Why you should PvP

if it's not pvp, why is there other human players on the other team?

sorry, i've played the game for 4 years and i'm still terrible at weapon swapping and kiting. i've seen top players die in aoe cause they wanted to kill something, or dying to npc in bases because they forget what skills they have. and these are players that have won multiple gold capes.

the amount of times i've gotten my WoH dshot in 4v4 is a lot less than when i've played 8v8. also in smaller arenas you have more "power" heals like patient spirit, and you also have a lot more defence with dual stances etc. so losing WoH isn't as game changing as losing maybe RC or infuse in a gvg.

I don't want to spend most of the precious time I have available for gaming on arranging get-togethers, coordinating builds, staring at countdown timers, going on youtube or facebook, or whatever.

That's not something you need to learn. That's something you either will or will not put up with.

If I have to wait for coffee, but there's another drink available that I also enjoy and won't have to wait for, I'll go for the other drink. It's not a matter of failing mental capabilities, it's a matter of investment vs. reward. Anyone who can't see that other people might have other priorities and preferences... "needs help".

I played a lot of AB during one of the Factions previews, when you didn't need to party up for it. That was pretty awesome. Tried it after Factions came out and found it to be too much bother. I still think it's a shame they made that change. Oh well, there's still costume brawl, a few days a year.

When people AoE the shrines and run around not even having any contact with the other human teams... I don't call that real PvP.

You might be terrible at weapon swapping/kiting, but it's still better than people sitting in 40/40 sets eating melee damage. At least you know what it is and how to do it. It's pretty much guaranteed that top players know, but they may have a temporary lapse (or the last hit killing an NPC may be more important than getting out of AoE?).

GvG itself has gotten more fast-paced than before. We have bigger heals, bigger damage, less risk. Compare an Invoke Lightning elementalist to a 2005 Chain lightning /lightning orb flagger. Or Healing Burst compared to the old Blessed Light and Boon Prot. Or any warrior to a current Dervish. Builds were more flexible then, but they had less power. They arguably were harder to play well (lol monk energy management in the form of Offering of Blood/Mantra of Recall ; warriors on frenzy compared to Dervish ; Ether Prodigy eles were reliant in energy swapping more than any ele build we have now unless you want to eat buckets of self inflicted damage; Powerblock mesmers compared to the Energy surge stuff).

When I say 4v4 amplifies mistakes I mean that your teammates are less able to cover for you. Going to tell your warrior to lineback in RA/AB is rare if even seen at all. Having Bonetti's /Balanced/Disciplined/Shield Bash is useless against mesmers and marginally useful against air eles.

I do agree with some of what the OP is saying. I enjoy Low end PvP, AB, JQ, FA (and to a lesser extent codex). It seems more rewarding to me than doing PvE over and over. However, PvE is still fun if you have an organised group, on vent or mumble, doing say an elite area.

My problem with this is, I (and I assume there are some who share my view) don't want to try doing HA/Non-Alliance Codex/GvG just to be called a noob and be told to go back to PvE.

Now I know that playing with guildmates would help solve this, but unless you're in a PvP oriented guild, you'll struggle to organize and find people who want to seriously try higher end pvp.

As for AB/JQ not being "real PvP"... PvP is player versus player... The other team is players, so are you. GvG has just as many NPCs as JQ

Do what I did, have someone farm your rank for you. I can just walk around HA spamming my tiger until I get picked.

Money has it's advantages

I have enjoyed both OP. Your language is pretty aggressive too. One of the reasons people want to play PvE is that they get to play co-operatively with people they like. I also agree with your statement that a LOT of people get turned off by elitism from the GW PvP community. I will mention some things you forgot to mention as well: botting, smurfing, griefing, syncing, quitters in RA, long wait times in AB, FA, JQ etc. For every reason you give to play PvP there are reasons not to play it. I never fault my friends that PvE only for not trying out PvP more.

Of course if you go straight to the SC community you'll get shut down for not meeting their requirements (even if they're ridiculous as stones can be bought).
Speed Clears are done to maximize efficiency by means that require particular setups and experience in what you're doing.
If you don't play PvE in 2 years and don't have PvE skills you're just probably slowing them down or making them fail even if you know the zone very well (not mentioning pugs have already a greater chance of failing due to failure in communications).

