another solution to pvp elitism in a not league/matchmaking way

Rank is not an issue. It's been the same for 6 years and every player with rank has gotten past the discrimination. Whilst arguably harder to do now than in the past, it is not that difficult to do if you apply yourself and are competent/not a dick. Networking gets you right past it and it really isn't that difficult if you accept help/ask for help from the right people (there are a lot of wrong people to ask).

Rank discrimination becoming so problematic to new players is not the problem, but a symptom of the problem. That problem is dwindling population as caused partially by the games age, but also by the pile of crap that is the poorly balanced updates Anet has implemented the past few years.

This population decrease causes an unbalance in the skill levels of teams facing each other, instead of good/mediocre/bad teams facing equally skilled teams on a regular basis, they more regularly face skills above their skill level and get stomped, disheartened and eventually stop playing.

This leads to the current situation, where there are barely enough inexperienced players to pair up with each other into a team, let alone face another inexperienced team and actually have a chance of winning.

Allowing people to get their rank easier changes nothing in this dynamic.

To even attempt to start to fix it you need an influx of players, whilst a rank system change up may change that it's just not necessary. Players who play only to get rank will not play for long (hence the dwindled population).

The game needs to be fun and rewarding to sustain a population, add yet more incentives for playing HA. I'd suggest balance the game, but that's a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing pipedream, and a snails pace one at that.

GvG has no rank reward for i'd guess about 50% (possibly more since the reset) of it's active playerbase, yet with the recent incentives added and the way guild ranks work inexperienced teams can still press Enter Battle with a relatively fair chance of winning (assuming they've done some minimal build preparation, Build Wars).

This is what's missing for inexperienced players in HA. This is the problem. Rank discrimination is amplified to the point that it's perceived as the issue because of this, when it is merely the symptom.

It happens to any old competitive game. I mean look at Starcraft, DotA, you're expected to lose for a long time before even coming close to having a chance of winning because of this exact same issue. At least Starcraft has the joy of actually being every balanced, however.

Granted what i've said doesn't present much of a solution, matchmaking by rank wouldn't fix this. All is needed is a balanced population, but that requires a massive influx of players.

can the influx of players be the pvers?

if yes.. then how to make them all play pvp together, and stay as pvp without considering rewards/title/rank is their main aim?

if not.. then probably the zaishen combat has already been driving the existing pvp mob from one format to another through rewards, but those "pvpers" are still doing that for the reward, and not really actually enjoying format...you still need some other factor to make them stay on a higher format...say how do you transform a ra player into a ha/gvg player who doesn't consider reward is the main aim?...

How are you going to say rank is not an issue then in your next paragraph say its problimatic... Sorry people discriminate on the basis of rank... not skill bars or how well the update went... If the updates were that bad people wouldn't play pvp all together... Its the the highly discrimitive formats that have fallen problimatic... Unless you can explain why people discriminate on the basis of bad updates... your statement does not make since, because there are players that want to play but don't because they cant get a group. Players may have quit because of bad updates, but now theres hardly any players left to quit... The problem lies in no new players coming in. Im fairly confident that if you ask a pve-er why he doesn't PVP.... you will get the answer relating to rank discrimination than anets crappy updates.... This very thread should make that abundantly clear.


Rank did not always exist... It was super easy to get a group for HoH (Tombs) without even having to ask before the edition of fame and faction late in guild wars first year. People started asking others to show emote because the title didn't exist yet and it took longer to get a group... then they added the title and it began to take hours to get a group... eventually it reached the point that new players coming in was outwighed by players abandoning the format... This degenerative trend continued and increased PUG grouping times to the point they became non-existant.... When many pvp regulars got banned for the wide spread rupt botting, that was the kill shot for HA....

So Rank is an issue its just taken about 6 years to see the final results... if it it was age and decrease in overall population it would be more apparent in other areas of the game.

Give people a something to show for there participation/learning effort that will help them over come discrimination... you will see more people coming in because they have something to show for thier effort instead of just being stuck at square 1.

Ask yourself why you think rank discrimination exists.

