Barrage Ranger

MelianCeleh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2009

Me/E

Hello,

I've been running a build like this lately. I would like to hear honest your opinions about the barrage/pet ranger to trigger MoP with splinter.

!NEW! Testing this build on the ranger atm: OgkjcpZsJSnSOGPGghybWY4a8a
(Also BiP on the team so no energy problems either.)



I'm not much of a build maker so the bp ranger build is probably kinda terrible and I really don't know if the ranger's worth it except in places with lots of huge mobs that can easily be balled up.

Criticism related to the other builds (which are mostly copypasted off pvx/forums) feel free to post it too!

EDIT: The last slot is kinda optional. I've been running without a mm lately tho.

AndrewSX

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

Umh let's see....

-I'd swap sig of creation for GolE, looks more reliable for compensate the 2 hexes (well, in this way becomes just the EFGjack's ST, but w/e...)
-Change patient too. heroes always use it followed by another heal (cause hp from it isn't immediate) leading generally to overhealing/energy waste. Sig of rejuv is a nice one, but not the only one. possible to invest some points in Prot too, if you want to use some stuff from there.

-You asked about Mop+Ranger. Well, my personal opinion is that Mop isn't THAT powerful in a human+7hero setup, mostly for balling/reliability of his dmg. Is too conditional.
Btw, if you want to stick with it (is still nice if lands enough times) i'd change the Ranger build from barrage+pet to a Volley(same thing, less range: but with splinter up doesn't matter much) + Bow attacks with Expert's dexetery as Elite (almost perma IAS and marks buff). Pet isn't worht it anyway, expecially for mop triggering.

-I'd ditch another copy of FB somewhere, and swap painful bond for bloodsong (not trust sos hero using properly).

Last but not least: looking the team at his whole... i'd use
a)2x Ranger, kicking Ele, using volley+splinter for dmg/mop trigger/adren machine, so a couple of para shouts fits very well. b) 2x Eles, and get rid of Splinter and mop c) trow in a Bip nec for e-management (you can drop a skill for ene on Mes and UA) and another hero of choice. just some imputs.

Quaker

Quaker

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Aug 2005

Canada

Brothers Disgruntled

I'd add Poison Tip Signet in place of one of the pet attacks and replace Lightning Reflexes with something else - maybe Whirling Defences or some spirit that's useful in the particular area (taking the points out of BM and putting them in WS), but I tend not to use pet attacks for damage. Instead I use pet attacks that do something like poison, interrupt, knock-down, etc, that don't require points in BM.

I find that an IAS (such as Lightning reflexes) isn't all that useful on a Hero because of the way they use their skills. They don't tend to use an IAS and then spam Barrage (or Volley) like a human would. Instead they use various skills and basically waste the IAS.
Personally my Ranger heroes use mostly an interrupt build based around Broad Head Arrow, Distracting Shot, and Disrupting Lunge (with Volley, Poison Tip Signet, a rez, and a pet, plus an optional skill such as a spirit or Whirling Defences) - or a Splinter/Barrage build (less often)

MelianCeleh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2009

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewSX View Post
Umh let's see....

-I'd swap sig of creation for GolE, looks more reliable for compensate the 2 hexes (well, in this way becomes just the EFGjack's ST, but w/e...)
-Change patient too. heroes always use it followed by another heal (cause hp from it isn't immediate) leading generally to overhealing/energy waste. Sig of rejuv is a nice one, but not the only one. possible to invest some points in Prot too, if you want to use some stuff from there.

-You asked about Mop+Ranger. Well, my personal opinion is that Mop isn't THAT powerful in a human+7hero setup, mostly for balling/reliability of his dmg. Is too conditional.
Btw, if you want to stick with it (is still nice if lands enough times) i'd change the Ranger build from barrage+pet to a Volley(same thing, less range: but with splinter up doesn't matter much) + Bow attacks with Expert's dexetery as Elite (almost perma IAS and marks buff). Pet isn't worht it anyway, expecially for mop triggering.

-I'd ditch another copy of FB somewhere, and swap painful bond for bloodsong (not trust sos hero using properly).