Just do it like me, if you don't like them just don't play with them, and that's one of the reasons i don't SC any more.

What would make people who consider themselves a PVE'er get interested in PvP?

In response to some previous posts I don't see why people should be taken out of their "comfort zone" if they don't want to. It is a game, games are meant to be fun. I think more emphasis that working and improving with a bunch of individuals is quite fun is more likely to help.

No, you do not. You think you have quite a lot of experience in PvE, just like Borat thinks he's one of the best GvG players around. But he is not, and neither are you. There's a whole lot more to PvE, including plain having fun, but since you only care about the competitive aspects of it then here's a list of what competitive PvE really is like. Tell me how many of these you can truthfully answer "yes" to.

1. Have you ever done UW HM 7H with no cons?
2. Have you ever done Ooze Pit HM solo in less than 6 minutes?
3. Have you ever done endless 20 minute runs to Plains and Wastes to test a new UW strategy?
4. Have you ever spent 2 hours slaving through UW HM and then get wiped in less than 2 minutes by Dhuum?
5. Have you ever done and redone a mission with minor build tweaks to see just how fast you can get it to be?
6. Do you know how to get monsters to ball around a tank?

I can safely say you have not, to most of these questions. You can pretend you're experienced at PvE the same way Borat can pretend he's experienced at GvG. But after all is said and done, you are wrong, and you cannot claim that PvP is "the best part of GW" and better than PvE because you have no ****ing idea what high-end PvE is like.

Here's another post that really gets on my nerves. The comparison is so patently unfair that I have to shake my head in wonder. "All" PvE players are more "stuck up" than casual PvP players?? Have you any idea how many casual PvE players there are out there? Do you know that there are plenty of guilds that will take you along for a UW clear, even though they may actually fail, they actually have fun doing it? There are waaaaay more casual PvE players than there are casual PvP players, and there are waaaaay more "stuck up" PvP players by proportion than there are "stuck up" PvE players. Of course you could compare the serious PvE players to the casual PvP players, except that would be a joke, as much a joke as comparing casual PvE players to serious PvP players. Hey guys, that R12 guy won't let me into his party, do I have to do something (i.e. win Halls) 1000 times before he accepts me?

PvP players should stay out of PvE discussions, and vice versa. You can comment on PvE, just don't act all authoritative about it.

Couldn't agree more!!!

I PvP around 75% & PvE around 25% (mostly farming - zoins, cons/mats). I play RA multiple times per week. I play FA JQ AB pretty much ONLY on event days/weekends. Why? Because there's virtually no wait time to play. Would I like to HA & GvG? YES! Do I try to join PUGS for HA? Yes. Is it successful? Rarely. Do I try to get guest invites during GvG events? Yes. Is that tactic successful? Only or twice in 3 years.

So why haven't I organized a friends list of players that will accept me into those 2 venues? Cause like most things in life, it's not who you know, it's who knows you. All you can do as an individual is make/create the opportunity. It's analagous to getting a job. You can create the resume, submit the application, get the interview... but you don't GET the job unless SOMEONE ELSE hires you! HA & GvG team forming serve to fuction in this manner because it REQUIRES organization. Some call it "elitism". In reality it's the structure that ANET created.

ANET can't fix this issue! They tried with Embark beach to create an outpost where everyone would go to look for anything. Players don't use it. Is that ANET's fault? Not really. ONLY the player base can solve this problem! We need "as a group" to use an outpost (IN GAME FORMAT) to organize. Can ANET assist the player base by putting message in login screens to motivate people to use it? Yes. Will players use it if it's "advertized"? One can only hope.

Think of it this way, if you want a dungeon run, which outpost do you sit in and LFG dungeon run? Answer: Doomlore. Why there? Because it's common knowledge that runners advertise there. If you wanna sell/buy something, where do you go? Smapadan. Why? Because it's common knowledge. The crux is, how does the player base create common knowledge of an outpost for team forming in those "elitist venues"?

side note to Pugging HA.... If your lucky, sitting in HA ID1 spamming LFG might only take 1/2 hr to get picked up on a PUG that will probably lose & the team breaks up. Why? Because when you play in that organized venue AS A PUG, my experience (PUGGING around 750 HA matches with only 175 fame) has shown that I generally lose. The loss happens because individual player "skill" is less important when on a PUG than the communication that is afforded an organized team (non-PUG). When you lose, it's not generally only because of you. When you win, it's not generally only because of you.

