Live Team PAX News - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Mouse at Large

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Scotland

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

31 Aug 2011 at 07:32 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

No it just requires intelligent use of a skill instead of spamming it on recharge. Gale is the perfect example. It's a powerful spell with a short recharge which would normally allow it to be spammed. Exhaustion forces the player to be intelligent in his use of the skill: he cannot spam it so he must use it tactfully or he will get hit with a significant punishment. It's an outstanding pvp mechanic.

As this proposition stands, all it does is penalise effective spells. For this to be a viable option, I would suggest that any spells it affects would have to be considerably buffed. Then I could (perhaps) see the point as it would promote careful targeting over spamming. Still don't see this as an "outstanding pvp mechanic"

And on a general point, without having to rework a whole heap of individual ele spells, you could increase the pvp effectiveness of eles by making Intensity affect spells to give a) extra AP based on levels in ES b) convert damage to armour ignoring c) add + x damage based on levels in ES or some combination of all three. Only 1 spell to change rather than a complete rework

*Edit* Of course, I'd love to see a revamp on the other problem areas as AndrewSX mentions, but I'd rather see something done immediately to boost ele damage effectiveness whilst continuing to work on other problems. I'm greedy - I want jam today AND jam tomorrow

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

31 Aug 2011 at 07:59 - 82

I have to choose between make a pve skill godlike (forcing all eles to use it to be succesful) or do a major overhaul, i prefer the latter, even if takes more time/effort.

Dmg isn't the only problem...Wards, Water Line, Glyphs, PBAoE (only on self), DoTAoE (since scattering AI), and E-management....all this stuff needs help (in different measures).

Btw, i'm waiting for Ranger updates too. Traps, Rituals, Preparations, Pets need rework just like Elementalist do. Can't say on Para (never palyed 1 seriously)... Smiting is the last in line imo.

-All by PvE perspective.

urania

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2006

vD

Mo/

31 Aug 2011 at 08:27 - 83

smiting has always either been too good or too shitty to bother with given the alternatives. i dont know why they go down that rabbit hole again.

aspi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

eeew

N/Rt

31 Aug 2011 at 08:36 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

smiting has always either been too good or too shitty to bother with given the alternatives. i dont know why they go down that rabbit hole again.

Because the jesus beam owns :S
Ok just one skill but still I do hope they manage to make a good smiting monk. I deleted all my previous attempts with monking because I find it incredibly boring.

instanceskiller

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2008

Myst

A/

31 Aug 2011 at 10:26 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Keep in mind that I just listed the way I did, because that's how Anet did.

I did keep that in mind. What I simply meant by I did not like the way you listed it, was that you listed them as though they were THE least viable pve options of all professions AND attributes, when there were others. I'm sure Anet did not say they were the least viable, just that they were currently looking at them as they were among the most least viable offensive professions/attribute lines.

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

31 Aug 2011 at 10:52 - 86

I don't see what's so outstanding on the exhaustion mechanic. Gale is probably the only or one of the very few good exceptions. Well, shock and maybe Mind Shock, as well. Anything else? Other than a few skills, exhaustion is a boring mechanic, as the moment it is applied, it is glued there in your energy bar for 30*x seconds.

Having some skills that removed 30secs of exhastion tied to already-used energy-management skills, preferebly the ones with high recharge (ex: glyph of lesser energy, and more), and then sticking exhaustion to a lot more of good skills, would probably make things far more interesting. An ele would have to manage his exhaustion level by not spamming too much skills in-between the recharge of the glyph, but at the same time, they would be able to exhaust himself enough because they would be able to remove (some of) it. More interactive, would take more advantage of energy storage as it is, and then please, please remove the annoying attunement gimmick and make skills cheaper (but with the exhaustion).

Meanwhile, as their plans for exhaustion take into consideration cross-profession combos, it seems like they're trying for something quite the opposite. If so, energy storage as it is probably won't be needed anymore, which would also present a good opportunity to make it work like the attunements, and then please, please remove the annoying attunement gimmick.