Also, fame/rank have existed since day 1.

rank discrimination goes both way...

a) a guy want to join but thinks he is not good enough because of no rank..
b) a guy doesn't want an unrank to join because he thinks unrank is no good...

but these only solely based on the perception of rank means good....

my opinion is you can't remove rank altogether, because if it is a competition, you need something extra for players to compete for, if not, it will become a game of competing for nothing, reducing competitiveness.....

remembering the first double fame weekends, it drove a lot of lessor competitive players to ha.. but it pissed some high rank pvpers, because their rank was harder to get..

therefore I prefer more on increasing the base pve competitiveness by pvp in pve button than reducing the whole structure of pvp competitiveness through removing, or reducing rank importance.

The way i remember it....

Fame used to be just a number in your hero panel... not as rank title... fame effected only as emote.... which most people at the time didn't even know wtf it was when u did that emote....

Rank discrimination exists because of the desire to be efficient at earning title and rewards (desire to achieve wins), because the focus is largely for rewards.... am i wrong here?

I'm not saying discrimination is the cause of the problem and must be eliminated...

I am saying the current mathematical determinant (rank) of that discrimination is flawed and largely responsible but not the sole reason for the inactivity of HA and has hindered the activeness of other formats....

Feel free to correct me (on a past factual basis reference) if I'm wrong... if you want people to flock to pvp... you need to make rank based on (in a proportional addition to wins) completing objectives and/or kills in HA and kills in RA earn credit against discrimination... This will place less importance on wins which is important to drawing in new blood... that way veterans can kick the crap outa new players and they both leave with a since of accomplishment.... the new players having gained some experience, learning, and gaining some ground on the discrimination front... The vets still reap all the rewards they worked so hard to refined their team to gain.... nobody really loses in that situation and both parties continue playing having gained ground in pursuit of a goal...

I haven't heard anyone say this is a bad idea.... i would love to hear from you if you can think of any reason not to implement the idea.... please make it related to the idea, instead of defending rank discrimination in hypocritical or contradictory statements.

I'm confident point B happens in way more excess than point A...

and your right it is just a perception... but its a wildly used perception...

Your right you shouldn't remove rank all together.... there should be a means of discrimination when you talking about competition... but you need to give people a more reasonable means to over com that... at-least in my opinion

changing pve to fix pvp just sounds like a horrible idea because you would be killing the casual part of the game... and the objective is to sell copies of the game, not make gw into a sport.... sorry man don't care how much you change pve.... if you don't change pvp... ain't nothing going to change because even when 7 heroes and consumable didn't exist... pvp was in a degenerative state people won't be forced to pvp they will just quit and find something else to play or exclude that part of the game.... and it is far to risky for arena net to do such a thing.

a) happens a lot outside the pvp arena, only you see b) is more because a) wouldn't step their foot into pvp arena due to that reason, and making b) feel more superficially excessive than a) in the arena..

I say that because, most of the time, when I tried to ask a pver to pvp.. they will give me the a) reason, and they are not even tried in the arena yet.....

pvp in pve button will not affect their normal hero/consumable play.. just if they use them, their reward is lessor, something pve should be concerning more.....what I'm trying to do is to transfer that elitism burden back to pve, and maintaining the competitiveness in pvp.... than always saying it is only the pvper fault..

at the end of the day, the pver will not get any less reward, because if they don't use the pvp in pve button, it is just the same as they are not getting the pvp rewards like now if they don't play pvp...

Well there is no way to prove the the occurrences of point A and B... but i find your point plausible...

I think its a very bad idea to burden pve with more elitism... people come to play pve in alternative to pvp elitism.... but that is just because i believe having a casual aspect to the game is important to sustain the competitive part of the game.

If you directly penalize people for using consumables/heros other than the cost it took to purchase them... it would be very different, and i don't understand how this would make people want to pvp.

the causal part of the game will still remain...just like normal mode and HM.. players can still play the normal mode....does it make the game less causal once they introduced HM? I think rather it puts more depth into the game.

