need to kill a lot of NPCs and travel a decent distance while fighting through a team of players equal to your own in addition to an entire map designed to support your enemy. Luxon players need to actively work their way to the green gate and gunther, making sure to hold a res shrine and send in turtles along the way. They need to know when to prioritise NPC targets (such as gate NPCs or mesmers) and when to run past or ignore Kurzick players who are between them and their win condition. Kurzick players simply need to attack the nearest target to the green gate to win. It's easily possible for an entire team of clueless Kurzick players to win the arena simply by killing any Luxons that come close to the inside of their base. The depth of knowledge for a Luxon team to work towards a win condition is often unconventional (attacking the nearest blue dot is an incredibly easy way to lose) and thus not friendly towards newer players.

Not only do you resurrect further away than your opponent, but your only NPC support (to "balance" out home field advantage + tonnes of NPCs) is an incredibly easily exploited, distracted or killed turtle. I'm not going to argue an offensive turtle, when hitting the right targets, isn't a huge advantage. Two siege turtles firing on Gunther and the two gatekeepers are often enough to win with a decently offensive team (getting that far you have to play better than your opponent anyway) unless your opponents have three or more healers and even then you have a good chance if the turtles remain alive and fire on Gunther. The problem is the turtle can be "stalled" with a limitless number of AI exploiting builds, or in the case of the orange gate, by standing in a spot which can't be reached by the turtle at all, causing it to fire at the Kurzick exploiter but never even doing as much as one hp damage. It is also out of reach of Luxon players until they break the inside gate and then run past (and aggro) the ranger NPC in addition to whatever players are defending the AI exploting person stalling the turtle. Even if that person is killed, they res seconds later and can easily return to the same spot to stall the turtle again, often running a spirit lord build offering a huge ally wide buff to a large portion of the map while negating an entire turtle offensive team with little to no risk of being countered in any way.

On top of this there are many other minor ways to exploit the turtle AI to constantly aggro them resulting in them never moving forward and effectively stalling a team which relies on the turtle squads for support when attempting to break through the base defenses. This is before you even consider the reality that in four out of five matches the purple turtle will stall on the outside gate, refusing to move forward and effectively resulting in a seriously crippled offense on that side of the map for the rest of the game.

With all of these bugs and exploits favouring the Kurzick side, it's not uncommon to see entire matches where Kurzick players never leave the base, one player stalling the orange turtle while the purple turtle is bugged and the monks supporting NPCs while the rest of the Kurzick DPS easily picks off any Luxons who attempt to advance without the support of a turtle, into an enemy base filled with an equally powerful team of players and a bunch of NPCs. These matches are still winnable but they are dramatically weighted in favour of the Kurzick side.

On top of all this, because the map favours a defensive Kurzick side, it's also quite common to see teams of three to five monks which automatically results in a win, regardless of how skilled the Luxon players are. There are always counters to monks, but when you have a random team of eight, it's rare to have the adequate counters and offensive builds which can stand a chance against a large team of monks. Since the last big FA balance update, the match times were made much shorter for a Kurzick win, not by encouraging them to run more amber or actively do something, just a flat decrease in the time they need to defend for, while at the same time most of the above turtle AI exploits were introduced (increased aggro range resulting in turtles firing on players they simply can't reach etc). This forces Luxon offense to overcome all of the above challenges in a shorter period of time.

While Luxon players tend to have a need for a slightly more diverse team (usually favouring at least one, preferably no more than two healers, nuking elementalists and players capable of taking down monks, preferably as few melee as possible due to the heavy melee hate and high knowledge base required for any melee to be effective) the Kurzick side has several easy exploit builds they often run (spirit lord, turtle aggro and stall dervish) a heavy emphasis on monks or ritualists and pretty much any DPS class will also be incredibly effective (but mesmers shutting down aggressive Luxon nukers and turtle stalling/killing ledge rangers are also incredibly effective).