Not really true. Before my break from GW, qknocking was known only to the best players. After I returned, I learned that most warriors can, at least in theory, achieve qknock. So I had to learn that trick and it took me about 5 minutes to reliably qknock (didn't have to be perfect) with either hammer or axe.

There are many AB guilds that take this format very seriously. Their skill level far surpasses that of your usual RA player. It's mostly because they are actually former TA players that slightly adjusted their playstyle from TA to AB (ie. from running pressure builds to mostly spike-type build). Beating them on fair square 4v4 or with some minor help from proper usage of shrines to your advantage is greatly rewarding.

He said he might have not been high-end pve so I don't know why your reply got that aggresive tone. Maybe his starting paragraphs was too much for many guruposters, but his right about it if you look at it from this angle:
in PvE you win 90%, in ideal PvP it's only 50%.

I, myself, have done a lot in PvE, including getting GWAMM (nothing special these days apparently, but still) but I don't even consider myself PvE player. PvE is like a distraction from more serious PvP at least, for me.

Also, OP doesn't want a situation where PvE players go to try high-end PvP. He gave advice how to start learning ropes in more friendly-to-casuals PvP mode, like AB. I know many people won't even call it PvP cause of its alleged mobbing/nuking shrines/whatever else, but it's still better place to learn PvP than in RA which is atm cesspool and the recent update hasn't changed anything in that matter.

This is one of the best posts that I have seen on this forum in awhile (from a few pages back in this thread). I wanted to bring it up again because it really does point out the most common reasons that I see as being the reasons why more people don't PvP. As I have already stated, points 2 and 4 in this post (along with time constraints, which is not addressed) are the reasons why I dont play competitive PvP.

I also wanted to say that the comparison with internet gaming and sports on the prior page is completely rediculous. One requires intense (and painful) training in quickness, speed, endurance, and strength. The other one requires lots of time spent in front of a computer looking at pixels while exercising your fingers and wrists.

My comment about social skills was not aimed at the pvp community it was a bit of a dig at your controversial style of posting.
Reading through your post again and the replies I have been working out why I do not pvp.

Firstly as I said I am a role player I do not have toons I have characters with a history and strengths and weaknesses.
So pvp is not really my thing unless there was a role playing reason to do it part of the storyline if you will.

The other reason for not playing pvp is It is a frustrating and ultimately disappointing exercise.
pvp needs a decent learning arena a place where players can find their feet make mistakes learn from them and hopefully get better.

Those so called experts should be playing in a different league one which we will join when we think we are ready.
What we do not need is a bunch of self styled know it alls "not you btw" who demand that everything shall be done their way.

Friends I know and trust have a right to advise me on builds and play styles others do not.
It is only by making mistakes that I can lean to be good at pvp taking someone else's build and playing it how they say it should be played makes me second rate.

The "experts" inhabit pve too and its mostly why many players go solo these days.
They are not doing it to be anti social they are trying to enjoy the game and avoid the truly anti social players who having gained a little knowledge think they are better than everyone else and spoil the game.

I agree that players should garner some interest in PvP. The problem is the 'casual' excuse.

IMO calling yourself casual is just another excuse for your own ignorance. It's typical in Western Society, and it is called the 'not in my backyard' problem. If it doesn't affect you directly then you don't care, even if you can make a change for the better.

Now the other side of the story, is elitism. Some kid yelling in RA doesn't bother me cuz I really don't care what artards online say, but for new players to PvP who are looking for advice, well, toughen up, read some guides, it's the internet.

Another reason is older players are less competitive. Most teens want to play fighting games and beat the snot out of each other. I don't understand older people because they seem to want to sit back and relax when playing a video game.

My version of sitting back and relaxing is my social life and the real world. I play video games for the adrenaline rush that I cannot experience IRL because you cannot go around cutting people with a sword.

The problem with all this is an unstoppable force (pvp elitism) meets an unmovable object (stubborn casual scrubbery). The only result of this is flame and rage. Ranger using WoH, RAGE.

In the end both extremes screw things up. People need to chill out and try different things. Don't be forced into something, but don't live in your own box. Try for moderation.