It is actually more punishing indirectly to pve people by adding strongbox...if they don't pvp.... something pver can't really have that chance to control the reward by themselves from playing pve directly to earn it..

if there is a pvp in pve button.. at least it will help them to gain competitiveness/confidence.. than having the thought of using consumable/pve skill/heroes/pulling in pvp, pvper will see that pver are worthier after they played pvp in pve and let them into the group more than what it is now, and most importantly without the need to reduce the dynamics/competitiveness in pvp...which pvper loves and strike for

Exactly how does removing cons and adding more goodies to PvE teach people how to qknock, the importance of cancel-casting, or splits? The reason there is elitism in pvp is that more experienced players don't want the PvE mentality, because the formats are so different. Confidence in one's pvp's ability does not come from doing Zaishen challenges, it comes from the experience of pvp.


I agree with this

As for the OP
/notsigned

I agree totally that experience of pvp must need to earn from pvp, there is no doubt..but the problem is you still have to rely on the population, where that the majority of them is now thinking usage of cons/heroes/pulling/pveskill...(pve mentality)

if there is no population, there is no experience of pvp...

so closing gap between pvp and pver is also important in the sense of population transitioning...

unless you think, puting cons/heroes/pveskill into pvp is possible.. I would rather do the opposite, reducing the cons/heroes/pveskill usage in pve.

Right, however your idea is to reward pvers to play in pve without cons, which does nothing to solve the problem of elitism in high-end areas.

You want to bring in more pvpers, make pvp interesting. Adding HoM statues will bring in pvpers up until they get the statue, if they even care in the first place.

Apologies it's not that clear, i'm not great at typing out my thoughts coherently. What i meant was that the rank system is not an issue. Rank discrimination (not the rank system itself) has become more of an issue, ONLY because of shrinking population. In a healthy population rank discrimination is not an issue in itself, i mean this game's had rank discrimination for at least 5 years.

You misunderstood my point on skill updates. I'll put it in points, as i didn't mean that they discriminate on skill updates, but bad updates have led to discrimination becoming more of a wall.

• Everyone starts out inexperienced at start of the games life
• Progressively you get good players, ok players, and bad and/or new players
• Rank discrimination begins. People progress through these levels, and wish to team with those of equal levels. As the game has a healthy number of players in each "division" this is not a problem as there are plenty on their level to team with, and have a good chance of facing.
• Poor updates begin/age of the game kicks in. Veteran (and some mid, even low) players get pissed off/bored and quit, depleting the top layer of players.
• Continuation of this leads to an imbalance in likelihood of facing an equally skilled team, as fewer top teams in mean they face less skilled teams more and stomp them. This means inexperienced teams will face higher skilled teams more regularly, and lose more.
• This is not fun for those who don't progress. Causes those in lower levels disinterest in the format.
• Vicious cycle without an influx of new players, as unlikely to face those of equal skill level. So they don't want to pair with others of no rank, as their weight down on the team now counts more than previously. Rank discrimination, though forever prevailent throughout the game except at release, becomes an issue.
• Increasingly hostile environment to new players, therefore less new players.

This shows how i meant poor updates and general age of the game are the issue.

As lursey said, we have a load of pve'rs some of which willing to try it. If an update were made such that it entices pve players/guilds/alliances to give it a shot in large enough numbers, handfuls of new teams/players will enter which would make the lower end more healthy. Rank discrimination would stop being an issue.

And oh hey, it would actually be fun for them to play because they'll face teams the same skill level a fair number of times. Playing just to get a rank isn't fun, which unfortunately is so many peoples motive (especially in PuG's).

The players you mention who want to play can't get a group, clearly don't want to play that bad. It's not that hard to start your own unranked group and grab some dervtrain from pvx, I did it myself. I'm not saying it'll be quick, you'll start a group up, take ages and probably lose then half the team leaves. Guess what? This has been the case for years.

I'm not pretending that as it is now with less players doesn't make this harder, and hell maybe a rank system change could bring in a few players temporarily, who will then discriminate themselves. But in my opinion it would not sustain an influx as well as creating more incentives to play outside of rank, points on a title bar is an awful reason to want to play a game. I've not given any thought to it, but something like 1 win= 1 strongbox. It worked in GvG, no reason not in HA.

Create an influx of players with increased incentives (and in a dream world, blow the door of unlocks) and discrimination will cease to be a symptom again. There will still be complaints from those who want a free ride with people above their skill level, but that's been the case throughout this games lifetime.