Last but not least: looking the team at his whole... i'd use
a)2x Ranger, kicking Ele, using volley+splinter for dmg/mop trigger/adren machine, so a couple of para shouts fits very well. b) 2x Eles, and get rid of Splinter and mop c) trow in a Bip nec for e-management (you can drop a skill for ene on Mes and UA) and another hero of choice. just some imputs.
Thanks for quick answer.
The ST is pretty much EFGJack's. (Atleast according to some topic) I've tested some other ST builds too but this one really outshined the other one as it can keep the shelter up alot more due to it having less spirits. I will change it to GoLE, didn't even think of it.

I've noticed heroes seem to use patient spirit at bad times so I guess it's a good idea to change it.

My main problem here is that I don't really know what else should I run instead of AP/MoP. I've been trying to figure out a good build for a necro but I've had no luck. I'd like to let the heroes handle the minions so that's out of question. That's why I'm trying to have atleast one hero triggering MoP alot. I did some testing and sometimes it basicly destroyed the whole group in like a second but if the foes weren't balled up nicely enough it was kinda useless.

I will try the Volley instead.

Also the ele usually runs second copy of FB, forgot to add it there.

I will try the build with the changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaker View Post
I'd add Poison Tip Signet in place of one of the pet attacks and replace Lightning Reflexes with something else - maybe Whirling Defences or some spirit that's useful in the particular area (taking the points out of BM and putting them in WS), but I tend not to use pet attacks for damage. Instead I use pet attacks that do something like poison, interrupt, knock-down, etc, that don't require points in BM.

I find that an IAS (such as Lightning reflexes) isn't all that useful on a Hero because of the way they use their skills. I wouldn't add any conditions other than dazed/blind as the mobs usually die way too quick for them to deal any damage.

MelianCeleh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2009

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewSX
View Post
Well, in Campfire there's a Nec section, take a look there. Even PvX could give you some ideas (but don't just copy/paste: isn't rare find crap there).

Btw, generally speaking, ignore Blood and focus on Curse, maybe Death for creating builds in pve. FoC is a option, SS a classic, OotU is the only way to use MM imo (the thrill of getting killed by sac for dmg.. aahhh.), some use FD (mes elite) on nec too (is good, but w/o FC i find it kinda slow...still good stuff, no ene worries). AP can be used not in combination of mop anyway. I wouldn't touch blood that's for sure. I've been trying to find a decent curses build but there seems to be no good (for a human player atleast) curse elite. SS is pretty terrible in my opinion. The damage isn't that great if my mesmers pretty much shut down the whole group and it also feels really slow. I don't know about FoC but it doesn't seem a very good skill for a human player. (Long recharge, not so huge damage afterall and small area)

Death magic on the other hand has too many skills that deal cold damage (especially the area of effect ones) so I haven't found a useful death magic build either. (Won't touch minions that's for sure )

I haven't tried any FD builds. Been thinking about trying one but I'm not sure if it's gonna be that useful either with the mesmers shutting everything down anyways.

AP can be used with something else but I can't think of anything else other than mop.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

I don't know what others have advised but:

1. Locust Fury sin is pro for triggering MoP!

2. Life is meh, Shelter is meh and barrage without Great Dwarf Weapon is meh. Invoke, also Meh. Illusion line is meh.

3.Instead of meh, try another dom hero (esurge) a Minion Bomber instead of invoke, SoGM rit or a nec with some resto stuff/curses. Also drop Life for Bloodsong (Painful Bond is nice with saoGM rit too)

4. Barrage is bad because you're focusing on getting optimal usage out of MoP, which is only on one foe; you gain no advantage to hitting all of them.

Maybe look at this: http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_Locustway

Premium Unleaded

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

MoP is a waste with only that ranger as the physical triggerer. I'd drop the last 3 for 3x volley or spear paras; 1 com, 2 motis.
Meele crappy hero AI says hi (oh, and those bars have pets also, which are even more stupid than a meele hero)

Quote: 2. Life is meh, Shelter is meh and barrage without Great Dwarf Weapon is meh. Invoke, also Meh. Illusion line is meh. Life isnt' optimal, but fill a slot and provides party heal. Invoke maybe is "meh" only when there are more then 3 mobs clumped (and when there's only one anyway), Illu is situational but works. Matter of opinion/needs is guess.