The arena is highly imbalanced on many levels with many easy exploits resulting in the turtles becoming usless and Luxon offense being crippled. There is almost no incentive for Kurzick players to bring aggressive builds (which involve running amber to Gunther to reduce match lengths) when it's so easy to defend and cripple the Luxon offense.


At this point in the game's life, do you think ArenaNet will ever rebalance the arena to give more incentives to Kurzick players to be less defensive and more aggressive (instead of favouring large monk teams which would cripple you in any other PvP or PvE part of the game) and hopefully replace the turtle mechanic with something that actually works? They have tried several times in the past to fix the turtle stall bugs, but it consistently happens in almost every other match. Is FA too low of a priority to get the attention it has needed since Factions launch considering the other projects the Live Team is working on? It's current state is more akin to a beta testing arena with all the bugs and exploits rather than a ready to be released arena.

I don't believe it would be re-balanced for awhile it at all. I'm pretty sure there too busy of course with the sequel and Winds of Change. I guess the only choice is to go in with melee and caster counters, but the favor does seem to lean to one side. It's all random enter so not like you can control the outcome of your team anyway.

Unless an FA fix is actually part of the plan for Winds Of Change, I don't expect it to ever improve.

being able to switch sides balances things out. you can either wait longer for a better chance to win, or wait shorter for a worse chance to win.

no one is forced to be on the worse side, and there is a point where it's disadvantageous to be on the better side

Bad players pick easy win, good players like a "challenge." balanced enough as is IMO.

Balance is about an even distribution, to say one is good for bad players and one is good for players who want a challenge is to essentially state the arena is unbalanced. When players are basically playing for rewards and are choosing a side of the arena to play on simply because it gives greater rewards (because it wins more often due to imbalance) something is wrong.

It's more challenging to keep a team alive in high end PvP (or even PvE) if you only bring restoration rits instead of hybird monks. Good skilled players will play monks because challenge should be from equally skilled players opposing each other under similalrly weighted conditions, not because you've picked something that is handicapped by poor game design.

The only decision people are making these days is do they want easy and likely wins with fewer matches (due to other people wanting the easy wins) or do they want more losses with harder wins, more losses but shorter wait times due to the high frequency of frustrating matches (ai exploits, matches with predetermined outcomes due to how many monks spawn on the other side and turtle bugs). That's not balance.

I think you're obsessing with FA. There are a number of faster ways to obtain faction points.

it won't be rebalanced

Well then buddy I got 2 solutions for you.
1) Learn real pvp
2) Learn real alliance faction farming

It has been a long known fact that the kurzicks have the edge here, but as it's in kurzick lands maybe they were supposed to.
My guild changed to luxon to start on that title and tbh, i win alot more JQ as a luxon now, and it's in luxon lands.
PvP is about the challenge. Balancing it wouldn't create much of that. I don't think Anet should balance it, they haven't since factions came out and hope they don't start now.

Hell no. I've been playing it for a couple years almost non stop and every post or something I've wrote on the wiki about it is ignored by developers and the community at large.

What it needs more than a rebalance are random npcs. It is just WAY too pro caster. The things that Mesmers and Necros can do from either side stands so strong against melee and other professions it's ridiculous.

I also completely agree about Luxons needing to be more knowledgable. That is absolutely correct. Sucks that most are dumb as a bag of rocks and unwilling to learn. I even have done some grief testing where I'd spam aneurysm and open free gates, but no, they STILL lose. They even attack griefers, even down to if you explained what the skill does. I don't use the word noob since I think it's stupid but those are the actions of a true noob. There is no defense you can make for that kind of behavior. Pathetic and yes, justifies the Suxon term to also being accurate. I also see a HIGH amount of forgotten turtles, it is a constant annoyance. I have done testing on that too and it can be forgot for usually 30s+ which is a big amount of time... people don't get it in their head that you go when the squad dies. IMMEDIATELY. Yes YOU, you died first so go. I don't care what you role is. If nobody dies, somebody call it first. It's like my job to release turtles. Forget that. And people also can't understand that you have the WHOLE GAME FOR GREEN. Attacking green first accomplishes nothing 9 times out of 10. You all think you are special or have a killer build, but you nuked in seconds... they just try it over and over. Clear the center first, it cannot be fixed. Very few should be allowed to break away and go nuts: domination spam, SF anything, touchers, anybody else get the hell out.

