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Originally Posted by Skyy High
Are you all so jaded by PvE skills and consumables that you can't recognize that a 20 second recharge on a skill that greatly rewards skillful use it a good thing?
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Update - Friday, July 22, 2011
Essence Snow
Wenspire
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| Are you all so jaded by PvE skills and consumables that you can't recognize that a 20 second recharge on a skill that greatly rewards skillful use it a good thing? |
lemming
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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor
My Healing Burst heals all party members at 13 Divine Favor for 40 health, heals an ally 150. Recharges every 4 seconds, costs 5 energy.
Shield Guardian heals all party members at 13 protection prayers for 40 health, blocks 1 freaking attack. Recharges every 25 seconds, costs 10 energy. By the time this skill recharges, Healing Burst could be cast, say, 5 times, healing everyone the same amount Shield Guardian does on top of Healing Bursts +150 heal. |
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Not by PvE skills....it's that they get changed b/c of PvP....and mostly by GvG. Maybe 10% plays GvG....and thats generous...wtf should 90% of the game's population be effected so much by a format that so few play? Imo it should be reversed...let the 10% deal with the changes that plz 90% of the game. Lets be honest PvE pays the bills...Anet needs to cater moreso to it.
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Essence Snow
No what?..No doesn't explain anything...plz clarify^^
Sankt Hallvard
I think "no" in this case can be roughly translated to "go back to pve". [insert whatever smiley you find appropriate here in order to avoid thread derail.]
Elnino
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Not by PvE skills....it's that they get changed b/c of PvP....and mostly by GvG. Maybe 10% plays GvG....and thats generous...wtf should 90% of the game's population be effected so much by a format that so few play? Imo it should be reversed...let the 10% deal with the changes that plz 90% of the game. Lets be honest PvE pays the bills...Anet needs to cater moreso to it.
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Skyy High
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
No what?..No doesn't explain anything...plz clarify^^
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2) PvP runs on balance, PvE does not. PvE has tons of OPed crap to play with. The addition or subtraction of a skill here or there will not make or break your entertainment; quite the opposite for PvP.
3) Every game has a tiny percentage of the population that plays in the top formats/difficulty levels/brackets. That's why they're the top formats. That's not an argument for ignoring them! The game needs that top format to prosper, or there's literally nowhere for those in the middle to aspire to (which is, incidentally, the situation we are in right now, for the most part).
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Originally Posted by Wenspire
For a 10en skill that offers a low return the recharge should reflect it's usefulness.
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Killed u man
I think people are forgetting that against any form of trip melee, this skill will be a guaranteed 90-120 party heal with a reasonable chance to heal for more. (A ranger dshotting something, any caster wanding, ...)
In it's current state, this skill should be very effective on a midliner. (Ele, Necro or even illusion stand mesmer)
In it's current state, this skill should be very effective on a midliner. (Ele, Necro or even illusion stand mesmer)
Essence Snow
Let me start off by saying ty..for actually adressing the post.
PvP gets most of the updates (strictly speaking in numbers)...thought that was common knowledge...most updates are some sorta skill balance which are...wait for it....for pvp, SG is no exception.
If they would update skills that aren't used for PvE..I could care less. The problem with this update...is that they changed a skill "SG" that was used in PvE...but not in PvP to address PvP meta issue...which will change. (pvp meta always changes...the skill will remain crap in PvE long after the pvp meta shifts) While PvE may not run on balance...it is important to it.
I'm going to have to disagree on this point as there are tons of PvE'rs participating in a "top format" of their own w/o any intention to "aspire" to PvP. It is these players that the SG update effected the most in terms of one of the ER builds.
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
1) PvE already gets the majority of the updates, and many of the skill balances. The dervish and mesmer rebalances were certainly done with PvE in mind, not PvP. So, right off the bat, your claim is bull; PvE already does get much more attention.)
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| 2) PvP runs on balance, PvE does not. PvE has tons of OPed crap to play with. The addition or subtraction of a skill here or there will not make or break your entertainment; quite the opposite for PvP. |
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| 3) Every game has a tiny percentage of the population that plays in the top formats/difficulty levels/brackets. That's why they're the top formats. That's not an argument for ignoring them! The game needs that top format to prosper, or there's literally nowhere for those in the middle to aspire to (which is, incidentally, the situation we are in right now, for the most part). |
Reformed
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
A Heal Party in the prot line that heals all allies and can heal for ~120hp easily in most cases doesn't strike me as useless.