Edit: I just noticed Vezoth's post, he summarises well what i meant when i said you need to encourage large groups into the game.

if rewarding pvers to play in pve without cons still won't work.. I don't think a HOM statues will work either......if the pve simply doesn't play pvp

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if playing pvp just for the reward, then it will create farmers...or a lot of red resign teams, flooding the lower level of HA..

playing pvp should not be for the reward...I don't think reward base incentives in pvp can efficiently attract pvers to play pvp...

This is actually not true, i quite often try and help new players get involved, and teach them things if they want to learn. I know quite a few other better players who will also regularly try and "mentor" newer players. The real problem is that in order to learn, you need to play. I can spend hours or days talking to a new player, trying to explain things, but ultimately he has to be able to play matches in order to practise stuff.

New players have the wrong mentality, and are not willing to do any work for themselves these days. There are actually a lot of new players who want to join GvG/HA, but existing guilds are not looking for players with no experience. Surely then, the logical thing would be for NEW PLAYERS TO FORM NEW GUILDS!!!!! but no, nobody can ever be bothered . There are a lot of players looking into get pvp, considerably more than many people realise . Starting up your own guild isnt necessarily that difficult, you just have to not mind the fact that you will initially lose a lot of games. This is part of the learning curve, and its a phase that everybody has been through, and this is where a lot of people give up, quit and go back to PvE. STOP QUITTING FFS!!! Being good takes time and quite a bit of practise (logging in once a week as a casual gamer is probably not going to allow you to learn enough, a regular time investment of at least a few nights a week is probably needed in order to actually learn and practise!)

Once new guilds are formed, new players have somewhere to go and actually play. At this point, top players can go along and guest/teach/mentor (a lot of players are willing to do this) And in this way, new players get better and learn stuff.

What is not going to happen, is that the top players spend all their time trying to teach new players, form new guilds, recruit new people to PvP etc. If you want to get involved in pvp, you have to be prepared to do a lot of this groundwork for yourself. Players are more than willing to guest for a couple of hours of an evening, but new players really have to stop expecting the existing playerbase to give up half of their playtime each week, in order to try and babysit the new guys.

There are simply not enough low level + mid level guilds to make beginners learn anything in GvG... Plus, the terrible meta and flux isn't helping really.....

As long as there will be no improvment made in game, nothing will change.... Basically, make an hour where all beginners can fight themselves everyday and strongboxes farmers will say hi...

there is nothing really you can teach if you can't bring them in ha into a group fighting other playing with it.. and even if you do, the problem is you are not really playing competitively according to the format, because you are not maximizing your probability to win by grouping the best people..so you will be teaching the wrong stuff..

I think newbie can only learn it by themselves....that is the format of ha..and being competitive....if he/she is not up to that level.. then no one can really teach him/her...

So then why are you suggesting it in the first place if you don't agree with it?

rewarding in pve venue...is different from rewarding in pvp venue....

Doesn't happen in GvG (to my knowledge), i doubt it'd happen much in HA. It only occured in HB because HB was a 1 person format, and a few other reasons.

Besides, flooding the lower of HA is a bad thing how?

Of the flood, there's bound to be some teams/players that would continue to play properly, and others who'd fast realise that not red resigning is far better. Teams asking for red resign (if any) would just be free wins. I'd be surprised if you often you'd face one willing to resign at all anyway. They're highly likely to face a team wanting to actually play/win and this in itself will discourage it, and encourage people to learn how to actually play.


You're seriously overestimating the skill of an average team in HA. A well coordinated team (read build setup) of say 6 inexperienced players being carried by 2 experienced players can be plenty competitive on early maps.

How are you teaching the wrong stuff by pairing with inexperienced players? That makes no sense at all.

I can see your last point to an extent, a player has to know the basics of PvP before you can actually teach them anything useful sure, but all you need is freely available on the wiki. There's nothing stopping someone better teaching them at all. That said, this is provided they are willing to learn and open to criticism which sadly a lot of new players aren't.

farmer/red resign teams are playing not in accordance to the format, it should not be encouraged that way...

what can you teach them, when you say teach?