Anet hates Luxons. No idea why they are biggoted but it's so easy to see, anything else is just ignorance.

In FA Kurzicks get an advantage AND larger reward when they win.

In JQ, it may take place on Luxon territory, but Luxons get no advantage... and they get no more faction than Kurzicks if they win. And the ONLY reason why LUxons are winning now more is cause Kurzicks are pouring over from their side due to Imperial faction, period.

If both sides are not balanced then there is no challenge for one side... they have it easy. That goes against what you said.

Sure, FA could be rebalanced soon.

But it will never be balanced. By design, that is impossible.

The whole idea was flawed from the start.

Factions was an attempt to get more people interested in pvp by making it part of the pve game, part way through pve and suddenly you are offered a pvp experience.
To make it more complicated the side you were currently playing was the side you ended up fighting for in the pvp, guilds allied with one side or the other and fought for control of outposts, the front line of the pve map changed almost hourly.

It was an interesting experiment but it failed, bound to really because to play the pve part of the game you eventually had to explore all areas and suddenly found yourself on the opposing side.

Hopefully experiment will never be repeated, fixed nope rebalanced maybe but to what end.

I have been playing FA since Factions came out, and even more so within the last month or so since there are threads like this popping up every other day. TBH, tracking all my wins/losses playing from either side, I am pretty much 50/50, which tells me that (as mentioned by others here and in the countless other threads), the true unbalance comes from the players playing the match. When I can literally have 3-4 of the Luxons chasing me (as Kurzick) in circles around the outside of the fort, then of course they are going to loose. The problem stems from the Luxons not playing smart. I have been in matches where half the Kurzes were monks and we still won the match as Luxons, because we worked as a team and played smart.

The last stretch where I really played the heck out of the area a week or so ago, I saw 12 straight losses on the Kurzick side. Yes there are some issues in the arena, such as the turtles sticking (out of over 200 matches, only saw it 3 times, though), and other things like Rangers being able to cap the orange quarry from inside the fort, but all relatively minor and all have been overcome in numerous matches I have played.

Hanok

I love playing the Luxon side. It may be unbalanced, but the wins are so much sweeter. Wait times are less and to win we only have to kill Gunther, not wait for the clock to run down. Luxon side wins more often than you think.

Nah, don't think they will rebalance it.

If after Balthazar and you are a Luxon, go do JQ.

Me, last two levels of Luxon up to 12 ran Mount Quinkai HM VQ. Get about 11,000 points per run in what? 20 minutes or less. Do this each day for couple months.

Shame really. Love Fort Aspenwood. But if you are Luxon, you are doomed at FA!

I don't think they will after all this time. They should though, because it's one of the few fun formats with PvP elements that I enjoy. And based on the number of people playing it, I'm not the only one.

They will balance it whe the servers shut down

The turtle bug / door heals seem simple but for some reason they are not, or atleast off the radar

One advantage is you do not wait to long to play as a luxon

There's been thousands of threads like this in Sardelac Sanitarium about balancing FA and fixing the "turtle bugs." I usually play the Luxon side because I find it easier to win. Seriously, you just have to roll a character with a high-dps spike and it's not difficult. The Gatekeepers don't have insane amounts of health, just like, 600. Plus they don't really react fast enough with prot spirit to be a gamebreaker. As long as the Kurzicks didn't get 3 bond monks on their team, it's not a hard win. Also, from personal experience, the turtles only get stuck about once every 20 matches from the Luxon side.

In a nutshell, I think FA is as balanced as it could possibly be. I typically win about 80% of my games on the Luxon side. Just be intelligent and take a decent build. As long as you don't get any leechers/ragequitters on your team, there's enough PvE noobs playing on either side to rack up easy faction.