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Wenspire
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
A Heal Party in the prot line that heals all allies and can heal for ~120hp easily in most cases doesn't strike me as useless. Compare Divine Healing, a solid skill for a monk in PvE that needs nonelite party healing. SG is 5 energy more and recharges 8 seconds slower, but will almost always heal for at least 20 points, heal all allies, and if you use it well you could get double the healing or more as DH.
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A 120 heal over 20 seconds is like having 3-pips of regen over 20sec. I'd personally rather equip Never Surrender. At least that skill costs only 5en, has no activation time and doesn't suffer from any of the common hexes used vs casters.
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by Reformed
What are you doing getting 3+ people hit in a 3-4 second window by attacks in the first place? Good aggro control requires a lot more skill than waiting for the maximum number of people to get hit to fuel these theoretical heals.
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Originally Posted by Wenspire
A 120 heal over 20 seconds is like having 3-pips of regen over 20sec. I'd personally rather equip Never Surrender. At least that skill costs only 5en, has no activation time and doesn't suffer from any of the common hexes used vs casters.
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Oh, and by your logic Divine Healing is even worse, since it heals 60hp over 12 seconds = 2.5 pips.
Elnino
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
PvP gets most of the updates (strictly speaking in numbers)...thought that was common knowledge...most updates are some sorta skill balance which are...wait for it....for pvp, SG is no exception.
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| If they would update skills that aren't used for PvE..I could care less. The problem with this update...is that they changed a skill "SG" that was used in PvE...but not in PvP to address PvP meta issue...which will change. (pvp meta always changes...the skill will remain crap in PvE long after the pvp meta shifts) While PvE may not run on balance...it is important to it. |
I find it strange that you think balance in PvE is important yet you are advocating against a change to an overpowered template. ER eles are far from balanced and just because eles aren't as strong as other professions isn't gonna justify why the ER template shouldn't be touched. Fyi, ER is still in need of a nerf and it's not like eles can't do anything else. Jeydra has proven that an ele can successfully complete every corner of this game - without using any ER build.
Wenspire
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
Because regen is the same as burst healing, amirite? Oh, and Command is totally the same as Protection. And "all party members" is the same as "all allies". Sheesh.
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With a 1sec cast and 20sec recharge, "potential" burst healing over a 3-5sec duration is just as unreliable as regen for a protection skill. Also, 6 in Command isnt hard to reach. Healing for "all allies" over "all party members" every 20sec is not something to be excited over for me. But, that's just for me...
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Elnino
I find it strange that you think balance in PvE is important yet you are advocating against a change to an overpowered template. ER eles are far from balanced and just because eles aren't as strong as other professions isn't gonna justify why the ER template shouldn't be touched. Fyi, ER is still in need of a nerf and it's not like eles can't do anything else. Jeydra has proven that an ele can successfully complete every corner of this game - without using any ER build.
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I am well aware of Jeydra's air AP build....I however view AP much along the same lines as Ursan.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
I am well aware of Jeydra's air AP build....I however view AP much along the same lines as Ursan.
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ItsJustMe
There's alot of attention being placed on the healing side of the skill and not enough on the blocking of the skill.
If you get 3 blocks the healing is 100+, but the block is key as well. How much damage would it prevent? Timed right it will kill a spike if the melee misses the DW.
It's really a party wide RoF.
If the healing was tied to Divine Favor, it might never see use. As it stands, I'm not sure it's good enough to make it to a midliners bar anyway.
Monk bars are so tight right now anyway, I'm just not sure it can make it.
-i
If you get 3 blocks the healing is 100+, but the block is key as well. How much damage would it prevent? Timed right it will kill a spike if the melee misses the DW.
It's really a party wide RoF.
If the healing was tied to Divine Favor, it might never see use. As it stands, I'm not sure it's good enough to make it to a midliners bar anyway.
Monk bars are so tight right now anyway, I'm just not sure it can make it.
-i
Sankt Hallvard
Partywide rof with 1 sec cast? And you're gonna time it to block the melees dw? You're good obviously!
Monkbars are tight? rc, gua and maybe sh on the prot. What else is indispensable? Prot is mighty flexible imo.
Monkbars are tight? rc, gua and maybe sh on the prot. What else is indispensable? Prot is mighty flexible imo.
MArcSinus
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Originally Posted by Elnino
Quality over quantity.