I don't think ha is a teaching ground, because it is a very competitive venue, if you want to teach, you can only teach them to lose..so there is nothing really gain for them...

just like you put kids to the world cup, and saying teaching them soccer when they don't really have any experience, and now you are putting more candies in the world cup field to attract those kids....you see there is nothing really good about it..because the kids are simply not yet competitive enough to compete for the candies

but when you say playing together competitively, then it is another story...

What?

Instead of answering that with a list, i'll retort my own question. What can't you teach them while playing that you can while not playing? Not much.

Saying you can only teach them to lose is an incredibly pessimistic and self defeatist attitude to take, so sure if you take that outlook then you will lose. You can only take 8 players to one other place in PvP, GvG, which is hardly a non-competitive environment. PvE doesn't work as a training ground for PvP no matter which way you twist it, you can't get around that you're facing AI not other players. They do not react in any way similar to teams in PvP do to different situations and different builds.

Your analogy holds something to it, but it will work if you bring in enough "kids" which will happen if the "candies" are good enough. Because they will face other "kids" a decent enough amount of their matches such that they WILL be able to compete for the "candies". Sure they're not gonna win everytime, and they will face teams that will batter them, but that's expected in a competitive environment.

because pvp is competitive ... red resign and farmer are not playing for competitiveness....

there are obstacles need to be overcome for making pve to play pvp on the basis of reward

1) if the pve doesn't want to play pvp all
2) to get the good candies they have to be competitive,
3) whether there is any other reward in pve that is easier to get....
4) whether it is worthy to spend time to get the reward
5) etc

you see a pve players will see these 4th obstacles, but another pvp player will just dive in pvp disregarding the rewards, and play straight for the competitiveness.....

unless the reward break the pve economies like making ecto into nothing, I don't think pve player will spend time to play pvp......

just try to imagine putting 200 ectos a hall wins, or 40 ectos a kill...there are still a very high chance the pve will not play the pvp.. because some pve doesn't play for reward to play pve, but play for the adventure in pve...

so concluding, there is no "good reward" at all can be put in pvp to make pve to play pvp more....unless you can think of a definition of magical good reward, that once put in.. the pvp venue will be filled with players...just like answering to how much is good??

Right, however the HoM is for PvErs ONLY. Adding a statue for PvP is going to have PvErs working towards it, and then going back to PvE. Even if you make a difficult title that requires you to spend time in pvp, Pvers will skip it in favor of getting to 50/50 with easier titles. Pvpers could care less about something that does nothing for them. Your idea does not reward people for playing in pvp.

my suggestion is trying to make pver to be more competitive and easing the transitioning for them if they become more wishing to play pvp...

not directly turn them into pvp...because there is not a stable difficulty in the venue of pvp....the varying standard cannot allow new player to see their progression clearer.

You all seem to assume that it's only necessary to put in some other reward- or matchmaking-system, or education system, or leagues, and all of the pve players would come over and begin to play pvp.

This will not work, because the ordinary pve player has a completely different mindset than a real pvp player. He is lacking the competitive drive. He tries one or a handful pvp matches, is beaten to a pulp, and he's out forever again, because he realized that this is not his game.

He is not entirely interested in bashing the same enemy mob for 5-20 minutes and lose 50%+ of all matches. Most of the pve players struggle enough with their builds and own play style. They learn how to beat the static mobs in pve-land, but will never be successful against the ever-changing pvp enemies. They will never see what skill use will make the difference. They will never understand why they just lost or why they just won.

I'm sure almost all of the pve players already tried some pvp, and whoever has pvp skill already does or did pvp. The rest of the pve community is simply not able to play competitively.

The pvp community needs completely new players, not converted pve players.

I am writing this as one of the pve players who tried all pvp formats and found out that this is not his game. I don't say every pve-only player is exactly like me, but in the end this core point applies.

It can be the minority in PvE who still want to get into PvP, casual players, returning players, new players who have thought of it, anyone. Hell even those who have previously written off PvP sometimes try it out again. Whilst you're entirely right, that's still a lot of interested players compared to the existing playerbase in HA.

If you look at what the strongbox update did with GvG, it massively increased the number of teams playing on ladder to the point that you can nearly always get a match (i believe this is still the case, haven't played in a while). I put this, at least partly, down to rewards being on a per win basis. New rewards in HA are not on a per win basis, but every 2 wins, which is a much lower incentive.