Yup, pretty much. Like I said, the Luxons had a 12 game winning streak in the stretch of time I was playing a week or so ago - I started out as Kurz and after the first 5 losses jumped to the Lux side and won the next 7.

Most of my title faction for both sides has come from playing FA, especially since JQ was dead the first couple of years, and the PvE faction only accounted for the first couple of tiers, so the Luxon side really isn't all that bad - as many of us keep saying and pointing out.

Hanok

I can't really be balanced unless both sides have the same objectives or take turns with different objectives.

Balancing shield and swrod vs shield and sword is easier than balancing just a shield vs just a sword.

What an extremely lazy solution. Well done.

No, I don't think it's going to be fixed. If that day ever comes, I probably won't care since I'll be playing Guild Wars 2.

it would be cool if they made a fort for the luxons, and each team had to assault the other's fort and kill guarding npcs until they reached a vital one at the very back. think of like dota/league of legends for guild wars. i would up the team size to like 12 on 12 or 16 on 16 then.


EDIT: oh lol i just realized my suggestion sounds very similar to gvg./facepalm

I swear to god it sounds like you are talking about a different arena. Over 200 matches and you only saw the turtle stall bug 3 times? You are an insanely lucky fluke. I have days where I see it every match for 8 matches in a row. If you only see 3/200 you either have a Kurzick killing it when it stalls or someone doing the weird aggro thing that unstalls it (sometimes if it is stalled, aggroing it will cause it to move again, but most Kurzicks leave it alone and focus on the other side once it stalls).

I have played as a Luxon far more than as a Kurzick and both sides on several classes to get rank 12 Luxon in here (because I enjoyed playing when I had a good team and didn't get screwed by leechers and leavers or bugs). I can consistently get 10+ wins in a row when I spawn on Kurzick teams with 1 monk. I can only do the same when I spawn on a Luxon team with knowledgeable aggressive players against only zero or one Kurzick monk and an unsuspecting Kurzick side (lots of rare variables). I can usually win as a Kurzick simply by running a spirit spammer by the teleporter, never moving all match causing the Luxons to funnel through the purple gate while I stall the orange turtle and passively defend all the NPCs on that side making it very difficult for the average player to break through without turtle support. My team picks them off with a focused offense as they desperately try to push through. The map strongly favours the Kurzicks due to them having to do very little travelling to accomplish their goals.

I wish I had your experience, I really do.

In my experience, if the Luxon have two decent healers that can keep themselves and the turtles up, and some decent damage to get people off the ledges, they win unless the Kurzicks have 3+ healers. If they have that many healers it is near impossible to keep all of them down long enough to kill Gunther, even with both turtles, because of the short re spawn and the closeness of the shrine. I have seen matches take place almost entirely inside the green gate with both turtles inside and still the Kurzicks win because they have three or more healers.

During zaishen days and double weekends this gets a lot worse as there are a ton of people rolling monks on Kurzick side for easy wins. I have also noticed that the Luxon side rarely has good healers that can keep themselves and the turtles up.

The simplest solution to me seems to be adding diminishing returns to the respawn timer. If someone is killed within, let's say 1 minute of their last death, add an aditional 10 seconds to the respawn.

To fix FA:

1) End 'Heal Wars'. I know it's a random format but it shouldn't be too painstaking to implement some kind of algorithim to restrict the extreme healing/defensive spirit spamming that goes on. It can be impossible, impossible, impossible to counteract with any sort of builds or tactics. The Kurzick side is much more guilty of this since their goal is to defend the Fort. If any developers tested this they'd know about this concern.

2) Fix the goddamn turtle stalling bug. Someone posted on the new shiny official forum about this yet none of the staff there have posted to even acknowledge it. The Luxon side is at a massive disadvantage without these reptilian retards.