I can't see how you can call Shelther meh tbh tho. Expecially cause you're suggesting to go w/o any kind of prot. Which in HM (and looking at bars is what he's trying to do i guess) is nearly a suicide.

Quote:
3.Instead of meh, try another dom hero (esurge) a Minion Bomber instead of invoke, SoGM rit or a nec with some resto stuff/curses. Also drop Life for Bloodsong (Painful Bond is nice with saoGM rit too) I'm the first to say Invoke can be swapped.But dual Dom mes usually leads to overlapping and counteracting. Sogm rit isn't bad (even if not great...) but isn't worth losing the only prot source.

Quote:
4. Barrage is bad because you're focusing on getting optimal usage out of MoP, which is only on one foe; you gain no advantage to hitting all of them. Barrage (or volley) + splinter makes hitting mop target quite sure. Single target, even if theorically superior (your sins) isn't in the hands of AI.

MelianCeleh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2009

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
I don't know what others have advised but:

1. Locust Fury sin is pro for triggering MoP!

2. Life is meh, Shelter is meh and barrage without Great Dwarf Weapon is meh. Invoke, also Meh. Illusion line is meh.

3.Instead of meh, try another dom hero (esurge) a Minion Bomber instead of invoke, SoGM rit or a nec with some resto stuff/curses. Also drop Life for Bloodsong (Painful Bond is nice with saoGM rit too)

4. Barrage is bad because you're focusing on getting optimal usage out of MoP, which is only on one foe; you gain no advantage to hitting all of them.

Maybe look at this: http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_Locustway
Point of barrage is to trigger lots of splinter hits which will trigger MoP. It is quite a huge spike with both splinter and MoP. I like ill mesmer as it handles all the melee really well and even the casters do wand sometimes.

I don't like melee AI, they seem to do stupid stuff.

I like shelter, it provides really nice defense even if some ele boss managed to cast stuff like rodgort's.

The last slot is optional and I sometimes use a minion bomber.

I don't want a huge amount of spirits, the damage is really nice vs single target but if I constantly move they won't always be there. I was running 3x rit before and it was slower than 2x rit 2x me 2x ele + monk. I would only use 3x rit if facing dhuum etc. + There's no way I'm gonna drop ST rit for SoGM as like Andrew said it'd be pretty suicidal.

Invoke is not meh when using an AP caller. I find it rather nice as it helps kill the AP'd targets quickly. PLUS most of the time the groups are so small/not balled up that it wouldn't hit over 3 targets anyways so the limit is not a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded View Post
MoP is a waste with only that ranger as the physical triggerer. I'd drop the last 3 for 3x volley or spear paras; 1 com, 2 motis. One splinter won't be enough for 3x paras and also I don't think they'll drop AP'd targets that quickly.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

As you correctly pointed out, the point of Barrage is big splinters. I'd consider a 2nd splinter weapon as buffing your damage output more than any curses. Just get someone to 10 channeling and it's good.

itiscurtains

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

Agree with Lanier here - while melee heroes are idiots, they do have the wherewithal to shadowstep to a called target and to start wailing away on it. And really, with a dual-mes midline and an SoS + ST backline, you can pretty much fill in the rest of the party with whatever you'd like. Whenever I run my N/A, I usually include a couple of VoS Dervs in my retinue (although I have been testing out the LF sins lately).
But it doesn't really seem as though the op is looking to make a physway build. Personally, I'd drop the pet and make the Ranger into a P/R with Soldier's Fury, Volley and Command shouts. More utility, better IAS, less pet-related mishaps.

Wenspire

Wenspire

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2008

USA - W.Coast

HiME

Mo/

RE your ranger, you may want to bump his Expertise up a bit to help reduce EN use (unless that isn't a problem). Not sure what runes you are running but my hero usually manages to get 13 exp, 12 marks and 9-10 in BM.