But I won't get my expectations high for this. Skill changes will be enough to make me happy.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

31 Aug 2011 at 10:59 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

It would be interesting if Exhaustion were a damage reduction effect rather than energy, then it could be applied to any profession. For example, exhaustion could do a 20% damage reduction, of where 20% is recovered in 30 seconds. Using a spammable skill 5 times would then nearly put your damage output to zero. This would include all martial and spell damage. Damage dealing skills with exhausting would deal it's damage and effect and exhaustion would affect any following damage.

That equals granting all enemies you hit virtual 8 armor.

With this setup, no-one would use exhaustion causing skills because 10% damage reduction lasting 30 secconds (yay for integrals) is very powerfull.

Spikes would definitelly not do it and neither would pressure.

That is not interesting, that is stupid.

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

31 Aug 2011 at 11:07 - 88

Maybe decrease the ele's casting and recharge times, and then have exhaustion increase them the higher it gets?

This way, you would have to trade; spam your powerful stuff for a spike, but then tone down a bit or else you get too easy to interrupt or blackout your bar. (If so, exhaustion would need to take less time, say 10s instead of 30s for each spell; it would still be time enough to slow down the ele for a bit).

Need an urgent ward + some movement KD? Considering both would cause exhaustion and be stronger than they currently are because of that, you would cast them. But then you would want to tone down the frequency of your spell casting, should the team need you to spike assist not much later on, and you wouldn't want your 1s cast time spike spells to be turned into 2s cast time because of excessive exhaustion.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

31 Aug 2011 at 12:52 - 89

I still prefer old model of decreasing energy cap.

It does not punish you untill you start abusing short recharges. It is resource management, not yet another buff/debuff.

Lack of immediate reprecutions allows skillfull use - something that ideas here lack as they are starting to punish player the very first time he uses exhausting skill which means that skillfull use would be to simply ignore all skills with exhaustion unless they are way off power scale.

(Yes, I have platonic relationship with exhaustion.)

Bristlebane

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

Mo/

31 Aug 2011 at 12:54 - 90

How do heroes handle exhaustion skills? Do they spam it mindlessly or are they more conservative with those once they got exhaustion?

jazilla

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]

E/Me

31 Aug 2011 at 14:24 - 91

so i can be looking forward to these ele changes after gw2 gets released? i say this because we were told AGES ago that paragon changes were happening. now i see that the para changes are buried below the ele and ranger changes. don't get me wrong, as an ele main i am thrilled(my only dedicated pvp slot is a ranger so i am thrilled about this too). I am bummed though that the para is not getting the love it was promised first.

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

31 Aug 2011 at 14:42 - 92

I'm worried too for the timeline of those changes..remember how long took the Derv one?

I hope that they've already sketched what they want to do for Eles and maybe Rangers. Or we won't really see this stuff before GW2 release, lol.

urania

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2006

vD

Mo/

31 Aug 2011 at 14:59 - 93

GW2 won't be coming out that soon.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

31 Aug 2011 at 15:04 - 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

A monk is stuck as a healer, or a healer. A smiting monk can be good at times, but they don't want people stuck in the roles of a healer, in the triumvirate of healer/tank/damage.

I agree SP could use an overhaul, but armor-ignoring AoE and a bevy of support skills (which deal damage) is hardly being "stuck as a healer". I'm fine with the idea of an update, but it belongs at the bottom of the list of professions that are on life support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Ranger changes; Shouldn't need a whole lot.

They're as "past due" as the elementalist. Many give up the bow except for pulling. Let's not even get into pets, traps and overall embarrassing balance that makes PvE feel like PvP.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

31 Aug 2011 at 16:29 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

How do heroes handle exhaustion skills? Do they spam it mindlessly or are they more conservative with those once they got exhaustion?

Depends on scenario. If you are running Invokers and they lose their enchants, they will happily spam until the whole bar is gray.

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

04 Sep 2011 at 17:09 - 96

In my opinion they should stop making Smiting armor ignoring and give it its own unique mechanic.

My proposal? Anti-necromancer. All necromancers can take more damage against Holy. There for, although smiting will not be as powerful as elementalist magic, it will have the niche of countering the much-overpowered necromancers. It would be interesting in PvP, and a great addition in PvE to slightly nerf MMs indirectly (Come on, they're more OP than SY!), and to easily rid of pesky targets.

