Hm changes discuss...
spun ducky
Hard Mode - Reduce armor level for Hard Mode enemies by 3 and raise maximum health by 20 for each level above 20.
Swingline
...and where do you get your info?
Axel Zinfandel
Gonna need a little bit more info/proof than that, bro
HigherMinion
I think he wants to suggest to Anet what they can implement; but it's probably already been sorted. So, what?
aspi
20 health for each lvl above 20 seems a bit low to be honest.
But let's just wait untill they release it. I hope this thursday
But let's just wait untill they release it. I hope this thursday
Coast
low?lol? if they are 8 lvls higher thats a 160hp diff, and u call this low????
I want to smoke what ur smoking
I want to smoke what ur smoking
enter_the_zone
160HP from lvl 20 to lvl28 is more than a little low, actually. 2 hits from PI should not be ending a mobs HM advantage.
Swingline
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Originally Posted by enter_the_zone
160HP from lvl 20 to lvl28 is more than a little low, actually. 2 hits from PI should not be ending a mobs HM advantage.
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Jeydra
Assuming this is the HM update ...
Automatic Cracked Armour on targets doesn't seem too hot for player Elementalists, even considering another -20 armour from real Cracked Armour. Especially since YMLAD, FH and EBVAS are all so strong (although PI sucks). With heroes though, there might be a difference.
All this is first looks, before taking into consideration the elite skill update, and before actually having played with the update.
Automatic Cracked Armour on targets doesn't seem too hot for player Elementalists, even considering another -20 armour from real Cracked Armour. Especially since YMLAD, FH and EBVAS are all so strong (although PI sucks). With heroes though, there might be a difference.
All this is first looks, before taking into consideration the elite skill update, and before actually having played with the update.
Spiritz
Personally i dont see a need to change armor/hp for foes in hm.
We have to consider that not every players has an uber mighty kick ass build or heros and making adjustments may seem nice to new hm players it would just make hm even easier for players used to hm.
Hm is meant to be hard - what next ? make an easy mode for those who have probs in nm ?
So what if foe is lvl 28 and we are lvl 20 - if we had access to level 30 we`d go thru same armor/hp scaling as foes.
Also it would mean that sc players would get an easy time and make all sc runs possibly quicker and we all know what happens with anet and sc - they try and nerf skills / buff or add foes which inturn affects not only the sc ppl but all non sc ppl.
Hopefully GW2 will be out soon and how are same ppl going to cope there i wonder.
We have to consider that not every players has an uber mighty kick ass build or heros and making adjustments may seem nice to new hm players it would just make hm even easier for players used to hm.
Hm is meant to be hard - what next ? make an easy mode for those who have probs in nm ?
So what if foe is lvl 28 and we are lvl 20 - if we had access to level 30 we`d go thru same armor/hp scaling as foes.
Also it would mean that sc players would get an easy time and make all sc runs possibly quicker and we all know what happens with anet and sc - they try and nerf skills / buff or add foes which inturn affects not only the sc ppl but all non sc ppl.
Hopefully GW2 will be out soon and how are same ppl going to cope there i wonder.
Jeydra
^This change to HM is supposed to make armour-sensitve damage more appealing and armour-ignoring damage less so, not make HM easier (it's easy enough already).
spun ducky
This is the proposed change got to love test krewe leaks. I figure rather than a select few get the info the mass should know as well.
Reformed
Curious what they plan to do about HM UW which was already tweaked once. Numbers provided here seem like a perfectly reasonable adjustment to me.
Edit: Mobs will probably have a 60AR absolute minimum due to reduction so you don't wind up with 53AR HM Margonite Anur Ki's (for example). It's basically perma cracked armor, not a huge deal at all.
Edit: Mobs will probably have a 60AR absolute minimum due to reduction so you don't wind up with 53AR HM Margonite Anur Ki's (for example). It's basically perma cracked armor, not a huge deal at all.
Daesu
Reducing 3 armor per level is too high that would make the game too easy considering that it stacks with cracked armor.