May also want to toss out Savage Shot since you have a Mes dedicated to shutdown. If not, maybe replace it with Disrupting Shot since it a longer recharge. It would help with his EN management.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewSX
View Post
1.Meele crappy hero AI says hi (oh, and those bars have pets also, which are even more stupid than a meele hero)
2.Life isnt' optimal, but fill a slot and provides party heal. Invoke maybe is "meh" only when there are more then 3 mobs clumped (and when there's only one anyway), Illu is situational but works. Matter of opinion/needs is guess.
3.I can't see how you can call Shelther meh tbh tho. Expecially cause you're suggesting to go w/o any kind of prot. Which in HM (and looking at bars is what he's trying to do i guess) is nearly a suicide.
4.I'm the first to say Invoke can be swapped.But dual Dom mes usually leads to overlapping and counteracting. Sogm rit isn't bad (even if not great...) but isn't worth losing the only prot source.
5.Barrage (or volley) + splinter makes hitting mop target quite sure. Single target, even if theorically superior (your sins) isn't in the hands of AI. There really is nothing wrong with melee. Pets are meh and very unresponsive, though. Life is slow because the hero will use it on recharge and lag behind if your team is fast. You really don't need both Life and PwK.

Invoke is always meh. It's elemental damage. Armour ignoring damage is always better in HM; esurge or FoC. Nothing wrong with dual Dom mesmers; heroes don't overlap Mistrust and rupts, they chain them. SoGM rit just makes Painful Bond more worthwhile.

Just to be clear; I wasn't advocating a 0 prot team; all Minion Bombers have prot.

Barrage is fine; the player can run what he likes, but I would have taken Triple Shot and Dualshot for more concentrated MoP triggers.
p.s. I swear I wrote this before...

Premium Unleaded

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

The player is ap mop.

Slowpokeking

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2011

Anyone tried Barrage with Order of Pain+ Order of Vampire? It's also pretty amazing.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

OK. Barrage is not going to do a great job of triggering MoP. Only 1 arrow is going to hit the MoPed target, so you're basically getting triggers at bow speed. Bleh.

If you want to design a hero team around AP-MoP, I suggest you consider the following:

1. Yes, melee hero AI sucks, but you can work around it to some degree, and they are absolutely the best at pushing out physical packets. I run 2x VoS dervs when I want heroes for AP-MoP, since I find they pack the most punch on their own, in addition to kicking out lots of packets to trigger MoP. Higher Minion's whimsical LF sin will kick out more packets than anything, but it's virtually worthless whenever it's not getting boosted by MoP/Barbs/Orders/etc.

2. The other way to go is to put bows/spears on everything. Bows/spears do not do a great job of generating packets (the few multi-packet bow attacks are all crap b/c of their recharge (or being Forked Arrow)), but you can get a reasonable effect by having multiple people attacking. The ranged nature of bows/spears usually makes the response time faster than melee.

3. Minions. Even though they're not going to follow orders, a swarm of minions usually manages to hit whatever you want hit at least a few times. Since ST has become a more standard backline fixture, I've moved away from minion bombers and towards minion masters (as best the hero AI can manage it) in order to avoid burning out Shelter on Bone Minions.* As an added bonus to MoP/Barbs, Bone Fiends attack faster and at range.

(* Explanation: Set aside the monsters' AoE damage abilities for a minute. A single-target hit directed at a minion is a hit that's not getting directed at a party member, so the cost to Shelter is going to be the same as long as the hit would trigger Shelter in either case. Bone Minions burn out Shelter to the extent that things that wouldn't trigger Shelter if they hit a player would trigger Shelter if they hit a Bone Minion because their AL and max hp are so much lower. With Masochism bringing Death Magic to 18, Bone/Vamp Horrors and Fiends have warrior and caster grade armor, respectively, and hp that's almost on par with a player.)

Toraen

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2010

R/

The point of the bow is that Barrage when buffed with splinter will trigger MoP multiple times for a spike, much like VoS or HB with Whirlwind attack will generate multiple MoP triggers. The only reason you'd use a splinter barrage though, instead of a melee like VoS, HB, or Locust's, is that the hero doesn't need to position at all and will generally be targeted less due to it.
Quote:
Elite Enchantment Spell. Enchants all party members (5 seconds.) These party members steal 3...13...16 Health with each physical damage attack. Party members under another Necromancer enchantment are not affected. seeing that both are nec enchants....well u get the picture

Slowpokeking

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Essence Snow View Post
seeing that both are nec enchants....well u get the picture Oh ok, but even with 1 is good.