They wanted to introduce a new skill into the game so that players could handle triple melee builds in PvP. Instead of completely creating an entire new skill (with the name, icon, animation etc), they decided to put this new skill in place of a problem skill in PvE. Pretty smart if you ask me. I find it strange that you think balance in PvE is important yet you are advocating against a change to an overpowered template. ER eles are far from balanced and just because eles aren't as strong as other professions isn't gonna justify why the ER template shouldn't be touched. Fyi, ER is still in need of a nerf and it's not like eles can't do anything else. Jeydra has proven that an ele can successfully complete every corner of this game - without using any ER build. |
The new Shield Guardian is terribad for ER (no divine favor) and is basically a retarded Aegis.
Now if they finally decided to buff the ele's elemental magic I could care less about ER, nerf it by all means, but sadly this still isn't the case.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard
Partywide rof with 1 sec cast? And you're gonna time it to block the melees dw? You're good obviously!
Monkbars are tight? rc, gua and maybe sh on the prot. What else is indispensable? Prot is mighty flexible imo. |
Sankt Hallvard
I didn't mean to make a case for sg's viability, just that if you WANT to take it it should easily fit onto the prots bar. Rof being the most obvious skill to leave at home as you rightly point out. I could make a case for how you could also skip one of the skills you mentioned(aura, sb, veil) but for this argument it's not necessary.
NerfHerder
If Anet's goal was to undermine the effectiveness of ER Prots in PvE and Triple Melee in PvP, the results are underwhelming.
ER Prots easily took the bigger hit. I'm not saying ER Prot isnt OP. The old SG could really save your ass if you let yourself become over run in HM. Basically giving you an "I win" for poor positioning/gameplay. But, why start nerfing one of the only viable builds Ele's have, without any evidence that we will get something to replace it with? Meanwhile, the new SG seems about as useful in PvP as balls on a heffer.
I could understand if they went after ST defensive Rts, at least they would still have a plethora of viable builds available. With the list of OP and underused skills we have in the game, why target ER Prots now?
ER Prots easily took the bigger hit. I'm not saying ER Prot isnt OP. The old SG could really save your ass if you let yourself become over run in HM. Basically giving you an "I win" for poor positioning/gameplay. But, why start nerfing one of the only viable builds Ele's have, without any evidence that we will get something to replace it with? Meanwhile, the new SG seems about as useful in PvP as balls on a heffer.
I could understand if they went after ST defensive Rts, at least they would still have a plethora of viable builds available. With the list of OP and underused skills we have in the game, why target ER Prots now?
Araiia
I was a big fan of shield guardian on my ER prot bar, but there are enough other mildly useful fast cast/short recharge prot spells that the loss isn't crippling.
This update is ambiguous enough that the dev's true intentions could have gone both ways as either a buff or a nerf.
On the other hand, Burning Speed still has 1/4s cast and no recharge.
This update is ambiguous enough that the dev's true intentions could have gone both ways as either a buff or a nerf.
On the other hand, Burning Speed still has 1/4s cast and no recharge.
Apok
Why anyone would want to take off a spammable and mighty useful prot skill like RoF for a mini aegis that is only up for, in the best scenario possible, 25% of the time... that should not even process through anyone's mind.
Ensign
I don't understand why Shielding Hands is a core untouchable Prot skill in PvP, and I don't understand why Shield Guardian became a key component of ER Prot bars in PvE.
EDIT: I'm not suggesting anyone is wrong for running either of these skills, but that they're the 7th or 8th skill on your bar - the first skills to change when you have to make an adjustment, or specialized skills to fill in the gaps of the bar.
EDIT: I'm not suggesting anyone is wrong for running either of these skills, but that they're the 7th or 8th skill on your bar - the first skills to change when you have to make an adjustment, or specialized skills to fill in the gaps of the bar.
Artisan Archer
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Originally Posted by Ensign
I don't understand why Shielding Hands is a core untouchable Prot skill in PvP
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Also Shield Guardian not a skill I would want on my prot, for risk of getting pblocked, (cancelling 10e skills is not gonna happen). But on a fuse or midliner, sure.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Ensign
and I don't understand why Shield Guardian became a key component of ER Prot bars in PvE.
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*One of the few groups that actually regularly run ER bars in PvE and probably responsible for whatever is one PvX.
Killed u man
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Originally Posted by Ensign
I don't understand why Shielding Hands is a core untouchable Prot skill in PvP, and I don't understand why Shield Guardian became a key component of ER Prot bars in PvE.