Hi Olly, love ya <3

Also on topic:

As i said earlier, there are lots of players willing to participate in GvG/HA/PvP in general, they are not willing to help themselves. They expect the rest of the existing playerbase to bend over backwards to accommodate them, which isnt going to happen because it takes up too much of our play time, its far easier for us, and faster, to just group with people we know.

If new players want to play, they have to put in some effort on their own part. Form your own guild, go out and search for players, group together with other newbies, try and play urselves. If it fails get some experienced guests to come along and help out, learn from the guests. Invite more guildies, play with more guests, expand ur friends/contacts list, bla bla the list goes on. But it basically all starts with the fact that new players are not willing to form up teams/guilds with other new players.

If you have rank 0, do not expect to join a rank 15 team or a top 20 guild, it wont happen. And perhaps more suprisingly to you, its not because of titles either.

The fact is, all established GvGers know each other, and the ppl we dont know we have at least heard of. Its the same in HA, and to an extent there is plenty of overlap with many GvGers knowing many HAers and vice versa. If you are outside of this friendship circle, then ur screwed. GL getting into groups, guild wars pretty well has nothing to do with titles, its mostly dependent on who you know (and a certain element of being decent at the game too ofc).

If new players are not prepared to invest the time required, in order to form teams and get to know other players, ie socialising and networking, then they really have no chance of getting involved. PvP is a social activity, if u enjoy being antisocial, forget it.

The biggest stumbling block for many players trying to cross from PvE into PvP has been their inability to make friends. Unfortunately getting to know people takes time and effort, trying to play pvp 1 night a week isnt gna cut it. 1 week later people have forgotten you. You pretty much have to regularly invest time, at least 4-5 days a week, if not more initially, at least until you get to know some established people.

Guild wars is about player skill and networking, stop worrying about titles!!

Unfortunately, it worked for a few weeks but people stopped because it made no sense...
I believe there are still people doing it on bottom of ladder for farming strongboxes... but apart of that, i rarely get an opponent fast around 1000 rating anymore... This was due to 3 facts in my opinion :
- most fights last less than 5mn with this meta
- too many griefs( i can't count the number of times opponent resigned purposely at 4.50...)

You can also get a proof of this by checking automated tournaments... all were 5 rounds and now it turned back to 3 ( B AT usually being 1-2 guilds playing and 2-5 forfeiters)...

@ floor : really, i'm not sure whether you're trolling or you got a too active GvG guild, but playing 4 hours/day 5 days/week( and even, that depends on your playtimes....) is really a lot, especially considering you will get no result for at least a month... Your arguments are valid for 2006, but you need to consider INACTIVITY.. Sure you need people to play with, but you also need opponents...


I'm pretty sure though that adding in game messages such as the one for PvE with captain rujiyo would have helped....

There would surely be a population influx if we had messages like : " Captain Rujiyo has arrived in [Enter Format]. Rewards are doubled for next two hours "
This would make formats active permanently assuming we had 4-5 messages per day ( depending on playtimes so that everyone is happy) ...

I wasnt trolling at all, i admit i do play in the european timezone which makes it actually possible to play ladder. But assuming your able to play between the hours of like 7-11/12pm GMT, (which suits a lot of people seeing as almost every pvp player is now european), its quite easy to get ladder matches on a daily basis. It clearly becomes more difficult to get matches as you get into the higher reaches of the ladder, but at that point ladder more or less gets replaced by tournament play anyway...

Committing to playing 4 hours a day is excessive though i agree, but then i also never said that ;P Even playing for 2 hours a day, which is probably achievable 4-5 nights a week without really interfering with your real life responsibilities, allows for you to play at least 5-10 matches depending on how long each game lasts ofc. But seeing as games over the last 12 months have moved away from 28 minutes and are reguarly ending in 6-10 minutes, theres plenty of time to fit in several games in an evening.

As with any new activity, if you want to learn/improve it will require a certain amount of time investment on your part. If people are unable/unwilling to commit that time then it becomes an issue.

Note: Im fully aware that asian hours are dead beyond repair, and American hours is reduced to playing the AT's or not at all. So none of this post or my orignal one particularly apply to people playing in those timezones.