MelianCeleh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2009

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
OK. Barrage is not going to do a great job of triggering MoP. Only 1 arrow is going to hit the MoPed target, so you're basically getting triggers at bow speed. Bleh.

If you want to design a hero team around AP-MoP, I suggest you consider the following:

1. Yes, melee hero AI sucks, but you can work around it to some degree, and they are absolutely the best at pushing out physical packets. I run 2x VoS dervs when I want heroes for AP-MoP, since I find they pack the most punch on their own, in addition to kicking out lots of packets to trigger MoP. Higher Minion's whimsical LF sin will kick out more packets than anything, but it's virtually worthless whenever it's not getting boosted by MoP/Barbs/Orders/etc.

2. The other way to go is to put bows/spears on everything. Bows/spears do not do a great job of generating packets (the few multi-packet bow attacks are all crap b/c of their recharge (or being Forked Arrow)), but you can get a reasonable effect by having multiple people attacking. The ranged nature of bows/spears usually makes the response time faster than melee.

3. Minions. Even though they're not going to follow orders, a swarm of minions usually manages to hit whatever you want hit at least a few times. Since ST has become a more standard backline fixture, I've moved away from minion bombers and towards minion masters (as best the hero AI can manage it) in order to avoid burning out Shelter on Bone Minions.* As an added bonus to MoP/Barbs, Bone Fiends attack faster and at range.

(* Explanation: Set aside the monsters' AoE damage abilities for a minute. A single-target hit directed at a minion is a hit that's not getting directed at a party member, so the cost to Shelter is going to be the same as long as the hit would trigger Shelter in either case. Bone Minions burn out Shelter to the extent that things that wouldn't trigger Shelter if they hit a player would trigger Shelter if they hit a Bone Minion because their AL and max hp are so much lower. With Masochism bringing Death Magic to 18, Bone/Vamp Horrors and Fiends have warrior and caster grade armor, respectively, and hp that's almost on par with a player.) The point is to trigger MoP with splinter. At the moment the ranger is running Volley to trigger it + single target skills to drop the AP'd foes quickly. (Volley hits 3 targets. 3*53 + 3*42 = 285 damage with "one" skill that is pretty spammable.

The minions are usually slightly behind and when I need shelter which is in the beginning of the fight the minions are not usually there to eat my shelter. Shelter provides protection if any foe manages to get anything off in the beginning and the minions will tank most of the damage after that. I will try MM (not a bomber) but I'm not sure how well it's gonna perform without AotL. (Need BiP)

AndrewSX

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

Let's put this way:
If those where a 3/4 human party, it would work pretty good. Like a manly spike, actually.
Splinter on physi dealers, a baller, a mop caller etc.

But cause you're using a 1 player + 7 heroes party (and the player is the mop) you HAVE to do some compromises. And generally speaking those depends mostly on preference of the player, so there isn't a RIGTH teambuild, but lots of variants for it.

Change te physi dealers, 2x dom or dom+illu, ER vs. ST, 2x rangers or eles, 3x paras, you get the point.
My first post (second int thread) was trying to give advices on improving the teambuild w/o changing the team in composition too much for that reason: there are tons of ways to abuse of mop/splinter/physi dmg. Too much ways.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Here is an old screenshot of an experimental MoP necro using 3-heroes:



You want faster attacks, not barrage, and if you use minions, fiends would work better.

Slowpokeking

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2011

So nobody likes OoP or OoV?

AndrewSX

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

Unless using at least 3x physicals, i don't see any reason. Well, you're going to take only 1 of those 2 anyway, but to help a single ranger doesn't make sense.
It is when you have 7 casters.

Anyways I don't know if it's fast but I did Raisu Palace in 10:01. I haven't completed it too many times so I'm sure I could get maybe a minute off it or so. Maybe more, no idea really. Don't really know what could I skip etc.

I was running a slightly modified build of the one on first page. The MoP+Splinter sometimes took whole mobs down really quickly. Going to do some more testing + build modifying :]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Here is an old screenshot of an experimental MoP necro using 3-heroes:

You want faster attacks, not barrage, and if you use minions, fiends would work better. I don't need faster attacks, they make the group run around and it won't do much. A single spike from Volley ranger with splinter from Rit & MoP on the target will do a lot of damage. That plus all the other heroes is enough to take them down quickly.