DiogoSilva
How much armor do the HM mobs get per level currently? 3 or more? Will this update keep them with the same armor as level 20 foes, or will they continue to have higher armor than normal?
PvX player/ hero builds (which is what most people use or base of) are dominated by armor-ignoring damage skills, and for a reason. The point of this change is to balance the power between professions, because the current HM discriminates some over the others.
This is not going to make HM easier. If anything, it'll make it (slightly) harder, because the loss of armor will not be very relevant to those builds, the new arising armor-sensitive builds will probably be on equal level as of the current builds, and the increase in health will make all the foes last longer, regardless of build.
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| Hm is meant to be hard - what next ? make an easy mode for those who have probs in nm ? |
This is not going to make HM easier. If anything, it'll make it (slightly) harder, because the loss of armor will not be very relevant to those builds, the new arising armor-sensitive builds will probably be on equal level as of the current builds, and the increase in health will make all the foes last longer, regardless of build.
StormDragonZ
So why are these changes being made to Hard Mode again? Did people complain that they needed to put MORE TIME into their vanquishes and/or farming regimen?
I'm sorry, I'm just a little confused.
I'm sorry, I'm just a little confused.
Mireles
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Originally Posted by StormDragonZ
So why are these changes being made to Hard Mode again? Did people complain that they needed to put MORE TIME into their vanquishes and/or farming regimen?
I'm sorry, I'm just a little confused. |
DiogoSilva
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Originally Posted by StormDragonZ
So why are these changes being made to Hard Mode again? Did people complain that they needed to put MORE TIME into their vanquishes and/or farming regimen?
I'm sorry, I'm just a little confused. |
Those two changes should diversify the hero meta builds, so that finally it isn't all about mesmers, mesmers, mesmers, ritualists, ritualists, necromancers, necromancers and a RoJ monk.
StormDragonZ
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Originally Posted by DiogoSilva
Currently the game is dominated by armor-ignoring damage, and HM discriminates some professions over others because of that. This update will help balance things out, which will be especially relevant to the elementalists as they rely the most on armor-sensitive damage; and then an upcomming melee AI update in the near future will also help the melee heros, which have terrible AI.
Those two changes should diversify the hero meta builds, so that finally it isn't all about mesmers, mesmers, mesmers, ritualists, ritualists, necromancers, necromancers and a RoJ monk. |
Also, I've been using a Dervish hero in my vanquishes for the past month or so. Unlike most people, I make my builds work to my style of play, not what everyone considers the best. After all, you control the heroes. Don't let them control you.
DiogoSilva
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Originally Posted by StormDragonZ
So the best way to get this discrimination worked out is to make HM slightly more difficult so Elementalists and melee folks don't feel left out? My confusion is getting uglier.
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And honestly, 150-200 more HP won't make the battles much boring. I was afraid they would, like, double the HP of foes or something, and make most battles a chore. As it is, two extra energy surges/ Invoke Lightning/ whatever AoE spike do the work.
Ya, farming builds will suffer, but it is fair that my elementalist (which is my main) can be on the same ground as other professions, and not stuck to gimmicks.
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| Also, I've been using a Dervish hero in my vanquishes for the past month or so. Unlike most people, I make my builds work to my style of play, not what everyone considers the best. After all, you control the heroes. Don't let them control you. |
Yawgmoth
Good to know the numbers finally, without them there wasn't much point discussing the impact of this update.
So this is BIG.
Lots and lots of currently used (and overused) builds are heavily or often strictly based on armor ignoring damage. This update can make them just inferior to other possibilities, as tons of other regular damage sources will be now more efficient at killing. In effect we will see most of old builds replaced by something new.
Lets hope for a large variety of viable choices.
Aside, I wonder if a SoS rit will be still be able to solo vanquish most areas.
So this is BIG.
Lots and lots of currently used (and overused) builds are heavily or often strictly based on armor ignoring damage. This update can make them just inferior to other possibilities, as tons of other regular damage sources will be now more efficient at killing. In effect we will see most of old builds replaced by something new.
Lets hope for a large variety of viable choices.