It's more like "I don't like losing". In PvP, someone has to lose so others will be victorious. There's a reason why all those new games are much easier than they were in past and why the easiest difficulty setting is usually called 'casual' unlike simple 'easy'.

Strictly speaking no, but embark beach just doesn't have the features necessary to facilitate formation. Organizing via voip, guild/alliance, f-list allows someone to do something else at the same time; whether that be a mission, vanquishing, farming, RA, etc. With embark beach you have to physically stand in embark beach, which limits your options to near nothing. A 30 minute set-up time while one is off playing the game is a lot less significant than a 30 minute set-up time where all you can do is look for people. This reason alone is why Embark Beach (or any other in-game location) won't work without an overhaul of chat channels and functions (such as the user created global WoW channels).

As my side note: don't. This, and I would go as far as to say this alone, is where the "elitist jerk" stereotype of PvP players has come from. I've said this many times, but it seems to just fall upon deaf ears. By far most of the people that are forming PuG groups there are doing so because no one wants to play with them; people in the PvP community actively avoid them. I am rank 10, I can get into these groups based on my rank, but I never do; I already know that I do not want to play with those groups.

I only play PvP for fun, ever since I joined attracted by the PvP free weekends.
I don't care about winning or losing as much as just having fun.
But in competitive gameplay, the higher you get, the less fun it becomes.

But I get bored after a while when I see everyone bringing the same builds and doing the same things as if they had the same AI. It was fun when they added new skills and people started trying new things... until the meta settled and people started using the same OP builds.
And it¡s fun to see how some things change with each flux... until the meta settlement happens again.

That's why I prefer "random join" and "random party" and I would even like to see "random builds" that you don't get to choose, but are given to you instead.
It makes things change more often, and people can't bring that 'perfect team' they have calculated.
A good swordsman shouldn't get worse if he has to use a sword that isn't his.
A good CS:S shouldn't get worse when he was to use a any but his favorite gun.
A good GW player shouldn't be bad just because they have to use a build they didn't chose.


I think I will probably play much, much more in WvW than in PvP in GW2. And more than I have played in GW1.

This is possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on a gaming forum.

Calling people ignorant for not caring about a certain facet of an obscure little corner of a six year old game? The irony is staggering.

For the record, AB does have a good level of competition depending on the hours you play. A lot of people have "retired" there from GvG/HA/TA in search of something relaxed but still, idk, interesting.

It's just I don't like the pvp part of GW. It's boring and no fun at all for me. I always enjoyed pvp in fps games like unreal/quake. Quite difficult to compare but pvp nonetheless.

thats the type we prefer not to meet too often, sorry. not very rewarding nor fun stomping helpless sheep into the ground.

oh and there's an iron-clad rule: dont pug. anywhere.

So you mean to say that casual player who joins RA and has an inferior build is not ignorant of superior builds?

Example, casual goes to RA and has no elite skill. I ask him or her why. The answer 'Elites are too good i must be original and have no elite'. This to me is the entire 'casual' argument. Players just don't understand that all skills are NOT equal, there is just too many of them that interact with each other.

It's not the build. It's how you play it. The whole 'too casual to run the best build that suits me' is an excuse for lack of skill and awareness.

How does this

have anything to do with this?

You make a broad sweeping statement and you're backing it up with an insignificant little example. Doesn't work.

And to answer the question, the casual player who joins RA with a crap build may well be aware of superior builds. Maybe he just can't be bothered to go buy more skills and cap that elite that evening.

Good builds are very easy to unlock. If you've put the 20 hours or so into the game to beat the story and whatever, then you will have access to any elite skill in the campaign you are playing.

My broad sweeping statement applies to all 'casuals'. If your build is inferior and you try to back it up it means you are a scrub who doesn't play to win.

I'm not saying slightly inferior, for example, Magehunter's smash vs Dev hammer, both can work. I'm saying Dwarven battle stance on a hammer warrior trying to make it work, what a joke.

people who play pve need to harden up, its a pvp for a reason - competitive, you need the right mindset if you want to succeed, take it on the chin and stop being such pansies.

People who own radios need to man up and listen to ALL channels. Take it on the chin and stop being such pansies.

Pvp is a valid form of fun for some as well as pve.