But eh, I aint know what they really have in store. *shrug*

instanceskiller

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2008

Myst

A/

04 Sep 2011 at 17:21 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

In my opinion they should stop making Smiting armor ignoring and give it its own unique mechanic.

My proposal? Anti-necromancer. All necromancers can take more damage against Holy. There for, although smiting will not be as powerful as elementalist magic, it will have the niche of countering the much-overpowered necromancers. It would be interesting in PvP, and a great addition in PvE to slightly nerf MMs indirectly (Come on, they're more OP than SY!), and to easily rid of pesky targets.

But eh, I aint know what they really have in store. *shrug*

Not quite sure if I like the change you proposed or not, but I doubt Anet would touch it too much as the armor ignoring damage of monks smiting prayers as it is mentioned in the guild wars manuscripts:
"Smiting Prayers, on the other hand, call down divine anger on enemies, exacting holy damage that ignores armor"

Saying that, Robert Gee did say on wiki;
"we are also considering toning down the power of the armor-ignoring damage as well", so perhaps they may touch it slightly, yes, but making it non-armor ignoring I still doubt.

X monkey boy X

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2010

England

Deasolation lords

Me/

04 Sep 2011 at 17:32 - 98

I hope they don't nerf Er as a feel that it would effectivly remove what's left of eles from high end pve play making uwsc impossible for pugs and would make it much harder for people learning, this would anger the sc guilds which is basicly what's left in pve.

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

04 Sep 2011 at 18:50 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by X monkey boy X

I hope they don't nerf Er as a feel that it would effectivly remove what's left of eles from high end pve play

The point of this update is probably to make eles viable for pve again, so they can nerf ER all they want as long as the other changes are worth it.

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

04 Sep 2011 at 20:15 - 100

Above 2 posts are both right... ER is a delicate point.

Nerfing or touching it making E/Mo bonders/protters disappear would be a very hard hit for high end pve(used in dungeons more than once), and some Sc's too (Uwsc/Doasc in particular).

On the other hand, if armor-ignoring dmg is going to be toned down while Ele's output gets pumped a bit, is still possible to see them take place as new spikers.

Btw, nothing can be discussed at this state of the update, where it is just an anticipation of future plans with a single (rarely used) elite.

P.S: the discussion occur on some others Ele's spells, mostly the ones from Earth magic used to tank...their real use outside Sc's is nearly 0, but i don't think Anet will really change them...not when nowadays PvE is almost reduced to Sc.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

04 Sep 2011 at 20:31 - 101

ER certainly needs a nerf. Infinite energy is overpowered, anyone who disagrees is either retarded or trying to troll. It should never be possible to be invincible in a high end area, there should always be a chance of death if you slip up.

Ideally other imba PvE protection should be nerfed as well, namely ST rits and SY. ST rits certainly have no excuse at all for being in the game since rits have plenty of power in the rest of their skill set; SY at least has the distinction of being the only lifeline for paragons/rangers who can't do anything but generate adrenaline.

X monkey boy X

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2010

England

Deasolation lords

Me/

05 Sep 2011 at 00:59 - 102

while they could nerf er we didn't always run a emo, while im sure it would dent the times for trenchway runs it would not stop them though i feel the effect in uw would be much worse though. while dhuum can be done without a emo im sure it would be beyond pugs to do so. my point is that while the player base has been reduced we can still out think the 5 people in the live team that will try to fix it :P

Plutoman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2010

E/

05 Sep 2011 at 01:16 - 103

While it might damage the current SC's, they'll find other ways - people always have. If Ele's are changed up in other ways to be more viable, then an ER nerf is also viable - however, if the changes are not sufficient to create a use for ele's, then nerfing ER just nerfs the rest of the elementalist.

jimbo32

Site Contributor

Join Date: Aug 2008

Canada

Gentlemens Club [GC]

W/

05 Sep 2011 at 04:03 - 104

Why are we talking about speedclearing like it's something that deserves consideration from the Live Team? It's essentially an exploit, and I don't think most players would be sad if all SC's were nerfed out of existence.