Aside, I wonder if a SoS rit will be still be able to solo vanquish most areas.
DiogoSilva
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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth
Aside, I wonder if a SoS rit will be still be able to solo vanquish most areas.
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Legendary Elementalist
I'm a bit confused - will the armor be reduced by 3 for each level above 20 or for every level or by 3 for each level with a min. 60 al? If it's the first case then they will make it even worse for eles - 24lvl foes will have -12 AR which is only a few % and 80hp more... I hoped they would make it the way that foes on hm have 60-80 AL and their hp is increased by 200... So yea, probly it will change nothing, bad job anet... It won't make eles a viable dps class and it won't hurt armor ignoring dmg that much neither...
The option with AL being set to max 80 and hp +200 would fix everything, ele dps would be good, armor ignoring dmg wouldn't be overpowered and buffed daggers spammer wouldn't destroy all in 3 seconds....
The option with AL being set to max 80 and hp +200 would fix everything, ele dps would be good, armor ignoring dmg wouldn't be overpowered and buffed daggers spammer wouldn't destroy all in 3 seconds....
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by StormDragonZ
So the best way to get this discrimination worked out is to make HM slightly more difficult so Elementalists and melee folks don't feel left out? My confusion is getting uglier.
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If done right, the change should basically be an across-the-board nerf to armor-ignoring damage while leaving it the same for eles and other armor-respecting builds. Considering how easy it's gotten to roll through HM with 7 heroes, all of whom have builds based on ignoring armor, I can't see why you're confused here. It's a nerf targeted directly at the power creep that armor-ignoring damage has seen in the past few years, it's much-needed and has been asked for for, literally, years.
Jenn
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
Eh, the idea is to make HM harder for armor-ignoring damage users (mesmers, ritualists, necros, buffed assassins and other physicals) and easier for armor-respecting damage (eles, non-spirit rit damage, base damage of rangers/pets and other physicals). Notice how all of the first category are used extensively for damage in PvE, and none of the second category are.
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ANet is simply recognizing that certain classes, like the Elementalist, have become obsolete in their traditionally designed roles (I'm not talking about healing eles, guys). I think it's a great change to the game because it makes certain classes more viable than they have been lately in hard mode. I remember going through hard mode on my ele and if my intent was to do damage, I might as well pack up and go home. Other classes were far more proficient at doing damage in hard mode despite the class description of the Ele.
WarcryOfTruth
I hope this isn't credible. It seems almost nothing. I had the understanding that the update would reduce HM armor to NM levels, and increase HP significantly. Before I believe that post, I want to see some proof =/
Why?
i'd love if they could make some simple change like this and make all classes viable again in HM.
Especially if they could make hero ai work well with physical stuff. Although they would have to work hard to make that not invincible. Even now physical damage heroes do really well.
Especially if they could make hero ai work well with physical stuff. Although they would have to work hard to make that not invincible. Even now physical damage heroes do really well.
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Jenn
ANet is simply recognizing that certain classes, like the Elementalist, have become obsolete in their traditionally designed roles (I'm not talking about healing eles, guys). I think it's a great change to the game because it makes certain classes more viable than they have been lately in hard mode. I remember going through hard mode on my ele and if my intent was to do damage, I might as well pack up and go home. Other classes were far more proficient at doing damage in hard mode despite the class description of the Ele. |
As for the HM changes, I expect it to be tougher for ALL professions because of the numerous complaints from speed clearing, cons-addicted, players that HM has become too easy. Since I am tired of all these brags, I sincerely wish that ANet would make HM much harder than it is today. Bring back the fear of HM into the hearts of players and destroy SC/farm for all I care! 1-hit kills FTW!
Why?
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Originally Posted by Daesu
As someone with all 10 character classes and 20 characters, eles are hardly the weakest profession in HM today. So I disagree that Eles are obsolete and I am sure there are lots of GWAMM and legendary VQer eles in this game.