Yep. When I go tombs/HA (which is rare beyond belief), I might see someone I know and get a group. I'm r5 and my groups tend to be r10+. When I'm on, people generally ask me to GvG despite not even being c1. Why? Because I know a lot of people and those people are confident in my abilities. When I'm looking for people, either I know them or I know their references. Titles are meaningless for most players who PvP. I wouldn't worry about that.

My advice for PvErs looking to get into GvG? Find a like-minded group of players on some forums or in-game, go on obs mode between two great guilds, write down as many names as possible, and ask them to come mentor and/or tutor your guild sometime. There isn't a single GvGer who won't come, myself and probably floor included. They'll point out your mistakes and give you some advice.

As one of those PVE players, I would never play PVP just for a HoM statue. If PVE players ever have the desire to PVP, they'll do it on their own merits. You can't bribe the kind of drive that you need for serious PVP.

Sure, but further encouragements to those PvE players who are interested to (hopefully) get more out of it early on is never a bad thing. Personally, 1 win should give you the reward as in GvG.

P.S. Floor you babe.

they should switch all pve characters into pvp characters for a week, and overflow pvp arenas

/win

Unless PvP is forced and not consensual (aka rape), there will always be individuals who avoid PvP at whatever cost. I learned this full well when I played Aion, and carebears just avoided all PvP prone areas at all times, whined about getting ganked, etc.

All PvP games should always have PvP that is not consensual. For example, in the middle of a vanquish, you will be randomly pit against another party that is vanquishing the same area. The losing party will be sent back to the last outpost they were in, having to start the vanquish all over again.

This forces players to either get better competitively, or literally be unable to progress at whatever they are doing. It will force alot of players to quit, perhaps, but these are not the players a PvP game cares for anyway.

optional PvP is basically the death of any PvP game.

But I don't want to get raped.
I would not even consider to buy such a game with open PvP. I did not even buy Prophecies when it was new and a friend recommended it to me, since it was said that the endgame would be pvp. Not for me.
I finally bought GW when he begged repeatedly over the years and EOTN came out. At that time, it was clear that there was a PvE endgame and a lot of PvE content without being forced to PvP, so it was something I could consider.

I don't think I harm the PvP community with this understanding of the game, because it makes no difference, if I don't enter pvp or if I don't enter the game at all. However, having bought the game and having paid for it, helped in a different way: it helped funding the life team and the game support in general.

I suggest a more open minded view to the two communities. They have very different views and goals, but they also have an intersection. Don't force one upon the other.

You might wanna take a look at this.

I understand that the current hom rewards are pve-centric. This is unfair to the pvp-only players. But how is this connected to the dwindling pvp community? Repairing the hom is like increasing the rewards for pvp-play only. It couldn't create new pvp-capable players out of thin air.

I also guess I understand why there are not 2 distinct halls, one for pvp and one for pve. The developers really try to hold the community together. It's one game we are playing after all, so there is one hall. Splitting the hom will officially split the game in 2 halves, and this is perhaps less healthy in the long run than the current situation. I'm no dev or game specialist - I don't know what matters here.

Increase the rewards for the pvp titles in a way that 50 reward points can be achieved with only these titles, and give access to the hall for pvp characters. But will that bring more players to pvp in the long run? I don't think so.

If not already made clear, nothing personal, but you and your PvE ilk are what I (we?) want to get rid of. By disuading PvE players from joining the game, it actually attracts PvP players INTO the game, so TBQH, I really don't see anything wrong here.

But yes. You do. By having PvE players in this game, it gives the devs an incentive to put resources in the PvE side of the game, and not the PvP side of the game. Unfortunately resources are limited, and resources going into PvE means resources not going into PvP. Additionally, having game that completely revolves around PvP futher caters to PvP players, and hence will attract More PvP players. Look at games like League of Legends or Starcraft/II for example.

As explained above, the two cannot "co-exist." One will take the place of another. Unfortunately GuildWars, originally intended to be a PvP-centered game, eventually became a PvE-centered game because of the above.

Yes, get rid of the PVE players. I'm sure the PVP players can easily keep the game going and make ANET money on their own. To be honest, PVP players need PVE players far more than they seem to realise.