This weird idea that PvE is somehow dominated by the SC is ridiculous. Most casual players probably wouldn't even know what the term means. I've been playing GW for years, and I don't know one person who regularly participates in SC'ing.

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

05 Sep 2011 at 04:18 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo32

Why are we talking about speedclearing like it's something that deserves consideration from the Live Team? It's essentially an exploit, and I don't think most players would be sad if all SC's were nerfed out of existence.

This weird idea that PvE is somehow dominated by the SC is ridiculous. Most casual players probably wouldn't even know what the term means. I've been playing GW for years, and I don't know one person who regularly participates in SC'ing.

Even though I SC a lot I am inclined to agree here....the SC community like the pvp community is small yet vocal....nerfing sc's wouldn't hurt as many as the vocal might think.

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

05 Sep 2011 at 06:00 - 106

The point is that ideal balance, even if can obtained with some skill changes, might be sacrificed to keep alive (or better..happy) some parts of community, and the SC one is pretty much like the PvP one....small but as you said quite vocal.

Seriously, deleting sc from the face of gw wouldn't be difficult at all. If they left them (even trough some nerfs) is because destroying them could create a loss of PvE players which already done everything and stay on GW only for having fun(and getting money) in SC. I know lots of person like that. I'm not saying that pve would die or all high pve players wantss only SC, but there are quite some at this stage of the game.

shadowfell

hamonite anur ruk

Join Date: Jan 2006

Echovald Forest

[PhD] Teh Academy

Me/A

05 Sep 2011 at 06:58 - 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo32

Why are we talking about speedclearing like it's something that deserves consideration from the Live Team? It's essentially an exploit, and I don't think most players would be sad if all SC's were nerfed out of existence.

This weird idea that PvE is somehow dominated by the SC is ridiculous. Most casual players probably wouldn't even know what the term means. I've been playing GW for years, and I don't know one person who regularly participates in SC'ing.

I'd not miss speed clearing at all. I don't care for the mentality that comes with it. 'GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO'

What ever happened to actually killing everything in the instance and doing the quests or I dunno.. having fun doing those things? Why does everyone have to rush to the end so quickly?

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

05 Sep 2011 at 08:56 - 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

I'd not miss speed clearing at all. I don't care for the mentality that comes with it. 'GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO'

What ever happened to actually killing everything in the instance and doing the quests or I dunno.. having fun doing those things? Why does everyone have to rush to the end so quickly?

I blame HoM and people wanting to just have everything as fast as possible.

Me? I'm almost at 25/30, and I only have Skill Hunters, two or so Cartographers and maybe one of the PvE titles to finish, nothing big. Not in a hurry to get EVERYTHING NOW NOW NOW!!!11

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

UK

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

W/

05 Sep 2011 at 09:21 - 109

If Eles are being buffed to be worthwhile damage dealers, then an ER nerf seems imminent.

honnaja

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2005

UK

LoF, Rtr

05 Sep 2011 at 09:27 - 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

I'd not miss speed clearing at all. I don't care for the mentality that comes with it. 'GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO'

What ever happened to actually killing everything in the instance and doing the quests or I dunno.. having fun doing those things? Why does everyone have to rush to the end so quickly?

<claps> Well said!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I blame HoM and people wanting to just have everything as fast as possible.

... Not in a hurry to get EVERYTHING NOW NOW NOW!!!11

<nods> I agree.

I partcularly think of a guildie here, who I recall going for a certain title.. It was like they hated it, but HAD to do it to get the title. They'd log in and 'grind' this title, unable to do other things that they wanted to/were invited to, etc..
Needless to say, it didn't take too long from then for them to become bored of GW and leave

I tend to do what I feel like doing, whether that's doing a bit of work on a title, doing a z-quest, messing about with storage/inventory, doing a bit of AB/JQ/FA, getting a char. to NF epilogue for a piece of armour, challenging my heroes (ok me

) with DoA, etc..
I think this is why I still enjoy the game: I treat it as a game - to relax and enjoy. If I get fed up with it, I have a break for a while. I'd like at least 40/50 on one a/c and 30/50 on the other (although only one will probably count..?), but I'm not gonna get my knickers in a twist over it. It'll come with time :P

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

05 Sep 2011 at 10:18 - 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

I'd not miss speed clearing at all. I don't care for the mentality that comes with it. 'GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO'

What ever happened to actually killing everything in the instance and doing the quests or I dunno.. having fun doing those things? Why does everyone have to rush to the end so quickly?