As for the HM changes, I expect it to be tougher for ALL professions because of the numerous complaints from speed clearing, cons-addicted, players that HM has become too easy. Since I am tired of all these brags, I sincerely wish that ANet would make HM much harder than it is today. Bring back the fear of HM into the hearts of players and destroy SC/farm for all I care! 1-hit kills FTW! |
In my mind hard mode is pretty darn good, but i would love if all the classes were about the same effectiveness. While I've done Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion HM with only heroes, it is not something I really want to do again. And the elite areas still all need dedicated teams of players for anyone but the most hard core to finish.
The real problem is that the mold of 2 necro/2 mesmer/ 2 rit and 2 of anything else has been set. It is going to take a good hard smack to change that line of thinking. But at least most people have stopped running Discord or Sabway full time.
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by Daesu
As someone with all 10 character classes and 20 characters, eles are hardly the weakest profession in HM today. So I disagree that Eles are obsolete and I am sure there are lots of GWAMM and legendary VQer eles in this game.
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Daesu
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Originally Posted by Why?
anyone should realize those braggarts are doing hm with team gimmick builds and have never even tried to do hm with all heroes.
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In my mind hard mode is pretty darn good, but i would love if all the classes were about the same effectiveness. While I've done Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion HM with only heroes, it is not something I really want to do again. And the elite areas still all need dedicated teams of players for anyone but the most hard core to finish. The real problem is that the mold of 2 necro/2 mesmer/ 2 rit and 2 of anything else has been set. It is going to take a good hard smack to change that line of thinking. But at least most people have stopped running Discord or Sabway full time. |
Similarly eles shouldn't be just about damage because every classes in GW have to be able to dish out their own damage and ANet has to balance out those damage numbers to keep the classes balanced. Eles have to find their own roles or niche then they can really be the best at something useful for the team and yet not be overpowered relative to the other classes.
SongOf
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Originally Posted by spun ducky
This is the proposed change got to love test krewe leaks.
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If this is indeed leaked Test Krewe information, then the thread should be deleted. You are not doing anyone a favor by supporting breaches of NDAs.
Axel Zinfandel
Where the heck to people stumble upon these 'leaks' anyway? lol
davehall
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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel
Where the heck to people stumble upon these 'leaks' anyway? lol
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zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Daesu
You are right, but a lot of people rely on cons to play this game. On Sunday, I took 2 of my new characters through Eternal Grove HM Zaishen mission PUGs and guess what? They actually used Armor of Salvation and Essence of Celerity for a such an easy mission! These are probably the same guys who come back here to complain that HM is too easy, duh.
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Legendary Elementalist
No one has answered my previous question, but well, if it's the way they said it will make ele dmg on hard more even worse!
Imagine: lvl 26 monster has now 120 AL, and after the update it will have 102 AL and + 120hp! Ele dmg will still be almost nothing, and that hp increase will hurt ele even more, bad job anet... Yes, you can always take cracked armour but hey, it's only adjancet so it's not a big deal, and that update was supposed to fix ele dmg... Anet, seriously?
Anf for cases like lvl 23 monster with 110AL and 300hp these days, the change to 101 AL and 360 HP means nothing... If for low lvl foes it doesn't make eles even worse, it certainly won't make them any better...
Well, I hope they will rebalance that like casters have 60 Al, adventurers have 70AL melees have 80AL vs elemental and hp will be increased for 30-40 per level, that would do the job... Ele dmg would be viable and all that armor ignoring builds wouldn't pwn them all in 3 secs... Also hm should get a little harder with such kind of a update i guess.
Imagine: lvl 26 monster has now 120 AL, and after the update it will have 102 AL and + 120hp! Ele dmg will still be almost nothing, and that hp increase will hurt ele even more, bad job anet... Yes, you can always take cracked armour but hey, it's only adjancet so it's not a big deal, and that update was supposed to fix ele dmg... Anet, seriously?
Anf for cases like lvl 23 monster with 110AL and 300hp these days, the change to 101 AL and 360 HP means nothing... If for low lvl foes it doesn't make eles even worse, it certainly won't make them any better...