3.1) Let it be 8v8. Often times only 7 people load on one or both sides which plays a great part in determining the outcome. Also, leeching and leaving is still a problem which hasn't been addressed satisfactorily and has the same effect as the above. Bring on the ban scythe, please.
3.2) If the ban scythe is out of order then let me quit and reload an 8v8 map without being penalized. A 10-minute doomed match of perpetual resurrecting and dying is a long and boring process over which I have no control. The FA people will not resign when provided with any degree of reasoning and common sense I give them. My proposal: if one team member is reported for leeching by 1/3 of the team or someone quits, then let me quit without accruing dishonor. I can't simply go afk because the game punishes me for that too. I don't appreciate being compelled to sit and twiddle keys for 10 minutes in a match that my team is certainly condemned to lose in. I did nothing wrong - punish the quitters and leechers more harshly.

4) Add an NPC to allow people to explore the FA (and JQ) maps in their own instance so that they can do cartography on their own time.

5) Remove the "Cannot attack. ((Monster only))" thing from newly respawned NPCs.

6) If a player is either "offline" or ignoring, then don't let them PM. It legitimizes verbal abuse.

7) Replace the Kurzick Mesmers' Psychic Instability with the PvP version.

Oh please. you go out of the way to look at how people play, insult the luxon side and think your way better?

Unblanced or just to many people that can't play?
Cus it is srs easy luxon side when you sync with a few people

You're one of many reasons why FA is terrible.

Rebalancing FA would involve effort. Expending that effort would involve hiring personnel capable of making reasoned judgments about both the problems facing the format and the correct approach to solving those problems.

So, in short, no.

I play the game for fun. yep that right FUN. I play whatever i feel like playing. It gets a bit boring when you get people saying how things should be done. If i want to cap bases i cap bases if i wanna go kill some players i do, or i play a more support role. Guides are great but i play my way. We all like to win, but why can't people just give the game a break? After six years of playing and being called a noob is great fun too.

Bingo. It's just a case of temporarily reallocating those personnel to competitive missions. But then again they're very busy making pets and tonics.

that's retarded.

if the (expected faction gained)/time is equal for both sides, then it is balanced. none of us has the data to say it is balanced or not, but they do

Aspenwood can be a two-map rotation, in which teams are randomly assigned to a map. One map would be exactly as it is now. The second map would have the sides reversed, with the NPCs simply reskinned and name swapped. Tack on Enslaved to the names of the Siege Turtles and Juggernaut on the reversed map and call it a day.

Relore it as a contested zone. Luxons don't just want to halt the development of the Judgment weapon - they want it for their own use.


In spite of the fundamental design flaws and persistent bugs, at least people won't be able to play to them more than half the time. The number of players should equalize more organically without gameplay advantages or specific faction rewards.
This shouldn't require nearly as much in the way of resources as overhauling the map and reprogramming AI from scratch. It may not be ideal, but it is simple and fair.

Because I dont play it? True if I would play i it would become freaking awsome.

But srs if there is one thing that OP it are turtles. And all that QQ about they heal gunther need to learn wich skills are at there disposel and how to use them. For example if they have bonders what so ever.
Gaze of Contemp
Well of Profane

If they have many monks
Lingering curse
Barbs
Soul barbs
Soul Bind

And that is just one proffesion

Maybe if the player base wasn't filled with trolls like you with non grounded statements and only cry this game might actualy be fun to play. So in al you are the reason why people start hating this game more and more.

The problem is that the curses line is pretty awefull when not teambuilded around it. In other words, as long as JQ/FA are random (teams), the curses attribute line will never be viable, as straightforward damage is much better than degen. The healing penalty of LC is nice, but still doesn't come close to actual AoE damage. Also when you'll need it most (against many monks), you'll find that you just can't hit enough people with it. Predatory Season would work 10 times better...

Well of the Profane is highly conditional, but does fall within a nice attribute line. It's definatly viable, but there's still so much other factors you've got to think about. Damage, non enchant healing, etc.

A large problem with FA is that there isn't "one build to rule them all" for Luxon side, whereas there is one for Kurzick. Essentially, if Kurzicks have enough Monks, they will not die. All these people talking about Turtles raping Monks and stuff clearly don't know how to Monk. Cover Enchantments, interrupting siege (Leech says hi) are already 2 VERY viable options. Every Monk has got atleast 1 throwaway enchant at his disposal, most likely Patient Spirit.