EDIT: I'm not suggesting anyone is wrong for running either of these skills, but that they're the 7th or 8th skill on your bar - the first skills to change when you have to make an adjustment, or specialized skills to fill in the gaps of the bar. |
An RC Monk is designed around removing conditions, that will always be it's original purpose. Any prot you throw on that bar only lands there because RC happens to be in the protection prayers line and prots in general work. However, build records have shown us that prots can just aswell be placed on the heal monk or even the midline. Hence, any skill on the prot monk's bar can be argued to be inter-changeable with other options.
Shielding Hands is just really good at what it does, and is very versatile aswell. It's an amazing tool to stop spikes, it works good as a pre-prot (on a pushing flagger) because of it's long duration and it has very usefeull niche uses. A prot Monk would most likely die to an IoP mesmer if it wasn't for Shielding Hands.
On top of that, in these days of fragility (Though nerfed) and Flash enchantments, aswell as life stealing effects, such as Avatar of Grenth, Shielding Hands and SoA are arguably better than RoF. This is why I always die a bit inside when I still see prot monks take RoF over SoA when they know they're going to face a trip dervish guild.
Shield Guardian was just amazing at PvE: It healed all your frontliners for +-70 hp every 1.75 seconds, it gave them free blocks against monsters sometimes dealing 300+ damagee a hit and it fueled ER just aswell as RoF or burning speed.
The defensive side of the old skill could be argued to be overkill, since you got a guy spamming prot spirit and spirit bond anyways, but it still was a better option than RoF or burning speed.
Why negate 90% of the damage when you can negate 95%?
Ensign
Current backlines are dominated by WoH and RC, for sure; it's a messy situation though and ways to open it up aren't immediately obvious.
I can appreciate the value of the second small prot. They've always been good against physical pressure teams; I can understand how the metagame shifts towards massive pressure and pure passive defense would amplify that. While they were clearly the 8th slot when I was playing more, it would make sense that they would rise in importance in the triple melee and dervish metas.
I still don't understand how Shield Guardian became a key skill in PvE though. I always thought it was complete trash, however, and found that in any actually difficult situation, the less I used it, the better. It had some marginal value in Protbond centered setups as a slightly more robust tool than overusing Infuse, but it's always been very close to Burning Speed caliber in my mind, or like running Orison - sure, you can spam it when you're not paying attention, but there's always a better skill on your bar to use in a pinch.
I'll have to mess around with Shielding Hands and watch it a bit more closely to try and see what's going on with it. Thanks.
I can appreciate the value of the second small prot. They've always been good against physical pressure teams; I can understand how the metagame shifts towards massive pressure and pure passive defense would amplify that. While they were clearly the 8th slot when I was playing more, it would make sense that they would rise in importance in the triple melee and dervish metas.
I still don't understand how Shield Guardian became a key skill in PvE though. I always thought it was complete trash, however, and found that in any actually difficult situation, the less I used it, the better. It had some marginal value in Protbond centered setups as a slightly more robust tool than overusing Infuse, but it's always been very close to Burning Speed caliber in my mind, or like running Orison - sure, you can spam it when you're not paying attention, but there's always a better skill on your bar to use in a pinch.
I'll have to mess around with Shielding Hands and watch it a bit more closely to try and see what's going on with it. Thanks.
Apok
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Originally Posted by Ensign
I still don't understand how Shield Guardian became a key skill in PvE though.
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Shortened reason: It was brainlessly OP for it's setting.
Xenomortis
Reversal of Fortune can do that job pretty much just as well; that cycled with Spirit Bond is almost identical to SG cycled with SB.
FWIW: The only ER bar that had SG mainbarred was one that only had three short recharging spells (Infuse, SG, SB). It's value of Burning Speed was that it could actually achieve something.
The value of Shield Guardian in PvE was always 'it has a 1 second recharge, a 1/4 second cast and it does something'. Most of the time you never needed it; it was just an easy way to keep your energy up when four suicidal melee guys were triggering Prot Bond like it was the apocalypse.
FWIW: The only ER bar that had SG mainbarred was one that only had three short recharging spells (Infuse, SG, SB). It's value of Burning Speed was that it could actually achieve something.
The value of Shield Guardian in PvE was always 'it has a 1 second recharge, a 1/4 second cast and it does something'. Most of the time you never needed it; it was just an easy way to keep your energy up when four suicidal melee guys were triggering Prot Bond like it was the apocalypse.