Well, I hope they will rebalance that like casters have 60 Al, adventurers have 70AL melees have 80AL vs elemental and hp will be increased for 30-40 per level, that would do the job... Ele dmg would be viable and all that armor ignoring builds wouldn't pwn them all in 3 secs... Also hm should get a little harder with such kind of a update i guess.
Jeydra
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Originally Posted by Why?
anyone should realize those braggarts are doing hm with team gimmick builds and have never even tried to do hm with all heroes.
In my mind hard mode is pretty darn good, but i would love if all the classes were about the same effectiveness. While I've done Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion HM with only heroes, it is not something I really want to do again. And the elite areas still all need dedicated teams of players for anyone but the most hard core to finish. The real problem is that the mold of 2 necro/2 mesmer/ 2 rit and 2 of anything else has been set. It is going to take a good hard smack to change that line of thinking. But at least most people have stopped running Discord or Sabway full time. |
There are a few tough areas out there with 7H (DoA HM, UW HM), but I find most of the game is too easy.
@above - that's 18 armour + 20 from Cracked Armour or almost 40. -40 armour doubles your unboosted damage. Are you really claiming that's not significant?
Legendary Elementalist
Well yes, but a good nuker is nearby nuker (SH, SF, UG or Rodgort or whatever) and you can easily spread cracked armour only for adjanced range, and adjanced range isn't what nukers have been made for... Yes, it works with good balls, but for most cases nearby is the only way to go.
EDIT:
Adjanced death blossom + splinter spammer >>> adjanced ele nuker with doubled dmg all the way.
Keep in mind that mobs kite from ele aoes and deep freeze isn't maintanable.
EDIT:
Adjanced death blossom + splinter spammer >>> adjanced ele nuker with doubled dmg all the way.
Keep in mind that mobs kite from ele aoes and deep freeze isn't maintanable.
DiogoSilva
At least eles will have better ways to apply cracked armor now; I can see some dual combos with one nuker and one with a cracked armor elite. Thunderclap might only be adjacent, but seems to be a good skill nonetheless; Shockwave is risky, but it might be a good alternative.
The problem is, when it comes to support, elementalists are lacking as well. Or better yet, they are decent, but their support skills also rely on epic damage, which simply isn't there.
Why do you think most of the upcomming update aknowledges that they already are powerhouses (when the armor is right, aka for NM) with SF/ SH, and focus instead on improving the support of their other elites, or create new mechanics that rely on interaction with party members?
After this update, eles should be stronger as damage dealers, but we don't know by how much, and should be stronger in support, so the players can effectively do what you suggested them to do.
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| Similarly eles shouldn't be just about damage because every classes in GW have to be able to dish out their own damage and ANet has to balance out those damage numbers to keep the classes balanced. Eles have to find their own roles or niche then they can really be the best at something useful for the team and yet not be overpowered relative to the other classes. |
Why do you think most of the upcomming update aknowledges that they already are powerhouses (when the armor is right, aka for NM) with SF/ SH, and focus instead on improving the support of their other elites, or create new mechanics that rely on interaction with party members?
After this update, eles should be stronger as damage dealers, but we don't know by how much, and should be stronger in support, so the players can effectively do what you suggested them to do.
Jeydra
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Originally Posted by Legendary Elementalist
Well yes, but a good nuker is nearby nuker (SH, SF, UG or Rodgort or whatever) and you can easily spread cracked armour only for adjanced range, and adjanced range isn't what nukers have been made for... Yes, it works with good balls, but for most cases nearby is the only way to go.
EDIT: Adjanced death blossom + splinter spammer >>> adjanced ele nuker with doubled dmg all the way. Keep in mind that mobs kite from ele aoes and deep freeze isn't maintanable. |
There's no doubting that this is a significant buff to Elementalist damage. Whether or not it's enough, though, that is another question.
@above - Elementalists are actually the best healers in the game. If you're thinking of "support" as stuff like Unsteady Ground and Blinding Flash, then by far the bigger issue is that it's better to overload damage over these skills. After all, why use Blinding Flash if you don't need it to stay alive?