If every player were to suddenly run bars "for the best of the team" (Read: Not play the stuff you want to play, but the stuff that would win you the game) the truth is that on Kurzick side, everyone could play Monk and get away with it, as I've seen 3 Monks hold up Kurzick side for the full duration of the match with 2 afk'ers. (And believe me, Luxon side wasn't terrible by any means)

On Luxon side, if you have too much Monks, you won't kill jack shit, especially against teams with many Monks aswell, which usually means autowin for Kurzick. If you don't have enough Monks, you'll find yourself having to break the Kurzick fortress (and Guntah) without any aid from turtles. This can still turn out a win if the Kurzicks don't have a good Monk.

For the Luxon side to be succesfull, (And that's already assuming Kurzicks don't have many Monks) you need very specific teamsetup, and as such "buildwarsing" only works if you get matched up with people who fill the other parts of the puzzle.

You could bring your Curses necro, but find yourself without a single physical damage dealer, incapable of even forcing the Monk to heal, rendering most of your curses useless. You could bring big damage, only to find an Air of Enchantment Monk keeping up NPC's with ease.


TL;DR: A conqsequence of the non-mirror format (each side different objectives) is that "Monks" are the Kurzick profession. (rit healers work to, or healers of any sort) Luxons need a variety of things, ranging from extreme defence to extreme offence, and there is no "golden" bar which could win you every game.

=> It's impossible to "build wars" on Luxon side because you won't know who or what you'll get teamed up with. Whereas on Kurzick side, a Monk is always welcome, the more the merryer even. As a result, if people really wanted to everyone could play Monk on Kurzick side, and you'dd loose probably less than 1% of the Matches.

Do you think Fort Aspenwood will ever be rebalanced?: No.

I still play FA every now and then, but JQ is more balanced than that because the objective and difficulties are the same on each side.

1. Luxon suck.
There is no way to get around this. Most of the games that are lost are lost because the players run shitty builds, don't know what to attack (not WHO, but WHAT!), are afraid to go into the Fort AND refuse to listen to people that do know how to play the arena.
They also refuse to resign (when the team isn't good enough to win - which, is most of the times) even if resigning after they breach the purple and orange gates would grant the team 2k Imperial faction (on top of the kill-rewards). Breaching these gates happens at some 20% so just calling it quits then would allow the Luxon to gain unhealthy amounts of faction due to the lack of a waiting time on their side.

2.
On top of the Luxon sucking there's also the problem of an imbalanced map. But this doesn't play a role often enough, because as I said, most of the time the Luxon lose because they are so insanely bad.
To fix that (and it NEEDS to be fixed, because one match lost due to the map when you SHOULDN'T have lost, is one match lost too many), the Kurzick need an active objective. The simplest I can come up with is to demand that they carry in a certain amount of amber - amber from Orange/Purple mine is worth 1 point, amber from the Green one is worth 2 points.
If the Kurzick fail to bring in enough amber and the Luxon fail to kill Gunther the match would end in a draw, contrary to the current situation where the Kurzick always win. That would demand that the Kurzick open gates and it would demand that Kurzick also have offensive classes on their team.
I imagine some 20 points worth of amber should be the requirement because you can expect some 5+ amber from the first rush and if the Kurzick were to go after the Green mine in the first rush they would be very close to meeting the partial win-criteria right from the start (and then they'd just need to barricade themselves behind closes gates again) IF the number was much lower. But I guess this number could be fine-tuned later on - implementing the change would be the time consuming part, just changing the number from 20 to 18 later on shouldn't be a problem.
What I'd then also do is add an additional way for the Kurzick to win - if they bring in a certain amount of amber, the match is over even if the Vengeance hasn't reached 100. That would give overly offensive Kurzick teams a hint of a chance, compared to pretty much auto-losing right now.