Why try to beat into someone's head a form of fun different from their own in regards to game-play?

AB is a great place to start out at! A friend of mine is a regular ABer and when I joined him one day, I was amazed at how complex the game can actually be. Not as complex as GvG, but being skilled takes you far and it isn't as hard to learn.

Please refer to your last statement. PvE experience does not come from how fast you can do something.

Besides time and party size, what?

Looks like you don't either. Out of your list, only number 2 can be considered "high-end"

Elitism exists in both parts of the game, equally, but in different forms.

I think you should practice what you preach, Jeydra.

Why make this a discussion on pve vs. pvp? It's pretty obvious which play mode won by the number of players - long ago. Pvpers feeling elite is just players of a dead play mode feeling threatened really.

i'll post sumthin and i'm quite sure its been said before. in PvP, alot of ppl are f'n A-holes straight up and down. i've done alot of RA to see that many folks have a bad idea about me Just because i have a crysta and a rare non-insc shield. they talk trash before the fight even gets going. like before timer ends. WTF, u don't know what i have, and if yur gunna judge me on my weaopns than F U. what do i have to believe different about HA players than RA. i preferably do RA just because o( and by o, i mean i) don't have( or want ) to invest into many hours if ppl are being bithces. -signed

Lol @ Elnino. I bet it comes from another one of those people who think they're good at PvE when they haven't real experience with high-end PvE, not to mention someone who doesn't know who I am or what I've achieved in both PvE and PvP.

I'm not going to feed the troll. Feel free to believe whatever you want to believe.

If this thread stays open for much longer I'll make a thread "Why you should PvE".

i think u should. btw, i dont think yur comment was directed at me, but i'm just making sure. seeing that u posted 1 minute after me, it would take a while to make a comment like that. sh*t, it just took me 2 minutes just to spell check my stuph. whatevers and whatnot i'm gunna grab that last beer. i heard its ftw...

Um... if you are trying to get new players into PvP, they start at default as "helpless sheep" .

Well, my first reaction after reading the first line in this thread was to skip it and go read something else here. But I decided to actually read it. There are many good comments and points of views, but to me the answer question is quite simple: Taste. It all depends on my situation in my life. What I want to do after I sit down in front of the PC and click the GW icon. I just want to relax and in that way yes casual play. I have been in a top100 guild long time ago and I have made enough money to be considered rich. Nowadays I don't feel any urge for competition while I play, I have competition enough elsewhere.
You might aswell make a thread titled "Why you should drink red wine" with initial statement about why red wine is for winners and white wine is for loosers. It won't move people who prefer white wine and dislike red wine.

If other people can be made to join pvp, fine, but it won't be me.

To all the PVE players: DON'T DO PVP, let the elitist players alone.

im actually not, though fresh player base willing to get good is welcomed.

i want the good ones back.

I think that the people towards whom this thread was originally directed were expecting a discussion that started to go deeper inside the matter of playing AB, or other forms of first-stepping PvP, you know, like what are precisely the possible playstyles in AB, what skills to bring that will teach something, how and when to use them etc...Some closer examination of the first hints given by the OP, something that who is trying to play AB, even at his first try, can directly put into practice.

Now, since this thread is clearly not addressing this issues, could please someone start a new thread discussing technical themes, such as the one i was referring to a few lines before?

And please, you should open it in Gladiator's, since it wouldn't be "generic discussion" but "PvP discussion"...i'm sure that the people really interested will find it out.

Thanks

This.

People motivated enough to start PvPing likely already did. People with enough desire of competition and strong will to improve likely already did, or are attempting it right now.

Solicitations usually tend to go unheard, as people who need to be solicited usually have already chosen their path and don't plan to change, while those interested can find out by themselves.

Borat is experienced in gvg. He just generally chose to not play the "honor" builds that everyone prides themselves on playing, instead opting to play gimmicks and farm people who refused to admit that balanced builds have sucked for quite some time now at the highest level. guild wars mid-2008 onwards, lol honor.

Also as someone who knows him in game/on vent, other than only through forums, hes far less arrogant and condescending than a lot of his posts might suggest.





Secondly:

I fixed ur post for you.

High End PvE = Copying build from Wiki then spamming 1,2,3,4 etc etc

Hard work that is.