Swingline
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Originally Posted by Artisan Archer
Also Shield Guardian not a skill I would want on my prot, for risk of getting pblocked, (cancelling 10e skills is not gonna happen). But on a fuse or midliner, sure.
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Ensign
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Originally Posted by Apok
Shortened reason: It was brainlessly OP for it's setting.
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If you weren't maintaining Protbonds on everyone, then Protspirit, Spirit Bond, and Infuse did everything you ever wanted from Shield Guardian. Whenever I had Shield Guardian on my bar in addition to those three, I felt like my effectiveness dropped whenever I used it. I was always better off using some combination of Protspirit, Spirit Bond, and Infuse in quick succession than pressing Shield Guardian.
I came to think of Shield Guardian as the Orison of Healing of the Ether Renewal Prot bar - yeah, sure, you can always push it to get an effect, and spamming it with ER up will be moderately effective, but there's always something better you can use and there's no good reason to waste a slot on your bar on it.
Have people gone back to using Glyph of Swiftness as well? That's another skill where you sacrifice a bit of power and flexibility for ease of use. It's not nearly the offender Shield Guardian was, but it's in the same vein.
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Originally Posted by Swingline
I actually thought about this scenario the other day. It's downright terrifying and it should be a 1/4 second cast to really solve the 3 melee problem without a Mesmer coming into the picture with PB.
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Kunder
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Originally Posted by Ensign
See, again, that is 100% counter to my experience; that the skill was a steaming pile outside of an 'I have 4 Frenzied Warriors with Protbond destroying my energy and I absolutely need to keep casting no matter what' scenario - and Reversal of Fortune was actually better for that, since it cost less and achieved the same casts/second as Shield Guardian when combined with your better skills.
If you weren't maintaining Protbonds on everyone, then Protspirit, Spirit Bond, and Infuse did everything you ever wanted from Shield Guardian. Whenever I had Shield Guardian on my bar in addition to those three, I felt like my effectiveness dropped whenever I used it. I was always better off using some combination of Protspirit, Spirit Bond, and Infuse in quick succession than pressing Shield Guardian. I came to think of Shield Guardian as the Orison of Healing of the Ether Renewal Prot bar - yeah, sure, you can always push it to get an effect, and spamming it with ER up will be moderately effective, but there's always something better you can use and there's no good reason to waste a slot on your bar on it. Have people gone back to using Glyph of Swiftness as well? That's another skill where you sacrifice a bit of power and flexibility for ease of use. It's not nearly the offender Shield Guardian was, but it's in the same vein. |
Coast
Shield Guardian Shield Guardian: increased casting time to 1 second; increased recharge to 15 seconds, decreased energy cost to 5 energy [sic]; changed functionality to: "For 1...3...4 seconds, all party members in earshot have a 75% chance to block attacks. If an attack is blocked, all allies in earshot are healed for 10...34...40 Health and Shield Guardian ends."
Discuss, give your criticism on it.
My 1st concern might be that 15recharge could be slightly too powerfull and should be increased to 20 if it turns out this way.
Discuss, give your criticism on it.
My 1st concern might be that 15recharge could be slightly too powerfull and should be increased to 20 if it turns out this way.
Swingline
5 energy is too low with that recharge.
Coast
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Originally Posted by Swingline
5 energy is too low with that recharge.
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Also, read my whole post... not partitially
Swingline
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Originally Posted by Coast
5 energy so u can fake it obviously without burning your energy immediately... Also, read my whole post... not partially
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Coast
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Originally Posted by Swingline
SG is one of those skills now where it's either incredibly good or incredibly useless. Even at 5 energy and 15 recharge it would be an OP skill that takes zero skill to use except in the case you have to cancel against a rupter. For the fire and go type of skill it is I think its best left as is, just hope your 40/40 set gives you love which it will a lot of the time.
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My 1st concern might be that 15recharge could be slightly too powerfull and should be increased to 20 if it turns out this way.[/QUOTE]
Then make it 20sec so u can chain it less easy when ran on several people
Wenspire
I think for PvE, a 10en at 12-15sec recharge would be decent. It falls in line with Shield of Absorb and Shielding Hands. Those two skills have a duration effect where-as SG "potentially" triggers only once (per person) per cast and only vs attacks. Not to mention, they also cost 1/2 as much EN to cast.