Speedclearing is a natural end point of optimization of PvE gameplay.

jimbo32

Site Contributor

Join Date: Aug 2008

Canada

Gentlemens Club [GC]

W/

05 Sep 2011 at 10:56 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Speedclearing is a natural end point of optimization of PvE gameplay.

Teams which depend on poorly-balanced skills to achieve a result which was unintended by the original design (finishing UW in 20 minutes for instance) is hardly a "natural end point". It's an exploit of shitty design.

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

05 Sep 2011 at 11:53 - 113

After 6+ years of game and lack of real content updates/expansions apart wik-hotn-woc for long time i think is normal that people wants to do stuff fast. They did it endless times already.

In THIS enviroment SC are the natural end of PvE. For most players at least..other options are generally a-pass to pvp b-keep repeating stuff as always c-leave the game.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

05 Sep 2011 at 13:04 - 114

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo32

Teams which depend on poorly-balanced skills to achieve a result which was unintended by the original design (finishing UW in 20 minutes for instance) is hardly a "natural end point". It's an exploit of shitty design.

The design allows it, so it's not really an exploit. Content like FoW/UW provides and rewards the party, even though in SC you don't play as one. The party splits the quests and all reap the collective reward at the end. This would be a non-issue if it worked more like Dragon's Lair, teleporting the team from area to area without allowing it all to be done in parallel sequence by splitting.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

05 Sep 2011 at 13:10 - 115

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Speedclearing is a natural end point of optimization of PvE gameplay.

You know, I remember this time in the past. It was before endless title grinding and rampant loot whoring, where the natural end of PvE players was to start PvPing. Somehow both PvP and PvE worked a lot better back then.

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

05 Sep 2011 at 22:19 - 116

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

What ever happened to actually killing everything in the instance and doing the quests or I dunno.. having fun doing those things? Why does everyone have to rush to the end so quickly?

Now and then, I jokingly say in the middle of Zaishen quests "MUST GET ZCOINS NOW!!!" whenever someone says to hurry up.

That's exactly the point. People only have 24 hours in a day to get their three accounts worth of characters the ZCoins necessary to get that 100 Gold Coin weapon that you probably don't have. After all, if I have something you don't, I'm better.

/sarcasm

Beliarchia Targon

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2011

N/Mo

06 Sep 2011 at 01:35 - 117

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

I'd not miss speed clearing at all. I don't care for the mentality that comes with it. 'GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO'

What ever happened to actually killing everything in the instance and doing the quests or I dunno.. having fun doing those things? Why does everyone have to rush to the end so quickly?

As Devil's advocate, I would suggest that anyone GOGOGOGO'ing their way through a speedclear probably has killed everything in the instance, done the quests, and had fun doing so. And having done so in the past, they are now more interested in rushing to the end to rapidly earn rewards, than in repeating stuff they've done before at a leisurely pace.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

06 Sep 2011 at 02:27 - 118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

The design allows it, so it's not really an exploit.

Just because the design allows it does not mean its not horribly flawed. Its in no way exploiting an area or skills as much as it is exploiting the live teams inability to balance.

Fluffy Kittens

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2009

06 Sep 2011 at 09:37 - 119

Why dont they just remove shadowform...
Also uw is easily done within 1hour with only 3 players (who of course run other 5 players for a fee of 100k and then sell their money/ectos and whatnot on QQ forums)
So yeah if SC teams get a nerf I think some people would be quite pissed.

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

06 Sep 2011 at 16:49 - 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

So yeah if SC teams get a nerf I think some people would be quite pissed.

That's the same kind of piss as people who played TA/HB for months and got it deleted all suddenly...

But anyway, at the point of the game, i think their objective isn't to make a mass of players leave the game, considering farming is the only thing left and that ectos got a certain use on an other forum, linked to real life....